458 socom???

jacq220

jacq220

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 5, 2007
647
1
39
Indianapolis, Indiana
www.indygunworks.com
#1
#2
Re: 458 socom???

i would just run whatever rock river runs on there barrels or what ever a 45/70 twist is as for velocity i get 1850 with a 300gr remington hp with a 16in barrel out of my ar they group pretty good to shot a couple 5 shot groups at 100 yds under 2in but if you have an ar lower imho i would just get an upper
 
#3
Re: 458 socom???

Just to throw some options into the mix, and jack your thread a little bit.

If you're building a bolt action I have a different suggestion on caliber for you, assuming you're willing to reload.

--44 Caliber
--Shoots 460 grain bullets as slow as 1000 fps and 180 grain bullets as fast as 3000 fps.
--Brass is made from 30-06 cases.

Fully capable of being suppressed, the COL is the same as the 223 so the goal was to put it in an AR15/M16 lower. A proof was tested and functions no problem, but we never got around to modifying the mags from 223 to shoot this new wildcat. In a bolt action you can use a short action with a 473 bolt face and have no issues.

It was developed to combat the specific shortfall of the 458 SOCOM, the drastically rebated rim. This acts as a force multiplier and has a tendency to snap off bolt heads in gas guns and be very hard on the cases making reloading more than a few times a complete pain in the neck.

I can give you some more details if you're interested.
 
#4
Re: 458 socom???

yep... give me more details... we talking 44 mag? i already have my .473 bolt face... and am not against exploring other calibers... i just saw that the socom could push a 300 grain barnes x solid at around 2000 fps which is my goal.... to be a better round than a 1oz 12g slug... not neccesarily heavier but more effective... i just dont like hunting with a shotgun and i want to be unique.... must stick with .473 bolt face as thats what i already have... and must be able to feed from a centerfeed (4.4 inch spacing) savave action.... give me as much info as you can throw at me... pm me if you would rather do it over the phone so you dont have to type so much.
 
#5
Re: 458 socom???

I think he means 44 Cal, aka .429/.430 bore, not 44 Mag case. Sounds like a lengthened 44 Automag to me, starting with -06 brass instead of 308 Win.

Bill
 
#7
Re: 458 socom???

It's a wildcat based from a cut down 30-06 case. It uses 44 mag bullets for some of the "light" bullet applications in the 180-220 grain region. With certain pistol powders you can get them safely to about 3000 fps depending on barrel length, temp, etc. We made a few light bullets from a lightweight alloy just to see how fast we could get them from a 24" barrel, I haven't looked at that data for about 7 years now, but I remember something in the 3500 fps range with a custom turned 125gr spitzer.

It's great on 30-06 brass because you can use stuff that has split necks and such as long as the base is in good shape, you can use range pickup brass and not worry about it.

With a 300 grain bullet you can hit 2k fps easily, I'll ask my dad for some more info on loading data if you're interested, he has chrony data and loads that would come with the job. Granted you'd have to do a load workup and stuff, but you can basically get 45-70 type velocity vs. bullet weight from it.

It will fit in the SA bolt actions on a 473 base because it's the same OAL as a 223, which is ~ 2.3" IIRC, if you want to long seat the jacketed bullets they can hold more powder then.

The heavies (460gr at 1000 fps) is a cast lead gas checked bullet driven with Unique. My dad applied for a suppressor build permit and uses a 458 caliber can on the end of the bolt action for shooting in the back yard while my mom is home. You hear "click..fffffffffffpppp... WHACK" at 100 yards when the bullet flies.

He took out a deer this year with it, the doe's skull looked like someone drilled a 1/2" hole about 1/8" off center between her eyes, crumpled up and was sitting in a pool of blood before he recovered from the recoil.
 
#8
Re: 458 socom???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dont know anything about that round... and i dont know if it would be indiana legal which is the purpose of this build </div></div>

Max case length is the only concern (1.625"), but if the loaded round fits in 223 mag, it probably meets that criteria, too.

Bill
 
#12
Re: 458 socom???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this going in a pistol? I guess I missed that part, I thought it was going in a bolt action rifle.

