416/458 Vestal

[Sigma]

Just announced today on fb by Robert Vestal.

L>R: 458 vestal, 416 vestal, 416 barrett, 416 hellfire, 416 snipetac


Per Rob’s caption:

“Attention ELR Shooters!!

Introducing the 416 VESTAL & 458 VESTAL

In conjunction with Gary Bruce, we designed what we think will be game changers for the ELR community!! Both have .640 (Cheytac) size rim, however the body is larger in diameter and longer. Brass is already formed and has proper head stamp. Ready to load out of the bag. The 416 Vestal is able to launch a 550gr bullet around 3100fps while the 458 Vestal can push a 650gr bullet around 3000fps!! Brass is in stock and chamber reamers/headspace gauges are currently in production. Load data consists of over 200grs of powder!! Also note, these new cartridges use magnum large rifle primers and NOT BMG primers and have been tested down to 40 degrees with absolutely no hangfires. I will be posting load data soon as we are currently testing more powders. Stay tuned!! “

per a comment by Rob: “most any action suitable for a cheytac. However just make sure the ejection port is long enough. The BAT CT port is too short to eject a fired case.”

 

[Dogtown]

"Hmm...It's almost like some kind of 416XC"

 

[Sigma]

"Hmm...It's almost like some kind of 416XC"

i had the same exact thoughts, looks like an 33XC on steroids. I may or may not be erect at the time I posted this

 

[GIXXER2000]

From what I understand Brass will be $$$$. I had a 375ct barrel done by Robert and it shot awesome so I have no doubt the 458 and 416 will be great.

 

[AlanX]

So what is the barrel life expected to be?

 

[GIXXER2000]

Given the amount of powder i guess 600ish to maybe 1000 give or take. I would also like to know before I order another 375 CT barrel.

 

[camotoe]

Who's brass?

 

[GIXXER2000]

What is the powder of choice for the 416 with the 550gr???

 

[Geno C.]

Who's brass?

Bertram

 

[GIXXER2000]

I guess next question is how many firings should you be able to get out of this brass?? I had 50 Bertram 375CT and the primer pockets were done after the 3rd firing. My 375CT Peterson brass is on its 8th with no issues.

 

[Dogtown]

Has Bertram still not figured it out? Every batch of .408CT and .375CT brass I got from them between 2006-2008 didn’t last more than a few firings. I figured it was the cartridge until I got a dozen firings from Jamison brass.

 

[Sigma]

So what is the barrel life expected to be?

great question

 

[Sigma]

What is the powder of choice for the 416 with the 550gr???

he stated on fb that load data will be developed soon

 

[Sigma]

I guess next question is how many firings should you be able to get out of this brass?? I had 50 Bertram 375CT and the primer pockets were done after the 3rd firing. My 375CT Peterson brass is on its 8th with no issues.

i run a 338-408 cheytac using bertram brass, mine lasted 8 rounds before i started having signs of case head separation. I was careful with pushing shoulder back minimally but I must have not. The primer pockets were still tight though.

 

[Sigma]

Has Bertram still not figured it out? Every batch of .408CT and .375CT brass I got from them between 2006-2008 didn’t last more than a few firings. I figured it was the cartridge until I got a dozen firings from Jamison brass.

my batch is from 2012ish if i had to guess, mine stayed very tight after 8 firings. i didn’t push them super hard though

 

[GIXXER2000]

That's good to know. When I talked to the Peterson boys at shot couple of years back in the big cases only bump the shoulder when brass becomes hard to chamber. I have 8 firing on my 375 CT brass and they look good.

 

[Sigma]

That's good to know. When I talked to the Peterson boys at shot couple of years back in the big cases only bump the shoulder when brass becomes hard to chamber. I have 8 firing on my 375 CT brass and they look good.

i read that as well, my chamber is 11 thou larger than virgin brass as well so i think may be part of the issue, still really can’t complain about 8 firings though.

next go around i’ll just have the smith use a piece of peterson brass as the go/no go gauge. im sitting on 250 pieces i haven’t tapped in to yet, figured i would use up all the old stuff first to get the feel of everything.

