45-70 for hunting

[hydro556]

I am trying to come up with a nice, handy rifle for shorter range hunting, in he woods.

I have my Dads Marlin 45/70 1895SS in the safe and am thinking it is as good as anything. Very handy little rifle that packs a punch.

He gave me an ammo can full of real heavy flat nosed stuff when I got it. I am wanting to load something lighter to flatten the trajectory and lighten the recoil and report, if possible. Wanting to go with the Hornady L/E bullets, because I assume they are going to have the best BC. But I am assuming, not sure.

Thing is, it looks like the lightest projo available is still 325 grains. Does anyone make any ballistic tip type bullet in the 250 range, or is that not possible out of the big 45 bore?

Also, I am wanting to hear from guys loading this caliber, as I am having trouble finding any info that is not related to cowboy shooting. Needing info on brass, powder, projectile and primer choices. As well as a set of dies.

So, is anyone here loading 45-70 for hunting?

 

[BiggerStick47]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

hydro, there's alot of good info at http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php

 

[Duc]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

H,
This might give You some info.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/forums/35/4/Big_Bores_Only

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

Your Dad is right, it is an excellent round for "shorter range hunting."

IMO you dont need to flatten the trajectory of the 45-70 for shorter ranges by loading lighter bullets. If you are looking for lighter recoil and report, both will be negligeably improved by doing so.

I'm assuming deer up to 100 yards is realistic? In that case, your Dad is right again, real heavy, flat nosed "stuff."

 

[hydro556]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your Dad is right, it is an excellent round for "shorter range hunting."

IMO you dont need to flatten the trajectory of the 45-70 for shorter ranges by loading lighter bullets. If you are looking for lighter recoil and report, both will be negligeably improved by doing so.

I'm assuming deer up to 100 yards is realistic? In that case, your Dad is right again, real heavy, flat nosed "stuff." </div></div>

With the modern Hornady bullets, I see no reason to limit myself to 100 yards. With lighter, higher BC bullets, I am thinking more like 250 yards.

 

[hydro556]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

Biggerstick and Duc, thanks for the links, I will check them out.

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

Hornady has thier new 325 grain FTX- Flex Tip bullet. It is a pointed rubber tipped bullet for tube magazines. It would be my top choice for longer range, if the gun/shooter/scope can shoot that far. I load a 300 grain Rem HP bullet for both my brothers' 450 Marlin lever guns, and they work nice. They are a little explosive on game, but are good for general hunting (deer, pigs) and fairly inexpensive. I wouldn't recommend it for bigger game since the bullet does fragment.
With your heavy flat point bullet you already have, it will provide the deepest penetration. If you look at the trajectory charts, there is not a lot gained by going to lighter bullets.

 

[hydro556]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

Thanks Chad. The flex tip from Hornady is the bullet to which I was referring. But, maybe I need to check out some trajectory charts and I may not even need to worry about loading anything.

I have an ammo can with several boxes of rounds that Dad loaded. Looking at them, I have the following. Some of the acronyms are new to me.

405 gr RNFP, 46.0 grains Varget ~1600FPS (20 rds)
405 gr RNFP, 33.0 grains H4198 ~1500FPS (20 rds)
405 gr FP, 35.0 grains H4198 ~1550FPS (20 rds)
405 gr FP MKCB* (??) 33.0 grains H4198 1500FPS (55 rds)
300 gr FP, 52.0 grains Varget ~1800FPS (20 rds)
300 gr JHP, 60.0 grains Varget ~1880FPS (10 rds)

Couple points. When I first got this carbine from Dad, I shot some of the 405's and some of the 300's. It shot both well to 100 yards, but IIRC, it shot the 300's very well.

Also, What is MKCB? RNFP? Round Nose and Flat Point seem mutually exclusive, LOL.

I may just get an optic mounted and see how well it shoots the 405's from 100 to 300. If it shoots them well enough, I may not even mess with loading any this year. Considering I have almost 120 of various 405 grain loads, I may have enough to get zeroed and practiced up and get through this season. I will probably only hunt with this gun a few times. Also, if I need more Dad likely has some.

I will check some trajectory tables and unless there is a huge difference, I will "run what I brung" for now.

 

[raxafarian]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

I use the Hornady 300 gr JHP (hornady item 4500) for deer, bear, and someday maybe moose here on the east coast. Average shots are 50yds but I'd go out to 150.

Remington or Winchester brass, CCI lg rifle primers and 54 gr 3031 gives me just over 1800fps out of a 22" barrel. 1" to 1 1/2" groups at 100yds.

