338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

[michael_aos]

Now that I'm set-up to shoot 338 Lapua...

If I load the 300gr Berger to AICS mag-length, it REALLY extends down into the powder column.

I'm kind of wondering if I should have looked a little harder at the 338 Norma Mag from the start.

Also already thinking maybe 338 Norma might be the way to go once this factory barrel is shot-out.
--

 

[skinney_7]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

i did plenty of research before building my norma... i can seat the 300 OTM's mag length in the AICS, right @ 3.634 i can get a tad longer but sometimes get some feeding issues... the case seems more efficient, as i can push the 300grn bullet @ 2900 fps with roughly 86.5 of RL22, you really cant beat it, even with the lapua... especially if you can pull .5 moa...

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

I have owned both a .338 Lapua and a .338 Norma. I can attest from my personal experience that barrel life is significantly longer with the Norma. I've witnessed the difference in throat erosion, using a Stoney Point Gauge. There are differences between these two cartridges.

 

[michael_aos]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

Since I'm "ready" to start shooting 338 Lapua now (I have the rifle, and all the misc pieces), it's probably a little late to change direction.

I'm a little more curious to hear thoughts on switching to 338 Norma once this factory barrel is shot out.

Or is it sort of like 6.5 Creedmore -vs- 260 Remington? No point in switching if you already have one of them.

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

The advantage as I see it is having more flexability in oal with similar ballistic performance when using a magazine. The effiency of the NM case and the fact that the bullet stays out of the powder column. Of course the advantage goes to the LM if you plan on loading everything single shot and use a custom reamer for the chamber to take advantage of the extra volume inside of the LM case.

 

[mudvayne]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

Ive had both..NM all the way brother. It trully is a superior case design. Barrel life, and accuracy both, are much better. Ive shot mine to 2520 and it did pretty darn good considering the conditions and wind.

 

[95LTZ]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

Having shot both cartridges. I sold my 338 Lapua stuff & am now shooting a 338 Norma Mag variant. As was stated earlier, if the Lapua is a single shot & you can seat the bullet out. Then the Lapua has more powder capacity which will almost always give you more speed.
Semper Fi

 

[BigNoise]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

Mudvayne (and others):

What kind of brass life are you getting/expecting to get with the Norma?

I know the Lapua brass has a reputation for giving a dozen+ reloads...would like to see how the Norma compares.

 

[mudvayne]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

My brass has about 10 firings on it now and have only culled about 4 pieces due to lose primer pockets. Besides that the brass from the lot I have is doing very well.

 

[95LTZ]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

I have the initial forming load & then 5 loadings since the forming load. I anneal after each firing & have not lost a single piece of brass as of yet. I will fire some of them for the seventh time tomorrow.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 95LTZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have the initial forming load & then 5 loadings since the forming load. I anneal after each firing & have not lost a single piece of brass as of yet. I will fire some of them for the seventh time tomorrow. </div></div>

Why do you have to form 338 NM?

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 95LTZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I sold my 338 Lapua stuff & am now shooting a 338 Norma Mag variant. </div></div>

States here, he is shooting a vatiant of the NM.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

Thanks.

 

[michael_aos]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

If Savage had offered the choice between the two, I probably would have gone with the 338 Norma.

I guess now that I have this Savage 110BA in 338 Lapua, I'm going to just plan on shooting the heck out of it and revisit the cartridge when it's time to rebarrel.

The 300 Norma Mag looks pretty interesting too...
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[9H_Cracka]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

If you'd really rather shoot the Norma, have Lilja make you a screw on barrel, sell the 338LM barrel here, and move on.

Life is too short to wallow in regret and perceived compromise.

 

[Donald]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

The 338 norma gives up nothing to the 338 lapua in performance and the norma seems to be much more efficent in shorter barrels, but the big plus is how easily the norma fits into standard magazine lengths allowing people to seat the long 300gr bullets out to max length for best results.

 

[michael_aos]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

I had read that one of the primary design goals of the 338 Norma was to accommodate the 300gr-class bullets in a 3.6" COAL.

Unfortunately, I had the impression this limitation wasn't really an issue with 338 Lapua loaded out to ~3.7" to ~3.8".

