5.56 Semi Auto Suppressors - Titanium?

[alamo5000]

Unfortunately Griffin has not yet released data using MIL-STD-1474E (AHAAH) criteria, or at least I haven't seen anything other than peak numbers.

Have you watched the specific video I put the link to?

To me ALL metering is a guideline at best. Everything else is getting in the weeds.

Unless there is obvious "cheating" going on (ie using under power ammo or something) then all of it is a guideline only for consumers.

 

[E. Bryant]

I appreciate the response here.

I'm under no illusion I need a full auto suppressor as few actually do, and in fact would prefer something lighter weight in steel or titanium that can handle a few faster mags of semi auto and call it good.

The 800f threshold of titanium is the "big scary" on a semi-auto, and how many shots it might take to get there. Seems like there are some who've figured it out like tbac with the dominus. What I'm trying to figure out is would I be walking a fine line of blowing up a ti can with a heavier semi-auto firing schedule, or is it totally OK.

TBAC is pretty clear with regards to their acceptable firing schedule, and has useful commentary on how this may apply to civilian use:

Thunder Beast Arms Corporation [TBAC] | Products | DOMINUS-SR

The embedded video shows the Dominus glowing at certain points, which indicates a skin temperature well above 1000°F. Presumably the internal temperature is even higher.

Other suppressor manufacturers have different ways of communicating the rating of their devices. If they want to use a max temperature rating, that's their prerogative; hopefully they also specify a practical method by which to perform that measurement.

 

[HaydenLane]

Yep, and sorry for derailing the thread. Hard to leave that info unchallenged because while it is your thread, others read it as well and we don't want others destroying their hearing thinking they can run a sbr without ear pro.

My main point before the derailing is I really wouldn't consider the polonium at all for what your use will be, hearing pro or not. For a bolt gun, yeah it's a good, affordable option with good suppression for the package.

If in budget, I wouldn't think twice about going with the Dominus. Great performance, backpressure, construction, and CS. Only downside, as mentioned is the price, but worth the cost.

Do you use a Dominus or K on gas guns? I’m waiting on a K, but if it ends up on a gas gun it’ll just be filling in until I get something like the SCI-Six, 556k, RC3 (confirmed yet?), etc.

I certainly like my ultra 7, but I don’t see how using basically the same baffle design in a slightly different configuration is going to make for a low-backpressure can. It would be nice to see it reviewed, but there seems to be little interest from the gas gun world at large.

 

[FuhQ]

 

[91Eunozs]

I only own one dedicated 5.56 can, and it happens to be titanium. A Crux (yes, that company that went out of business) Axe 6 that pretty much has my daughter’s SBR’d AR as its full-time host

Bought it because the tech was pretty cool when it came out almost 10 years ago; only AAC under Brittingham or whatever his name is was doing the laser welding at that level at the time. Also, it‘s very light for what it does, and is actually a pretty good can from a hearing safety perspective.

It doesn’t get shot nearly as much as most of our other cans though, especially when we started hearing about the splitting issue with Crux suppressors; likely due to brittleness, too much heat soak, and engraving done too deeply. We’re also pretty careful about running it hard…maybe a mag or two of relatively slow fire, and no more than one mag dump at a time with that one.

So yeah, titanium’s awesome…until it’s not. What’s funny is that I run several ARs with titanium gas blocks, as well as a couple (three actually) with titanium bolt carriers, and love ‘em. No issues whatsoever. Obviously a metallurgy issue, and someone with more info or knowledge in this area please speak up, but I wonder why we never hear anything about heat cycling concerns in other titanium parts.

Genuinely curious…

 

[Cypress87]

Have you shot with one?

From my experiences, it has about the same backpressure/gas in the face as my Sandman-S cans…Which is very minimal for a baffled can. And yes, IMO, it is hearing safe.

Naw I haven’t...mk mk, may have to pick one up, I have a host in mind that it might work well for.

For OP
I would say generally speaking, yes, modern ti cans should hold up to moderately aggressive semi auto use.
As for what suppresses better, if you look at pew science, you can sort the suppressors in 3 categories. Flow thru at the top, quiet at ear, loud at muzzle. Big bore in the middle, mediocre at the ear and muzzle. Small bore at the bottom, loud at ear, quiet at muzzle. Backpressure low at top of the list and gets higher as you go down the list. Pick your poison.

 

[E. Bryant]

So yeah, titanium’s awesome…until it’s not. What’s funny is that I run several ARs with titanium gas blocks, as well as a couple (three actually) with titanium bolt carriers, and love ‘em. No issues whatsoever. Obviously a metallurgy issue, and someone with more info or knowledge in this area please speak up, but I wonder why we never hear anything about heat cycling concerns in other titanium parts.

