I have manufactured and sold lots of my own parts over the years. At this point in my life I prefer to not complicate things with adding employees and answering phones.
50 BMG at 2K??
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I have manufactured and sold lots of my own parts over the years. At this point in my life I prefer to not complicate things with adding employees and answering phones.
Well patent it and sell the design or something. No sense keeping it under wraps if you don't want to make money off it lol
Im sure Mark from Australia will be selling some of his bipod setups soon.
Different from mine but close enough
Different from mine but close enough
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I shot my 2 WWII Brit Boys rifles in BMG out to 1850 with iron sights years ago. We could shoot a 6 or 7 foot pattern at that range. A friend was running his converted Boys rifle off a tripod with a nice scope at the same target and shooting 2ft groups consistently. My guess is that with good solid equipment you should be able to get there. The AMAX is a good one to use.
Frank
Frank
I would not want to be standing by the target
24" x 24" target with a 20 mph crosswind was not too shabby
That 4 wheeler didn't quite kill me off, (6 broken ribs and lacerated liver) we will be at this weekend's Southwest ULR shoot, provided they don't cancel due to weather, looking forward to shooting with you guys again....maybe one of these weekends we will make the trek and come shoot the Norcal match with you guys. We miss hurling insults back and forth with Lynn and Hoffer!
Will see you at K02M if we can get in Jeff!
Hey Bill
Everything up here in NorCal burned down in a 300,000 acre fire. We haven't even seen our range yet. Hopefully it's all cleared of brush now.
Had my right kidney pulled out the first week of November and need one more surgery to pull some stones out of my left but I am getting my energy back and plan on doing more shooting and soon.
Hoffer whiteMamba and Focus are all ready to shoot and the government shutdown closed our range again.
It's snowing up there right now.
Tell Kurt I said hello.
Lynn
Everything up here in NorCal burned down in a 300,000 acre fire. We haven't even seen our range yet. Hopefully it's all cleared of brush now.
Had my right kidney pulled out the first week of November and need one more surgery to pull some stones out of my left but I am getting my energy back and plan on doing more shooting and soon.
Hoffer whiteMamba and Focus are all ready to shoot and the government shutdown closed our range again.
It's snowing up there right now.
Tell Kurt I said hello.
Lynn
Damn! Hope you get to feeling better soon! Keep me posted. Maybe when it’s hot as balls here we can make a trip up to bang some steel on your scorched earth range. Hopefully they open it back up for ya soon.
I will flick Kurt in the sack for ya!
Feel better!
Bill
Look forward to it, we will keep our eyes on it when it gets announced. Not sure if we can shoot it though. We no longer have a “qualifier” match down here to get us in.
I have never owned a 50 BMG, but own a 338 LM, and several 30 cal magnums that are set up to shoot long range. You did reference a 338 or 30 cal might be something your interested in and would be more economical to shoot. Honestly, not really. The last time I priced components for the 338, I compared with some 50 BMG and its pretty close cost wise. If you were going to shoot a lot, I would recommend a 300 WM, but if your only taking it out a few times a year, and having fun a 50 would be the way to go just for the "cool" factor alone. I have shot a m62AI, that a buddy had pretty extensively. Very fun, and whallops steel with authority! If you get one, you had better post some pics!!
So to go all the way back to the OP's question. 50 BMGs and wildcats are viable at 2 miles but probably not with Amax. Amax's shoot very well out of 3 groove Pac-Nor barrels at 2650 fps. They don't usually fly well faster or out of 6 or 8 groove barrels and they usually require a great deal of sorting. Skip used to sort by weight then by ogive length and would then spin them to ensure they didn't have cavities. Nobody shoots them in Ko2M and they have mostly vanished from FCSA comp simply because they take too much work vs solids. There is also a major issue with running them much faster as they have a huge bearing surface which leads to higher engraving pressures and lower safe velocities. I've run 742 grain solids at 3000 fps using 253 grains of H50 without issues. They shot better at 2950 though. Try that with amax and it is going to be hammer time to lift the bolt.