338 Norma brass is ~2.5" and 338 Lapua brass is ~2.724, so I just didn't think it would be that big a deal. I didn't account for the longer neck of the 338 Norma though.

--

 

[cali_tz]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skinney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i did plenty of research before building my norma... i can seat the 300 OTM's mag length in the AICS, right @ 3.634 i can get a tad longer but sometimes get some feeding issues... the case seems more efficient, as i can push the 300grn bullet @ 2900 fps with roughly 86.5 of RL22, you really cant beat it, even with the lapua... especially if you can pull .5 moa... </div></div>

How do you explain the efficiency improvement given the smaller case, or at least the lesser powder quantity? In the end, enough force has to be built up to push that 300gn to 2900, which would be impossibly fast for most 338 Lapua off the shelf rifles. To get 300gn bullet to go 2735 fps I use 92.0 grains of N570. To get it to 2900 I'd have to blow the gun up I think or shoot it at 7000 feet ASL. So if you are getting enough heat/pressure to get it to 2900 I don't see why the Norma throat would last any longer than the Lapua throat?

 

[skinney_7]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cali_tz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skinney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i did plenty of research before building my norma... i can seat the 300 OTM's mag length in the AICS, right @ 3.634 i can get a tad longer but sometimes get some feeding issues... the case seems more efficient, as i can push the 300grn bullet @ 2900 fps with roughly 86.5 of RL22, you really cant beat it, even with the lapua... especially if you can pull .5 moa... </div></div>

How do you explain the efficiency improvement given the smaller case, or at least the lesser powder quantity? In the end, enough force has to be built up to push that 300gn to 2900, which would be impossibly fast for most 338 Lapua off the shelf rifles. To get 300gn bullet to go 2735 fps I use 92.0 grains of N570. To get it to 2900 I'd have to blow the gun up I think or shoot it at 7000 feet ASL. So if you are getting enough heat/pressure to get it to 2900 I don't see why the Norma throat would last any longer than the Lapua throat? </div></div>
i never said anything about the throat... point is i'm getting 2900fps and your not... out of what??? a smaller case...right???

 

[ganyana]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

One of the important designs criteria for the .338 NM was barrel life, which US military tests have shown as roughly twice that of the .338 Lap.

Alot of that has to do with shoulder angle and neck length- are you directing the flame into the case neck and then into the bore behind the bullet or into the throat and then into the bore?

I had NOTHING to do with the design of the .338 Norma but it is a darn fine round. And yes, the design specifications specifically called for the 300grn SMK as the optimal bullet.

After this weeks trials by SAKO hopefully they will begin offering rifles in .338 NM ( they averaged 4 ½" for a series of 10 shot groups at 900m in tests this week).

 

[skinney_7]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr Don Heath D.Sc.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ( they averaged 4 ½" for a series of 10 shot groups at 900m in tests this week). </div></div>

i can see this, i just shot a 3 shot group @ 1200yds that was right @ 5"... great round this norma is turning out to be.

 

[pinzmann]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

IS the head dia the same on both cases? If I wanted to change from one to the other would I have to change bolts?

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

No, you don't have to change bolts.

 

[V-Ref]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skinney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i did plenty of research before building my norma... i can seat the 300 OTM's mag length in the AICS, right @ 3.634 i can get a tad longer but sometimes get some feeding issues... the case seems more efficient, as i can push the 300grn bullet @ 2900 fps with roughly 86.5 of RL22, you really cant beat it, even with the lapua... especially if you can pull .5 moa... </div></div>

Skinny-I did too before mine was built, but didn't see velocities anywhere close to what you and others have spoke of out of 27" 10 twist Lilja. In fact, I'm thinking about rebarreling it to a 300 Norma....

Do you mind posting the specifics of what it takes to sling a 300 gr bullet at 2900 fps with a Norma? How are you determining your muzzle velocity?

