.380 win small rifle primers discussion and questions.

Snarky

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Minuteman
Nov 5, 2024
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Maryland
i recently started reloading and was wondering what primers to use with my .308 srp alpha brass. also powder recommendations.
i will be shooting berger 168 hybrid or the 175 lrbt bullets.

i have read that the magnum srp will affect pressure data, but the regular srp sometimes dont like the cold.
^ is it safe to use magnum srp or start with regular srp?

i dont know if i should be using magnum srp or standard with this brass. the powders i was going to chose from where - varget, h4895, imr 4064, imr 4895, or n140 based on quickload % fill, speeds and pressure. i still have not decided on what powder or brand of primer i will use, so recommendations would be great.
 
From my experience, using a magnum vs a standard primer made very, very little difference in velocity (hence, pressure). What I have found is that velocity is far more consistent with the magnum primers. Also, with my 223 Ackley, using standard primers, every once in a while a primer would pierce and the magnum primers have never done that. Maybe the metal is thicker? Otherwise, I think you can pretty much just use whichever.
 
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Unless you are shooting a near max load on a hot day you will probably not see any significant velocity/pressure effect. Remember that about the largest design SRP case is designed for about 30gn of powder and you are looking at 40-50 gn in a 308.
 
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I didn't see a speed difference but with my Alpha SRP brass I could get a hotter load.
CCI 400's just seemed to pierce way too soon. The 450's were much happier. N540 powder with 185 bergers.
 
Been using small mag primers (CCI450) in 308palma brass and 6.5 CM for years in temps from below zero to above 100° and never had any issues.
I had compared them to more expensive match SR primers and couldn't see any benefit so have just stuck with the CCI-450'S and yes the cups are thicker than and harder than some other SRP.
1737934681158.png
 
What speed were you getting with N540 and 185’s
2540 was my sweet spot. I got them up to 2625 but there was bolt lift issues and the SD's sucked. At the 2540 load I was averaging 5.8 fps SD. I will say the alpha brass didn't show signs until it was on the ragged edge, so to protect it I layed off. With the non mag primers I was piercing at 2450ish. I acknowledge this was a hot load as per Vhit. But berger says I was just below max.
 
i recently started reloading and was wondering what primers to use with my .308 srp alpha brass. also powder recommendations.
i will be shooting berger 168 hybrid or the 175 lrbt bullets.

i have read that the magnum srp will affect pressure data, but the regular srp sometimes dont like the cold.
^ is it safe to use magnum srp or start with regular srp?

i dont know if i should be using magnum srp or standard with this brass. the powders i was going to chose from where - varget, h4895, imr 4064, imr 4895, or n140 based on quickload % fill, speeds and pressure. i still have not decided on what powder or brand of primer i will use, so recommendations would be great.
Getting into this myself, from my research, all this depends...it depends on what you're trying to do. For example if you're shooting a "gallery load", with a slower burning powder, I doubt it matters if you use magnums at all as you're no where near max pressure. However if you're using a fast burning powder, in a match chamber, and the case fill is fairly low, I'd bet it absolutely makes a noticeable difference.

If you're aim is accuracy, I doubt you're going to be playing around max load anyway but sometimes you're able to get up there and have tight groups.... backing up a bit, with a powder choice that's of a average burn rate for that cartridge and bulky enough to have excellent case fill, I think this minimizes issues with small rifle primers. A lot of the reason persons concerned about tight groups don't suggest magnum primers is less concerned about pressure IMO and more concerned with consistency of ignition AND a higher amount of "jump" if you will... I know for a fact a primer is enough to push a bullet out of the case on it's own, the higher the brisance of the primer's compound and the more of it, the worse this affect is. Meaning before the or as the powder is taking off, the volume of the area the powder has to burn in, is rapidly expanding, it is MY opinion this will cause a variable that's not going to be consistent from firing to firing, or at least not as much so as a configuration that minimizes this. Keep in mind the guys shooting one sub .3 MOA groups don't even touch the projectiles when loading them as the average fingerprint weighs something like 0.001 grain (so I have heard, another online source says about 50 micrograms. Nothing really, but at 201,600rpm it is a variable that may make a difference or no difference but enough tiny negligible variations removed and you, if you and your equipment is up to par, may then start to see a meaningful difference.

