338 Lapua Nightmares

[farmerbrown]

Gi'day...

What bushing did you use with the competition dies?

Thanks to the AI rep for the clarification on the (presumably older) non-CIP AI platforms...

 

[Bluejazz]

To the OP,

You were quick to blame everyone about the issues you were experiencing with your rifle but it is quite clear the issues are a result of your ignorance. If you had done your due diligence beforehand you would not be asking AI or your smith to make it right.

I do agree with part of this statement about him blaming others, but I can certainly see how easily someone could be confused by the different 338 Lapua reamers, and which mags and stocks work with which reamer.
I alittle confused just reading about in on this thread.
I think the gunsmith could have assisted in having this worked out ahead of time, and chambered the barrel to the correct COAL for the bullet to be used with the build components.
Would like to know more details about the headspace issue and how it turns out.

 

[sinister]

I check my specs and my ammo is dead nuts to specs. 3.680. I then measure the length of the AI AX 338 magazine and it measures 3.650.

Perhaps your barrel guy set up the chamber so your ammo would be mag-length?

I tried Redding .338LM dies. After cracking four sizing dies (between full-length and S-dies) I no longer use them.

 

[KYS]

Looks like I will be calling Mile High on Monday. How do I get the wrong chasis when I call in saying I am building a 338 lapua mag for a defiance action to shoot 300 grain Sierra Match Kings?

If you are not specific with them they have no way of guessing what you intend to do with your loading. Not their fault.
You have to tell them exactly what you want and regarding this issue, more research would have helped you.

Also plan on having your smith push out your chamber as it sounds like it was cut short.

 

[Terry Cross]

How are you guys deciding on whether the smith cut a SAAMI, CIP or even custom spec'd chamber when the OP can't even get a piece of sized brass to chamber and no dimensional print or detailed chamber spec was given?

If I read this correctly, no one person did the build? The OP was calling all shots on the components and bolting it together yet did not know the details of the possible industry combinations. He chose everything ahead of time and pieced out the work. Then very early on, wants to torpedo Accuracy International and Defiance. Am I correct?

At this point, I would not even start to work on a fix or decide WHAT needs addressing until you get/borrow a couple of factory .338LM rounds or a chamber GO gauge. IF the rounds or GO gauge will chamber, you are blowing something with your case size/prep. IF they do not close, your chamber cutter guy would need to adjust the chamber and provide you with a dimensional print of the reamer used so you will know what leade spec you have. In fact, ask for the print first so you will know to have the final work done to a SAAMI length (L916) leade.

 

[poison123]

How are you guys deciding on whether the smith cut a SAAMI, CIP or even custom spec'd chamber when the OP can't even get a piece of sized brass to chamber and no dimensional print or detailed chamber spec was given?

If I read this correctly, no one person did the build? The OP was calling all shots on the components and bolting it together yet did not know the details of the possible industry combinations. He chose everything ahead of time and pieced out the work. Then very early on, wants to torpedo Accuracy International and Defiance. Am I correct?

At this point, I would not even start to work on a fix or decide WHAT needs addressing until you get/borrow a couple of factory .338LM rounds or a chamber GO gauge. IF the rounds or GO gauge will chamber, you are blowing something with your case size/prep. IF they do not close, your chamber cutter guy would need to adjust the chamber and provide you with a dimensional print of the reamer used so you will know what leade spec you have. In fact, ask for the print first so you will know to have the final work done to a SAAMI length (L916) leade.

Stop trying to inject a formed opinion into this Terry......your gonna derail the thread.

 

[sinister]

Bingo.

Aircraft, space ships, and ship manufacturers bolt stuff together from dozens (if not more) of sub-contractors around the world -- and the end results fly, orbit, and sail. There's got to be ONE final, comprehensive drawing or set of specs everyone knows they're building to.

Ever wonder why Remington's 700P in .338LM fires SAAMI spec ammo? "Dude, did you know there are TWO sets of specs for the 338 Lapua?" "Yup."

