338 choice

[Bluejazz]

The 338 Norma has been out for awhile now, and I would like to get some feedback on the velocities for this caliber, and is anyone running it in a 28" barrel or is everyone using 26".
It runs at the same pressures as the 338 EDGE, but not the same case capacity, so I don't know if velocities would be similar or not. I do know the Norma brass is much better than Remington, as I use it for my 30cal. I would like to put together a 338, but not sure which one.
My choices are: 338 EDGE, 338 Lapua, 338 Norma
I think the EDGE has the velocity advantage, but not a fan of the brass. The 338 Norma and Lapua probably give up 50-100fps to the EDGE in a 30" barrel, but maybe not so much in a 26-28" barrel, and have better brass.
So, I am asking for feedback from the HIDE on which caliber you all prefer and why. Or maybe there is just not that much difference between them, let me know.

 

[desertHK]

Re: 338 choice

338 LM wins my vote.

 

[esromvre]

Re: 338 choice

+1 on the LM

 

[pc3]

Re: 338 choice

I am having a .338 Norma Built and it will have a 30" barrel so I will also be interested to see what kinds of speeds I will be able to get.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: 338 choice

i think the 338 norma mag is going to be like the remington short ultra mags they are dead first in usally wins. i would go 338 lm

 

[The Animal]

Re: 338 choice

338 Norma; 2805 fps w/ 300 gr SMK 27" tube. Building a second one (light weight version - 10 lbs) for a Spring Bear Hunt in Alaska. Downed a Moose in Canada last month with it @ 525 yards. Excellent accuracy, excellent performance.

 

[ganyana]

Re: 338 choice

BlueJazz- Depends what you want it for and depends on the action. The .338 Norma was designed to fit in a rem 700 action or an AI magazine and allow the use of 300grn bullets. It was also designed to meet a requirement for optimal performance from a 26" barrel.

IF you are a pure target shooter and the rifle permits the use of a longer cartridge the .338 Lapua will beat the Norma every time (bigger case capacity)- at a slight increase in recoil of course. The longer the barrel the more advantage the .338LM gains over the Norma- theoretically. In actual practice I have found that in a 30" barrel the Norma is still 50fps behind the LM - same as it is from a 26" Barrel...but I don't have access to all the powders available in the USA And also the two test actions I have do not permit making absolute best use of the LM case with 300grn Bullets.

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: 338 choice

Dr Don,
This will be a LR hunting rifle and practice rifle , so what I am thinking is that maybe 100fps loss to the EDGE and Lapua for the advantage of having a 26" barrel has my interest. After running some #'s the Norma only gives up 2.6" of wind drift at 1000yards for the loss of that 100fps. More dial up is not an issue, as I will use a rangefinder at those distances. Beyond 1000yards it gives up alittle more wind drift, but I won't be shooting at those distances at game in the near future anyway. I know the Norma brass is proving to be excellent in my 30cal version, so the brass advantage goes to the Norma and Lapua over the EDGE. I would like to here from anyone using Retumbo in there 338 Norma and is anyone running the Norma with a 28" barrel.
Thanks for all the responses so for, keep it coming.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 338 choice

it realy makes no difference if loaded to the same pressure but what action do you have to fit it in? if you have a standard rem Magnum action the Edge hands down you can get Nosler, Hornady, fedrel and rem Brass i am using rem brass and it is realy tough just batch it and it is awsome. then fit a longer mag box and go for it. But if you are buying a new action then any of the above are a good choice if you want to use factory the Lapua if you are in a place where military calibres might become an issue then the Norma or edge, either way fit a seekins detachable mag box or Wyatts extenden box and take your pic they will all do the same thing.

 

[wadcutter]

Re: 338 choice

It all depends if you want to load from the magazine or not. Plus if you are fixed on a 26" tube or not.

I run a .338 Edge with a long throated 30" barrel, single load with Rem brass and have no problem getting over 2900 fps with the 300gn SMK and a gut full of H1000. Rem brass is OK.

So make the difference 200 fps and run the numbers. If you are happy with the answer then just take your pick.

Oh yeah, what about the good old .338 Rem Ultra Mag?