Won't work for that application then, sorry to get your hopes up. </div></div>

It is going into a rifle, but must meet Indiana's restriction that rifles must use "pistol" cartridges for Whitetail.

44 Automag is same case shortened to 1.300":
http://www.automagparts.com/dimensions.htm

What this describes is basically a rimless 445 supermag - a wildcat in-between the Automag and bohem's description (w/1.6" case length). Dave Kiff could set you up with a reamer.

Interesting....

Bill
 
#13
Re: 458 socom???

might be something to consider but i dont know about die availability for it... i can get the 458 bfg stainless varmint contour barrel (shilen i believe) for just under 300 bucks and a set of dies for 75.... maybe its just me but i am nervous to start venturing out to calibers that i dont know as much about.
 
#14
Re: 458 socom???

458 SOCOM looks like it best fits your requirements, there really isn't much to choose from in that cartridge range (hence the wildcatting...).

Cheers,

Bill
 
#16
Re: 458 socom???

1 in 18 twist seems to get the nod. Length and contour are personal preference, I'd go 20" if it were my project.

Have fun!

Bill

P.S. You really don't mean "solids" - at least not for hunting?....
 
#17
Re: 458 socom???

yes solids... barns x copper solids for deep penetration.... and the really heavy ones that are lathe turned just for fun... saw some for sale there were 700 grains... dont think ill mess with them though... why 1/18 over 1/14 if you dont mind me asking? i dont think i have ever seen a socom barrel in anything but 1/14.
 
#18
Re: 458 socom???

1/14 ought to be quite stable unless you do actually go with the 700 grain solids, those sound like something for 458 Win Mag or 460 Webby.


That sounds really bass ackwards you can't hunt whitetail with a rifle caliber, what's driving that idea?

I almost took a job in IN 2 years ago and turned it down for a couple reasons, I'm a little happier now hearing this. If I want to take a 50 BMG to a whitetail in PA I can do it.

 
#19
Re: 458 socom???

When I think of "solids" in .458, I think non-expanding projectiles for use on Elephants and Cape Buff....

Why 1 in 18" twist? Because you specified 250/300 gn, the 44 Mag handguns stablize the longer 300 w/1 in 18", and that's what they selected in this article. Had you mentioned heavier bullets, 1 in 14" (or 1 in 12") may be more appropriate. 300s are relatively "short" for .458s.

Cheers,

Bill
 
#21
Re: 458 socom???

Most states require use of "expanding" type ammunition. I'd group the Barnes-X as an expanding hollow point....

Cheers,

Bill
 
#22
Re: 458 socom???

here are the rounds i am looking at using....

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=635838

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=819504

scratch the solids comment as i was refering to the second round listed that should probably listed in a differant category other than solids....

also hoping for 2 moa accuracy out to 250... 300 would be great but i dont think it will stabilize that far.

you guys suggesting a 1/18 would be better for these rounds?
wanting around 2k FPS MV
 
#23
Re: 458 socom???

and here is the Indiana DNR info....dont know why we cant use rifle rounds but it is what it is.
Rifles with pistol cartridges
Rifles must fire a cartridge with a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and have a maximum case length of 1.625 inches.
&#56256;&#56510; These rifle cartridges can be used only during the deer firearms season.
Some cartridges that are legal include the following:
.357 Magnum
.38-40 Winchester
.41 Magnum
.41 Special
.44 Magnum
.44 Special
.44-40 Winchester
.45 Colt
.454 Casull
.458 SOCOM
.480 Ruger
.475 Linebaugh
.50 Action Express
.500 S&W
Some illegal rifle cartridges for deer hunting are the .30-30 Winchester, .444 Marlin and .45-70 Govt.
 
#24
Re: 458 socom???

Twist all depends on the heaviest bullet you want to shoot.

The 45-70 and 450 Marlins use 1 in 20" twist for projectiles up to 405 gns.

458 Lott uses 1 in 10" twist for 500+ gn bullets.

45 Cal black powder uses 1 in 36" for patched round balls....

1 in 18 is a compromise - should work better for the lighter bullets, but won't work for heavies. Go faster twist if you think you want to experiment with heavier bullets - you'd probably need 1 in 10" (or even faster) for a turned 700!...

