.338 Lapua - Finding the F/L and Neck Sizing combo

[bluto77]

I'm new to reloading, and .338 Lapua is one of the rounds I'm doing. Also reloading .223 gas gun and .308 and .243 bolt guns. I know that I must F/L re-size for my gas gun, and not worried about neck sizing on it. The bolt guns are different. I've read through all of the reloading stickies, manuals, watched DVD's, and read threads. I recently read through this thread: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...pot/186338-fl-vs-neck-sizing-truth-myths.html which further muddles things for me.

I'm trying to figure out the F/L re-sizing and neck sizing combo I should start off with on my .338 Lapua. It's my understanding that the .338 LM would be the cartridge where neck sizing would be more important than the other cartridges I'm reloading. I'm not 100% sure why that is though. I'm trying to figure out which set of dies to get. I'm leaning towards just "crying once" and getting one of the Redding die sets that has all 3 dies, the seater with mic, the F/L sizer, and neck sizer (not sure if I need mic on this and don't understand the bushing based option). I have a GAP .338 LM with a tight Bartlein chamber that is supposedly cut for 300 gr SMK's and prefers Lapua brass (I've had Hornady and Federal get a little sticky and required force on the bolt handle to remove). I have about 40 pieces of once fired Lapua brass, most from this rifle. I was planning on measuring the fire formed brass from my rifle and "bumping" the other brass back to that length, loading with a light load on the low end of the SAMMI recommendations, and fire forming it. Once I have all of my fire formed brass, I plan on trimming it with my CTS trimmer, and using the OAL measurements from the Hornady OAL gauge to start working on a seating depth the next round of loading. The problem is, I'm not sure where neck sizing comes into play.

As previously stated, I'm trying to figure out a good F/L size and Neck size combination routine. There are so many opinions and schools of thought on this though, it's hard to figure out, and I know know enough about it to form my own opinions just yet. I'm thinking there surely has to be a happy medium of sorts on this. Here's some questions I have:

- How often should I neck size?
- How do I determine what size the neck should be?
- How often should I F/L size?
- How often should I trim, and how do I determine what length to trim?
- What happens if I don't worry about neck sizing, as plenty of people recommend, and just F/L size, trim if needed, and go?
- How do I determine which kind of dies to get? At this point I am shooting for precision and not in tactical situations or competitions.

I know this topic has been discussed before, and I have gone back through and read the previous threads. I appreciate any input and advice I can get on this.

 

[ksthomas]

Bluto77,

Answering your questions in order, here goes;

1)- How often should I neck size?
Never. Nothing to be gained from it, and a whole lot of potential problems, that will become reality for you if you insist on N/S rather than F/L sizing. This was beaten pretty thoroughly in the thread you cited, and most of the comments were spot on.

2)- How do I determine what size the neck should be?
The "normal" answer is approximately .002" under the diameter of the neck measurement of a loaded round, but I want some leeway there. Get a series of bushings, at least .001" above AND below the predicted "correct" size, and play with various degrees of neck tension. Such curiosity is often rewarded with better accuracy.

3) - How often should I F/L size?
Every time you size. Refer to Question #1

4) - How often should I trim, and how do I determine what length to trim?
Some wiggle room here, but just remember, it's a safety issue. Unless you have a set of chamber length checkers (Sinclair sells them), then stick to the SAAMI or CIP "Max Case Length" figures, and trim back to about .010" under that designated maximum length. And yes, there's often quite a bit of room to spare here, safely. Check to be sure.

5) - What happens if I don't worry about neck sizing, as plenty of people recommend, and just F/L size, trim if needed, and go?
Follow the rest of the proper reloading practices (good, reliable data, proper powder selection and storage, etc.) and you should wind up with good, safe, reliable ammunition. Gotta love that!

6) - How do I determine which kind of dies to get? At this point I am shooting for precision and not in tactical situations or competitions.
Redding or Forster would be my first recommendations, though there's several others that will likewise give excellent results. Probably more important to use the equipment properly and set it up accurately to begin with, than it is what color die box it comes in, or whose name is stamped on the die.

Hope that helps.

 

[bluto77]

Bluto77,

Answering your questions in order, here goes;

1)- How often should I neck size?
Never. Nothing to be gained from it, and a whole lot of potential problems, that will become reality for you if you insist on N/S rather than F/L sizing. This was beaten pretty thoroughly in the thread you cited, and most of the comments were spot on.

