.5 off the lands too much?

[D loop darrell]

Ok that's bs. Glad you're here though. Im getting sub 1/2 moa going 0.100 off the lands. I just rechecked the rifles chamber to make sure. The internet is full of "0.001 off the lands" advice. I tried that with different loads and it was never good. Finally backed out to 2.770 and walaa. Bullets stack. Sub 2" at 500 yards. So, is there any merit to the 0.001 off the lands? What's your distance from the lands?

300wm, 77.8 Retumbo, 220gn eldx, 2.770 ogiv, hornday brass, win large mag primer. X bolt LRH. Boyd's stock. US optics FDN17. Bradley cheek riser

 

[Gustav7]

I'm running 147 ELD-M's at 0.050 off right now for load development, but I'm doing a seating depth test out to 0.090"... never know until you try. Hoping the difference of 0.040" doesn't increase pressure that much. 0.002" neck tension.

 

[ThreeBravo]

Mine is different for each bullet, I got my best results in my 6.5 cm pushing 140 eldms at .020 off, but with the 130 rdf I was at .070.

I think different bullet styles do better with different jump lengths, some are very picky and some can be loaded anywhere and almost no difference.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

American Gunner 6.5CM is .05 off and it has shot the best of any factory ammo I tried.

Lehigh match solids are over .1 just to fit in a mag and shoot great.

 

[Doom]

Many commercial chambers, especially 30 caliber have a lot of free bore. My 308 Remington easily has more tha .120 with the 168 SMK seated at 2.800”. To reach the lands only the boattail is in the case. And yes, it 1/2 moa.

 

[M1Army]

I normally start at .020 and go from there...... As mentioned before I think each rifle has it preferred measurement our goal is to find it.

 

[straightshooter1]

Ok that's bs. Glad you're here though. Im getting sub 1/2 moa going 0.100 off the lands. I just rechecked the rifles chamber to make sure. The internet is full of "0.001 off the lands" advice. I tried that with different loads and it was never good. Finally backed out to 2.770 and walaa. Bullets stack. Sub 2" at 500 yards. So, is there any merit to the 0.001 off the lands? What's your distance from the lands?

300wm, 77.8 Retumbo, 220gn eldx, 2.770 ogiv, hornday brass, win large mag primer. X bolt LRH. Boyd's stock. US optics FDN17. Bradley cheek riser

It really depends on the harmonics of your particular barrel. I think around .050 works well for a lot of them. One just needs to find the seating depth that works best. Many people like to seat their's long to increase case volume in order to get maximum velocities (and if one doesn't mind single loading when they don't fit their magazine - or unless they have a very custom build the gives them really small groups). There's a series of articles at Precision Rifle Blog if you haven't seen it yet that might answer any questions you have.

More Bullet Jump Research!

This is the 4th article in a series on some new research on bullet jumps. Here is a recap of the pr...

precisionrifleblog.com

 

[Steel head]

Jumping an eighth of an inch or more isn’t a big deal as long as the bullet tolerates it.

 

[drothgeb]

I actually just ran into the precision rifle blogs straightshooter1 linked above. They post a good amount of data that suggests .045-.06ish range was the sweet spot depending on which bullet they were testing. I plan to get my own data as well but I've been running either .01 off lands or magazine limit for a while without ever playing with it much.

 

[Gustav7]

It really depends on the harmonics of your particular barrel. I think around .050 works well for a lot of them. One just needs to find the seating depth that works best. Many people like to seat their's long to increase case volume in order to get maximum velocities (and if one doesn't mind single loading when they don't fit their magazine - or unless they have a very custom build the gives them really small groups). There's a series of articles at Precision Rifle Blog if you haven't seen it yet that might answer any questions you have.

More Bullet Jump Research!

This is the 4th article in a series on some new research on bullet jumps. Here is a recap of the pr...

precisionrifleblog.com

Damn thats a great article, and luckily done with the same bullet I'm using...and ironically I arbitrarily picked 0.050" off the lands as a middle number, but turns out its probably the best spot anyways.

 

[Petrov]

Sorry for the tangent but which methods and tools do you folks use to measure ogive to lands distance?

 

[spife7980]

Sorry for the tangent but which methods and tools do you folks use to measure ogive to lands distance?

 

[straightshooter1]

Sorry for the tangent but which methods and tools do you folks use to measure ogive to lands distance?