I just got some 460gr cast from Cast Performance but have not loaded them yet. These would be for bigger critters in Alaska.

The ftx bullet looks interesting but for my purposes I'm set on the 300gr.

They need a pretty good crimp and some of the longer bullets won't feed into the magazine.

I switch back and forth from two ancient leupolds: One fixed M8 (4x) and a vxII 3-9. I'm thinking of trying the XS ghost ring.

edit: The Hogden website lists decent load data for the three different levels of .45-70 although some of their trapdoor loads seem quite hot.

 

[jhedg]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

I have been shooting, and loading for hunting the 45-70 for about 20+yrs, any loading book, will have good loads to work with. In MY OPINION, just mine!!!! I have never looked to shoot the 45-70 flat. I have a Sieamese Mauser, that I shoot 400gr Barnes through, And it is amazing how accurate it is, I have reloaded the Ruger #1/W the 300gr Midway Bullets, shot great. I had a Guide Gun, that I shot 400gr FN, about .75@100yds. I would shoot what you have. Practice, be patient, I know after about 15-20rnds of stout 400grainers, through my Guide Gun my teeth would ache. It really does not matter IMO what you shoot out of your 45-70, If you hit it it is going down!!! I never have shot anything over 100yds/w any of mine, but I guess as long as you know you drop, it does not really matter. Belive it or not out of the 25+ deer I have shot/w the 45-70 only two have moved any more then 1 inch after being hit. I like 3031 for loading. I dont now if any of this helps, but you will be hooked on the 45-70 for life once you start down the road with it

 

[hydro556]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

Thanks Hedg.

I have decided that I am going to get a rail and mount an optic and shoot some of the stuff I already have prior to buying any components.

If I can get pretty close to 1 MOA I am just going to roll with that load. Then, maybe after deer season I will work on some lighter, flatter loads.

Also, I have never shot more than 10 rounds or so at a time with this thing, so I need to see if recoil is going to be a problem. It seems that I recall from the last time I shot it, the 400 grainers werent too bad, but the 300's had a bit of kick.

 

[polish handgunner]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

Many years ago I had very good luck using Hornady's 300 grain hollow point in my Ruger Mdl 3 45/70 for blacktail deer.

Sad to say the mdl 3 is no longer with me.

I used barrel mounted sights and the ranges was not long!

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

Hydro,

Recoil will be an issue after a few stiff rounds of 45-70. I'll be honest, when I shoot big, light guns like this, I'll take a sand bag and put it on the butt to shoot it. It helps disipate the recoil. It lengthens your eye relief, but on most guns like this it's not an issue.

 

[psinclair]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

A pic of my Marlin Guide Gun...I call it "bear spray"...grin!

It wears an XS rear peep with the hood on the front sight removed. My best load is a 425gr Lyman cast. It'll shoot about 2" at 100.

Chad, great advice on the sandbag...that rifle will leave a mark!!

 

[BKSSNIPER]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

I think as PAST pad or sissy bag is in order anytime you shoot one of these beasts from the bench much.

 

[tansinator]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

I had my first experience with a 45/70 last hunting season. It's an H&R single shot, we can use these during muzzleloader season in Mississippi. I killed a pig and a doe. Both were DRT.
I put a sissy pad on mine. It helped a little for sighting in purposes. No recoil felt while hunting. The Hornady LeverRevolution were deadly.

Eddie

 

[HOGGHEAD]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

The 45-70 is at its best with mild loads. Hot loads are just not the way to go. The little you gain in trajectory is cancelled out by the increased recoil.

Pick a good load with a 405 grain cast bullet. And push it out at about 1600 fps. My personal load for this is 40.0 grains of RL7. This load does not require gas checks, and leading is no problem at this velocity. Straight WW works just fine.

The beauty of the 45-70 is the cost of shooting. And the fact that there is no accuracy or performance advantage to shooting jacketed bullets over cast bullets.

I cast my own bullets for my 45-70's. I can shoot 500 rounds or more for less than $100. That is the real beauty of the 45-70. And the fact that it is a big bore that will annihilate anything with a 405 grain bulet at 1600 fps. And at distances well past 100 yards. I am proficient with mine in a hunting situation out to 300 yards. I practice farther distances, but am not confident past 300 yards. I also do not use scopes on my 45-70's, strictly open sights.