 

[The Animal]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: V-Ref</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skinney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i did plenty of research before building my norma... i can seat the 300 OTM's mag length in the AICS, right @ 3.634 i can get a tad longer but sometimes get some feeding issues... the case seems more efficient, as i can push the 300grn bullet @ 2900 fps with roughly 86.5 of RL22, you really cant beat it, even with the lapua... especially if you can pull .5 moa... </div></div>

Skinny-I did too before mine was built, but didn't see velocities anywhere close to what you and others have spoke of out of 27" 10 twist Lilja. In fact, I'm thinking about rebarreling it to a 300 Norma....

Do you mind posting the specifics of what it takes to sling a 300 gr bullet at 2900 fps with a Norma? How are you determining your muzzle velocity?
</div></div>

I'm getting 2800fps with 300gr Berger Hybrids with N570, F215M, 91.0 gr, Bartlein SS 5R, 26 inch with no signs of being over pressure. Extremely accurate load in a couple of 338 Norma's that I've shot.

Disclosure: Anybody else using this combo may have different experience so for safety start 5-10% lower and work up.

 

[raptor99]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

Can you build these on a Remington long action without any problems??? Thanks guys!

 

[260shtr]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

I built a 300 NM on a REM 700 long action. Opened the boltface up and added a Sako extractor. No problems.

 

[skinney_7]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: V-Ref</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Skinny-I did too before mine was built, but didn't see velocities anywhere close to what you and others have spoke of out of 27" 10 twist Lilja. In fact, I'm thinking about rebarreling it to a 300 Norma....

Do you mind posting the specifics of what it takes to sling a 300 gr bullet at 2900 fps with a Norma? How are you determining your muzzle velocity?
</div></div>
sure thing man...
i'm running a 1-9.3, 28" Broughton, and the best velocities i could get was using 86 grains of RL-22, the data shows this is overpressure, but i am not getting flat primers, or stiff bolt, and still under .004 of web expansion... i talked with Richard P. McKinney @ Schuetzen Gun Company, he advised me to start with low 80's of RL-22 and work up to 85 or so, and to pay special attention to the primers... every powder, every charge i threw @ this rifle still held under .75 moa, with most groups being .5 moa... my muzzle velocity is determined by a shooting chrony, as well as the CED M2.

 

[Cheese]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: raptor99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can you build these on a Remington long action without any problems??? Thanks guys! </div></div>

Asolutely.
I have a MK13 variant chambered in .338NM.
The cartridge was designed to operate well within pressure specs for a Rem long action.
That is a direct quote from Mr. Sloan the developer of the .338NM.

 

[Dirty D]

Re: 338 Norma -vs- 338 Lapua (Savage 110BA)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cheese</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The cartridge was designed to operate well within pressure specs for a Rem long action. That is a direct quote from Mr. Sloan the developer of the .338NM.</div></div>

Some PSI numbers
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr Don Heath D.Sc.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes- 430mPa which translates to 62,367 PSI

Using our brass a 2 thou case head expansion with new (unfired ) brass very closely equates to 62,000 PSI </div></div>
eta: The quote from Dr Heath is from a PM I sent him asking about the chamber pressures of the 338NM. (I truly love a site where I can interact with industry leaders (remembering to be respectful of their time)).

By comparison the 300 WinMag runs
Maximum pressure 64,000 psi (440 MPa)
Maximum CUP 54,000 CUP

The 338NM max pressure is less than a 300WM max pressure.

 

[alman1531]

I figured I would resurrect this thread to get some updated information. I am looking into the possibility down the road of an AXMC .338 rifle and the Lapua and the Norma stand out. What are the pros and cons of each? Earlier the barrel life of the Norma over the Lapua was mentioned. What are the velocity differences if any? The Norma case looks much smaller than the Lapua so I am curious as to how the velocities stack up.

 

[garandman]

My research lead to 338NM.


No regrets.

 

[xdeano]

Depends on barrel length, but given the same bullet and barrel, the velocity node in each should be the same with the same barrel length. But all barrels arent the same. So mine is going to differ then yours.

That being said my node is 2735fps with a 300grn berger. In a 26" barrel with the nm.

If you want velocity go after a 338 snipetac. But barrel life will suffer. I kind of wish i would have gone the snipetac route because besides brass and powder costs being a little more, everything else is the same. Maybe next time.

I do like the mild recoil though. Ive got a buddy that had neck surgery and he shot 3 rounds through mine about 4 weeks after surgery and he said it wasnt bad at all.