Genuinely curious…

Because it's not an intrinsic problem with titanium, but rather an application engineering issue. (Or perhaps more accurately, a lack of application engineering.)

The "uncorking pressure" of a 10.5" 5.56 is around 10,000 PSI, and it's roughly double for a 5.5" barrel. These gases are obviously hot as well. Then you've got the potential for secondary combustion if there's any oxygen present, and at these temperatures and pressures, even nitrogen and CO2 stop acting inert and will join the party. It's a severe set of conditions, to say the least.

Titanium has a set of material properties that are suited to these conditions, but it has limits (like any other material) that should not be exceeded, and it's famously intolerant of improper processing. So if you have a tube with marginal wall thickness and then go too deep with the engraving, boom. If you contaminated the base material by laser or chemically engraving the tube, boom. (Titanium embrittlement can be caused by hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, and several other elements that surround us on this planet, and the result is exactly what the term implies - brittle parts, and also with a decrease in other mechanical properties.) If you get the part hot enough to degrade the mechanical properties beyond that which was anticipated by the design, boom. IMO, one better be leveraging both theory and practice (AKA testing) when designing a silencer, and this means understanding and anticipating any variation of the production process as well.

Parts like gas blocks and bolt carriers aren't operating in the same environment as a suppressor, and have component geometry that is generally more forgiving. For the bolt carrier, I'd probably be a little nervous about wear and galling in the cam pin path, and maybe the threaded holes for the gas key are marginal, but otherwise a titanium component of that size and shape is going to be incredibly robust.

 

[E. Bryant]

Have you watched the specific video I put the link to?

To me ALL metering is a guideline at best. Everything else is getting in the weeds.

Unless there is obvious "cheating" going on (ie using under power ammo or something) then all of it is a guideline only for consumers.

I have watched that video, and the detail provided near the end is pretty cool. Unfortunately, subsequent testing data (at least what I've seen Griffin post here) only shows peak values, and that includes the videos they've posting in their own thread on this topic. If I've missed follow-on videos or posts with more detail, hopefully someone will point me in the correct direction.

Metering done under controlled conditions should allow comparison of one suppressor to its peers. It's not a guarantee of performance under different conditions. Introducing a reflective surface or simply going from standing to prone may indeed change the "dose" sufficiently to affect the risk of hearing damage, particularly when shooting high volumes during practice or competition.

There's also substantial individual sensitivity, especially with regards to that caused by prior damage (and I bet that everyone reading this thread has some amount of hearing damage).

Ultimately, there is no such thing as the complete elimination of risk - only risk management to a level that can be accepted by an individual. Suppressors are potentially a useful tool for achieving this goal. Note that this is also true of virtually any other real-world activity that is productive and/or interesting. "Safety" is not absolute.

 

[Clayman]

Unless there is obvious "cheating" going on

You mean something Griffin is historically known for doing. They were banned from silencertalk for that reason.

Watch their intro to testing video. They explain all of that and more

They haven't done any of that yet from what I've seen and regardless I was referring to your post talking about just peak db numbers, which are almost worthless when comparing silencers of a similar db range. When silencers are relatively close in peak db, peak db will not accurately tell you which silencer is actually quiter to the human ear. The one with a higher peak might actually be less damaging. Potentially less damaging to a not so insignificant amount depending on the designs, shape and duration of the event.

If you can get the same db in a open field as you can inside an indoor shooting range the data is worthless for showing objective loudness to an end user.

Peak db data would suggest a shot peaking at 133db at an indoor range is quieter than a shot peaking at 134db outside in an open field. Which of course is laughable.

 

[alamo5000]

You mean something Griffin is historically known for doing. They were banned from silencertalk for that reason.

It was just a matter of time until a hater showed up.

Regardless, I'm not an engineer nor have I ever ran a meter test, much less care about doing so.

The nuance of how decibels work or are measured is outside of my realm of care, concern, or experience. Hence trying to debate me over something anyone else does is a big no thank you from me.

At the end of the day in general Griffin makes excellent suppressors despite what the online hater crowd wants to think.

 

[jb0311]

Do you use a Dominus or K on gas guns? I’m waiting on a K, but if it ends up on a gas gun it’ll just be filling in until I get something like the SCI-Six, 556k, RC3 (confirmed yet?), etc.

I certainly like my ultra 7, but I don’t see how using basically the same baffle design in a slightly different configuration is going to make for a low-backpressure can. It would be nice to see it reviewed, but there seems to be little interest from the gas gun world at large.