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: 338 choice

Wadcutter,
What brand of barrel do you have, and how many reloads do you get at 2900fps. Have not heard of getting 2900 out of a 30" in the EDGE. Most I have read are getting 2830-2850fps.

 

[pc3]

Re: 338 choice

What speeds can one expect in .338 norma using 300 gr SMK;

with 28" 29" or 30" Barrel

I am considering going shorter than 30" against my smiths wishes

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: 338 choice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bluejazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wadcutter,
What brand of barrel do you have, and how many reloads do you get at 2900fps. Have not heard of getting 2900 out of a 30" in the EDGE. Most I have read are getting 2830-2850fps. </div></div>

Since he's running single shot with a long throat, he can cram more powder in the case without pressure signs. I'm having an edge built around the seekins DBM system. The barrel will be throated for 300 SMK's loaded at 3.900". I don't think i'll be able to get 2900 but I can't wait to see what I do get.

 

[Mag 300]

Re: 338 choice

second this

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">338 LM wins my vote. </div></div>

 

[TEAMSENDIT]

Re: 338 choice

I vote 338 edge or just 338 ultra mag either will work but I prefer the edge with 300rum nosler brass. I love mine and plan on taking it long range elk hunting next year.

no matter what it is going to be fun and you will love it.

if you are concerned about resale I would go 338lm because they make factory ammo for it.

My real vote is for the unlisted caliber of 338 snipe tac which is the 408 cheytac necked down to 338 and they shoot the 300gr smk over 3200fps

 

[zenbiker]

Re: 338 choice

The differences between the EDGE and the LM at 1000 yards are going to be negligible; at least it would be for me. I can't dope the wind difference between the two cartridges, and my heartbeat is at least 1/4 moa. I am not a fan of rebated rim cartridges, especially in Remington actions owing to the increased bolt thrust. I'd have to recommend the Lapua unless you were going to use a custom action, in which case, you can't lose with either one.

 

[HiCapMag]

Re: 338 choice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FK300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">338 Norma; 2805 fps w/ 300 gr SMK 27" tube. Building a second one (light weight version - 10 lbs) for a Spring Bear Hunt in Alaska. Downed a Moose in Canada last month with it @ 525 yards. Excellent accuracy, excellent performance. </div></div>

I am getting about the same velocity with a 28 inch tube and 92 grains of Ramshot Magnum. Actually went about 2825 at 92.5 grains, and probably could go a little hotter, but I don't care to try. I talked to Mr. Sloan about barrel length, and the Norma is optimized for a 26 inch barrel as another has said. If you want a hunting ring, you would do well with the Norma and the shorter barrel.

Good luck.

 

[acloco]

Re: 338 choice

I built a 338 RUM on a Savage Target action for my shooting buddy. 32" Rock Creek barrel provides 2950+ with 300 gr SMK's.

 

[Strangedays]

Re: 338 choice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diggler44</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I vote 338 edge or just 338 ultra mag either will work but I prefer the edge with 300rum nosler brass. I love mine and plan on taking it long range elk hunting next year.

no matter what it is going to be fun and you will love it.

if you are concerned about resale I would go 338lm because they make factory ammo for it.

My real vote is for the unlisted caliber of 338 snipe tac which is the 408 cheytac necked down to 338 and they shoot the 300gr smk over 3200fps </div></div>
I like the Edge also but if you wanted to take it over seas you can find some issues due to the gun not showing the same caliber as the bullets head stamp.

 

[The Animal]

Re: 338 choice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HiCapMag</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FK300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">338 Norma; 2805 fps w/ 300 gr SMK 27" tube. Building a second one (light weight version - 10 lbs) for a Spring Bear Hunt in Alaska. Downed a Moose in Canada last month with it @ 525 yards. Excellent accuracy, excellent performance. </div></div>

I am getting about the same velocity with a 28 inch tube and 92 grains of Ramshot Magnum. Actually went about 2825 at 92.5 grains, and probably could go a little hotter, but I don't care to try. I talked to Mr. Sloan about barrel length, and the Norma is optimized for a 26 inch barrel as another has said. If you want a hunting ring, you would do well with the Norma and the shorter barrel.