Regards,

Bill
 
#25
Re: 458 socom???

well... i want optimum accuracy to be with a 300ish grain projectile... ideally 250-350 maybe a hair more, but i am going to be going to some pretty high velocities to get this thing to 300 with any degree of accuracy... i guess its a 20 inch 1/18 twist.... how does that sound to you guys?
 
#26
Re: 458 socom???

OK, using some actual math via JBM (drop, drag) and a spin calculator from some Brits that shoot a lot, here's the deal.

JBM Link
Spin Stability Link
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Ballistics</span>
300 grain Barnes Spitzer Soft Point in 458 cal
MV = 2000 fps
V@300y = 1260fps (ToF= .567s, drop 39.3" from 100y zero)

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Stability on <span style="font-weight: bold">1:14</span></span>
V = 1200 fps (300y range)
Bullet length = 3x's bore = 1.5" (way more than the actual)
Wt = 300 gr
Twist <span style="font-weight: bold">1:14</span>

Stability = 3.96 (1.0 is stability margin, 1.3 is fully stable)


<span style="text-decoration: underline">Stability on <span style="font-weight: bold">1:18</span></span>
V = 1200 fps
Bullet length = 3x's bore = 1.5" (way more than the actual)
Wt = 300 gr
Twist <span style="font-weight: bold">1:18</span>

Stability = 2.39 (1.0 is stability margin, 1.3 is fully stable)


You'll be stable to 500+ (990 fps) yards with a 1:14 and a 1:18 twist with 300 grainers, so I tried it with 600 grain Barnes Triple shock and a 2" bullet length out to 500 yards

Stability @ 600y for 1:18 = 1.24 (marginal stability)
Stability @ 600y for 1:14 = 2.05 (fully stable)

The stated minimum twist before the bullet stability drops below 1.0 for a 600 grainer that's 2" long at 600 yards is a 1:20 twist.

So, basically, pick whatever barre you'd like, you're more than stable with stubby 300 grainers at 2000 fps well past 500 yards.
 
#28
Re: 458 socom???

Cool beans, I look forward to seeing it.

I want to see the results when you pop the first deer this season too
whistle.gif
 
#31
Re: 458 socom???

yes a hammer it will be.... i am not a fan of shotguns.... and i want muzzle loading performance... but i dindt want to do what everyone else does in the state... i think this will be a very unique firearm... esp since i am doing it myself. once i started looking into what could be done and saw that the 458 socom is capable of outperforming both the shotguns (distance) and the muzzleloaders (energy) i decided to give it a go... all i hope is that i dont build this thing and then not be able to get the desired accuracy out of it... i would like to think that this wont be too difficult (6 inches at 300 yards) but when it comes down to it, i just dont know how this thing will perform.. hopefully i dont build myself a lemon
 
#32
Re: 458 socom???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WRM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It'll be a hammer!...

Neat information, bohem - thanks!

Bill </div></div>


Yeah, I can't wait to see this thing and what it can do. Glad I could help.
 
#33
Re: 458 socom???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yes a hammer it will be.... i am not a fan of shotguns.... and i want muzzle loading performance... but i dindt want to do what everyone else does in the state... i think this will be a very unique firearm... esp since i am doing it myself. once i started looking into what could be done and saw that the 458 socom is capable of outperforming both the shotguns (distance) and the muzzleloaders (energy) i decided to give it a go... all i hope is that i dont build this thing and then not be able to get the desired accuracy out of it... i would like to think that this wont be too difficult (6 inches at 300 yards) but when it comes down to it, i just dont know how this thing will perform.. hopefully i dont build myself a lemon </div></div>

I don't think you'll have a problem with the accuracy of it. Holding 2 MOA with proper loads and a good barrel you shouldn't have any issue, that is assuming though that the action hasn't been abused.

If you wanted a 1/4 MOA rifle you might have some issues, but the standard action comes as a MOA rifle usually, you should be able to replicate that without too much trouble. It crosses supersonic around 400 yards though...

 
#34
Re: 458 socom???

You could go longer on the barrel, but I don't think you're giving much velocity up past 20" (~25 fps/in). Med-heavy contour match barrel for stiffness, accuracy, weight, and balance?...

