.5 MOA Rifle??

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brianfarriel

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Apr 8, 2009
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#1
Ok...
Had a custom rifle built by a "reputable" gunsmith with high quality components. The gunsmith "guaranteed" .5-.25 MOA accuracy. His quote was "if it won't shoot, we'll make it shoot".

After nearly a year and 450 rounds down the rock barrel it still won't shoot.

Here's the question: what should be acceptable accuracy?

The guy has been updating me on his range sessions but this is the latest

- shot two 3 shot groups with 68 gr retumbo 168 burger both were around .6
He said he would go another day to re- try the load
- shot a single 4 shot group, shot around .9
He said that was good enough because of the last 10 shots fired from this load all were within .6 with only one flyer. I asked him to go back and re-shoot to verify consistency
- shot a 4 shot group and a 5 shot group and the 5 was .9 and the 4 was .8

This is consistent since the rifle came home... Very consistent flyers without any pattern

Other info;
Had to have the stock re-bedded, did a shotty job and was making contact on tip of stock
Had to carry back because had barrel contour wrong
Many other problems too long to continue

What should I do?
7WSM
700 long action
McMillan stock
Jewell trigger
Rock barrel
 
#2
In this case, acceptable accuracy is .25-.5MOA, because that's what was promised. That said, there are only a handful of consistent .5MOA shooters and I don't know a single person that's a consistent .25MOA shooter off a bipod and rear bag (although I know a few people who claim to be). I'm sure they exist, I just haven't seen it. Unless, of course, we're talking about 3 shot groups and not 5 shot groups.

At this point, ammo is going to make a huge difference, as well. A good load can easily turn a 1MOA gun into a .5MOA gun and vice versa.

Also, some clarification on your story.... Who is "the guy"? Is this your rifle? If so, why does "the guy" have it? Is "the guy" a known good shooter?

Anyways, hope you get everything sorted out.
 
#3
I have a gap in 7wsm and tried 6 different loads using h4831sc with 168gr Berger's. Naturally these were 3 shot groups for OCW but my largest group was .57" and smallest was .36". I haven't had a load with berger bullets shoot >.75" 3 or 5 round strings yet.

Problem could be shooter, load, rifle, or a combination thereof. I wouldn't accept it until it delivered on the accuracy as promised.
 
#5
How about calling the gunsmith and asking if you can send it back to him to check out... and tell him the problems...I he gets Iit back and I doesnt shoot for him either theres a problem... Iif he gets tight groups then Its shooter error... can be lots of factors here...
 
#6
Hopefully he's putting on a new free barrel!

How many of the 450 were yours before you sent it back? At a minimum I'd want it rechambered, as close to half of the throat life may be gone.

I have a stock sendero in 7mm that prints .5-6moa 5 shot groups routinely. During load development I shot 2 consecutive groups that were .3moa with 2 different loads.

Best of luck. The man owes you what was promised, a .25- .5moa rifle.
 
#7
You also haven't discussed your ammo, load testing or reloading practices if you do reload. Do you reload for it or use factory ammo? There's all kinds of unknown variables that work in this equation. If you are getting good groups with a single flier I'd start looking at ammo first not the rifle IMHO.


L
 
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#8
Here's a little more info... I was on my phone when I originally posted so was limited on typing power

I'm not going to burn the gunsmith yet, but reserve the right to if he does not make it right.

I received the rifle and properly "broke in" the barrel per Mike Rock's directions, then went to working on load development
I've tried all the following powder/bullet combinations and also used directions from the article on this site to find the proper seating depth for each of these combo's

Powder
- 4831SC
- H1000
- RL22

Bullets
- Berger 180 VLD
- Berger 168 VLD
- Berger 168 Hybrid
- 154 SST Hornady

My closest load was RL22 with 168 Berger VLD's and it would consistently shoot 2/4 shots inside of .5 with the other one or two at .8-1.0 for a composite 4 shot group of .8-1.0. There was always flyers. At about 250 rounds of this I took the stock off and found that the tip of the stock was making contact with the barrel, the finish was rubbed off the barrel. I carried it to another gunsmith to check it out and he said it was the worst bedding job he has ever seen. The actions screws were not floated and the bottom metal was not seated properly. He re-bedded the stock and I had hopes that this would fix the rifle. After another 100 shots I said to hell with it and carried it back to the original gunsmith.