So again, it seems to be the real question is, what are you trying to do? Just load a round to send down range for plinking? For hunting within 400 yards? Bench rest competition?
 
Getting into this myself, from my research, all this depends...it depends on what you're trying to do. For example if you're shooting a "gallery load", with a slower burning powder, I doubt it matters if you use magnums at all as you're no where near max pressure. However if you're using a fast burning powder, in a match chamber, and the case fill is fairly low, I'd bet it absolutely makes a noticeable difference.

If you're aim is accuracy, I doubt you're going to be playing around max load anyway but sometimes you're able to get up there and have tight groups.... backing up a bit, with a powder choice that's of a average burn rate for that cartridge and bulky enough to have excellent case fill, I think this minimizes issues with small rifle primers. A lot of the reason persons concerned about tight groups don't suggest magnum primers is less concerned about pressure IMO and more concerned with consistency of ignition AND a higher amount of "jump" if you will... I know for a fact a primer is enough to push a bullet out of the case on it's own, the higher the brisance of the primer's compound and the more of it, the worse this affect is. Meaning before the or as the powder is taking off, the volume of the area the powder has to burn in, is rapidly expanding, it is MY opinion this will cause a variable that's not going to be consistent from firing to firing, or at least not as much so as a configuration that minimizes this. Keep in mind the guys shooting one sub .3 MOA groups don't even touch the projectiles when loading them as the average fingerprint weighs something like 0.001 grain (so I have heard, another online source says about 50 micrograms. Nothing really, but at 201,600rpm it is a variable that may make a difference or no difference but enough tiny negligible variations removed and you, if you and your equipment is up to par, may then start to see a meaningful difference.

So again, it seems to be the real question is, what are you trying to do? Just load a round to send down range for plinking? For hunting within 400 yards? Bench rest competition?
Weight of a fingerprint. . .really?

How much does the rubbing alcohol weigh that you use to wipe the fingerprint off?
 
i recently started reloading and was wondering what primers to use with my .308 srp alpha brass. also powder recommendations.
i will be shooting berger 168 hybrid or the 175 lrbt bullets.

i have read that the magnum srp will affect pressure data, but the regular srp sometimes dont like the cold.
^ is it safe to use magnum srp or start with regular srp?

i dont know if i should be using magnum srp or standard with this brass. the powders i was going to chose from where - varget, h4895, imr 4064, imr 4895, or n140 based on quickload % fill, speeds and pressure. i still have not decided on what powder or brand of primer i will use, so recommendations would be great.
Getting into this myself, from my research, all this depends...it depends on what you're trying to do. For example if you're shooting a "gallery load", with a slower burning powder, I doubt it matters if you use magnums at all as you're no where near max pressure. However if you're using a fast burning powder, in a match chamber, and the case fill is fairly low, I'd bet it absolutely makes a noticeable difference.

If you're aim is accuracy, I doubt you're going to be playing around max load anyway but sometimes you're able to get up there and have tight groups.... backing up a bit, with a powder choice that's of a average burn rate for that cartridge and bulky enough to have excellent case fill, I think this minimizes issues with small rifle primers. A lot of the reason persons concerned about tight groups don't suggest magnum primers is less concerned about pressure IMO and more concerned with consistency of ignition AND a higher amount of "jump" if you will... I know for a fact a primer is enough to push a bullet out of the case on it's own, the higher the brisance of the primer's compound and the more of it, the worse this affect is. Meaning before the or as the powder is taking off, the volume of the area the powder has to burn in, is rapidly expanding, it is MY opinion this will cause a variable that's not going to be consistent from firing to firing, or at least not as much so as a configuration that minimizes this. Keep in mind the guys shooting one sub .3 MOA groups don't even touch the projectiles when loading them as the average fingerprint weighs something like 0.001 grain (so I have heard, another online source says about 50 micrograms. Nothing really, but at 201,600rpm it is a variable that may make a difference or no difference but enough tiny negligible variations removed and you, if you and your equipment is up to par, may then start to see a meaningful difference.