 

[badassgunworks]

Should be a good cartridge if the pockets hold up. Bertram is real hit and miss from batch to batch. On quality control and how strong it will end up. Plus really will need to be fireformed before brass is fixed bertram is always fat in the center. H20 consistancy can also be a problem with bertram. The 416/458 vestal looks to ne a good design i hope it works out to be a good cartridge for robert. The 458 will have long barrel life my guess will be 1500 plus rounds the 416 should be around 1000

 

[Dogtown]

It’s a shame RCC is no longer around.

 

[badassgunworks]

It’s a shame RCC is no longer around.

Not really in reguards to the vestal cartridge robert would never consider forking out that much money . If he did he would be in the same bost every one else is with rcc. He really could have made a much better performance cartridge not being stuck to having a parent cartridge but again at least you can get his brass from bertram. For me i dont really care about rcc. yes its sad but i was making lathe turned brass before rcc existed so i wont need them. But it was convenient.

 

[Dogtown]

I wasn’t making lathe turned brass but I did spend ten years fireforming wildcats and wearing out barrels. Getting a batch of virgin wildcat brass made to spec was pretty nice for once.

 

[Sigma]

Not really in reguards to the vestal cartridge robert would never consider forking out that much money . If he did he would be in the same bost every one else is with rcc. He really could have made a much better performance cartridge not being stuck to having a parent cartridge but again at least you can get his brass from bertram. For me i dont really care about rcc. yes its sad but i was making lathe turned brass before rcc existed so i wont need them. But it was convenient.

what other cases out there use a rebated cheytac rim?

 

[badassgunworks]

what other cases out there use a rebated cheytac rim?

On conventional drawn brass. Dave's VM and vm2, 375 mercenary, 585 African, 585 nyatti express . There were a couple of guys that did a rebated rimmless 600 nitro express . And the 375 centurion made by bertram that never went public . And the 338and 375 enabelr All being saami based cartridges that have parents . Including the 416 and 458 vestal ... lathe turned brass there is 7 more that i know of .

 

[Sigma]

On conventional drawn brass. Dave's VM and vm2, 375 mercenary, 585 African, 585 nyatti express . There were a couple of guys that did a rebated rimmless 600 nitro express . And the 375 centurion made by bertram that never went public . And the 338and 375 enabelr All being saami based cartridges that have parents . Including the 416 and 458 vestal ... lathe turned brass there is 7 more that i know of .

i never knew this, very cool

 

[Dogtown]

On conventional drawn brass. Dave's VM and vm2

Whatever happened to Dave Viers and Vieresco? I helped a buddy load for a .338 Snipetac he got from Dave back in 2010 and it was such an impressive rifle. I followed his wildcat developments for a while but it seemed like he came up with the VM and then VM2 and then poof…gone.

 

[Geno C.]

When he did the vm2 he fucked up. Too straight. After that, he’s been pretty quiet

 

[badassgunworks]

When he did the vm2 he fucked up. Too straight. After that, he’s been pretty quiet

The vm cartridge design were bought by 2 guys i think in Australia nothing has happend sence then dave had a house flood and family issues and fell apart. So it died it was fixable
part of the problem was the cartridge design flash hole was to big. And cartridge did not have enough taper the other issue was the action at the time was not big enough for the cartridge body size. Tennon was to small. Had the pierce 20x existed at the time there would have been less issues. Instruction were given to the new owners and plueprints on how to fix the issue but not sure where it went from there. Some where i have the revised print that the new owners were given . I think if i still have them some where.

 

[Taylorbok]

@badassgunworks curious how little taper he went to for it to cause issues?

 

[badassgunworks]

@badassgunworks curious how little taper he went to for it to cause issues?

30-06 and smaller cases require 009 taper per inch and the body of the case minus the extractor Groove neck and shoulder. When you start getting larger in diameter up around the Lapua size case you need 010 taper and larger than the lapua you need approximately 012-014 taper per inch it's not just the diameter it's also the length because both add to surface area and the longer a case is the worst it is

 

[ReturnFire]

Any updates about load data?