 

[Scorpion King]

To the people saying I am "torpedoing or blaming" Defiance and Accuracy International? I never said anything blasting either one. They are both top of the line products and I have said so from the start. The only thing I asked was wouldn't a company like Defiance ask which 338 round I was running. Seems like a viable question when building a custom action that has 2 different bullets?

As for AI. I have never complained about AI in any sort, as a company. I simply wish the dealer I bought my chasis from would have asked me which Lapua round I was loading in my build as well. Once again seems like a viable question. I never assumed anything? I didn't know there was a difference. I usually trust the people who do this for a living to help me in this field. Thats why I shop at the places I do and stray away from the bigger chains. I am not blaming them for my gun not turning out the way I wanted. I just wish they would have gave me the option instead of making the choice for me.

I did my research for my load in 3 different reloading manuals and even started a build thread when I picked out my components and no one else ever mentioned the different COAL. I bet alot of people didn't know there were 2 different Lapua rounds. I've also built 2 other rifles and never had a single issue. So while I am not the authority on rifle building I am not exactly green.

 

[Scorpion King]

If you are not specific with them they have no way of guessing what you intend to do with your loading. Not their fault.
You have to tell them exactly what you want and regarding this issue, more research would have helped you.

Also plan on having your smith push out your chamber as it sounds like it was cut short.

They were guessing though. Why not just ask?

 

[CoryT]

Well, since Defiance was just supplying an action, what caliber for them is just a matter of what action length and boltface diameter you want. For AI, asking for an AX stock is asking for an AX stock, for all they know you are going to load .338 Norma. There is basically one magazine, it's CIP length, there you go.

Now, when the action is getting a barrel installed, the smith might certainly want to ask just what cartridge length and bullet you'd be using, or ask just what chamber spec you'd like. It's possible however that your smith is not all that familiar with 338's, has only one reamer and you neglected to ask for what you actually wanted. Therefore, you got what he gave you, not what you need. I personally like to supply a few dummy rounds of the load I intend to use, which would seem to deal with this particular issue.

This all seems to be pretty fixable though, so figure out what you REALLY want, make the alterations required and drive on, no harm no foul.

 

[KYS]

They were guessing though. Why not just ask?

AI just got on here and told you the AX chassis is CIP mag length. Get a CIP magazine and keep going. Did you tell Defiance what caliber you were building when you ordered the action?
Why is this the vendors fault when you were the one deciding on the components? Details make or break a project. You are missing a few of them apparently. Not trying to be negative, just stating the facts you have presented.

 

[KYS]

To the people saying I am "torpedoing or blaming" Defiance and Accuracy International? I never said anything blasting either one. They are both top of the line products and I have said so from the start. The only thing I asked was wouldn't a company like Defiance ask which 338 round I was running. Seems like a viable question when building a custom action that has 2 different bullets?

As for AI. I have never complained about AI in any sort, as a company. I simply wish the dealer I bought my chasis from would have asked me which Lapua round I was loading in my build as well. Once again seems like a viable question. I never assumed anything? I didn't know there was a difference. I usually trust the people who do this for a living to help me in this field. Thats why I shop at the places I do and stray away from the bigger chains. I am not blaming them for my gun not turning out the way I wanted. I just wish they would have gave me the option instead of making the choice for me.

I did my research for my load in 3 different reloading manuals and even started a build thread when I picked out my components and no one else ever mentioned the different COAL. I bet alot of people didn't know there were 2 different Lapua rounds. I've also built 2 other rifles and never had a single issue. So while I am not the authority on rifle building I am not exactly green.

No, because they are suppling you the piece that feeds and extracts the live (or empty) casing. The action in no way influences your caliber except for your bolt face and cartridge length (LA, SA, super mag). The barrel and chamber affect the caliber most directly.