So again, it seems to be the real question is, what are you trying to do? Just load a round to send down range for plinking? For hunting within 400 yards? Bench rest competition?
Weight of a fingerprint. . .really?

How much does the rubbing alcohol weigh that you use to wipe the fingerprint off?


I was just relaying information from Primalrights. Take it or leave it but his point is valid, you can control pretty much all the variables if you have the information, tools, patients and desire too except the air temperature, humidity, pressure and wind. The more variables the more likely flyers and larger groups are... dude aims for basically one hole groups.... like 1/4moa. Do what you want but the point was to point out that it depends on what you're wanting to do. Making plinking loads, it would be nuts to take things to that level... but if you're making match loads for competition, and the difference between the winner and the back of the pack is the difference in 1/4 MOA groups and .35MOA groups... yeah, I'd say take his advice... if you're pulling some pew pew larping crap with you're AR... probably better served not doing that.. Again depends on what you're doing and what you want from the load you're loading.....BTW wearing gloves isn't hard or a bad idea when loading. 🤷‍♂️
 
Getting into this myself, from my research, all this depends...it depends on what you're trying to do. For example if you're shooting a "gallery load", with a slower burning powder, I doubt it matters if you use magnums at all as you're no where near max pressure. However if you're using a fast burning powder, in a match chamber, and the case fill is fairly low, I'd bet it absolutely makes a noticeable difference.

If you're aim is accuracy, I doubt you're going to be playing around max load anyway but sometimes you're able to get up there and have tight groups.... backing up a bit, with a powder choice that's of a average burn rate for that cartridge and bulky enough to have excellent case fill, I think this minimizes issues with small rifle primers. A lot of the reason persons concerned about tight groups don't suggest magnum primers is less concerned about pressure IMO and more concerned with consistency of ignition AND a higher amount of "jump" if you will... I know for a fact a primer is enough to push a bullet out of the case on it's own, the higher the brisance of the primer's compound and the more of it, the worse this affect is. Meaning before the or as the powder is taking off, the volume of the area the powder has to burn in, is rapidly expanding, it is MY opinion this will cause a variable that's not going to be consistent from firing to firing, or at least not as much so as a configuration that minimizes this. Keep in mind the guys shooting one sub .3 MOA groups don't even touch the projectiles when loading them as the average fingerprint weighs something like 0.001 grain (so I have heard, another online source says about 50 micrograms. Nothing really, but at 201,600rpm it is a variable that may make a difference or no difference but enough tiny negligible variations removed and you, if you and your equipment is up to par, may then start to see a meaningful difference.

So again, it seems to be the real question is, what are you trying to do? Just load a round to send down range for plinking? For hunting within 400 yards? Bench rest competition?



I was just relaying information from Primalrights. Take it or leave it but his point is valid, you can control pretty much all the variables if you have the information, tools, patients and desire too except the air temperature, humidity, pressure and wind. The more variables the more likely flyers and larger groups are... dude aims for basically one hole groups.... like 1/4moa. Do what you want but the point was to point out that it depends on what you're wanting to do. Making plinking loads, it would be nuts to take things to that level... but if you're making match loads for competition, and the difference between the winner and the back of the pack is the difference in 1/4 MOA groups and .35MOA groups... yeah, I'd say take his advice... if you're pulling some pew pew larping crap with you're AR... probably better served not doing that.. Again depends on what you're doing and what you want from the load you're loading.....BTW wearing gloves isn't hard or a bad idea when loading. 🤷‍♂️
There's a lot of voodoo doo-doo regarding "precision" reloading. Perhaps clicking your heels in your ruby slippers might just send your shot into the center? I submit that a fingerprint causing you to lose a match is negligible and that the shot is more likely affected by environment and/or shooter's ability than the weight of a fingerprint.

Do you wear gloves while shooting your precious? There are so many things that can happen to your ammo in the journey from your loading bench, to the range, to your firearm's chamber that probably has more "impact" on your target than a fucking fingerprint. In the end, your ability to read wind, hold and break the shot is vastly more important than obsessing over minutia like fingerprints.