As far as the chatter about pushing 50s out of Ko2M by dropping the weight limit. Every FCSA light gun, most Hunter and a good fraction of Heavy guns are well under 40 pounds. There are few 50s in Ko2M because the unfortunate reality is, the powder selection out there doesn't give us well optimized performance with match solids since the powders are all optimized for M33 ball. Couple that to the follow the leader gear selection and we saw a massive shift to 375 after Mitch did well and now we are seeing a shift towards 416 as they are about the biggest that optimal powders are available for though 460 may be in that pocket too.
For clarification, we ended up with the initial 50 pound weight limit based upon FCSA Hunter Class rules after seeing people lug guns out to the line that required two people to carry. Perhaps we should have cut that down to 35 or 40 pounds initially but it is what it is. 40 pounds is where we will stay even though the three of us want to see a push for lighter platforms that are usable in the real world. We are aware of 2 people that had to do rebuilds on their guns when we dropped the limit last year so it did not actually cause widespread issues that some here have mentioned.
While some have suggested different classes we prefer the simplicity of our current system and there will only be one King. We don't want "I was the King in 2019 in the under 25 pounds and over 375 caliber class"... We applaud efforts such as the Tubb Prize for Guns under 25 pounds (won by Bob Faber in 2018) and will support such efforts as they push for what matters to us which is development. Having no limits on weights doesn't drive innovation that is field ready. Look at the super light weight stocks the McMillian and Manners have come out with. What would drive that innovation without limits?
As for the team only comments... It has always been a team event. This doesn't mean you need to be from a corporate team, it just means you need to come with a buddy or two that you have shot with before so you can work effectively. We saw too many people come and form a spotter/shooter pair that have never shot together and the results were slow shooting, terrible communication and rapid elimination. We award all members of the winning teams because the spotters are just as important as the shooter when it comes to getting hits on target.
-Alex
As far as the chatter about pushing 50s out of Ko2M by dropping the weight limit. Every FCSA light gun, most Hunter and a good fraction of Heavy guns are well under 40 pounds. There are few 50s in Ko2M because the unfortunate reality is, the powder selection out there doesn't give us well optimized performance with match solids since the powders are all optimized for M33 ball. Couple that to the follow the leader gear selection and we saw a massive shift to 375 after Mitch did well and now we are seeing a shift towards 416 as they are about the biggest that optimal powders are available for though 460 may be in that pocket too.
For clarification, we ended up with the initial 50 pound weight limit based upon FCSA Hunter Class rules after seeing people lug guns out to the line that required two people to carry. Perhaps we should have cut that down to 35 or 40 pounds initially but it is what it is. 40 pounds is where we will stay even though the three of us want to see a push for lighter platforms that are usable in the real world. We are aware of 2 people that had to do rebuilds on their guns when we dropped the limit last year so it did not actually cause widespread issues that some here have mentioned.
While some have suggested different classes we prefer the simplicity of our current system and there will only be one King. We don't want "I was the King in 2019 in the under 25 pounds and over 375 caliber class"... We applaud efforts such as the Tubb Prize for Guns under 25 pounds (won by Bob Faber in 2018) and will support such efforts as they push for what matters to us which is development. Having no limits on weights doesn't drive innovation that is field ready. Look at the super light weight stocks the McMillian and Manners have come out with. What would drive that innovation without limits?
As for the team only comments... It has always been a team event. This doesn't mean you need to be from a corporate team, it just means you need to come with a buddy or two that you have shot with before so you can work effectively. We saw too many people come and form a spotter/shooter pair that have never shot together and the results were slow shooting, terrible communication and rapid elimination. We award all members of the winning teams because the spotters are just as important as the shooter when it comes to getting hits on target.
-Alex
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.QUOTE="Sandow the Heretic, post: 7509708, member: 115575"]So to go all the way back to the OP's question. 50 BMGs and wildcats are viable at 2 ds miles but probably not with Amax. Amax's shoot very well out of 3 groove Pac-Nor barrels at 2650 fps. They don't usually fly well faster or out of 6 or 8 groove barrels and they usually require a great deal of sorting. Skip used to sort by weight then by ogive length and would then spin them to uolds ensure they didn't have cavities. Nobody shoots them in Ko2M and they have mostly vanished from FCSA comp simply because they take too much work vs solids. There is also a major issue with running them much faster as they have a huge bearing surface which leads to higher engraving pressures and lower safe velocities. I've run 742 grain solids at 3000 fps using 253 grains of H50 without issues. They shot better at 2950 though. Try that with amax and it is going to be hammer time to lift the bolt.