There's no reason it should not meet your goals, provided the bullets are up to the task.

Please keep us posted,

Bill
 
#36
Re: 458 socom???

You know, for the money, I've had VERY good results from Adams and Bennett barrels.

They're air gauged and lapped to the same tolerances as the baseline Shilen, so if you don't buy a select match barrel from Shilen you're not getting anything but the name from my experience.

I have an A&B on my 30-06 that I built to a k98 action and it shoots far better than I do. For a non-match gun that's going to get hunting loads from the SOCOM caliber, you might just save the 100 bucks and get an Adams and Bennet, put the extra money into components or glass, since you have some serious drop to keep in mind out at 300 yards with this thing.

Now, I'm not knocking Shilen, I hold them in very high regard and my 6.5-06 build that's in progress is getting a Shilen Select Match 1:8 in chrome moly. That rifle is going to be my first foray into long range light rifle shooting, and I'm building everything from scratch. So putting an extra 175 bucks into it is really insignificant overall.
 
#37
Re: 458 socom???

i am actually getting the barrel from a hoosier vendor and he said it would either be mgowen or shilen, whoever is shipping faster... he is charging me 290 for the barrel and 75 for some hornady dies which i am ok with giving him that business... to further his reputation he is on the other side of the state but in my area due to business tomorrow and is stopping by my place to help me remove the barrel (bringing his own tools) because the barrel has already sold to a Hide member.... he is good people... i dont think the manufacterer really matters on this one as i am only hoping for 2 moa accuracy.. .thanks for the input though i will look into them.
 
#38
Re: 458 socom???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i am actually getting the barrel from a hoosier vendor and he said it would either be mgowen or shilen, whoever is shipping faster... he is charging me 290 for the barrel and 75 for some hornady dies which i am ok with giving him that business... to further his reputation he is on the other side of the state but in my area due to business tomorrow and is stopping by my place to help me remove the barrel (bringing his own tools) because the barrel has already sold to a Hide member.... he is good people... i dont think the manufacterer really matters on this one as i am only hoping for 2 moa accuracy.. .thanks for the input though i will look into them. </div></div>

Gotcha, sounds like a good plan, especially since he's going to come pull the thing off for you. That's a shop owner/dealer I wish I had around me. The local shop by me is gouging the crap out of people and smiling while they do it.
 
#39
Re: 458 socom???

I know what you mean by our dumb Indiana game laws. I ordered my .458 upper bout 2 months ago! Thinking i'll have it by the '10 deer season??? I hope. Good luck on the build!
 
#40
Re: 458 socom???

+500gr is pushing it for the socom. You have a small case and the capacity gets dimished with those longer solids. For what its worth mine groups just under MOA with 405gr JSP's and iron sights. Barnes is selling a 330gr solid now, hornady has a 325gr flextip, and Barnes is also going to release a 300gr TTSX esque bullet for it as well.

1/14" twist is the way to go, you will beable to stabilize the short bullets in the 250-300gr range as well as the longer stuff 400-600gr.

edit: I just clocked the 330gr solids...i was getting 1800fps with 38gr Re-7.
 
#41
Re: 458 socom???

JACQ, Keep us posted on your build. I am also from Indiana and was considering a 458 socom. Maybe I will wait and see how your build turns out.
I was also wondering if a 450 bushmaster would be legal. I think the case length is about 1.650, but could it be cut down to 1.625 to meet the Indiana requirements?
 
#42
Re: 458 socom???

Just a little update on this build... i have the barrel and am waiting on the stock bolt lift kit and recoil lug to put it all together.... haven decided on optics yet but will probably start out with something cheap and then maybe a trijicon accupoint or something of the likes....
the rest of the kit should be here by the end of next month.... man it sucks waiting on parts.
 
#46
Re: 458 socom???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that is VERY VERY close to the scopes i have been looking at.... i am thinking i may want to go with something illuminated though.... what says the hide?

what optic

1-4
3-9
4-14

objective
20mm
24mm
30mm
40mm
50mm

to illuminate or not to illuminate? </div></div>

ummm...it is illuminated

I have been very happy with this...(although the darn thing is huge and heavy) http://www.millettsights.com/controller.php/cat09/trs
 
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