Good luck. </div></div>

Hello HiCapMag,

We spoke on another thread...you and I run the exact same velocities for powder charges. I backed mine down to 91.5gr of RSM.
I consulted with Mr. Sloan on the build in a light weight 338 NM configuration. The barrel (rem var contour) should be here at the end of the week.

One evening after work I'll be at the lathe and have it chambered and cut for 26"....only problem is waiting for the Carbon Fiber A-3 stock from McMillian, could be another month +/-.

 

[wadcutter]

Re: 338 choice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bluejazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wadcutter,
What brand of barrel do you have, and how many reloads do you get at 2900fps. Have not heard of getting 2900 out of a 30" in the EDGE. Most I have read are getting 2830-2850fps. </div></div>

The barrel is a Lilja, (I hope)

I can load 97 grains of H1000 and the primers are just showing signs of flattening. With 98 grains I get 2950 fps. My average overall cartridge length loaded with a 300 grain SMK is 3.922". I single load at this length.

I do not run my rifle at this velocity as I am more interested in accuraty than velocity. However if I wanted a good Buffalo load it would be fine.

Although I can get these velocities, accuracy is not there. I have to load below 95 grains to get good accuracy. Best accuracy is with a cool barrel and 92 to 94 grains and a velocity of about 2840 - 2870 fps depending on the charge.

 

[Down Under Hunter]

Re: 338 choice

Wadcutter,

Are those EDGES any good on big game ??

DUH

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: 338 choice

FK300, thanks for posting your velocities with a 27" barrel.
I have heard that RSM is a dirty burning powder, is anyone finding that to be the case ?
And still have not gotten any feedback on Retumbo. It seems that Retumbo would be a better powder for the 338 Norma than RSM, at least until Vit N570 comes out. Is anyone using Retumbo in there 338 Norma.
I think a 338 Norma w/26" light palma contour oversized by .030, ADL blind mag, is in my near future. Should come in at about 9-9 1/2 #. Throw a Nightforce on it and have a 12# LR rig capable of shooting the 300gr SMK at 2700+.

 

[kd185]

Re: 338 choice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diggler44</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My real vote is for the unlisted caliber of 338 snipe tac which is the 408 cheytac necked down to 338 and they shoot the 300gr smk over 3200fps </div></div>

sounds like a barrel burner to me
anyone know how many rounds these barrels are good for ?

 

[R37]

Re: 338 choice

How does it compare to the 338 Lapua

 

[Mag 300]

Re: 338 choice

338 Lapua !!!!!!

 

[selfbowhunter]

Re: 338 choice

1ZNUF, i think you may be wrong in this statement:"I am not a fan of rebated rim cartridges, especially in Remington actions owing to the increased bolt thrust. I'd have to recommend the Lapua unless you were going to use a custom action, in which case, you can't lose with either one."

a believe a smaller boltface at the same pressure would have less bolt thrust since pressure is measured in lbs per square inch and the smaller boltface has less surface area for the pressure to act upon.

chuck

 

[runngun]

Re: 338 choice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1ZNUF, i think you may be wrong in this statement:"I am not a fan of rebated rim cartridges, especially in Remington actions owing to the increased bolt thrust. I'd have to recommend the Lapua unless you were going to use a custom action, in which case, you can't lose with either one."

a believe a smaller boltface at the same pressure would have less bolt thrust since pressure is measured in lbs per square inch and the smaller boltface has less surface area for the pressure to act upon.

chuck
</div></div>

Force is pressure times area.

The rearward force is the pressure from combustion times the area of the cartridge head. This is the same force applied to the bolt.

With a rebated rim, this force is applied to an area smaller than the cartridge head, and therefore the pressure on the bolt is higher.

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: 338 choice

Any feedback with Retumbo ?

 

[wadcutter]

Re: 338 choice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DOWN UNDER HUNTE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wadcutter,

Are those EDGES any good on big game ??

DUH </div></div>
Mate,
Mine is in bits at the moment, should be OK when I get it sorted.
I've seen a few happy snaps of game taken with yours though.
I think it should do the trick.
Hard to beat at long range. See Shawn Carlock's mate shot a deer at over 1900 yards with one.