Reloading dies are pretty simple since the 45-70 is a straight wall case. However there are a couple of dies I would recommend for certain steps in reloading the 45-70. First is the Lyman M-Die. This die is used for belling the case mouth when starting a cast bullet into the mouth. The other die I prefer is the Redding Roll Crimp die. Both of these dies add an additional step to the reloading process, but I do not have a problem with that.

The most important thing to do for consistent 45-70 loads is separating your brass by mfr., and trimming all to the exact length.

The 45-70 in your Marlin requires a heavy crimp. This crimp will also help your accuracy.

Drop your load down to 1400-1600 fps and practice a bunch with that 45-70. If you do not cast your own bullets then just buy a large box of cheap cast bullets. After all if you are limiting yourself to 100 or 150 yards then is there a real difference between a 1" and a 2or3" group?? Just be careful, the 45-70 is highly addictive. Tom.

 

[canuck4570]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

read this before you reload hornady evolution bullets in your marlin 1885
http://www.hornady.com/media/ftx_load_data/45-70_1895-marlin_ftx.pdf

 

[canuck4570]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

barnes make a light bullet 250 and 300gr specialy for the 4570 and it feeds in the marlin
you dont have to modify your case like the L/E bullets from hornady

 

[Tigerbikes]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: canuck4570</div><div class="ubbcode-body">read this before you reload hornady evolution bullets in your marlin 1885
http://www.hornady.com/media/ftx_load_data/45-70_1895-marlin_ftx.pdf </div></div>

Good info canuck4570, thanks.

My 7 year old son loves the 45/70... the spent brass fit over his fingers...

 

[canuck4570]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

will you call him Edward scissors brass
instead of Edward scissors hand

 

[Red Ryder]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

I have an old Hornady Reloading Manual 4th edition in front of me. For the 1895 45-70 Marlin, it says "Case Trim Length: <span style="font-weight: bold">2.095</span>" The pdf which Canuck4570 linked to displays a case trim length of <span style="font-weight: bold">2.040</span> - see the upper left hand corner of the pdf. But the <span style="font-style: italic">paragraph</span> in the pdf says that "Sometimes this requires that the cartridge case to be trimmed shorter than the suggested .010" under SAAMI Max length that we recommend for conventional bullets."

So, if I'm reloading the 325 LEs, to what length do I trim the cases?

 

[canuck4570]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

you need to trim to 2.040 only for the Leverevolution bullet because the crimp groove on the spitzer shape bullet will make the bullet to long and the marlin 1895 wont eject a loaded round so to unload your rifle will be impossible
spoke to hornady and they told me the loaded amo sold have all their brass trim to 2.040 and the brass sold for reloading are 2.100
I repeat only when using hornady leverevolution bullets that you have to trim to 2.040

 

[former naval person]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

To where you can keep the overall length of the cartridge to the length that will feed and eject in your Marlin 1895. When they built the rifle they didn't lengthen the action over the .30-30 length for which the standard Marlin was designed. 2.550 is about the max in my rifle. You may get a little more but check it out before you load a couple of hundred. JMHO

 

[Red Ryder]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

thanks for clarifying. i was getting a nosebleed from thinking too hard about it.

 

[former naval person]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

Oh...forgot to mention that I prefer 4198 for my rifle...both cast and jacketed. FNP

 

[canuck4570]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

here is my 4570
Ruger no 1 modified to mount a scout scope
scope is Burris 2-7x32 with ballistic plex
shoot great
[img:center]

[/img]

 

[hydro556]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

Guys thanks for all the various advice. Learning a lot about this new-to-me caliber and rifle. It seems that loading the Hornady LE 325's may be a bit of work. That, in addition to other things, makes me want to give a good evaluation of the loads I got from my Dad when I got the rifle. I copy/pasted from above, but here it is again.

405 gr RNFP, 46.0 grains Varget ~1600FPS (20 rds)
405 gr RNFP, 33.0 grains H4198 ~1500FPS (20 rds)
405 gr FP, 35.0 grains H4198 ~1550FPS (20 rds)
405 gr FP MKCB* (??) 33.0 grains H4198 1500FPS (55 rds)
300 gr FP, 52.0 grains Varget ~1800FPS (20 rds)
300 gr JHP, 60.0 grains Varget ~1880FPS (10 rds)

What are your guys general opinions of the above loads, and their trajectory compared to what I could get if I go with a lighter and higher BC projectile?

Also, I have never loaded and shot any, but I dont like the idea of shooting these cast, non jacketed bullets. Seems like it would make a mess as far as fouling.

Again, thanks for all the advise, really helpful.