As you seem to be aware of, there are some different methods, and the different methods will have different error factors. Often, the question is, what's the "best" method, which often means. . . what is the most accurate method. But just how accurate does one "need" to be?

If one is shooting at a very high level and is trying to maintain as much consistency as possible, the being really accurate with the distance to the lands is important. But in some types of competitive shooting, it may not be all that important as suggested in the articles in the Precision Rifle Blog points out.

So, with that understood, I'll say I'm one of those that doesn't need to have a very accurate measurement to get the results I want (especially when I consider that the lands is always moving and different every time I finish a day of shooting). Therefore, I use a simple method of inserting a dummy cartridge where the bullet can slide as I close and lock down the bolt (see pic below), then measure it with a comparator. Though I've tried some of the more accurate methods which takes way more effort, I find this method gets me pretty close.

 

[47guy]

i use the hornady tool and i start .005 off the lands because if i need to adjust seating its only 1 way im not wasting time guessing if closer would be better.

 

[straightshooter1]

i use the hornady tool and i start .005 off the lands because if i need to adjust seating its only 1 way im not wasting time guessing if closer would be better.

I start off close to the lands as well. But it seems to minimize the amount of time and material used, the issue is how does one go about doing that, like what increments away from the lands should one use to get to the optimum seating depth?

The articles on seating depth in the Precision Rifle Blog suggests a good method. What d'ah think?

 

[TRyanOC]

This video is awesome. This is what I do now.

 

[47guy]

I start off close to the lands as well. But it seems to minimize the amount of time and material used, the issue is how does one go about doing that, like what increments away from the lands should one use to get to the optimum seating depth?

The articles on seating depth in the Precision Rifle Blog suggests a good method. What d'ah think?

i go .005 at a time IF .005 does not shoot well i go .010 .015 .020 .025 some where in there its going to shoot...i see guys running .050-.100 personally ive only had 1 barrel shot past .035 off....ive done a ton of load development so i stick to simple...i do not go with the latest greats because 9x outta 10 the lastest greatest ends up being a waste of my time and barrel life.

i also only shoot 3 shot groups until i settle on a load but im not a group shooter so i rarely shoot 5+ shot groups anyway.

 

[260284]

After reading the Precision Rifle Blog, I did a seating test on my new 6.5 Creedmoor barrel with the 140 ELDM. I had a load that shot in the .25" range that was loaded .020" off the lands, so I seated 10 each from .025" to .060" and shot them at 100 yards round robin style, 5 shot groups. The .055" shot the best at .18", but everything was less than .35". I shot 3 of these on steel at 416 yards, but didn't have anything on hand to measure the group with, measured the knife in the picture and it looks to be just under 3/4" center to center.

 

[straightshooter1]

This video is awesome. This is what I do now.

Here's a method that's said to be even more accurate way of finding the distance to the lands:

 

[flyright]

I like the Berger method of starting about .01 off the lands or max mag length, whichever is less and seating back .04 at a time. Mag length is usually your limit with an AR and not even close to the lands. So, if I'm using a PMag I'm stuck at about 2.83 OAL so I'll then measure that BTO and seat back another .04 and .08 and shoot some groups with those. You'll definitely see a preference then tweak from there. I have one AR that shoots awesome with the bullets seated short but, for the most part, .04 to .06 off seems to be a common sweet spot for all my rifles shooting ELD's and Bergers.

 

[D loop darrell]

Sorry for the tangent but which methods and tools do you folks use to measure ogive to lands distance?

Just takes a few tools. An OAL gauge, brass, bullet, micrometer, and that thing on my micrometer. Comparator? I think. The OAL gauge pushes a loose bullet into you barrel. You lock the push rod in place and then remove everything from your rifle. With the oal gauge out, put the bullet back into the brass until it hits the pushrod you locked into place. Now measure the bullet from the ogiv with your micrometer. Simple.

 

[Petrov]

Ah yes that tool. Tried it, too inconsistent for me

 

[D loop darrell]

Worked fine on my 243 and 300wm. Both under 1/2 moa at 100 the 300wm is much better than 1/2 moa at 500. Gotten the same measurement from my 300wm for 3 years now. Just did a velocity check earlier. 2933 and 2923 and error. First round I wasn't aimed flat over the thing and cause the error. Same velocity as last year.