 

[81mike]

Re: 338 choice

How does Weatherby's 338-378 rate amongst the member's of this forum?

 

[BHP9]

Re: 338 choice

.338LM.

You can't go to the store and get Edge ammo nor the 'other' exotics (formed cases), but you can for the LM (factory). I know, not everywhere, but Cabelas, Gander Mountain etc.

 

[darrindlh]

Re: 338 choice

What caliber of donor rifle should I use to build a 338 Norma . I am very interseted in this cartrige.

Darrin

 

[selfbowhunter]

Re: 338 choice

runngun,

if its pressure X cartridge head diameter, tell me how bolt thrust could be more on a cartridge with a smaller head diameter when the two run at the same chamber pressure?

chuck

 

[runngun]

Re: 338 choice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">runngun,

if its pressure X cartridge head diameter, tell me how bolt thrust could be more on a cartridge with a smaller head diameter when the two run at the same chamber pressure?

chuck </div></div>

Given equal pressure and head diameter, the force on the bolt is the same regardless of rim size. However, with a rebated rim, the boltface is smaller, which usually means a smaller bolt and locking lugs, and therefore a weaker lockup. Also, there is increased pressure on the bolt becasue the force is applied over a smaller area.

As to bolt thrust, I'm not entirely sure what that term means. Is it force, pressure, or some other value?

 

[selfbowhunter]

Re: 338 choice

runngun,

smaller boltface with same pressure is less bolt thrust than larger boltface. that is why most smiths are leary of building the lapua or big weatherbys on the remington. larger boltface equals more bolt thrust for same pressure. i am sure this is right.

chuck

 

[runngun]

Re: 338 choice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: selfbowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">runngun,

smaller boltface with same pressure is less bolt thrust than larger boltface. that is why most smiths are leary of building the lapua or big weatherbys on the remington. larger boltface equals more bolt thrust for same pressure. i am sure this is right.

chuck </div></div>

I agree that for a larger diameter case, for a given pressure, the bolt thrust is more. However, it is not due to the boltface/rim size, but the cross sectional area of the casehead/boady.

Consider a rimmed case; it would exert the same bolt thrust as an otherwise identical rimless case even though the boltface would be bigger for the rimmed version.

Changing the case size changes the force on the bolt; changing the rim size changes the pressure on the bolt but the total force remains the same.


my definitions:
boltface size = rim diameter
case head or body diameter is the maximum diameter at the base of the case ahead of the extractor grove, belt, or rim
bolt thrust is force applied to bolt; force = pressure x case head area

 

[Jared06]

Re: 338 choice

I think the argument of finding factory ammo is overrated for these high performance cartridges. If you find yourself in a jam needing factory ammo then it's going to take a good amount of that factory ammo just to prove your dope over again. I'm not going anywhere with my Edge without an ample amount of loaded ammo that I know how it shoots. I went the Edge rout because it's a poor mans Lapua, but for what $ I have in my set up and the performance I'm getting....it makes me laugh out loud sometimes.

 

[gahlizard]

Re: 338 choice

my edge is running [email protected] that in consideration i just chronoed my edge w/30" tube and a 338 norma w/26" the other day with 300smks and 20F. 91.5 H1000 gave me 2795-2806 for the edge and 92.5-93.5 of retumbo gave me 2740-2770 in the norma. all speeds were at 20ft from the muzzle and shot with in minutes of each other. didn't wait too long cause it was too damn cold. i will be settling on 92-92.5 grains for the norma and it should still be good to go in warmer temps. thanks greg

 

[FormulaZR]

Re: 338 choice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wadcutter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It all depends if you want to load from the magazine or not. Plus if you are fixed on a 26" tube or not.

I run a .338 Edge with a long throated 30" barrel, single load with Rem brass and have no problem getting over 2900 fps with the 300gn SMK and a gut full of H1000. Rem brass is OK.

So make the difference 200 fps and run the numbers. If you are happy with the answer then just take your pick.