2)- How do I determine what size the neck should be?
The "normal" answer is approximately .002" under the diameter of the neck measurement of a loaded round, but I want some leeway there. Get a series of bushings, at least .001" above AND below the predicted "correct" size, and play with various degrees of neck tension. Such curiosity is often rewarded with better accuracy.

Hope that helps.

Thank you Kevin. That was very helpful and to the point!

I guess I'm a little confused #1 and #2, as I thought they were one in the same. You're saying NOT to neck size, EVER in answer #1, but then talk about using bushings in answer #2 as they pertain to the size of the neck. What is the difference there? I think this is where the whole neck sizing discussion has become muddled for me in the past.

Dies: Let's assume I go with Redding. Just to confirm, I will need the F/L sizer and the Seater dies, and instead of getting a "neck sizing" die I'll get a "bushing" die? I thought that was a neck sizer though?

Trim Length: How do i determine this using the chamber length checker? You said to trim back to about .010" under the SAMMI or CIP Max Case length figures, but what do I use as an index if using the chamber length checker? I realize I could go read the directions on the chamber length checker box, but you had such a pointed answer on the neck sizing that I would like to hear your direct response to this.

Thanks again!

 

[ksthomas]

Redding (among others) produces bushing dies, meaning that these particular dies use an interchangeable bushing to allow the handloader to choose just how much neck tension is applied. This is done by substituting a larger or smaller bushing size, as desired. These dies are available in both N/S and F/L configurations. The N/S dies don't touch anything other than the neck itself, while the F/L versions size the remainder of the case as well. Yes, you have to specify whether you want the Neck or Full length Busing dies when you order. Sorry for the confusion there.

The chamber length tools are leaded steel (read; soft) inserts that are placed into the necks of modified, trimmed-down cases. They protrude far enough ahead of the case mouth that they are assured of contacting the end of the chamber when the bolt is closed. They are essentially a vey close slip-fit in the case mouth, and will be pushed back into the case when the bolt is closed. The resulting length when you extract that case from the chamber is the distance to the very end of the case mouth, where it transitions into the leade. This is the true, actual length that your cases can before they begin to interfere with the chamber and try to "crimp" the bullet in place. As I said, it's a safety issue, and there is generally many, many thousandths over the specified "Max" length listed in the manuals. Still, being a safety issue, if you haven't measured this yourself, and know for certain what this length is in YOUR rifle, stick to the listed Max length.

Hope this clears it up a bit, and I do apologize if I wasn't clear in my first explanation. Complicated stuff to describe here, but usually pretty simple when you see it in action.

 

[bluto77]

Bushing dies: I'm asking, which configuration do I get? F/L or N/S? I'm assuming the F/L with neck tension bushings, since you say not to do any neck sizing. How do you figure out how much neck tension should be applied by substituting a larger or smaller bushing size.....in other words, what kind of feedback from doing that am i looking for?

Regarding the chamber length:
I guess there is something conceptual that I'm not grasping. Once you have the max length, then how do you know which part of the case to adjust to make it shorter so you do not exceed the max length? Do you trim it at the mouth? Or do you bump the shoulder back? Tell me this, does "bumping" the shoulder back actually change the the over all length of the case, or does it just push the shoulder back further, thus extending the neck?
Also, you said that the chamber length tools are placed into the necks of modified, trimmed-down cases, in order to get the max chamber length. But how do you know how far to trim the case initially?

No need to apologize for your explanations. They're good. It's me that has the thick skull. I'm not overly mechanically inclined. I'm in the financial world and sit behind a desk. Mechanical things of this nature aren't something I just "get". I "get" finance and numbers, but I can't seem to wrap my head around some of these more intricate reloading concepts to save my life!

 

[ksthomas]

Okay, there may be some explanations or definitions in order.