As far as the chatter about pushing 50s out of Ko2M by dropping the weight limit. Every FCSA light gun, most Hunter and a good fraction of Heavy guns are well under 40 pounds. There are few 50s in Ko2M because the unfortunate reality is, the powder selection out there doesn't give us well optimized performance with match solids since the powders are all optimized for M33 ball. Couple that to the follow the leader gear selection and we saw a massive shift to 375 after Mitch did well and now we are seeing a shift towards 416 as they are about the biggest that optimal powders are available for though 460 may be in that pocket too.
For clarification, we ended up with the initial 50 pound weight limit based upon FCSA Hunter Class rules after seeing people lug guns out to the line that required two people to carry. Perhaps we should have cut that down to 35 or 40 pounds initially but it is what it is. 40 pounds is where we will stay even though the three of us want to see a push for lighter platforms that are usable in the real world. We are aware of 2 people that had to do rebuilds on their guns when we dropped the limit last year so it did not actually cause widespread issues that some here have mentioned.
While some have suggested different classes we prefer the simplicity of our current system and there will only be one King. We don't want "I was the King in 2019 in the under 25 pounds and over 375 caliber class"... We applaud efforts such as the Tubb Prize for Guns under 25 pounds (won by Bob Faber in 2018) and will support such efforts as they push for what matters to us which is development. Having no limits on weights doesn't drive innovation that is field ready. Look at the super light weight stocks the McMillian and Manners have come out with. What would drive that innovation without limits?
As for the team only comments... It has always been a team event. This doesn't mean you need to be from a corporate team, it just means you need to come with a buddy or two that you have shot with before so you can work effectively. We saw too many people come and form a spotter/shooter pair that have never shot together and the results were slow shooting, terrible communication and rapid elimination. We award all members of the winning teams because the spotters are just as important as the shooter when it comes to getting hits on target.
-Alex[/QUOTE]
again you talking about k02m rules . the ko2n does not dictate elr there is just as much of movement towards heavy long barrel builds as there is in the light class advancements pertains to shooting faster further with bigger heavier higher bc bullets and that requires heavy builds and long barrels . its simple even at the ko2m heavy big caliber has dominated and will continue . and the light smaller stuff will continue to loose till the sport is restricted so they can win and that's all that remains . SORRY BUD THAT NOT ADVANCEMENTS THATS RESTRICTION what it looks like to me is if you cant win with the light stuff regulate the rules so you can. might as well have a h20 limit as well and I am sure that's been thought of as well
As far as the chatter about pushing 50s out of Ko2M by dropping the weight limit. Every FCSA light gun, most Hunter and a good fraction of Heavy guns are well under 40 pounds. There are few 50s in Ko2M because the unfortunate reality is, the powder selection out there doesn't give us well optimized performance with match solids since the powders are all optimized for M33 ball. Couple that to the follow the leader gear selection and we saw a massive shift to 375 after Mitch did well and now we are seeing a shift towards 416 as they are about the biggest that optimal powders are available for though 460 may be in that pocket too.
For clarification, we ended up with the initial 50 pound weight limit based upon FCSA Hunter Class rules after seeing people lug guns out to the line that required two people to carry. Perhaps we should have cut that down to 35 or 40 pounds initially but it is what it is. 40 pounds is where we will stay even though the three of us want to see a push for lighter platforms that are usable in the real world. We are aware of 2 people that had to do rebuilds on their guns when we dropped the limit last year so it did not actually cause widespread issues that some here have mentioned.
While some have suggested different classes we prefer the simplicity of our current system and there will only be one King. We don't want "I was the King in 2019 in the under 25 pounds and over 375 caliber class"... We applaud efforts such as the Tubb Prize for Guns under 25 pounds (won by Bob Faber in 2018) and will support such efforts as they push for what matters to us which is development. Having no limits on weights doesn't drive innovation that is field ready. Look at the super light weight stocks the McMillian and Manners have come out with. What would drive that innovation without limits?