To date the gunsmith himself has shot the rifle 125 rounds trying to find "the load" and has experienced the same thing that I did, there are always those flyers with no pattern to them.

I have a GAP 7 WSM also and it does not have these problems, it took about 75 rounds to find a load and now it always shoot between .4 and .6.

I guess my question is for those guys who have had lots of custom rifles built, what is common with good rifle builders? How many rounds to a shooter load and how consistent should it shoot that .5 MOA group. My expectation is pretty low right now I think. If I could get it to shoot between .4 and .6 3 out of 4 3 shot groups, I would be satisfied. What do yall think?
 
#9
Find a new smith I can PM you for a suggestion. My smith does not guarantee any particular accuracy standard, but I have yet to see one he built that would not shoot below .5MOA with a well made load and it has never taken 450 rounds to find it, in one of his rifles. He built himself a 300WM that routinely shoots in the low 3's and high 2's. My '06 would shoot .6 with the worst loads I ever loaded for it, litterally anything I put in it would come very close to .5 and those were TEN shot groups. I don't always rate a gun by its ability to throw itty bitty 100yd groups, it can be a good indicator of accuracy and sometimes it isn't. If your gun is for long range don't judge it on 100yd groups alone. You may be missing something.just because it shoots .3 at 100 doesn't always equate to 1 inch at 300yds.
 
#11
This 308 took me about 200 or so shots to realize the rifle shoots .5moa out to 300yds, all I really had to do is set the correct seating depth, and save the varget for my 708, hehe.
Fwiw, when I used to shoot my factory 700 6mmREM with a bi-pod, I or the rifle would consistently shoot in the 2s, 3s and 4s out to 100yds, occasionally Id get some groups over 1/2" but they were few and far between, I attribute my good groups to a 9oz jewell trigger and a pretty good load, Sierra 75 & 70gr MK bullets. 5 shots always! Sometimes 10.
SJa1oC5.jpg

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#12
It is easy for a company to claim/ garuantee a quarter min gun,. because they know how hard it is to prove that the gun will not shoot .25. They know that most people cannot shoot with that kind of accuracy. They can always blame it on the ammo or any other variable.
 
#13
I would have a real tough time paying so much for a custom build only to get those kind of results. I have seen and heard of a lot of smiths that wouldn't accept that and definitely wouldn't let it go that way. Word of mouth is half the battle it seems. The "terrible bedding job" was a good indicator of a sour deal in my opinion.

I have a factory 700 varmint in 308 that was in a B&C medallist with full length aluminum block, 26" barrel. It would consistently shoot 1.25" 5 shot groups at 100 yards. I cut the barrel down to 18" and put it in a Manners T5 with the mini chassis and the groups tightened up a good bit.

This was just a few days ago at a range that I have to shoot off of a bench (rather shoot prone). Shot with bipod and rear bag. This was also the only shots I fired that day from that rig and a few (one in particular haha) didn't feel too good. I'd say I averaged 1 shot per 15-20 seconds through the whole string and she was good and hot after the first 5. The "flyer" (terrible shot on my part) was on my 3rd shot. Southwest 175s were used, never messed with a custom load in the gun.

You can see vertical stringing (cheek weld, breathing, loading the bipod) and a few inconsistent trigger pulls (maybe too much finger on the trigger, getting snatchy etc) so I need more practice but your custom build shouldn't have random flyers with good fundamentals, trigger control, breath cycle, follow through, consistent loading of the bipod, straight back trigger pull, straight behind the rifle, checking parallax, not dragging wood...
 