 

[D loop darrell]

I start off close to the lands as well. But it seems to minimize the amount of time and material used, the issue is how does one go about doing that, like what increments away from the lands should one use to get to the optimum seating depth?

The articles on seating depth in the Precision Rifle Blog suggests a good method. What d'ah think?

I went .001 to .003 .005 .007 and .010. Then, after that, that very day. I found out the my magazine wont load those rounds. So... I went home and kept moving the bullet back until they fed smoothly. Then I made a batch of 4 rounds each that varied in length from that point. If you're using a magazine, figure out what length feeds well. Then adjust your powder instead of your seating depth. Cause they gotta feed to fire.

 

[Petrov]

Worked fine on my 243 and 300wm. Both under 1/2 moa at 100 the 300wm is much better than 1/2 moa at 500. Gotten the same measurement from my 300wm for 3 years now. Just did a velocity check earlier. 2933 and 2923 and error. First round I wasn't aimed flat over the thing and cause the error. Same velocity as last year.

Hey man, I am glad it works for you. I just cant seem to get any consistency out of it.

 

[D loop darrell]

I'm just over the max col. To be honest I can't say that the Hornady OAL gauge reading is true. It just give you a starting point. If you press harder or lighter when seating the bullet with that tool you can change the reading. When I say .1 off the lands what im really saying is ".1 off the measurement the OAL tool gave me." Im sure, if you are truly after perfection, there is a better way. All good guys! Thanks

 

[straightshooter1]

I went .001 to .003 .005 .007 and .010. Then, after that, that very day. I found out the my magazine wont load those rounds. So... I went home and kept moving the bullet back until they fed smoothly. Then I made a batch of 4 rounds each that varied in length from that point. If you're using a magazine, figure out what length feeds well. Then adjust your powder instead of your seating depth. Cause they gotta feed to fire.

I've got aftermarket mags that allow me to seat really long and have not had any problems reaching out to the lands . . . though, I have not be really been using any really long, low BC, projectiles, which I'd have to take a different approach with. Typically, seating to within .010 and .020 has given me good results in my gun where I get less than .5 MOA (often in the .3's and sometimes better). So, I'll start .005 off the lands (per my own measuring technique) and move back at .005 increments to .030. And I do this after I've determined a powder load that's near a accuracy node (per QuickLoad) and gives me somewhat tight and consistent groups per OCW testing.

But, doing the seating testing first and then the adjustments in powder technique sounds intriguing to me and have been wanting to do that with the new Berger 185 Jugs I got, but haven't been able to get out in 6 weeks now since everything has been shut down. First opportunity I get I'll be out shooting now that I've got a bunch of ammo loaded up ready to go. My trigger finger is getting awfully itchy.

Interestingly, just before everything shut down, I fired a buch of Federal Premium Match cartridges I had laying around since last year. All my 5 shot groups were less than .5 MOA and these factory loads were .060 off my lands. I was expecting something around .75 MOA. . . but go figure.

 

[47guy]

Ah yes that tool. Tried it, too inconsistent for me

or are you to inconsistent for the tool? i have no issues getting consistent measurements...remember its just giving you a starting point there is no perfect way.

 

[ken4570tc in WY]

This is directly from the Berger Bullet website...

The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.

The link for the entire document is <https://bergerbullets.com/getting-the-best-precision-and-accuracy-from-vld-bullets-in-your-rifle/>

I've yet to work with their system but it's worth trying a wide range of seating depths even with non-VLD bullets.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

After reading the Precision Rifle Blog, I did a seating test on my new 6.5 Creedmoor barrel with the 140 ELDM. I had a load that shot in the .25" range that was loaded .020" off the lands, so I seated 10 each from .025" to .060" and shot them at 100 yards round robin style, 5 shot groups. The .055" shot the best at .18", but everything was less than .35". I shot 3 of these on steel at 416 yards, but didn't have anything on hand to measure the group with, measured the knife in the picture and it looks to be just under 3/4" center to center. View attachment 7307303View attachment 7307304

Didn't you get the memo? That group size is statistically inconclusive, you'll need to shoot 40 shots to be able to say for sure.

 

[47guy]

Didn't you get the memo? That group size is statistically inconclusive, you'll need to shoot 40 shots to be able to say for sure.