Case length. The length of an empty case (fired or new, either way) from the head to the mouth of the case. This is the length that is being referenced when you see figures calling out "Max Case Length" or "Trim To Length." Important, in that too long a case can cause the bullet to be "crimped" in by the case mouth of the loaded round jamming into the end of the chamber, where it transitions to the leade. Bad stuff here, which is why we want (need) to keep the case length below that figure. The Sinclair length tools/inserts simply allow you to establish an absolute max for YOUR chamber. Without that, you need to stick to the SAAMI or CIP suggested length, which is probably several thou shorter than what they truly need to be. As far as the modified case goes, it's drastically shortened, and not usable as a case to be loaded again, ever. It's a length gage from that point on, end of story. Take a look at the pics on the Sinclair site, and you'll immediately understand what I'm getting at, and how these inserts are used. The lengths on these, by the way, aren't crucial. You need to have enough (and preferably MORE than enough) to allow the insert to be pushed further down into the case, with some room to spare. Just take a look at the pics, and you'll get the idea, I promise.

Pushing the shoulder back has little to nothing to do with case length, or the "crimping" by the chamber that I described. This is headspace, or how much room the case has to move forwards and backwards when the bolt is closed. Simplified explanation, but you should get the picture. In dealing with headspace, you need enough to allow the cartridge to chamber, but don't really want any more than that. Any more than .002"-.003" in a bolt gun, and we start getting into problems with short case life, possible accuracy problems, the increased potential for misfires, etc. . . . nothing good. Insufficient headspace, which is what results from repeated N/S, is when the case won't actually fit into the chamber on its own, and has to have the camming power of the bolt to literally force the cartridge into place as the action is closed. At some point, you'll hit a spot where you cannot close the bolt, and have now jammed a live cartridge into the chamber so tightly that it can neither be fully chambered, nor extracted. This leads to a ruined hunt, a trip to the gunsmith, much cussing, wailing and gnashing of teeth. We avoid this by simply F/L sizing, each and every time. The die configuration you're looking for here is the F/L bushing die.

As to selecting the bushing size, as I mentioned, the normal method is to simply use a bushing that's .002" under the diameter of the neck of a loaded round. The neck of a particular brand of a loaded 308 Win cartridge measures .339", you select a .337" bushing, and you're in business. A 223 cartridge in which the neck measures .243" at the O.D. gets a .241" bushing, and so on. In actual practice, I suggest getting bushings at least .001" above and below the original measurement, just to allow some flexibility down the road. Neck wall thickness varies from make to make, meaning the next time you switch brands of cases from W-W to Federal, you could wind up with bullets that aren't being properly held in place (inadequate neck tension), or, cases that are being worked a bit too much and are excessively tight in gripping the bullet. Aside from this, sometimes you just may want to experiment with varying degrees of neck tension to see if accuracy can be improved. Bottom line is, don't just buy one bushing size and assume that's the end of the story.

 

[bluto77]

I checked out the Sinclair website, and you were right, I completely understand that now. I just had to see it.

Just so I'm clear on this: Pushing/bumping the shoulder back does NOT change the CASE LENGTH of the case. It ONLY pushes the shoulder back far enough so that it will fit into the chamber. We do this because it expands when fired, and could expand far enough forward that it no longer fits in the chamber. We measure the headspace to find out how far back we need to bump the shoulder without bumping it back too far.

I'm understanding the Bushings more as well. We use the bushing to return the neck to it's proper size so there is the right amount of tension to hold the bullet in place. I"m assuming the neck expands when fired like the rest of the brass, and the bushing is used to push it back into place? How is this different than re-sizing the neck?

Again Kevin, thanks so much for the responses. A lot of this finally seems to be "clicking" in my head! I'm pretty confident on my understanding of case length/trimming, and headspace now. I have a better understanding of why we're using bushings on the neck now, but not completely sure how it is adjusting the neck tension. Also not sure how that is different than neck sizing.

 

[ksthomas]

Correct. Case length is case length, and headspace is headspace, and they're not completely bound up with one another. You control each, independently, by how you set your sizing die, and how frequently you trim.

Trying to think of a good analogy for the bushings here that doesn't involve so much typing. When your case enters the die, its finished dimension is controlled by the I.D. of various points inside that die. The neck (in the case of a bushing die) is one part that you can change by simply swapping out the bushing. Let's say your case mouth has expanded to .343" after extracting it from the chamber. The .308" diameter bullet will easily slide into the neck, and just as easily come right back out again; no neck tension. Based on the thickness of the case walls, you know that the O.D. of the fired case (at the neck) will need to be sized down to approximately .337" so that it will apply some tension to the bullet, and prevent it from slipping in or out too easily. Size to that diameter, and you now have good neck tension. Replace that bushing with a .338" or .339" bushing, and the bullets may be a slip fit again, albeit much closer than the fired, unsized cases. Go down to a .336" or even a .335" bushing, and the fit of the bullet to the case neck is now very tight; more neck tension.