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#15
I say if the builder has 125 rounds fired of his own and he has he same results then it's on him to make it right. It's one thing for him to shoot and produce consistent acceptable results that fall within his "guarantee" but if he can't make it shoot then it's time for him step up or you can go to another builder than will make it right. Go to a builder that guarantees a certain accuracy node using Match ammo that's available to buy. Not every rifle especially custom builds should need to have hand rolled ammo to make them shoot or everyone have all the reloading equipment / time to find that favorite load.
 
#16
The simple answer is if the smith guarantees .5 to .25 MOA then he should be able to produce a .5 MOA group with the rifle or put the rifle in the hands of someone who can. Being that you didn't ask then he probably only has to produce one 3 shot group under 0.5 MOA and he can call it a day. The unfortunate thing is that the donor rifle he probably started with was probably capable of meeting that goal. My question would be if there was a guarantee I'd first ask ok what is the guarantee .5 or .25 and my next question would be with how many shots and how many times in a row...

Sure hope you get things cleaned up or you get out from under this one.

~Brett
 
#17
Rade1MOA said:
It is easy for a company to claim/ garuantee a quarter min gun,. because they know how hard it is to prove that the gun will not shoot .25. They know that most people cannot shoot with that kind of accuracy. They can always blame it on the ammo or any other variable.
Click to expand...

Mike at TacOps will take his sticks and put holes in a piece of paper for you proving it before he ships it off.

~Brett
 
#20
sr15match said:
I say if the builder has 125 rounds fired of his own and he has he same results then it's on him to make it right. It's one thing for him to shoot and produce consistent acceptable results that fall within his "guarantee" but if he can't make it shoot then it's time for him step up or you can go to another builder than will make it right. Go to a builder that guarantees a certain accuracy node using Match ammo that's available to buy. Not every rifle especially custom builds should need to have hand rolled ammo to make them shoot or everyone have all the reloading equipment / time to find that favorite load.
Click to expand...

I agree. The builder shouldn't have had to shoot 125 rounds to realize it wasn't shooting right. To the OP, the smith should have made this right a long time ago. Seems like he doesn't want to admit that the rifle won't shoot. My advice is to kindly request a refund, new gun, or new barrel. I'd probably try to get a refund. Right now he's just wasting time, ammo, and barrel life shooting your gun.
 
#21
Its very possible IMO that the barrel itself isnt capable of that kind of accuracy.After multiple powder/bullet combos/several different shooters and if the smith has went thru the rifle and made sure everything is correct that pretty much leaves one thing.The barrel.Hey you can buy a new car that's fubared,, and that applies to custom barrels as well,, every now and then,, every maker lets a bad one get out the door.It happens although rare.
 
#22
Temp9 said:
I agree. The builder shouldn't have had to shoot 125 rounds to realize it wasn't shooting right. To the OP, the smith should have made this right a long time ago. Seems like he doesn't want to admit that the rifle won't shoot. My advice is to kindly request a refund, new gun, or new barrel. I'd probably try to get a refund. Right now he's just wasting time, ammo, and barrel life shooting your gun.
Click to expand...

unless there is something totally unique or sentimental about the rig I would request a refund and move on. How much time, money and energy will you have to expend to get it to where you we're promised. And then you'd still have a rifle in your quiver that reminded you of all the headache.

Mitch

Sent from my SGH-T769 using Tapatalk 2
 
#23
A custom gun in that price range should shoot better than a stock precision rifle. And in my opinion, shooting .9 moa groups with hand loads is barely acceptable for a stock precision rifle.

If you were shooting consistent .5-.6 moa, that's one thing, but having "fliers" tells me something is wrong.
 
#24
lte82 said:
A custom gun in that price range should shoot better than a stock precision rifle. And in my opinion, shooting .9 moa groups with hand loads is barely acceptable for a stock precision rifle.

If you were shooting consistent .5-.6 moa, that's one thing, but having "fliers" tells me something is wrong.
Click to expand...

When you said fliers saying something is wrong.. is it from the gun coz ive been having this id be puting one bug hole on the 4shot then here come 5th and its a FLIER! this happening on 3 5shots group one hole and one flier not necessary 5th shot all the time.. is this coming from gun or load?
 
