375 Viersco Mag

[goober]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been testing the projectiles in 338 against 3 other solids at the same time and there has been some promising results but there is a small issue that hopefuly will be finalised with the next batch of projectiles. I have fired 5 different variations and one realy showed promise but there is a small thingthat requires a mod and we have talked about that hopefuly it will work out as i have a 375VM going together right now and realy would love to be using them if they come out on top. the BC is a lot higher than any other projectile that will stabalise in a 10 twist 338 i can tell you that but hopefuly this will all become fixed and the tweek will make the bullet a succsess. I am objective in my testing and have no affiliation to Nick besides him asking me to test his projectiles for him and report the true results and they are doccumented with pictures of the groups at ranges and the data obtained. I will not publish the data as it is for Nick but the concept is showing some promise.

</div></div>Hey Wild Bill I would love to know abit more about the promising 338projectiles Nick is making .I realize you would want Nik to launch them into the public domain if succesful but what kind of distances are you shooting and what accuracy are you achieving so far ? Your rifle -length of barrel and twist ?

 

[Mendocino]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

This is a great development for ELR shooting. The HTI implications are significant. I look forward to learning more about the 375VM.

 

[Dogtown]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

FWIW, it takes a special kind of bullet to make an ELR rifle capable of HTI applications. These and other lathed solids do not fit that profile and it's the #1 reason the .408CT, early on, wasn't capable of HTI applications. At a minimum you need AP capability and often composite rounds (AP/I/Exp) are preferred.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Dogtown,

Your point is well placed... with one qualification that would be worth adding.

The solid turned manufacturing process lends itself quite naturally to "shell" configuration... ie., combined tungsten/pyrotechnic loads, that permit equivalent CG/mass properties of a solid projectile counterparts.

It is a capability that I am utilizing.

 

[Dogtown]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Agreed Noel, it's just that most of the development of HTI capable bullets along these lines has been done more or less out of view of the public. My point was to try to correct the impression that any ELR rifle is capable of HTI applications. The HTI mission requirements are one of the main reasons .50BMG is still the king of <span style="font-style: italic">that</span> hill.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Dogtown,

From the standpoint of explosive payload, you are dead-on regarding the 50 caliber being a threshold minimum capacity.

 

[Jong]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Any new updates?

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

12/16/10:
"This has been in the works for quite awhile... The bullets shown are the GS Custom 414 gn... I have been using the Mk1's for initial velocity tests. Mk2's will be used for actual accuracy testing."...

Dave,

Eight and one-half months ago this thread was initiated as the introduction of a new system that was designed from the "ground up".

I took quite a bit of flak for asking questions directed at the viability of certain core elements, specifically; I challenged the rifling geometry's suitability for the intended application, and the fundamental soundness of the GSC projectile configuration. Your response was to hedge answers under some notion of "respect" for a contributor to this project, and retort with an entirely unfounded assertion that I caused you to lose "two" sales cancelled by European customers by failing to deliver ZA projectiles to the public in a timely manner.

Within the next few months, there will be a (very) publicly documented demonstration of the design principles that this "system" attempted to emulate. GSC will be invited as a participant.

Are you any closer to having something to show?

 

[goober]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

I am sure many have been awaiting an out come for this project as it is off the richter scale exciting !!!

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Che,

Not to put too fine a point on the issue, but it does not take nearly nine months to "check for actual accuracy".

Either the projectile has a 1.0+ BC, with long-range stability, or it does not. If it does not, then this is not a viable ULR "system"... period.

If the latter situation prevails (and I have good reason to believe it does), then this would be the time for frank aknowledgement as this thread was represented to be an honest reporting of field testing.

On the off chance that I am wrong, Mr. Viers has an excellent opportunity to demonstrate as much by running his rounds over target chronographs under objective oversight relatively soon.

 

[goober]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Noel it has to be said there is an airy silence from Dave concerning this project and the projectiles to be used. i was hoping groper comes up with a new projo but they have not been perfected as yet --at least he has informed us honestly of his results.What are you working on ?

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Che,

You will have the a projectile/barrel system available to you, at a cost that will surprise most ELR shooters, before the year is out.