Xdeano

 

[ahhshoot]

I have similar issues with regards to the mag length with my 338 LM. I am not sure why AI made the mags this length. My 338 Lapua max COAL is around 3.615. This puts my max repeater length a full 3/10's of an inch off the lands according to my gauge. Still, the gun shoots great. Attached is a group shot at 500 yards. This wasn't cherry picked, this is pretty standard and often times the gun will do better. We just sighted in for 500 and shot a group. I am not going to bother loading them closer to the lands because I want a repeater. But one has to wonder if greater accuracy could have been attained if the mag length allowed for longer OAL. Oh well, perhaps when this barrel is done, it will be time to go 338 Norma...

 

[bjay]

Is there such thing 338nm improved? 30* shoulder?

 

[vh20]

I figured I would resurrect this thread to get some updated information. I am looking into the possibility down the road of an AXMC .338 rifle and the Lapua and the Norma stand out. What are the pros and cons of each? Earlier the barrel life of the Norma over the Lapua was mentioned. What are the velocity differences if any? The Norma case looks much smaller than the Lapua so I am curious as to how the velocities stack up.

The Norma case isn't really smaller than the Lapua. Both use the 416 Rigby as the parent case. The Norma IS a bit shorter than the Lapua, but if you look closely you will see that it has no taper like the Lapua does, and this makes up for the difference in length. I can't remember if they have EXACTLY the same capacity, but if not the difference is minimal.

Biggest advantage of the Norma is that you can load a 300 gr. bullet to mag length and have the base of the bullet out of the powder column, while at the same time matching the Lapua for velocity. That was, after all, the design goal.

 

[Kiwi Greg]

I have both & have built both.

I really like the Norma magnum, the only draw back I can see with the Norma mag is the lack of case taper.

My Barrett 98B that I re-barrelled into 338 NM appears to have little or no primary extraction, once the brass has been fired a few times it gets extremely hard to extract even when the load is backed off.

 

[Mj1995]

My research lead to 338NM.


No regrets.

Could we see some pictures of this beast?

 

[284winner]

10 grain difference is case capacity

 

[Aftermath]

10 grain difference is case capacity

 

[284winner]

Nothing is ever dead on shooting forums except members. That's unfortunate.

 

[Kramer93]

Bringing this back to life... the lapua looks bigger and badder, why is everyone recommending the norma? Case taper is around .020" per inch on the lapua from my measurements. Do I hog this out to a .30-338 Lapua improved, or go with a .30-338 normal improved?

 

[Kramer93]

*norma. I promise I'm not regarded.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Do I hog this out to a .30-338 Lapua improved, or go with a .30-338 normal improved?

My dog's name is Norma, after a 6 pack I start calling her Normal. She loves me either way.

 

[Bhobbs]

Bringing this back to life... the lapua looks bigger and badder, why is everyone recommending the norma? Case taper is around .020" per inch on the lapua from my measurements. Do I hog this out to a .30-338 Lapua improved, or go with a .30-338 normal improved?

It’s like the .260 Rem vs the 6.5 Creedmoor. The .260 has more case capacity but the 6.5 Creedmoor was designed to keep longer bullets out of the powder column. The Lapua has more case capacity, but the Norma can use the longer bullets more efficiently.

 

[surgeon260]

Why would you do a 30-338 Norma improved when you could just do a 300 Norma improved?

 

[MACHTECH]

I think I might just be able to put this thread to bed once and for all.

 

[bbhank]

Is there such thing 338nm improved? 30* shoulder?

Yeah I have one. Here is the formed brass! Mine runs 300grain bergers up to 3120FPs.

 

[surgeon260]

300s at 3120 out of a Norma improved? There is no way that is safe. That is XC territory.

 

[Kramer93]

Why would you do a 30-338 Norma improved when you could just do a 300 Norma improved?

Whiskey and a touch of the 'tism made me forget the 300 Norma was already a thing, and that they are the same case. 300 Norma improved sounds like the winner. Is there another big .30 I should consider that has a Lapua bolt face and fits in a 3.760" magazine with something like a Berger 230 or 245?