Clear it up a bit? In either direction, the use of a bushing die gives you complete control over just how much tension is on the loaded rounds.

 

[Dogtown]

Kevin's giving you a wealth of knowledge (and patience). I think you owe him some beers.

 

[ksthomas]

Just for the record, I only drink domestic beer . . . and only when I'm in Germany!

 

[vh20]

I'm understanding the Bushings more as well. We use the bushing to return the neck to it's proper size so there is the right amount of tension to hold the bullet in place. I"m assuming the neck expands when fired like the rest of the brass, and the bushing is used to push it back into place? How is this different than re-sizing the neck?


I have a better understanding of why we're using bushings on the neck now, but not completely sure how it is adjusting the neck tension. Also not sure how that is different than neck sizing.

To relieve Kevin's fingers for a moment, in the first question above, the bushing IS re-sizing the neck. I can't tell from your question whether or not you understand (so forgive me if this is obvious to you), but the neck gets re-sized EVERY time a case gets reloaded, regardless of whether you F/L size, or neck-size only. There is no neck tension on a fired case, and the bullet would fall right out if you didn't re-size at least the neck. When you neck-size only, you are simply squashing the neck back down to provide tension to hold the bullet, but that's all you are doing. When you F/L size, you are doing the neck sizing operation PLUS pushing the shoulder back just a few thousandths to provide a tiny amount of headspace. You can neck-size without F/L sizing, but you never F/L size without neck-sizing being included in the operation - it's part of it.

For the second question, I'm going to run this with different numbers than Kevin did, because you are loading for a .338 and Kevin was using a .308 for his example. The following numbers will be very similar to the ones you'll be seeing for your gun:

There are two ways the neck can be re-sized, depending on the design of the die. In a standard die, the amount the neck diameter gets squashed back down is set to a fixed amount, determined by the diameter the manufacturer machined the neck portion of the die to. It is un-changeable by any normal-user method (i.e. it would have to be re-machined). You can neck-size only with a standard F/L die by setting the die up high on the press so that the case shoulder doesn't quite touch the shoulder portion of the die at the top of the stroke. Only the neck gets re-sized that way, but as Kevin said, this isn't the recommended practice. The other way to re-size the neck is with a bushing die (whether with a bushing-type neck-sizing only die, or a bushing-type F/L die). With this die, you aren't limited to re-sizing the neck to only one diameter like the standard die does. You can change the diameter of the neck-sizing portion of the die (the bushing) to re-size the neck to any diameter you want. Once again, as Kevin pointed out, a good starting-point inside diameter to shoot for on a re-sized neck is .002" less than the diameter of your bullet. That would mean the inside diameter (i.d.) of a re-sized neck for your .338 would ideally measure .336" (as a good starting point). That would provide .002" neck tension - as you force your .338 bullet into a .336 hole, the hole has to expand by .002 for it to fit (thus, .002 "neck tension"). But here's the rub - you have to account for the wall thickness of your brass as well. To get .002 neck tension, the size of your bushing must include the wall thickness of your particular brass (which can be different from one brand to another). The easiest way to get that measurement is to seat a bullet into one of the cases that you will be using, then measure the outside diameter (o.d.) of the neck with the bullet seated. With a .338 bullet seated, we KNOW that the i.d. of the neck is forced to be .338, so when we measure the o.d. of the neck we take that measurement (let's say it's .368) and subtract .002 to arrive at a desired bushing diameter of .366 in. So, if we re-size the case with a .366 bushing, we KNOW that the i.d. of the neck will be .336 now instead of .338, and we now have our .002 in. of neck tension. If we then wanted to play with the neck tension as Kevin mentioned, we could go up a thousandth a .367 bushing which would only squash the neck down to .337 i.d. (and give us .001 neck tension), or we could down to a .365 bushing which would squash the neck down to .335 i.d. and give us .003 neck tension.

