50 cal accuracy issues

[Graham]

50 cal accuracy issues

I've sat down and shot some steel, then my wife come behind me and aim at the same hole and put a shot nearly in the same hole. This was with surplus pulled API's. I let others that have never shot my 50 BMG before shoot it and they hit where they aim with these API's. But that's not supposed to happen, right?

No, that is exactly what is supposed to happen. That is precisely the problem I have been describing: The less you know how to shoot a light rifle the better a .50 like that will shoot for you.

The issue is that it requires different technique. Because of that, and for other reasons, unless you you have a specific purpose for it in mind or need to compete with it against other .50s, they can be a monumental waste of time and money just for the sake of owning a big caliber.

And even then, by comparison they shoot like shit.

 

[JohnC76]

No, that is exactly what is supposed to happen. That is precisely the problem I have been describing: The less you know how to shoot a light rifle the better a .50 like that will shoot for you. The issue is that it requires different technique. Because of that, and for other reasons, unless you you have a specific purpose for it in mind or need to compete with it against other .50s, they can be a monumental waste of time and money just for the sake of owning a big caliber.

BS I shoot light rifles all day and go back to a 50 and still hit. This is a ridiculous uneducated argument you're making. It's nearly not even worth replying to such ignorance. But I just can't sit by and let this level of misinformation spread all over the web. Now about cost... My 50 BMG is cheaper to shoot than a 338 Lapua mag at $2.25 a shot shipped to my door and API's at that. Even new Lake City Ball ammo is cheaper than Lapua. The rifle cost me under $3K shipped to my FFL new. I see a lot of guys here with guns that cost 2 and 3 times what I paid and ammo that costs more, too. So cost is out of the window here for the argument. Trust me, I considered a lapua even before the 50 and I can't even justify the cost of that myself. Aside from that, this is a hobby and judging by all the high rollers here with sometimes $10K+ in a rifle with scope, I can't see why cost is even an issue. We all buy what we can afford, Nuff said on that issue. A monumental waste? You're a joker. I think you're just stirring the pot or making strawman arguments. If that's true, anyone shooting a caliber weapon that has more power and range than they need is a complete waste. Stupid arguments.

 

[Graham]

50 cal accuracy issues

BS I shoot light rifles all day and go back to a 50 and still hit. This is a ridiculous uneducated argument you're making. It's nearly not even worth replying to such ignorance. But I just can't sit by and let this level of misinformation spread all over the web.... A monumental waste? You're a joker. I think you're just stirring the pot or making strawman arguments. If that's true, anyone shooting a caliber weapon that has more power and range than they need is a complete waste. Stupid arguments.

You don't have to agree with me, but calling it BS and an 'uneducated argument' betrays your lack of knowledge and experience with the larger caliber.

Owning a piano doesn't make you a virtuoso pianist.

 

[JohnC76]

You don't have to agree with me, but calling it BS and an 'uneducated argument' betrays your lack of knowledge and experience with the larger caliber.

Owning a piano doesn't make you a virtuoso pianist.

That argument is ridiculous, too. Of course if you buy a piano, it doesn't make you a virtuoso pianist just because you own it. Much like the 50 BMG, unless flawed ammo, bad scope, or the rifle is somehow a bad copy from the factory, it is capable of good accuracy. If I have a rookie who'd never shot a 50 come up and shoot my rifle, I have it dialed in and tell them to aim at the target, they hit it where they aim. It's simple. If you miss, you suck, not the gun. But I've not seen ay of the rookies so far suck with my 50 BMG. It is not like some claim in here that the 50 is a waste of time and money as if accuracy is really bad. From my experience, accuracy is really good, especially when you take in to account I'm using pulled milsurp API's reloaded by some dude out west that has no e-rep as being the god of reloading.

 

[Graham]

50 cal accuracy issues

If I have a rookie who'd never shot a 50 come up and shoot my rifle, I have it dialed in and tell them to aim at the target, they hit it where they aim. It's simple. If you miss, you suck, not the gun. But I've not seen ay of the rookies so far suck with my 50 BMG...

With your illustrations you continue to support what I said about the .50, while at the same time calling it 'ridiculous' BS. Now you are simply arguing against yourself.

BTW, 'really good' is not an accuracy standard.

 

[JohnC76]

With your illustrations you continue to support what I said about the .50, while at the same time calling it 'ridiculous' BS. Now you are simply arguing against yourself.

BTW, 'really good' is not an accuracy standard.

You only see what you want to see. I can't help your blind stubbornness and being stuck on your own assumptions.

No, that is exactly what is supposed to happen. That is precisely the problem I have been describing: The less you know how to shoot a light rifle the better a .50 like that will shoot for you.