Since Lapua offers one 338 caliber.... it's self explanatory. Your mistake is in OAL of chamber specs. AI also made it clear the AX chassis runs CIP magazines. You should have researched it and asked for the correct magazine. They are retailers, not mind readers.

So now it's our fault for not telling you how to chamber your rifle? HAH! Again, a little research and asking the correct questions would have went a long way for you..... you are not a rifle builder, but you also don't know the most basic of 338LM knowledge.
It's not a knock on you, but had the questions been asked or you had googled "338 Lapua Magnum ammo length" an article from Wikipedia pops up and explains it all. .338 Lapua Magnum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Masked]

To the people saying I am "torpedoing or blaming" Defiance and Accuracy International? I never said anything blasting either one. They are both top of the line products and I have said so from the start. The only thing I asked was wouldn't a company like Defiance ask which 338 round I was running. Seems like a viable question when building a custom action that has 2 different bullets?

As for AI. I have never complained about AI in any sort, as a company. I simply wish the dealer I bought my chasis from would have asked me which Lapua round I was loading in my build as well. Once again seems like a viable question. I never assumed anything? I didn't know there was a difference. I usually trust the people who do this for a living to help me in this field. Thats why I shop at the places I do and stray away from the bigger chains. I am not blaming them for my gun not turning out the way I wanted. I just wish they would have gave me the option instead of making the choice for me.

I did my research for my load in 3 different reloading manuals and even started a build thread when I picked out my components and no one else ever mentioned the different COAL. I bet alot of people didn't know there were 2 different Lapua rounds. I've also built 2 other rifles and never had a single issue. So while I am not the authority on rifle building I am not exactly green.

You're blaming Defiance when this is not actually a Defiance issue. The onus is on the customer, even in this age of entitlement.

You wish they had asked when you simply used a "buy it now" feature instead of calling. When in doubt, pick up a telephone. Use your words.

The entire problem here with your loading issue is with the chamber reaming, period. Done. Over. -- Your Smith not only did not educate you on the different sizing but, he failed to cut your chamber to the proper depth.

That is not an AI issue nor a Defiance issue. That is a gunsmith issue.

Ultimately, this is a failure of your gunsmith to be educated on the caliber and your own for not being diligent on your purchase.

You didn't perform the due diligence in researching the product so, you did make assumptions...Btw...and those assumptions are your issue.

I've done similar when ordering for my 300wm...Actually ordered the wrong chassis. The difference between me and you is, as a business owner, I understand it's my responsibility to pick up a phone and do the research when I have questions. I did not and very hastily learned from that mistake. Time will tell if you learn from this but, the direction of the thread and your posts, suggests that you won't. I hope I'm wrong but, it is what it is.

Btw: Even on the Wikipedia page: .338 Lapua Magnum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ; within the first 4 words, the sizing is noted:

The .338 Lapua Magnum (8.6×70mm or 8.58×70mm)

 

[Scorpion King]

I'm not blaming defiance or my stock provider . I'm asking why not ask questions? Both are quality companies.i did place the order over the phone like I always do.

 

[Masked]

I'm not blaming defiance or my stock provider . I'm asking why not ask questions? Both are quality companies.i did place the order over the phone like I always do.

Yes but, your "why not" situation is ultimately an issue of you, Joe Customer. Mile High is not psychic. Nor was/is Defiance. It's not their responsibility to double check with you on your purchase. The customer is ALWAYS right.

MOST gunsmiths chamber the rifle to 8.6...In fact, the AI, Barrett and any other .338 factory rifle I could find, are chambered at 8.6...Why? 8.6 takes out 90% of the guesswork and even if you shoot the 8.58 in an 8.6 chamber, you're still good to go.

Ultimately, I really don't understand why we're sitting here, debating over 2mm...Just re-seat your rounds. The performance is the same minus a few semantics. However, once again, had your rifle been reamed to 8.6, as it should have been to begin with, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now and you wouldn't have the need to send anything back.