Finally, if you change brass, you need to re-do your loaded-round o.d. measurement to identify any possible difference in neck wall thickness between brands, and switch bushing sizes accordingly if needed. In my theoretical example above, the neck wall thickness of that case would have been .030 / 2 = .015. To state it another way, our o.d. on the loaded round measured .368. We subtract our known bullet diameter (.338) from that and we get .030. But, the neck wall is being measured on both sides of the bullet with the caliper because the neck is all around the cartridge, not just on one side. Therefore, the actual neck wall thickness is only half of .030 (.015) because it's thickness got included twice in our measurement since it is on both sides of the bullet, sandwiched between the caliper jaws. This isn't that important to calculate, however, because we are only concerned with the total o.d. measurement when selecting the bushing size, as we have to include the wall thickness on both sides of the bullet (.030 here) to arrive at the desired bushing size.

For your purposes, to keep it simple, just measure the neck o.d. of a loaded round using your choice of brass, SUBTRACT .002 and write that number down. Then order up a Redding Full Length/Type-S Bushing die along with a bushing size that matches the number you wrote down. Then, with careful set-up, you can manage to F/L size your brass but only bump the shoulder back .001 - .002 (or maybe .003 - .004 for a gas gun) while simultaneously re-sizing the neck to provide .002 neck tension. Later, if you want to experiment with different neck tension, or if you change to brass with different wall thickness, you can order other bushings to provide for the change you want.

 

[bluto77]

Thanks again for all of the replies. I figured Kevin was banging his head on his desk while reading my response!!! I swear I'm not this dumb, but this reloading is really challenging me. The machining aspect and working with those types of tools is not something I have any experience with. So I lack the fundamental concepts of some of these things. Again, I appreciate all of your patience. And nobody has told me to piss off....yet!

Ok, this may be a big part of my challenge in understanding the neck sizing.

I was under the false impression:
F/L Sizing = GOOD

Neck re-sizing = BAD



So I was puzzled when Kevin kept talking about Neck sizing after saying how evil it was. What I failed to pick up on, and now think I understand is:

F/L Sizing AND Neck sizing = GOOD

Neck re-sizing ONLY with NO F/L re-sizing = BAD


And if I understand correctly, the reason it is bad to ONLY re-size the neck is because the shoulder of the case continues to grow/expand, and it starts becoming increasingly tighter to chamber a round. But some guys think tight = good. Then at some point, they get the brass stuck in the chamber by forcing it in. You F/L re-size to keep this from happening.

Also, there are TWO parts of the brass that grow INDEPENDENTLY of one another.
Headspace: Shoulder continues to move forward
Case Length: The neck actually grows longer

The headspace can change and move longer/shorter/longer/shorter, yet the actual case length does not change because of this.
The case length can change longer/shorter/longer/shorter, yet the headspace is not effected by this.

With that in mind, we "bump" the shoulder back with the full length resizing die to keep it from becoming too long that way AND trim the mouth of the brass to keep it from becoming too long that way.

There is also a 3rd way the brass grows, and that is the neck expands after firing. We must re-size the neck to make sure the bullets will stay when we reload them. The size of the neck is not effected by bumping the shoulder or trimming the brass.

It is important that you get all of your measurements correct at the beginning of the process. Find out the correct length of your headspace to know how much to bump the shoulder each time. Find out the correct length of your chamber to know your minimum trim length/maximum case length before you're shoving the bullet into the lands. The neck size is more standardized, but you must measure it after firing to find out if it needs to be tighter. You can also play with the neck tension to see how it effects accuracy.

The other major measurement we haven't discussed is OAL of the cartridge. It is important to measure the OAL of the ___________(is it chamber/headspace?), in order to determine where the bullet will meet the lands. I have the Hornady OAL guage for this. This will tell us how far to seat the bullet. We will use the Ogive as the index for measuring our OAL to rule out small differences in the actual bullets that could throw off our measurement. Through testing and research of other's feedback, we find out if the particular bullet we are using likes to "jump" or does not like to "jump". We can also figure out how much "jump" our particular rifle does or does not like by adjusting the OAL of each cartridge. I think I understand the concept of OAL and how it relates to bullet seating depth, but I'm a little fuzzy on how it is determined.

Thanks again for everyone's input. You have no idea how much this thread is helping me. It's like a light has turned on inside my head!