Greg Dykstra provides some good information. Usually it is tightly wrapped in a package containing BS and his ego.
 
There's a lot of voodoo doo-doo regarding "precision" reloading. Perhaps clicking your heels in your ruby slippers might just send your shot into the center? I submit that a fingerprint causing you to lose a match is negligible and that the shot is more likely affected by environment and/or shooter's ability than the weight of a fingerprint.

Do you wear gloves while shooting your precious? There are so many things that can happen to your ammo in the journey from your loading bench, to the range, to your firearm's chamber that probably has more "impact" on your target than a fucking fingerprint. In the end, your ability to read wind, hold and break the shot is vastly more important than obsessing over minutia like fingerprints.

Greg Dykstra provides some good information. Usually it is tightly wrapped in a package containing BS and his ego.
I think the fingerprint comment was tongue in cheek but it does have some merit. One of the "pet peeves" in reloading is charge weight accuracy and repeatability. People will expound on the value of an FX120i or a Satorious but never mention the importance of handling calibration weights and powder pans. In a lab environ you are taught never to handle calibration weights and anything you are going to weight with you bare hand. Reason is our hands have oil on the skin. This oil is transferred to anything we touch and it will add weight on its own and also attracts dust and holds it. In addition it can cause corrosion in rare instances which causes fluctuations in the weight of calibration weights. Now does it matter? That depends but the point is it can matter and it's something to think about if you are serious about making sure that that last grain of Varget is consistent!

Years ago, as a young engineer performing particulate testing on coal fired power plants I had this effect demonstrated to me. We were told to weigh a piece of filter paper and then too handle it a couple of times and then reweigh it. You then understood why the test procedure kept mentioning a gloved hand.
 
TLDR: You would be shocked at the tiny defects inside bullets that cause accuracy problems and how small the CG offsets and weights that are involved really are....

ETA: It takes on the order of 3 to 4 grains gross weight difference to get a 30 fps difference in the ES of a 180 gr class long range bullet, so we are not discussing fancy lab scales here.

A long time ago, in a place far far away....
When I was still very young and starting out in the defense business, there were folks who were way deep down inside the rabbit hole who were way out in front of the accuracy game and bullet details.

If you ever sat and spoke with folks like Walt Berger, Harold Vaughn, Bill Calfee, or the folks who were from The Old School of accuracy work via The School of Hard Knocks.... They would be able to sit for hours and speak about concepts that make one bullet accurate and the other a piece of trash.

Some of them would allow those of us from the defense industry to do their dynamic analysis for them in terms of the mass properties of their bullet designs. At one point I was wondering if an Eddy Current method I was using could be used and they told me it was already being done.

There was also a fellow named Verne Juenke who was a pretty sharp character who took it to heart and invented an machine that would "inspect" bullets using a concept that we also used on metallic components like critical ball bearings, gyro masses, tiny turbines, etc.. He produced and sold some of these for accuracy folks to sort their bullets.

Now to begin with, benchrest bullets in those days tended to run from little 20 cals to 30 cals, with 22, 6mm, and 30 being popular among the folks who were very serious and hand made their own.

The weights of these bullets was never very much and to understand how tiny the CG offset and inertial axes defects we are discussing takes a long time, so I will just say small, very small.

This machine would use an electromagnetic field effect to detect the oscillations of those errors while the bullet sample was spun. Because I was also concerned with spinning tiny parts at 6 to 7 digit RPMs it got my attention.

This was a cottage industry analog inspection tool made by a hobbyist that actually worked as good as the ones produced by major companies and defense corporation laboratories. It would help a user sort bullets by limiting the spin axis and CG defects. These were very small fractions of the total mass and inertia that were being detected by an inductive transducer while the machine spun the bullet.

I'll post a picture of one of them for nostalgia sake.

1738095159315.png

I lost track of Verne, but we have lost folks like Walt, Bill, etc., and they are missed.
Carry on, but before you worry about fingerprints on your bullets, worry more about how many times they have been dropped in shipping. Your fingerprints will not matter once the primer starts up, but if the internal mass properties are not good that bullet will not go where you point it. YMMV
 
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