 

[JCarney]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

12gr. of Trail Boss with cast 405s. My 10yr old get 2" groups at 100yrd. Will still take small game.

 

[NTHRUT]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

When I bought my 45-70 Marlin Guide gun, several years ago, I got a load from Layne Simpson who I met @ Kenny Jarrett's shop. That was years ago when a Jarrett rifle was $1600. Anyway, I use it on whitetail deer in Va.- 39 gr h4198, 300 gr Sierra HP, federal 210m primers. I have a Bushnell holosight mounted and it shoots into 1 1/2" @ 100 yd.

 

[canuck4570]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys thanks for all the various advice. Learning a lot about this new-to-me caliber and rifle. It seems that loading the Hornady LE 325's may be a bit of work. That, in addition to other things, makes me want to give a good evaluation of the loads I got from my Dad when I got the rifle. I copy/pasted from above, but here it is again.

405 gr RNFP, 46.0 grains Varget ~1600FPS (20 rds)
405 gr RNFP, 33.0 grains H4198 ~1500FPS (20 rds)
405 gr FP, 35.0 grains H4198 ~1550FPS (20 rds)
405 gr FP MKCB* (??) 33.0 grains H4198 1500FPS (55 rds)
300 gr FP, 52.0 grains Varget ~1800FPS (20 rds)
300 gr JHP, 60.0 grains Varget ~1880FPS (10 rds)

What are your guys general opinions of the above loads, and their trajectory compared to what I could get if I go with a lighter and higher BC projectile?

Also, I have never loaded and shot any, but I dont like the idea of shooting these cast, non jacketed bullets. Seems like it would make a mess as far as fouling.

Again, thanks for all the advise, really helpful. </div></div>
they are all good for deer hunting
and they wont foul your barrel

 

[Tigerbikes]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

If anyone needs a sweet Guide Gun...

 

[pc3]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

I have owned a couple of different Marlin 45/70's and currently use the XLR model with aimpoint I use it as my Pig Hunting rifle and it works great. 300 gr Hollow Points @ 2150-2200 fps make short work of any pig from any angle. My mate also uses a 45/70 Marlin for pigs we would not be without them. Once again he uses the aimpoint as well.

 

[canuck4570]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

bought this one lately still waiting for it
Steyr big bore in 450 marlin
will be mounting a nightforce
2.5-10x32 with NPR-2 reticle and MOA
using a NEAR 10 MOA picatinny rail
and some NEAR rings
[img:center]http://www.steyr-mannlicher.com/index.ph...b3321d0950d5341[/img]

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

My buddy and I took a moose in Alaska with a 45-70 and my 30-06.

FIrst two shots with a 350gr lead bullet, 2 inches apart, Freddie did good- heart shots.

Moose got back up of course and I finished with an 06 to teh back of the head.

The meat damage area was approximately 10" across ON BOTH SIDES - LOT Of meat ruined...(Two shots tho).

It's a great round for larger animals but if your deer are less than 250 lbs I'd reconsider that rifle and go with a 44 mag leveraction or a 30-30..

It'll certainly do the job tho ugh, one shot kill..lot of energy in that bullet, 45-70 is an awesome round!

EDITED: - Step dad showed me hte load difference between cast and lead bullets - anything like that you go with lead bullets - too much powder difference IMHO when you try for a jacketed bullet.

You can make your own bullets for those too.....ye ha..

 

[anytym]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

I have been shooting the Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70 for about 8 years. I also have a t/c Encore Pistol in .45-70. I shoot Aimpoints on them. I just got a new SBL and took the aimpoint off the pistol and put it on the SBL. I have shot a coyote, 3 deer, an elk with my guide gun and it will bloody the meat unless you use a hardcast bullet and shoot it around 1300 to 1400 ft/sec. I got the rifle because you were supposed to be able to eat right up to the hole. Not so using a mushrooming bullet at high speed. A very experienced hunter that has killed over 20 elk told me the wheel weights or harder metal, fired at 1300' to 1400' keeps you from ruining meat with a lot of bloodshot. The elk I killed with a 350 gr. Hornady FN and only got 8 lbs of meat off the off shoulder. The Bullet was traveling about 1740fps.

 

[danny.k]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

I load my 1895g with Ranch-dog`s 350grainers(homecast) and 52grs of Norma200 in Starline cases infront of a cci 250 primer.
Muzzle velocity is 2050fps, thats enuff for both me and on the recieving end the "hawgs",fallowdeer and moose at 0-150yards

.

Ive tried a bunch of jacketed bullets to but imho the 45-70 is at its best when using hardcast boolits whith BIG meplates(flatpoints).