 

[damoncali]

I wouldn't blame either party here. One thing you learn when you venture off the beaten path is that cartridge specs are not always as well defined as something like a .308. The weirder it is, the more anal you need to be about understanding the specific reamer and brass used. Would it have been great for them to ask? Sure. Is it something that should be expected given the project? No, not really. I think it's reasonable to assume someone ordering such a beast has things under control. In any case, it's not the end of the world. Call them up and ask what needs to be done to get it right. Shit happens. You fix it and move on.

I had a .30 BR built in 2000. At the time, that meant custom dies. There was no spec at all. No SAAMI, no CIP, no nothing. Not in any reloading manuals. It was a total wildcat. Fast forward 13 years, and I don't know for sure if my brass will fit in off the shelf dies. Just the nature of the beast. Back then, I had to be damn sure I knew what I was getting and how to make the brass fit. And the gunsmith knew that damn well and made sure I got it right. Now, it's pretty safe to say, "build me a .30 BR", and the smith will just assume it will work. Sometimes the line is not that clear.

Chalk it up to learning.

 

[E. Bryant]

Yes but, your "why not" situation is ultimately an issue of you, Joe Customer. Mile High is not psychic. Nor was/is Defiance. It's not their responsibility to double check with you on your purchase. The customer is ALWAYS right.

MOST gunsmiths chamber the rifle to 8.6...In fact, the AI, Barrett and any other .338 factory rifle I could find, are chambered at 8.6...Why? 8.6 takes out 90% of the guesswork and even if you shoot the 8.58 in an 8.6 chamber, you're still good to go.

Ultimately, I really don't understand why we're sitting here, debating over 2mm...Just re-seat your rounds. The performance is the same minus a few semantics. However, once again, had your rifle been reamed to 8.6, as it should have been to begin with, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now and you wouldn't have the need to send anything back.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? It certainly appears that you do not, seeing as how the physical difference between SAAMI and CIP dimensions has absolutely nothing to do with whether one refers to the round as "8.58x70mm" or "8.6x70mm". The latter difference is simply one of nomenclature (the apparent 0.02mm difference being a 0.005" rounding error in the bore diameter), and has nothing to do with seating depth, OAL, or anything of the sort (hint: the difference between 8.58mm and 8.6mm is not 2mm as you suggest is the case).

As has already been stated or inferred in the thread, there is at the very least the issue of an unknown chamber specification, and that may be further complicated by an out-of-spec headspace condition. If the OP is not capable of understanding the concept of selecting components - including the reamer - to produce a desired outcome, then it's time to send the rifle to a gunsmith who can unfuck the situation (which should be fairly straightforward, as I doubt that any fatal error has been inflicted upon this project).

 

[dinc]

ALWAYS start off with some factory ammo.

 

[Badshot308]

Yes but, your "why not" situation is ultimately an issue of you, Joe Customer. Mile High is not psychic. Nor was/is Defiance. It's not their responsibility to double check with you on your purchase. The customer is ALWAYS right.

MOST gunsmiths chamber the rifle to 8.6...In fact, the AI, Barrett and any other .338 factory rifle I could find, are chambered at 8.6...Why? 8.6 takes out 90% of the guesswork and even if you shoot the 8.58 in an 8.6 chamber, you're still good to go.

Ultimately, I really don't understand why we're sitting here, debating over 2mm...Just re-seat your rounds. The performance is the same minus a few semantics. However, once again, had your rifle been reamed to 8.6, as it should have been to begin with, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now and you wouldn't have the need to send anything back.

Masked, you don't seem to understand metric designations. The 8.58 and 8.6 refer to the bullet diameter. The actual metric diameter for a .338 is 8.5852mm. The 8.6mm comes to 0.338583". The 8.61mm shown in the .338 Lapua Magnum maximum C.I.P. cartridge dimensions comes to 0.3389764". The 70 is the case length. The 8.6x70 is a rounded up metric designation. Why there are different metric designations floating around, who knows? They all use the same diameter bullet. The only difference between CIP and the non-CIP length cartridges that were loaded to fit the original AI rifles where the overall length the bullets were seated to. Edit: E Bryant beat me to it....