I have made preliminary inquiries into potential distributors for Australia, and New Zealand. If you have any suggestions please PM me.

 

[Dogtown]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Nice...I sure am glad I'm paid in NZD

 

[goober]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dogtown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice...I sure am glad I'm paid in NZD

</div></div>I may just be subsonic as I didn't get that Dogtown ?

 

[Dogtown]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

USD is pretty weak right now, so buying a rifle from the States is an enticing option.

 

[goober]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

aah ,yes it much more favourable for sure!

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Hi ch'e

i have been busy and away from the forum for a while and Dave Viers has been under water flodded out that is why you have not heard anything from Dave.

As regards to Nicks projectiles there is one small area that needs modification on the boat tail before the project can move forward it is a very small modification but it is having major implications to the consistancy. i realy can not disclose the issue because of confidentuality and that is Nics area he owns the design.

Noel if you are serious about an Australian Agent we import Rock Creek, Lawton, Benchmare, Defiance Machine, Seekins Precision, Accushot products and XLR industries for the Australian and New Zealand markets and manufacture custom rifles for target and long range shooting so send me a PM when you have your products sourted out i am sure we could work something out as we are importing hundreds of barrels and actions a year as well as stocks triggers projectiles and more.

There is also another 420gr projectile in testing there in the US for the 375's it should have a BC right around 1. with a small hollow point or as a solid these are in the final stages of testing and have a lot of promise they have been kept to around 1. bc and do not have realy wild ogives to make sure they work. also there is an alloy tipped 425gr 375 that is showing prommise in testing aswell.

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

WB,

Is the New Zealand market very closely tied to Australia's in the area of firearms? In the limited exploration conducted thus far, it appears NZ has a much more favorable political environment for small arms use generally.

Yes, I am serious.

What company are you with, and will you be at the Shot Show this year? Perhaps we could arrange a hands-on demo for you.

Best,
Noel

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Bill,

Scratch the earlier questions, I am pretty sure that I know who you are.

I will try to get in touch with Geoff this evening, or tomorrow.

Best,
Noel

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Hi Noel

geoff just called to say you rang i was picking my son up from school.

I do know you are serious about this that is why i mentioned it and Geoff will talk to you over Skype.

As for NZ and Australia in NZ they have a lot less restrictions than here but we can own anything under the dealers licence and to ship from Australia to NZ just requires us to post it with a declaration for parts so it is very easy to send things from Australia to NZ we have to send another 2 packages of accesories tomorrow.

 

[goober]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Thanks for the update Wildbill, I was wondering what had happened to both Dave and Groper .I see you are doing XLR industries stocks -are you sending them to NZ to Tracey Short ?

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

We are sending them to NZ ch'e not sure of the name off the top of my head i would have to check who has them ordered.

Noel i am sending you a PM

 

[BandBullets]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

I'm thinking the reason there is no balance in the bullet because the rifling on the bullet is uneven when the bullet leaves the barrel in relation to the propeller blade. Shoot a round retrieve it and see how the bottom end looks like and get it balance tested cut the mashed front tip off and you'll see that's most likely an unbalanced bottom try making it so the propellers don't ouch the rifling so the don't distort the airodynamics on the way out good luck, I'm from Australia also

 

[wPAShooter1]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

I must say i just started reading about this and am amazed. I cant wait to hear the final results from this. I was going to start a 338 LM build but after reading all of this i think i will wait. Any info you can send me in regards to this i would greatly appreciate it.

 

[JustPlinking]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Any updates? I know there are many of us with the go big bug. Most the ranges near me have nothing over 40cal limit, shitting on the big Barrets. This beast would be a welcomed option. Any more info would be appreciated.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Any news? The .375VM looks bad to the bone! Dave if you read this: are there any plans to neck it down to a .338 Viersco Mag? That would be extra nasty, and theres already some very good LR projos out there for it. Also, do you know of a man named Kirby Allen? He does some great work and his XHS in .338 Allen Mag/Snipe-tac AI is top notch. How would the .375VM compare to the .338 AM, both at full-tilt?