Oh yeah, what about the good old .338 Rem Ultra Mag?</div></div>


I'm shooting a 338/300 also. Using a 30" Hart barrel and a Python action I'm seeing ~3050 fps using a 300gr MK and 100.1 gr Retumbo. I am using Rem. brass and I haven't seen any consistency issues with it. All of my brass are fired once to fireform with less powder, then loaded with 100.1 gr for the second firing. For me, a big plus was being able to go to most places and buy off the shelf brass.

Different strokes for different folks; but I would recommend 338/300 over LM...just my opinion.

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: 338 choice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FormulaZR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I'm shooting a 338/300 also. Using a 30" Hart barrel and a Python action I'm seeing ~3050 fps using a 300gr MK and 100.1 gr Retumbo. I am using Rem. brass and I haven't seen any consistency issues with it. All of my brass are fired once to fireform with less powder, then loaded with 100.1 gr for the second firing. For me, a big plus was being able to go to most places and buy off the shelf brass.

Different strokes for different folks; but I would recommend 338/300 over LM...just my opinion. </div></div>

What case OAL are you loading the 300smk to get 100.1 grains in with no excess pressure?

 

[FormulaZR]

Re: 338 choice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goin'Hot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FormulaZR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I'm shooting a 338/300 also. Using a 30" Hart barrel and a Python action I'm seeing ~3050 fps using a 300gr MK and 100.1 gr Retumbo. I am using Rem. brass and I haven't seen any consistency issues with it. All of my brass are fired once to fireform with less powder, then loaded with 100.1 gr for the second firing. For me, a big plus was being able to go to most places and buy off the shelf brass.

Different strokes for different folks; but I would recommend 338/300 over LM...just my opinion. </div></div>

What case OAL are you loading the 300smk to get 100.1 grains in with no excess pressure? </div></div>

I will have to check on that and get back to you. I do not have that information with me right now. I will say that I can't load that much powder on the first firing of the brass. I am also using a single shot Python action, so I don't have to worry about OAL for feeding. Anyway, I will get back to you with my OAL.

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: 338 choice

Zach,
Quikload has you at 72,000psi+ even at a COAL of 3.900 with a start pressure of 3626(loaded off the lands).

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: 338 choice

Greg,
Thanks for posting your results with Retumbo. It looks like that will be a great powder for the 338 Norma. The only other powder at this point that looks like it would outperform Retumbo is Vit N570, which should give an additional 50fps, but will not be as temperature sensitive as the Retumbo.
JIM

 

[wadcutter]

Re: 338 choice

Bluejazz,
I can run a COL of 3.912 and still be 0.010" off the lands in my long throated .338Edge with 300gn SMK and 98 grains of H1000 I get 2950fps.
Can you tell me what Quick load says the pressure I should be getting? I only get about 3 or 4 shots out of a case at this load and accuracy is not as good as the 92 to 93 grain load.

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: 338 choice

Wadcutter,
At 3.912 COAL with a start pressure of 3626psi, 98 gr H-1000 yields 2933 fps out of a 30" barrel at a pressure of 78,196psi.

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: 338 choice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wadcutter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I only get about 3 or 4 shots out of a case at this load and accuracy is not as good as the 92 to 93 grain load. </div></div>

What part of the case failes? Is it the neck or do the primer pockets loosen?

 

[BHP9]

Re: 338 choice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goin'Hot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wadcutter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I only get about 3 or 4 shots out of a case at this load and accuracy is not as good as the 92 to 93 grain load. </div></div>

What part of the case failes? Is it the neck or do the primer pockets loosen? </div></div>

All that I've read on the Edge says that the case life isn't very good, but nothing on the problems.

 

[JLR]

Re: 338 choice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BHP9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
All that I've read on the Edge says that the case life isn't very good, but nothing on the problems.</div></div>

We did some testing and gave up at 8 reloads on a random group of brass we picked out of an EDGE. I'd say if you're going to have a problem it's going to be with the primer pockets loosening up though. Still haven't really ran cases to the point of failure though so I can't tell you exactly how many loads we expect. I'm guessing 6-10 loads though through our rifles with the load we're running depending on how picky you are with primer pockets.

 

[TimResin]

Re: 338 choice

which 338 round has the best brass life? Norma, lapua or the edge?