What I don't understand with the OP's rifle is the magazine. If the AX chassis is only offered with the CIP length mag, how would he end up with one of the old non-CIP mags? I have one of the old AICS which has a magazine with an internal length of about 3.64". One of those mags wouldn't even lock into a CIP chassis, it would fall right out.

 

[Masked]

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? It certainly appears that you do not, seeing as how the physical difference between SAAMI and CIP dimensions has absolutely nothing to do with whether one refers to the round as "8.58x70mm" or "8.6x70mm". The latter difference is simply one of nomenclature (the apparent 0.02mm difference being a 0.005" rounding error in the bore diameter), and has nothing to do with seating depth, OAL, or anything of the sort (hint: the difference between 8.58mm and 8.6mm is not 2mm as you suggest is the case).

As has already been stated or inferred in the thread, there is at the very least the issue of an unknown chamber specification, and that may be further complicated by an out-of-spec headspace condition. If the OP is not capable of understanding the concept of selecting components - including the reamer - to produce a desired outcome, then it's time to send the rifle to a gunsmith who can unfuck the situation (which should be fairly straightforward, as I doubt that any fatal error has been inflicted upon this project).

In my experience with the 338lm, the primary issues I experienced were issues in regards to seating/length, thus my comments, however, you are correct because, there is a sleight variation in the cases...So, I apologize, I was incorrect.


Saami vs. CIP

That being said, the CIP cartridge is actually slightly longer than the Saami...

I do agree w/the second half of your statement.

Masked, you don't seem to understand metric designations. The 8.58 and 8.6 refer to the bullet diameter. The actual metric diameter for a .338 is 8.5852mm. The 8.6mm comes to 0.338583". The 8.61mm shown in the .338 Lapua Magnum maximum C.I.P. cartridge dimensions comes to 0.3389764". The 70 is the case length. The 8.6x70 is a rounded up metric designation. Why there are different metric designations floating around, who knows? They all use the same diameter bullet. The only difference between CIP and the non-CIP length cartridges that were loaded to fit the original AI rifles where the overall length the bullets were seated to. Edit: E Bryant beat me to it....

What I don't understand with the OP's rifle is the magazine. If the AX chassis is only offered with the CIP length mag, how would he end up with one of the old non-CIP mags? I have one of the old AICS which has a magazine with an internal length of about 3.64". One of those mags wouldn't even lock into a CIP chassis, it would fall right out.

Oye, I addressed this a bit, above.

As I said as well, my primary experiences revolving around the cartridge were of length. I didn't realize the two were actually necked differently.

I was incorrect and I thank you for being informative.

 

[Jabronie]

the easiest fix is to seat the bullets deeper, sound like the rifle was built on original specs of the .338 lapua where it was seated in deep, as I understand it the CIP mag is relatively new, plus you cant just switch chassis forcing the bolt close will add much greater wear to the throat than normal taking away the accurate life of the barrel faster, I do believe defiance offers a CIP length mag cut but you have to specify when you order your action, and yes you can use a 300gr. with ether configuration of the bullet

 

[Mod Adahy]

Doesn't anybody take a dummy round(or a live one for that matter of fact) and check it in a completed rifle? I can shoot from the house and I still do it so I don't go upstairs with a gun that "no worky".

 

[Badshot308]

In my experience with the 338lm, the primary issues I experienced were issues in regards to seating/length, thus my comments, however, you are correct because, there is a sleight variation in the cases...So, I apologize, I was incorrect.


Saami vs. CIP

That being said, the CIP cartridge is actually slightly longer than the Saami...

I do agree w/the second half of your statement.



Oye, I addressed this a bit, above.

As I said as well, my primary experiences revolving around the cartridge were of length. I didn't realize the two were actually necked differently.