 

[Sigma]

Any updates about load data?

i haven’t seen anything on facebook yet, i don’t see it being too much longer, i know gary and at least 2 others are doing testing with it

 

[LastShot300]

It’s a shame RCC is no longer around.

Their website is up and running. https://www.rccbrass.com/

 

[ReturnFire]

The phone number listed is still disconnected

 

[Geno C.]

They go belly up and guys are wanting to throw money at them?

 

[ReturnFire]

After hearing all of the horror stories of everyone that prepaid for brass that they never received I know I wouldn't give them anything but there is a product void that no one is filling

 

[ReturnFire]

Who is building the reamers/gauges?

 

[badassgunworks]

Who is building the reamers/gauges?

Question is can you get the brass if you can get the brass you can have reamers made and you can change it to suit your needs and fire form. Reamers are easy brass is not. You got to get your hands on the brass first

 

[ReturnFire]

Is Robert the only person that has brass?

 

[badassgunworks]

Is Robert the only person that has brass?

I think so

 

[deadontheX]

If they really achieve the claimed velocity, that would be a game changer.
Opinions?

 

[Sigma]

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If they really achieve the claimed velocity, that would be a game changer.
Opinions?

they are using 42-44” barrels mind you, but the numbers are still certainly impressive

 

[Dogtown]

Feels like a 50XC

 

[deadontheX]

Feels like a 50XC

But much better performance. 1000grain at 3000fps.... we're talking 19981(ft/p) energy. I like the idea of bringing the 50 cal into the next century. Furthermore, I am only aware of one 50cal that is even more powerfull.

 

[Sigma]

But much better performance. 1000grain at 3000fps.... we're talking 19981(ft/p) energy. I like the idea of bringing the 50 cal into the next century. Furthermore, I am only aware of one 50cal that is even more powerfull.

50xc is more like the 416/458 vestal necked up, which they are trying

 

[deadontheX]

.50 vestal isn't cheytac bolt face.
Does anyone know when Vestal is expected to be done with the cartridge and bring it to market? Would love to have a look at the cartridge print.

 

[ReturnFire]

I wonder if the 510 will use a .700 BF like the Colossus cartridges. That way you could jump into a Pierce 20X and be ready to rock

 

[badassgunworks]

I wonder if the 510 will use a .710 BF like the Goliath cartridges. That way you could jump into a Pierce 20X and be ready to rock

The goliath rim is .850 the colossus and blitzkrieg is .700 . 710 bolt face known as xnihilo rim pierce 20x.
My Understanding according to what has been posted on face book pages the 50 vestal will have a .700 rim diamiter but who knows till its done . It would make it easy sence it already exists .

 

[deadontheX]

I'm even more curious to see how it will hold up against pressure.

 

[badassgunworks]

I'm even more curious to see how it will hold up against pressure.

Conventional manufactoring with conventional c260 will yeald arould 68,000 psi the standarm magnum primer design will yeald a little more but that all depends on chamber design and spects. It should work well if capacity is there and very long barrels are used. Eveything is a package deal every thing works togather. Fall short in one area end results falls short. I look foward to seeing there end results. I will never throw stones at innovation.

 

[deadontheX]

Conventional manufactoring with conventional c260 will yeald arould 68,000 psi the standarm magnum primer design will yeald a little more but that all depends on chamber design and spects. It should work well if capacity is there and very long barrels are used. Eveything is a package deal every thing works togather. Fall short in one area end results falls short. I look foward to seeing there end results. I will never throw stones at innovation.

There is only one way to get better performance, PRESSURE. 68000 psi sounds lame. Yeah,i know high pressure on large volume cartridges is tricky but i fail to understand why this industry doesn't catch up with the military. As an extreme example, look at the 120-130mm guns (I consider these to be high volume cartridges lol). Operating pressures are well over 110000 psi, even up to nearly 130000 psi. But calibers from .338 to .510, most are struggling with pressures well below 70000 psi. The industry should really look to the future and not keep developing the same weak crap again and again.