BTW, contrary to what it says on the site, Mr. Allen says he had to use a ~.9 BC to match the true bullet drop for the 300SMK shot out of his .338AM at 34000-3500 fps or so I think it was.

 

[goober]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

You would wonder about the seriousness of this project wouldnt you given a thread started on the 16/12/10 and to date there really is nothing happening???

 

[bribri]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

I live 30 miles from Viersco, I was just there a couple of weeks ago and I believe he is still waiting on another barrel for testing.

 

[Augustus]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

The last thing you need is a 338 with more case capacity than a Chey-tac. You can't use all the capacity with BMG or 869 w/o blowing things up. Unless there is a powder available that I don't know about you will be pissing in the wind.

 

[ELR researcher]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

In response to an e-mail I sent to Dave Viers today (23 Jan 2012) about the status of the 375 VM, he responded:

"Yes that is correct, the 375 VM (long neck version) is complete. I just don't have a lot of time to keep updating the message boards. I am working on a separate version of the 375 VM, it will be a 40 deg shoulder and .350 long neck. This was done to cater to the long range hunters. The long neck version was developed for Military sniper apps. The case is more friendly for a repeater type rifle on a BMG frame as it needs added length with the long bullets seated. The improved version will work better in a standard type action, single shot."

 

[wPAShooter1]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Oh wow very nice i cant wait to see more about this.

 

[Donald]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

I wonder if hes doing the 40 degree because he didn't get the velocity he thought he should out of the long neck version?? It will be interesting what powder is useful in this new case as US869 gave hang fires and 50 BMG didn't seen to give great velocity?

 

[goober]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

What are the possible powders one can use for this beast

 

[viersco]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

When i went to the 40 deg shoulder the whole project came together rather fast. what was lacking with the 30 deg shoulder has improved vastly. US869 is a great powder in warmer temps or use a hot box. BMG50 is outstanding, no issues at all. The burn rate is very consistant and shows the highest velocity with everything tested so far. I just got the new RL-50 powder in, i will be running tests this weekend. It takes more time to do all this than one thinks. Barrel makers just dont have stock laying around for barrels of this types. I had special tooling made for the barrel makers to deliver test barrels. Only a few were even interested in working with me on this. I would of liked to get a gain twist barrel for testing, but Bartlien is just too busy to accomodate. The early test barrels came from Lawton and none of them were up to spec. I then had to wait for Lilja to get his tooling along with Bench Mark. Late last fall i recieved my barrels, 10 twist and a 8 twist. I have the Lilja 10 twist on right now. When i am done with this round of tests i will install the 8 twist and do some heavy bullet tests. I have a 9 twist from Lilja on order, this also is new tooling.

I used a 10 twist lawton take off barrel for case forming, it was originally a 375 snipetac but would not shoot any bullet. At 33.5" i didnt think it would be long enough to get any velocity, in the original design a 32" did not perform at all.
I fire formed up 20 pieces of brass to start my tests with the VM2 chamber. I decied while i had the barrel on the rifle i would run a few loads through it and see what the vel was. I did not intend to do any accuracy tests as i allready know the barrel will not shoot. I had some early design 375gn cutting edge bullets that Dan sent for tests. I used the same recipe as i did in the 38" lawton barrel (original case) to see what the difference might be in the shorter barrel and sharper case design. I was shocked! There was 200fps jump with the new case, 3350fps 375gn bullet in the short barrel. It was time then to install the new Lilja barrel, 42" 10 twist. My plan was start long and cut back to see how the burn rate changes and find the spot where you can get the best vel and shortest barrel. This will be more important to the hunters as they dont what to carry around a 38" barreled rifle. I called up Dan at Cutting Edge and had him ship me 50 of each of his 350gnHP, 352gn, 375gnHP and 377gn bullets for testing. I did not install the muzzle brake during the first round of tests, mistake! Even at 26# this thing is a beast. I did a huge amount of tests, 200yd and 535yd tests with no brake. I gathered a lot of data using 5 powder types. Retumbo, BMG50, US869, WC872 and VV20N29. I then cut the barrel back 4" to 38" and installed the brake. I only ran a few prelim tests on sunday to see how the vel changed. The only real change was with the slow powders, BMG50 actully increased 40 fps in the shorter barrel. The 350gn bullet was the one i tested. I ran some loads close to 3700fps, but that is not practical. I wanted to see how the case reacted to the hot load, it stuck in the barrel and i needed to use a rod to drive it out. I resized the case and the primer pocket had no damage at all, still tight as a new case. These 20 cases have at least 10 loadings on them so far and i have only annealed them. I lowered the loads down to 3450fps and it is a nice load that the bolt will open with one finger. I shot one group at 535 with it and it was just under .5moa
I still think the barrel is over length for the BMG powder, when all testing is done i will cut off 2" more and run the tests again. For those who are using this as a long range hunter, 34-36" barrel will be optimum, 350 to 375gn bullets.
I have some 370 RockyMountain bullets that will be tested this weekend also. I shot one sunday just before dark to see what the pressures would be vs the solid bullet. The Rcky Mtn bullet has a longer bareing surface and thought it might have a quicker pressure spike, i used a few grains under what i was running the375 solids at. The Rcky Mtn shot off just under 3300fps with no pressure at all. These have a higher BC than others i have been testing. The only thing will be how they hold up to the extra velocity that i can push them.