I was incorrect and I thank you for being informative.

Hey, no problem. I think what's causing a lot of confusion is these various, incorrect dimensions that are being posted on the internet. That attachment labeled as 338LmCIP has bullet and neck dimensions that are way off. They list the bullet diameter as 7.87mm which is 0.3098425" and a neck diameter of 8.78mm at the shoulder which is 0.3456693". That print is for the 300 Lapua Magnum and would never work for the .338. The thing to remember is that CIP and SAAMI bullet and neck diameters are the same, just overall length is different.

 

[farmerbrown]

Huh?

That CIP drawing looks wrong.

CIP OAL is 93.5, not 94.5 - actually the supposed 'CIP 338' shows the bullet diameter as .308 calibre.

Sorry - badshot beat me to it...

I still have never seen a SAAMI .338 LM drawing - anybody got one?

 

[Assault116]

To the people saying I am "torpedoing or blaming" Defiance and Accuracy International? I never said anything blasting either one. They are both top of the line products and I have said so from the start. The only thing I asked was wouldn't a company like Defiance ask which 338 round I was running. Seems like a viable question when building a custom action that has 2 different bullets?

As for AI. I have never complained about AI in any sort, as a company. I simply wish the dealer I bought my chasis from would have asked me which Lapua round I was loading in my build as well. Once again seems like a viable question. I never assumed anything? I didn't know there was a difference. I usually trust the people who do this for a living to help me in this field. Thats why I shop at the places I do and stray away from the bigger chains. I am not blaming them for my gun not turning out the way I wanted. I just wish they would have gave me the option instead of making the choice for me.

I did my research for my load in 3 different reloading manuals and even started a build thread when I picked out my components and no one else ever mentioned the different COAL. I bet alot of people didn't know there were 2 different Lapua rounds. I've also built 2 other rifles and never had a single issue. So while I am not the authority on rifle building I am not exactly green.

The fact that you've loaded ammo for a rifle that you had built that doesn't fit suggests otherwise. I don't mean to be a dick but this is reloading 101 stuff here (measuring your chamber before loading ammo for it)

Your main problems all lie with the chambering of the barrel and nowhere else.

First Loading to SAAMI spec or not doesn't guarantee it's going to fit a mag and your chamber. You need to figure that part out long before the barrel is chambered. Make sure they're going to feed at or just below your mag length through the opening in your action, then load some dummy rounds at say .020" short in the magazine (at bare minimum) to give to the smith and tell him to chamber and throat the barrel to fit that round with the bullet touching. This leaves you options for loading off the lands, touching, or jammed and still feed from the magazine just fine. Luckily for you it all sounds like the chamber is short and needs to be cut deeper and probably in more than just the throat (since you can't close the bolt on a piece of sized brass), so it can be pretty easily fixed.

I can't believe guys are building rifles on this level without providing the smith with a few dummy rounds they've loaded with their preferred components to fit their mag and having the chamber cut to fit correctly. This to me seems pretty much a no-brainer.

 

[farmerbrown]

Gi'day...

Besides the poor understanding of metric designation, there's a lot of speculation about SAAMI specs. I'd appreciate it somebody can find one for the .338LM.

Up until I see it, I assume that CIP and SAAMI are the same length.
This is 3.681 or 93.5mm (I just finished loading 100 to that length).

The non-CIP problem from AI goes back to the original round produced for the UK DoD. It was 3.600 long. This is 91.4mm, as Wikipedia explains.

So, I assume this story that SAAMI is longer might not be true, as people are interpreting the two lengths above wrongly. The OP said his mag was 3.6 so it looks like he has the shorter mag. He'll have to figure out how that happened.

I don't know how he got this non-CIP AX chassis.
Didn't think they made them shorter for the AX, but no experience with them.

But this isn't a show stopper. I sometimes have to reseat some overly long factory ammo back to 3.681 to fit my rifle's mags.