As for the team only comments... It has always been a team event. This doesn't mean you need to be from a corporate team, it just means you need to come with a buddy or two that you have shot with before so you can work effectively. We saw too many people come and form a spotter/shooter pair that have never shot together and the results were slow shooting, terrible communication and rapid elimination. We award all members of the winning teams because the spotters are just as important as the shooter when it comes to getting hits on target.
-Alex[/QUOTE]
again you talking about k02m rules . the ko2n does not dictate elr there is just as much of movement towards heavy long barrel builds as there is in the light class advancements pertains to shooting faster further with bigger heavier higher bc bullets and that requires heavy builds and long barrels . its simple even at the ko2m heavy big caliber has dominated and will continue . and the light smaller stuff will continue to loose till the sport is restricted so they can win and that's all that remains . SORRY BUD THAT NOT ADVANCEMENTS THATS RESTRICTION what it looks like to me is if you cant win with the light stuff regulate the rules so you can. might as well have a h20 limit as well and I am sure that's been thought of as well
We have never pretended to dictate the structure of ELR matches to anyone else unlike some others. I was merely addressing questions and commentary about our match in the thread in which they were raised.
Again, we don't care what people build and shoot for other events. However the reality is, like our limits or not, they will influence what people focus their builds on. Despite your statement, half of our top ten last year were under 35 pounds. With the Tubb prize, I expect to see a lot more people there under 25 pounds.
As far as restricting it so" light smaller stuff" wins... You understand that we essentially didn't let guns under 375 in last year right? This year we will only let 338 shooters in that have proven themselves at 2000 yards and beyond in matches because we have seen from previous years that they are essentially hopeless beyond about those ranges.
In the end, there really just isn't any reason that these guns need to weigh a ton. I've shot suppressed 22 pound 50s in competition off a bipod and while the recoil was stout with that terrible suppressor, it was certainly manageable for the handful of shots you would take in a real world engagement. When you get down to the little calibers that are currently dominating like 375 and 416, a 25 pound gun is a kitten to shoot and if you can't be stable with a gun that weighs that much you seriously need to work on your positioning and other shooting fundamentals.
I don't think I'm alone here... What???
But hey, if you want to build an towed gun to shoot ELR because that is where you think innovation will take place, be my guest.
-Alex
Again, we don't care what people build and shoot for other events. However the reality is, like our limits or not, they will influence what people focus their builds on. Despite your statement, half of our top ten last year were under 35 pounds. With the Tubb prize, I expect to see a lot more people there under 25 pounds.
As far as restricting it so" light smaller stuff" wins... You understand that we essentially didn't let guns under 375 in last year right? This year we will only let 338 shooters in that have proven themselves at 2000 yards and beyond in matches because we have seen from previous years that they are essentially hopeless beyond about those ranges.
In the end, there really just isn't any reason that these guns need to weigh a ton. I've shot suppressed 22 pound 50s in competition off a bipod and while the recoil was stout with that terrible suppressor, it was certainly manageable for the handful of shots you would take in a real world engagement. When you get down to the little calibers that are currently dominating like 375 and 416, a 25 pound gun is a kitten to shoot and if you can't be stable with a gun that weighs that much you seriously need to work on your positioning and other shooting fundamentals.
I don't think I'm alone here... What???
But hey, if you want to build an towed gun to shoot ELR because that is where you think innovation will take place, be my guest.
-Alex
Sandow
The H2O comment I'm guessing is a brass volume limit?
Was the KO2M well supported with the FCSA?
I wasn't a member when it all started but I was in the past and am now and they don't seem to like anything other than the straight 50.
The H2O comment I'm guessing is a brass volume limit?
Was the KO2M well supported with the FCSA?
I wasn't a member when it all started but I was in the past and am now and they don't seem to like anything other than the straight 50.
Ko2M was started with Eddie as the FCSA president and me on the BOD. We had some resistance at first but have been embraced by most members. The FCSA has rule changes under review to start sanctioning other ELR events and do record keeping. Getting membership to vote on it is actually a formality since our rules say the national match director can sanction matches at his discretion but we think it is best to let members decide what direction the organization goes.
-Alex
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