LMAO!!

 

[Petrov]

or are you to inconsistent for the tool? i have no issues getting consistent measurements...remember its just giving you a starting point there is no perfect way.

Yeah I'm a ham fisted guy. As my grandpa would say to me (in russian) : Your hands are growing out of your ass!

 

[47guy]

Yeah I'm a ham fisted guy. As my grandpa would say to me (in russian) : Your hands are growing out of your ass!

LMAO that’s funny!!

I push firmly but not so hard I’m really jamming the bullet into the lands but I’ll bet I’m actually touching or very close to touching the lands with my measurements.

 

[trob_205]

I have 30 rounds of a test I’m waiting to be able to shoot at 400+ to test with. 6.5CM 140 ELD-M .010-.100. 3 each in .010 increments. I currently shoot .020 off with great results, but I’m definitely interested in playing around with it after reading those articles and listening to Scott Satterlee’s episode on the Modern Day Sniper Podcast!

 

[D loop darrell]

Red tips up are life cycle 5 to 8 brass that's about to start not holding primers. Red tips down ars stupid levels on consistency built. New brass is here but after all this discussion Im gonna wait. **surprised to see everything I typed still here** Left this on read. Barrels change! I went to 2.770 because it was a generous feed. Buttery. But going to 2.75 wouldn't be an issue. Hodgdon should do some tests with more than min load jammed into a rifle barrel. That's why I posted this really. I don't think 90%+ of us needs to be chasing the distance. But when you look it up. 001! I think my 243 is 2.430 just because I'd be able to remember it. I think. It's written down. Out put great retention eh lol

 

[260284]

Didn't you get the memo? That group size is statistically inconclusive, you'll need to shoot 40 shots to be able to say for sure.

I forgot to mention, this was with new Peterson brass that I only chamfered the necks before I loaded it. I usually use .002" neck tension, but this is more like .0015" out of the box.

 

[anti-pattern]

I have found my cm likes to shoot between .07 and .10 off of jam. Just remember that every other projectile you load will have a different distance to ogive. I load 156's at 2.89" COAL and that is barely .1 off the jam. I also ran some Sierra 140's that COAL is 2.77 in order to get the ogive .09 off the jam. As a rookie reloader years ago, I had serious pressure problems not understanding that COAL is useless.

FYI, my measurement to jam (Yes I use jam and work back) is 2.30" so I try seating around 2.20 - 2.17 CBTO. I find it much easier to understand jam (Absolute no-go zone!).

 

[straightshooter1]

I have found my cm likes to shoot between .07 and .10 off of jam. Just remember that every other projectile you load will have a different distance to ogive. I load 156's at 2.89" COAL and that is barely .1 off the jam. I also ran some Sierra 140's that COAL is 2.77 in order to get the ogive .09 off the jam. As a rookie reloader years ago, I had serious pressure problems not understanding that COAL is useless.

Yup, different bullets will have different BTO's, just as their OAL's are different. And because different bullets are in design specs, they're going to like different seating depths for different powders to get into an accuracy node.

I found several different loads that like being .010 off the lands and I used to try keep it there as the throat erodes. That means the seating depth keep getting longer and longer over time and eventually I found I wasn't getting the accuracy as before, apparently having moved out of the accuracy node. As the throat continually erodes, I was "chasing the lands" as Erik Cortina puts it. And as he suggests, I stopped doing that and started loading my cartridges with the same seating depth as the throat eroded where the jump became longer and longer. Though the jump became longer, the accuracy remained much better than when I was "chasing the lands". Keeping the same seating depth is apparently much more important in keeping in an accuracy node than maintaining the same jump to the lands. . . like where my jump for my 168 SMK's was at .010, it is now .032 and I'm still getting bugholes.

FYI, my measurement to jam (Yes I use jam and work back) is 2.30" so I try seating around 2.20 - 2.17 CBTO. I find it much easier to understand jam (Absolute no-go zone!).

My my measurements from from "touch" rather than jam. And as I mentioned back in April, because the throat is always eroding, trying to measure it very accurately I find is wasted effort, unless . . . one is loading the cartridges with no jump so that they either touch or jam a certain amount.

 

[Holliday]

My Berger 168 VLD hunting bullets in 280AI are .090 off the lands. When it was a 30-06 same bullet but 30 cal it was also .090” off.