But it seems like there might be a problem with either the chamber or the brass prep.
Not sure how you can put a rifle together properly without headspace nag it in some way, but who knows? As many posters have indicated, that's the next step. The CIP thing isn't a biggie.

If you had some gauges yourself it would be a start to see if your brass is ok.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[blackblue]

Yes, according to the specs in the Sierra reloading manual. Brass was brand new Lapua brass and was nearly perfect out of the box.

I have had brand new 308 lapua brass not fit a chamber when winchester brass and factory ammo would fit fine.

 

[Badshot308]

Gi'day...

Besides the poor understanding of metric designation, there's a lot of speculation about SAAMI specs. I'd appreciate it somebody can find one for the .338LM.

Up until I see it, I assume that CIP and SAAMI are the same length.
This is 3.681 or 93.5mm (I just finished loading 100 to that length).

The non-CIP problem from AI goes back to the original round produced for the UK DoD. It was 3.600 long. This is 91.4mm, as Wikipedia explains.

So, I assume this story that SAAMI is longer might not be true, as people are interpreting the two lengths above wrongly. The OP said his mag was 3.6 so it looks like he has the shorter mag. He'll have to figure out how that happened.

I don't know how he got this non-CIP AX chassis.
Didn't think they made them shorter for the AX, but no experience with them.

But this isn't a show stopper. I sometimes have to reseat some overly long factory ammo back to 3.681 to fit my rifle's mags.

But it seems like there might be a problem with either the chamber or the brass prep.
Not sure how you can put a rifle together properly without headspace nag it in some way, but who knows? As many posters have indicated, that's the next step. The CIP thing isn't a biggie.

If you had some gauges yourself it would be a start to see if your brass is ok.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Well, I went to SAAMI's website and here's what I found. The drawings for the 338 Lapua are pending http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/C and C Dwgs - TOC - Rifle.pdf

 

[Scorpion King]

Issue was on the M16 extractor on the bolt. Their was an imperfection on the bolt which wasn't allowing the bolt to close as it should. Defiance and my Smith were able to chase down the issue over the phone. Rifle closes up as it should now. If I had bought a Remington action I would probably not have gotten an answer for like 6 months. Got to love small businesses and the way they stand behind a product and are personable with their clients.

I called Mile High about the stock and as usual as I stated they handled the issue with ease. They offered to swap my AX SAAMI stock for the CIP version if I wanted. They also were able to identify that all AX stocks are not CIP as Tom Irwin said. They tried to throw a CIP mag in the same long action that I have and it was a no go. This is why I do business with this vendor. They are hands on, honest, and have amazing customer service.

On a side note:
My smith measured all of my brass with a Precision micrometer and said it was perfect. Thank you so much to the people that were helpful and polite in helping me with the problem.

 

[Badshot308]

Glad you got it sorted out.

 

[thefitter]

Make sure you wear eye protection the first time you shoot her!!! Just kidding...post a follow up on functionality and groups.

 

[sinister]

Now that your rifle should be complete, how do you plan to check it before you even chamber the first live round?

Military practice is to use a GO, NO-GO, and FIELD gage. Do you have a set? Is it SAAMI or CIP?

 

[Scorpion King]

My smith has one in saami. He checked it last time as well which was weird. That is why we didn't use any factory rounds before letting it out the door. I'll post a range report after I send some rounds down range.

 

[bluto77]

Very educational thread.

 

[farmerbrown]

Great,

Enjoy!!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Terry Cross]

Issue was on the M16 extractor on the bolt. Their was an imperfection on the bolt which wasn't allowing the bolt to close as it should.

I may be wrong here but I think you are once again placing blame on one of your component suppliers. I do not think there was a thing wrong with your Defiance action.