Sorry meant to come back to this. I run the dominus k mostly on my 12.5 barrel, but just depending on what I’m doing really. I rarely shoot my sbrs from a bench, so I tend to run shorter cans on them. There was a thread from Ray on here that ran the numbers, can’t find it at the moment but while he discusses backpressure, he doesn’t/didn’t have any real way to measure actuaI backpressure. I’d venture the length and width is your answer on that one. I’m still wanting to get an ultra 7 for a bolt gun build, to be honest I’m overloaded with gassers and trying to build up some good bolt guns now, so more than likely any suppressor for the foreseeable future will have a dedicated ba host. I have a couple RC2s already for hard use cans and would probably pick up an RC3 when available.

It’s also worth noting I prioritize overall size when going with my sbr builds. I’m already wearing ear pro (anyone that tells you they have a hearing safe sbr running supers is a retard) and I don’t see much point in building a sbr just to put a pringles can on the end to make it long again. So backpressure, flash, and size are my criteria, with overall suppression being a tie breaker of sorts.

Not sure if that answers anything for you. I’m not an engineer and tbac will do a much better job at explaining the why between the dominus and 7s, but volume would be my hunch.

 

[houndog]

Some really interesting info here. Particularly E. Bryant. Many thanks.

Personally, I've never obsessed over db's. I have several suppressors and other than thinking my DA Nomad TI is slightly quieter and has a better "tone" than my Sandman S, would be hard pressed to rank which is quietest, particularly since I always shoot with some type of hearing protection. All I know is there all a hell of a lot better than shooting unsuppressed, particularly since the range I generally shoot at has a firing line with a semi-enclosed structure - i.e. enclosed on three sides and with a roof. I was not making a lot of friends when I showed up on the firing line with a 10.5" AR15 or a 14.5" AR10 with a muzzle brake. And of course, db when standing to the side is different than db when you are behind the rifle. For me, depending on the application, I either care about weight or durability, with ease of attachment coming in second, back pressure coming in third and db rating kind of bringing up the rear.

 

[Clayman]

It was just a matter of time until a hater showed up.

Regardless, I'm not an engineer nor have I ever ran a meter test, much less care about doing so.

The nuance of how decibels work or are measured is outside of my realm of care, concern, or experience. Hence trying to debate me over something anyone else does is a big no thank you from me.

At the end of the day in general Griffin makes excellent suppressors despite what the online hater crowd wants to think.

You just happened to mention cheating on tests, I was just pointing out that Griffin has done that in the past. If that makes me a hater, thats fine. Hell maybe I am, Idk about you but I'm not a big fan of liars, especially when it comes to a product that costs a non-trivial amount, requires a $200 tax and long waiting time. I at no point said anything about the quality or performance of Griffin's current products. They very well might be great and perform perfectly for many people's use cases.

The main thing I was trying to explain to you if you are telling others that X's 7.62 can is within 1 db of their 5.56 can it is largely irrelevant as it doesn't accurately represent objective loudness to the end user. Real data has shown that 5.56 silencers performance on 5.56 is noticeable better than 7.62 silencers and peak db tests do not show this.

 

[HaydenLane]

Sorry meant to come back to this. I run the dominus k mostly on my 12.5 barrel, but just depending on what I’m doing really. I rarely shoot my sbrs from a bench, so I tend to run shorter cans on them. There was a thread from Ray on here that ran the numbers, can’t find it at the moment but while he discusses backpressure, he doesn’t/didn’t have any real way to measure actuaI backpressure. I’d venture the length and width is your answer on that one. I’m still wanting to get an ultra 7 for a bolt gun build, to be honest I’m overloaded with gassers and trying to build up some good bolt guns now, so more than likely any suppressor for the foreseeable future will have a dedicated ba host. I have a couple RC2s already for hard use cans and would probably pick up an RC3 when available.

It’s also worth noting I prioritize overall size when going with my sbr builds. I’m already wearing ear pro (anyone that tells you they have a hearing safe sbr running supers is a retard) and I don’t see much point in building a sbr just to put a pringles can on the end to make it long again. So backpressure, flash, and size are my criteria, with overall suppression being a tie breaker of sorts.

Not sure if that answers anything for you. I’m not an engineer and tbac will do a much better job at explaining the why between the dominus and 7s, but volume would be my hunch.

I appreciate you sharing your experience. Every anecdote helps to paint the picture.

I tend to trust PS testing, which generally shows shorter length being a positive for back pressure, but larger bore diameter not being particularly helpful. Baffle design/gas flow still reigns supreme.

Ultimately I ask because I have no gas gun dedicated cans, and I’ll have a Dominus-K long before I get one, so it’s likely to find itself on an (untuned) AR on occasion.

As an aside, I’m certain you’d be pleased with the Ultra 7. It’s the perfect balance of weight and sound suppression for a well rounded rifle.