So it all apears for now the BMG50 powder is getting a full burn in the 38" barrel, how short i can go will only tell with a whole lot of testing. And the Reloader 50 powder, how will it react? Both powders are extruded. VV20N29 is to slow for light bullets, 400+ grain bullets. I have some 425gn Rocky Mtn bullets to test also, they have a est BC over 1.00 this case should perform very well with the heavier bullets. What twist rate will work the best? It all comes down to real world tests.

I will try and keep up some posts here, more info is and will be updated all the time on my website.

Cheers
Dave

 

[Master Diver]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Dave,

Thanks for the update - it all sounds very promising.
I look forward to hearing more about your work progress with the WM2 and the different bullets.


Cheers,

Master Diver

 

[Chandalar]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Congratulations Dave, amazing work! I can only imagine the potential of this cartridge and the bullets to follow!

 

[paul2atlo8]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Been following your project from the begining looks like your almost there, good work!

 

[Donald]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

I wonder what the barrel life will be like with the big 375 VM ??

 

[goober]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rocky Mountain</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder what the barrel life will be like with the big 375 VM ?? </div></div>One,maybe two shots if ya lucky-youd betta be rich too

 

[viersco]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rocky Mountain</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder what the barrel life will be like with the big 375 VM ?? </div></div>One,maybe two shots if ya lucky-youd betta be rich too </div></div>

Its just the difference of driving a Ford Focus vs a Maserati! Top Fuel dragsters are fun too!

 

[BandBullets]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

What happened to the 414g GS

 

[pyrofx]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Ok bullets guru's . How about a leadloy steel bullet like we used for the 50 cal for so many years . They were the king of the hill until Bill died and quit making them .

greg

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Greg,

There is nothing wrong with using leaded steel... provided you are willing to sacrifice ~12% on the mass, and increase the spin-rate commensurately.

At 1,000 yards this might not be such a bad idea given the gain in velocity, and the cost savings over copper, brass, or bronze.

 

[BandBullets]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

? To people out there isn't it better if you bring the load back to 3100 and increase the twist to say 1/8.5 or more and to compensate for the flight time in the air where wind will be an factor slap in an heavier bullet. Similar to the 7mm wsm and rem where they put 180g rounds and a 1/7 twist, just curiuos

 

[Noel Carlson]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Greg,

You are thinking along the right lines. It really depends on the maximum range that you intend to shoot at.

The problem that you will run into with Ledaloy is that at 400 grains, the weight that a Cheytac case can drive a bullet at the approximate velocity which you stated, magnus force destabilization overwhelms any practical gyroscopic stabilization that can be imparted due to excessive projectile length.

 

[BandBullets]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

Thanks, also looked up Magnus force reading up on it, cheers

 

[Fotis]

Re: 375 Viersco Mag

WOW what a cannon!