My money is that the bolt was fine. Bolts with M16 style extractors require that the bolt nose recess around the chamber entrance be machined to a considerably larger diameter than required for factory type extractors. Otherwise, there is no clearance for the M16 style extractor claw to pivot away from the bolt nose and climb over the case rim as you lock the action down. The recess diameter for standard extractor bolts with 700'ish diameters are usually cut to 0.705-0.760" depending on your preferences. .750" diameter bolts with M16 style extractors can need as much as 0.840" diameter to allow clearance for the extractor to move.

Failure to heed the proper clearance will result in your bolt coming to a firm halt well shy of closed.
You said you could close the bolt by "wrenching it down" over a cartridge. You then said later "Yeah there is always a dimple on the rim of the cartridge"

What happened is that your smith didn't cut the necessary bolt nose clearance for your type extractor as referenced above. When you forced (wrenched) your bolt forward to put the bolt into complete lock up, you forced the extractor claw past the barrel recess and the rim. Brass is softer than barrel steel so your brass showed the "dimple" you referred to as you forced the front of the claw between the two.

You will see that that dimple always corresponds to where your extractor was on the case rim, You will also see a rub mark on the inside diameter of the breech recess if the surface had a good machined finish and you get the right angle with your light. This is where the outside edge of the extractor was being forced past.

I do not think there was an imperfection in the bolt as you stated above.

TC

 

[E. Bryant]

Bolts with M16 style extractors require that the bolt nose recess around the chamber entrance be machined to a considerably larger diameter than required for factory type extractors.

Yep, I learned that one the hard way the first time I fit a bolt using a M16 extractor. Can't really blame anyone, considering that Badger was pretty f'in' clear in the provided instructions; I was just too arrogant to actually read the entire document (in my defense, there were at least dozens of words).

 

[bartizzle]

Just for reference, which bushing are you running? 0.364, 0.365, 0.366? They are the standard comp full length bushing dies. Also what is the trim to length, I'm sure its good, most Lapua brass is held to excellent tolerances off the shelf.

full length

these are my dies
Redding Type S Match Bushing 2-Die Set 338 Lapua Mag

 

[Scorpion King]

.365

 

[Nomad909]

Ok, I've read this thread 6x's and I'm confused on this subject still...

I'm building a 338 edge. I want to use an ax aics chassis that's pre2014, I like those buttstocks better. I found one for sale and it's what I'm looking for (I think). The current owner only uses normal length 300wm magazines 3.64ish I believe.. he does not know if it's CIP length/capable chassis and does not have a magazine to test this. What do i do??

I read the comment from the AI rep. Earlier in this thread. The way I understand it is all ax aics are CIP?? Some later comments contradict that..

Please clarify this for me, thanks in advance.

 

[Cold_Bore_88]

I have a Definace Action with CIP bottom metal and CIP magazines. Never had an issue. I would guess the Definace is already cut to accept CIP. I am almost positive this is your issue.

Mine was built by Mark Gordon at Short Action Customs. Give them a call. Great customer service. They would be happy to help.

 

[Nomad909]

"Cold_Bore_88, post: 7288741, member: 88113"]I have a Definace Action with CIP bottom metal and CIP magazines. Never had an issue. I would guess the Definace is already cut to accept CIP. I am almost positive this is your issue.

Mine was built by Mark Gordon at Short Action Customs. Give them a call. Great customer service. They would be happy to help.[/QUOTE]

My question was pertaining to the AX acis portion.. The defiance part doesn't really reply to me..

 

[Kenco Arms]

If you dont specify CIP length then you probably not gona get it. Just because you run a 338 dose not automatically mean your running CIP length.

If your going to change to CIP length magazines for your 338 you will need

CIP length mags
CIP chassis
You will probably need to modify your Defiance long action to work with the .125ish longer CIP mags. You will need to cut the feed ramp on the action forward to accommodate the longer mags

I’m catching up late but I just purchased a GAP in 338 Lapua and the chassis is AI they don’t make a CIP LH chassis. The Remington 700p factory AI 5 shot mag must Be CIP. But any rate loading new brass and starting over.