#26
bjay said:
When you said fliers saying something is wrong.. is it from the gun coz ive been having this id be puting one bug hole on the 4shot then here come 5th and its a FLIER! this happening on 3 5shots group one hole and one flier not necessary 5th shot all the time.. is this coming from gun or load?
Click to expand...

What's your ES/SD? Do you see a velocity difference between the bug hole shots and the flier?
 
#30
Sounds like you have a rifle that's not even Sub MOA, much less .5. There was only 1 5 shot group mentioned in the thread, and that one was unverifiable and the shooter claimed it was .9. If .9 is the BEST 5 shot group it's produced, the average is higher than that. I would personally forget about the 3 and 4 shot groups when trying to determine how accurate the rifle is. Hell, even 5 shot groups are somewhat suspect, but a much better indicator. I'd ask him to replace the barrel and go from there. If that doesn't work, take it to a different gunsmith and get it fixed.
 
#33
On the Berger VLD in my 7SAUM it did not shoot to my expectations until I jammed the bullets. I tried multiple powders, charge weighs and jump lengths. Then I jammed them 0.015" and everything shrunk.
 
#34
The barrel is a Rock Creek... But the rest of the story is that they had to turn the barrel 3 different times because the contour/finish wasn't done right... Rock creek barrels are solid... Really like Mike...
 
#35
Not an ideal situation with a overbore caliber with limited barrel life. I would ask the gunsmith for a recommended load recipe and if it still doesn't shoot and you know it isn't the shooter than send it back. You can play with seating length, neck turning, etc...as well.
 
#37
I dont know much about rock creek barrels,THEY ARE AWESOME BARRELS!!! I was able to purchase one for 250 bucks and have it within a week but I opeted for the 3 month wait for my loather walther.
But Im glad he held is word and hope the rifle shoots, but also most shooters are not .25 moa shooters, can the rifle shoot that? maybe, but it depends how well he mounts, chambers, the chamber. does he use a seaperate remer for cutting the throat or is it one piece remer. Just so much goes into making a good shooting rifle.
 
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#38
RanchhandTCR said:
I dont know much about rock creek barrels, but I would not really waste my time with one. I was able to purchase one for 250 bucks and have it within a week but I opeted for the 3 month wait for my loather walther.
But Im glad he held is word and hope the rifle shoots, but also most shooters are not .25 moa shooters, can the rifle shoot that? maybe, but it depends how well he mounts, chambers, the chamber. does he use a seaperate remer for cutting the throat or is it one piece remer. Just so much goes into making a good shooting rifle.
Click to expand...

I think there will be quite few people that will disagree with you about your opinion on barrel manufacturers.
 
#39
Im quite sure of that, but that was just "my" oppinion, and along with my lack of knowledge of the barrel manufacture I did not go with one. Im just glad his smith kept his word. Im no gun smith. . But hope you get the new barrel and she shoots splendid!
 
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#40
brianfarriel said:
Ok...
Had a custom rifle built by a "reputable" gunsmith with high quality components. The gunsmith "guaranteed" .5-.25 MOA accuracy. His quote was "if it won't shoot, we'll make it shoot".

After nearly a year and 450 rounds down the rock barrel it still won't shoot.

Here's the question: what should be acceptable accuracy?

The guy has been updating me on his range sessions but this is the latest

- shot two 3 shot groups with 68 gr retumbo 168 burger both were around .6
He said he would go another day to re- try the load
- shot a single 4 shot group, shot around .9
He said that was good enough because of the last 10 shots fired from this load all were within .6 with only one flyer. I asked him to go back and re-shoot to verify consistency
- shot a 4 shot group and a 5 shot group and the 5 was .9 and the 4 was .8

This is consistent since the rifle came home... Very consistent flyers without any pattern

Other info;
Had to have the stock re-bedded, did a shotty job and was making contact on tip of stock
Had to carry back because had barrel contour wrong
Many other problems too long to continue

What should I do?
7WSM
700 long action
McMillan stock
Jewell trigger
Rock barrel
Click to expand...


Ha... Tell Don "the motha fucka" ain't shooting.... :)
 
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