 

[Ape_Factory]

Can confirm this as well. I was considering an OSS for a couple of 10.5 and 12.5" sbrs for night hunting/ shooting and got behind a friends and they were not NOD friendly in my experience. Not sure if that is down the line for flow through but it would stand to reason that is the case. No experience downrange with them as we used surefire at the time (a decade or so ago) but not sure what they use now.

Interesting point. Last time at the indoor range, I had my OSS 762Ti on a 12.5" 5.56 rifle and first round flash was noticeable but non-existent in subsequent rounds. And this is not the new version with the flash hider. Just something I observed and thought was interesting. Granted, in complete darkness the subsequent flash might be more substantial.

I also found it interesting almost all of the new suppressors released at Shot Show this year were flow designs. Not all but the overall percentage of flow-through was surprising. I think all that R&D is only going to improve flow through suppressors in all performance categories including flash suppression. Regular baffles, like FDE, are dead.

 

[30calDeath]

They are excellent cans. I have the 30 cal version. To me these are probably the best overall can for an AR. People are going to read that and go 100 different directions about cans that are quieter or whatever...but hear me out.

On an AR especially shooting 5.56 you will be wearing ear pro. You might sneak off one or two shots, but any more that that is not wise. With these cans you do give up some muzzle sound (slightly louder than some of the other cans I have) but the focus with these cans is on gas flow balance. By that I mean the muzzle isn't constricted so much that nothing gets out (thus causing more back pressure and a much louder heavier port pop). It's designed with a balance in mind. So yes you give up a couple of DB at the muzzle, but you gain a few (quieter) at the ear.

That 'overall balance' of gas and sound makes it excellent for an AR. Plus it's extremely light. If I didn't already have a bunch of cans I would buy one in 5.56. Even with that said, I still might buy one in 5.56 simply because I like the 30 cal version so much. In hindsight if I were buying cans all over again most if not all would be those or something similar. That said I love what I have and the Explorr series didn't exist back when I started.

Another good thing is Griffin allows you to upgrade. For example I bought a can back like 2015 or something like that. In between now and then baffle technology has improved as has the overall design of cans. So I mailed my can back to them and they replaced all the baffles with the latest and greatest thing. It cost me a couple hundred bucks but I got something like 10-12 Db (better) at the ear because of generational improvements while being within 1-2 Db of the original at the muzzle. With pretty much everyone else you just need to buy a whole new can but at least with Griffin you can upgrade existing cans.

In any case those Explorr series cans are awesome. Extremely light and rugged. Also if you ever get a baffle strike they just saw the baffles off and weld a new stack in place. Also they engrave them up closer to the mount area, behind any baffles. If you get a strike, no factor to fix it. Like I said, I am tempted to buy another can even though I really don't need it. But the one I have already is awesome. They are definitely not the quietest by any measure (ear/muzzle) but the overall package of what it delivers is great.

Of course this is what I like to hear, I have a Griffin Explorr that I should be getting sometime in March or April. Been hearing really good things about Griffin cans.

 

[jb0311]

Interesting point. Last time at the indoor range, I had my OSS 762Ti on a 12.5" 5.56 rifle and first round flash was noticeable but non-existent in subsequent rounds. And this is not the new version with the flash hider. Just something I observed and thought was interesting. Granted, in complete darkness the subsequent flash might be more substantial.

I also found it interesting almost all of the new suppressors released at Shot Show this year were flow designs. Not all but the overall percentage of flow-through was surprising. I think all that R&D is only going to improve flow through suppressors in all performance categories including flash suppression. Regular baffles, like FDE, are dead.

Not sure the reason, and obviously more noticeable with NV, but I would guess because of the amount of gasses/powder exiting the can rather than being contained and pushed back the opposite way.

On your second point…

That makes perfect sense to me that flow through are, and are getting more, popular with the masses. MSRs are still extremely popular and have been among the average consumer. How many people do you know that shoot at night, sustained not hunting, under nods? Same with the K cans. Most consumers don’t seem to want them because they generally sacrifice sound levels for size. Size isn’t the main factor for most people who, for the most part, shoot at a bench or in a stand.
My point being, when checking boxes, there’s more demand for less backpressure/gas to the face than there is for flash signature. Just because I prioritize size and flash sig on my ar suppressors, I’m under no illusion that I am anywhere close to the majority there.

I do plan on picking up a flow through at some point, just really not on my short list now.

 

[Clayman]

Not sure if that is down the line for flow through but it would stand to reason that is the case.

Their newer offerings have made strides to reduce flash. Might not be as good as an RC2 but they're significantly better than their older stuff.

Old

Vs

New

But because the new ones are dmls you may need to fire a few hundred rounds to remove some small amount of sparking.