/danny

 

[TRON]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

Great pig medicine I have been hunting with the Hornady lever-loution I think is the name also do a search for Garret ammo. My gun is marlin done by WW guns out of alaska. I hope to shoot a buffalo with my 1886 winchester next year.

T.

 

[bohem]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

RNFP = Round Nose Flat Point as you guessed. The bullet has a RN profile but the bullet is flattened at the actual tip so that there's no tangential contact on the primer in front of it. Think of using a ball peen hammer on a flat surface, it still leaves a good dent.

The 45-70 doesn't really need a "high BC" bullet to reach out past 300y. There's whole herds of buffalo that don't exist anymore due to the knockdown ability of the 45-70. It's not particularly flat shooting, but we all know how to get around that problem.

Those guide guns kill on both ends, my dad has a Marlin 1895 and it's still murderous on your shoulder, neck, back, etc. The full bore Hornady LeveRolution ammo actually rattled my teeth shooting it.

The ammo your dad gave you will kill anything on this continent and bring a serious hurt to just about anything on 4 legs. I'd just suggest that you shoot it and enjoy it.

When you reload it, make sure you get it properly crimped for tube feeding.

 

[TV66]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

Varget shoots great in my #1,#3,KP1,Encore, Rem/Springfield rolling block,1895s,and Browning 1886s, but does leave a lot of unburnt powder in the barrel. 4198 seems to burn better and cleaner.

As you can tell I hate the 45/70

 

[Falar]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

http://www.realguns.com/loads/4570.htm

Here is some non-cowboy action load data.

 

[TV66]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: canuck4570</div><div class="ubbcode-body">here is my 4570
Ruger no 1 modified to mount a scout scope
scope is Burris 2-7x32 with ballistic plex
shoot great
[img:center]

[/img]
</div></div>

Close up of the mount please! And an idea of how you modified it. Thanks

 

[TexasHaag]

Re: 45-70 for hunting

The 45-70 is at its best with mild loads. Hot loads are just not the way to go. The little you gain in trajectory is cancelled out by the increased recoil.

Pick a good load with a 405 grain cast bullet. And push it out at about 1600 fps. My personal load for this is 40.0 grains of RL7. This load does not require gas checks, and leading is no problem at this velocity. Straight WW works just fine.

The beauty of the 45-70 is the cost of shooting. And the fact that there is no accuracy or performance advantage to shooting jacketed bullets over cast bullets.

I cast my own bullets for my 45-70's. I can shoot 500 rounds or more for less than $100. That is the real beauty of the 45-70. And the fact that it is a big bore that will annihilate anything with a 405 grain bulet at 1600 fps. And at distances well past 100 yards. I am proficient with mine in a hunting situation out to 300 yards. I practice farther distances, but am not confident past 300 yards. I also do not use scopes on my 45-70's, strictly open sights.

Reloading dies are pretty simple since the 45-70 is a straight wall case. However there are a couple of dies I would recommend for certain steps in reloading the 45-70. First is the Lyman M-Die. This die is used for belling the case mouth when starting a cast bullet into the mouth. The other die I prefer is the Redding Roll Crimp die. Both of these dies add an additional step to the reloading process, but I do not have a problem with that.

The most important thing to do for consistent 45-70 loads is separating your brass by mfr., and trimming all to the exact length.

The 45-70 in your Marlin requires a heavy crimp. This crimp will also help your accuracy.

Drop your load down to 1400-1600 fps and practice a bunch with that 45-70. If you do not cast your own bullets then just buy a large box of cheap cast bullets. After all if you are limiting yourself to 100 or 150 yards then is there a real difference between a 1" and a 2or3" group?? Just be careful, the 45-70 is highly addictive. Tom.

Great advice... My 45-70 is with me during all daylight scouting. I'm loading a Cast Performance 420gr at about 1650, it makes easy work of the hogs, no second shot required.... lol
Pedersoli Shadow 19" 1:18 day stock peep.
SOCOM M1A 16.25" 1:11 night thermal, suppressed.
texashaag

 

[roostercogburn98]

In the last 13 years, I hope he got it figured out

 

[TexasHaag]

 

[Dough300]

If I could, I would ... own one that is. I have always thought of it as the poor mans 458 Win Mag although I don't know why. Certainly an exceptionally versatile cartridge and like Mr hbonser I also like putting big holes in things, but our authorities frown on such goings on. The calibre was going to be one of my choices for a double rifle until I saw the 8x57JRS.