 

[ksthomas]

By jove, I think he's got it!

Hey, not a problem at all, seriously.

 

[vh20]

A couple of points:

You cannot F/L size without neck-sizing being included as part of the operation. Therefore, when Kevin continued to talk about neck-sizing after saying that neck-sizing ONLY isn't recommended, he was talking about the neck-sizing that NECESSARILY occurs as PART of the F/L process.

I would not categorically state that neck-sizing only is BAD. For most folks, F/L sizing carried out in a very precise manner is the best option. However there are some folks who have very good results with neck-sizing only and have been doing it that way for years. They have their own methods that work for them and will continue to do it. They are aware of the drawbacks and know how to best manage them. It's not for me, but if it works for someone who knows what he's doing...Rock On. At SOME point, even these guys will have to F/L size their brass because it will eventually get too tight to chamber after so many firings.

In general, you did get the point, however - F/L sizing INCLUDES neck-sizing, and is good.

You seem to grasp the way the brass expands in different dimensions.

To correct some other things:

You don't HAVE to measure your chamber length to know what length to trim to. You could just use SAAMI specs for your particular cartridge (for .338, (from memory here, so double check) max case length is 2.724 in., and recommended trim-to length is 2.714). Knowing your particular chamber length might allow you to let them grow a little more before trimming IF your chamber length allows it. Excess case length has NOTHING to do with shoving the bullet into the lands. Only your seating die setting determines that. The concern over case length is that if too long, the neck itself could get shoved up past the end of the chamber and into the lead portion where the diameter becomes smaller. This would squeeze down on the neck and dramatically raise your neck tension (and chamber pressure) to potentially dangerous levels. The bullet itself would still be sitting in the same place with respect to the lands.

There's no need to measure the neck diameter after firing. Not sure where you got that. You measure the neck diameter of a LOADED round, subtract .002, get a bushing of that number, and that's how you get .002 neck tension. We don't care what the neck diameter is after firing (unless we're looking for weird things like an out-of-spec chamber).

OAL - I have the Hornady chamber-measuring tool and have used it and can get consistent measurements with it. The only thing is, if I do it the old-school way and use a sharpie on the bullet and look for rifling marks, I get a DIFFERENT, consistent measurement. I trust the latter method more because it is independent of technique (the Hornady tool is "fiddly"), and I can see with my own eyes exactly when the bullet touches the lands by identifying the length where the marks have disappeared. The Hornady (or Sinclair, etc.) BULLET COMPARATOR (that attaches to your calipers), on the other hand, is invaluable at measuring the length to ogive of a loaded round, and you will need to use it to measure your length to ogive of the round once you determine when it is seated to-the-lands, regardless of whether you use the chamber-measuring gauge, or the Sharpie method.

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

tag for later...

 

[65guys_steve]

tag for later...

Tagged for later - great info on this thread.

 

[bodywerks]

I guess different strokes for different folks. For all out precision, in a rifle built for all out Precision (meaning not a mass produced factory rifle), AND where cycling rounds in rapid succession (like in tactical matches) is not a key concern, neck sizing wins.
I exclude mass produced rifles because the chambers tend to be cut a little rough and may not be concentric to the bore, and fired brass will actually come out nonconcentric. If you were to neck size only, the neck will remain nonconcentric to the body, and you have massive bullet runout resulting in terrible accuracy. Custom chambered barrels by a competent gunsmith are within less than .001, usually far less, measured in ten thousandths, and the chamber is cut with a match reamer and is smooooth. The fired brass out of my PCR built 338 is so true that the only thing moving the needle on my concentricity gauge is the powder residue.
In a custom chambered rifle with a custom action (ie, match grade), neck sized brass can tend to produce more consistent mv and tighter groups, and brass life can be doubled.
The disadvantage is the possibility of the brass being tight enough that locking the bolt into battery can be a tad stiff, and bolt lift being a good bit heavier.
I plan to work up two loads for my 338 - one will be FL sized lower charge rounds for "plinking", and the other will be a single feed, longer than mag length, neck sized only, higher powder charge round for the 1k+ shooting.


PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg

 

[bluto77]

I got the Hornady OAL gauge figured out last night. So I'm good on that. I recently sold a bunch of reloading equipment I had never used b/c I bought it without knowing anything about the process, and got some equipment that will be more helpful. New equipment came in yesterday. Lyman case prep kit, WFT .223 trimmer, CTS trimmer in .308 and .338 LM, RCBS Rangemaster scale. I already had other stuff, but I'm going to get some stuff loaded this weekend. Still waiting on a case length indicator for trimming. I now understand headspace and how to measure, OAL and how to measure, what exactly F/L re-sizing and neck sizing is and how it happens. Again, I really appreciate you breaking it down to a 5 year old's level for me. I've been reading about reloading in manuals and online now for longer than I'm going to admit, and it seems like it has all finally come together and "clicked" in my head over the past week. I'll try to do a thread with me loading up my first rounds on my own so I can get feedback on what I'm doing right/wrong.

 

[bluto77]

One more question to test my understanding of neck sizing:

Is there any difference in how the neck sizer works in these 2 Redding die sets?

Redding Competition Bushing 3-Die Neck Sizer Set 338 Lapua Mag
Competition Bushing Sizing Die -- With this die, the cartridge case is completely supported and aligned with the sizing bushing before the sizing process begins. As the sizing process starts, the cartridge case remains supported in the tightly chambered sliding sleeve as it moves upward while the resizing bushing self centers on the case neck. The decapping rod is maintained in precise alignment by using the internal parts of the die as a linear support much like a firing pin. While the micrometer adjustment of the bushing position delivers precise control to the desired amount of the neck length to be sized. (Bushings are sold separately)

Redding Type S Match Bushing 3-Die Neck Sizer Set 338 Lapua Mag
The Redding Type S Bushing Neck Die allows the reloader to precisely control case neck size and tension. Type S Dies use interchangeable sizing bushings that are available in .001" increments. This set includes Type S Bushing Neck Sizing Die, Body Die and Competition Seater Die. Bushing and Shellholder are sold separately.

What I'm getting from that is the "Competition bushing neck sizer" in the top set can do 2 kinds of neck re-sizing. It resizes the neck tension, which we've previously determined is good. It will also resize the neck length, which we haven't really discusssed. It looks like the "Type S Match Bushing Neck Die" uses bushings to re-size the neck tension. Both of these are separate from the F/L resizing die. Should I just stick with one that is in the F/L sizing die?

 

[ksthomas]

Bluto77,

Skip them both. Again, they're strictly N/S dies, which are best avoided unless you're doing something very specific, and even then, I'd incorporate them with a F/L body die as part of a two-step process. The "Competition" bushing dies utilize a micrometer head to adjust the portion of the neck being sized . . . pure puff here. I have a couple sets that I bought when they first came out, and I've used fairly extensively for experimentation early on. Don't use them any more, and they just take up space in my shelves. There are certain times when a N/S bushing die comes in handy, but I still don't use them for reloading per se. I do use them from time to time when dealing with new, unfired brass to assure proper neck tension and roundness. These, or an expander mandrel die such as the Sinclair. The Competition die would do the same thing, but costs more than twice as much. For what you're doing right now, save your money, and sidestep both of these.

My mentor, Martin James "Jim" Hull, used to say that a case needs to fit a chamber like a rat turd in a violin case. Yeah, Jim had a way with words. He was also Sierra Bullets Chief Ballistician for several decades, a firing member of numerous US Palma Teams, and a champion High Power shooter with nearly forty years of experience at Camp Perry. There's absolutely no need, or reason to be neck sizing. It does not aid in accuracy, compared with cartridges that have been properly F/L sized, they don't have much impact on case longevity, certainly not compared to the other factors (like load intensity) involved in the reloading process. Neck Sizing will cause you problems at some point, probably sooner rather than later, and according to Murphy, it'll be at the worst possible time. Avoid it, and avoid the headaches. Believe me, I've run into just about every single oddball problem a handloader can see, and proper sizing will eliminate the vast majority of them.

Stick with the F/L die, and life will be much less complicated.

 

[bluto77]

That's what I was thinking..that these neck sizers weren't doing the same thing as the F/L re-sizing die that also happened to allow you to adjust the neck tension (which in your previous posts was a good thing). I went with "REDDING - REDDING TYPE-S MATCH FULL LENGTH DIE SET, CATEGORY III CARTRIDGES". Thanks again.

 

[ksthomas]

Should be good to go!