The issue is that it requires different technique. Because of that, and for other reasons, unless you you have a specific purpose for it in mind or need to compete with it against other .50s, they can be a monumental waste of time and money just for the sake of owning a big caliber.

And even then, by comparison they shoot like shit.

So the less you know the better? The rifle only shoots good for the rookies? BS! Again, you speak from ignorance. Saying the gun is shit and a total waste, and saying they suck in the hands of an experienced shooters is complete BS. If you are some awesome marksman and you can't hit something with my 50 and I can, it is not he gun nor the caliber, it is you suck as an individual with the 50.

So many people with no experience on .50s. So many people giving advice as if a .50 is a light rifle. So many people without a clue as to what makes a .50 different... And many of them owning one.

Forget about scope mount tightness, muzzle brakes and ammo.

OP, you're muscling the rifle. Dollars to donuts the spread is horizontal.

And to expand on Lowlight's point: If you don't know how to shoot a rifle, sell the .50 and learn. If you do know how to shoot a rifle, then get rid of the .50 because it will only respond poorly to proper application of the fundamentals.

Again, not true and total BS. I shoot all sorts of rifles properly and my 50 shoots great for me.

Are you speaking from experience? Because you' ve got it backwards: A lack of technique will save the day on the .50. I'll take a new shooter over an experienced shooter on one any day. That's the problem.

BS. This make me LOL it's so ignorant.

.50s respond well to a lack of proper technique.

50's will respond well to a lack of proper technique? BS. Again. I'm an expirenced 50 cal shooter. With all my "technique and skill" I should suck, or the rifle should suck in my hands. SORRY FALSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Harvey]

And...this thread is done.

Not so fast.

Question for the experts, and I know the gents on Sniper's Hide will have the answer:

I understand that accuracy/precision of a firearm is maximized if the overall cartridge length is set so that the bullet just engages the lands of the rifling. The specified overall length of a generic 50 BMG is 5.450 inches. The head spacing of a cartridge case in my boomer is perfect, but I have determined that a Hornady A-MAX 750gr will just engage the rifling if the OL is at 5.750 inches. If set to the specified length, the cartridge/case headspace is still perfect, but the Hornady bullet will be uncontrolled for 0.3 inch before actually engaging the rifling, hampering (I fear) the potential precision of the firearm.

All this understanding that reloading the fifty is a grave responsibility, but also acknowledging every firearm likes to eat a particular weight of bullet, orientated just so on the fork.

So, do I dare increase the overall length to 5.750?

OK, experts, what's the answer? I selfishly wish to not blow myself up sans your advice.

 

[Graham]

50 cal accuracy issues

JohnC76,

Put the keyboard down and step away from Mom's basement, there's nothing left to see down there.

I am sure that you are a very experienced .50 cal shooter and a top expert marksman, in fact your hands alone should probably be registered as deadly weapons, but we don't need to know all that: This thread isn't about you or me.

For those here who care about the topic more than about ego, below is but one single reason why new shooters so often have a much easier time adjusting to the .50:

Unlike a light rifle, a heavy rifle requires either complete dedication to follow-through, or no influence at all after the shot breaks. This means the .50 responds well to disengaging from the gun. And disengaging is bad technique.

If you have been taught to muscle a rifle for multiple engagements, as one may be required to do when nephew and wifey are not at the sportsman's club range admiring your prowess, when you do that with a .50 you are working against the effectiveness of the muzzle brake.

A .50 has .5" x 27" of air column in the bore. When that column of air leaves the bore the rifle is pulled in the direction of any shooter tension. And that will happen before the bullet leaves the bore. This will cause an unusual amount of horizontal spread and can result in an inability to zero. The shooter must be absolutely neutral behind the rifle.

Correcting that problem is what I originally suggested to the OP.

Harvey,

I answered your question in the other thread.

 

[10micmic]

Im not even sure if a 50 is stable at 100 yards.i have trouble with my 300 win mag at 100 yards with 240 grains but 150 and out it beautiful 500 yards i can put 2 out of 3 rounds on a golf ball

 

[Graham]

Im not even sure if a 50 is stable at 100 yards.i have trouble with my 300 win mag at 100 yards with 240 grains but 150 and out it beautiful 500 yards i can put 2 out of 3 rounds on a golf ball

Unstable (supersonic) bullets don't become stable. Either a bullet is stable when it leaves the muzzle, or it isn't.

 

[10micmic]

Your incorrect the bullet yalls as it leaves the barrel till its stable then starts to yall again as it slow way down.and thanks for your 2 cents anyway

 

[The_FNG]

Your incorrect the bullet yalls as it leaves the barrel till its stable then starts to yall again as it slow way down.and thanks for your 2 cents anyway

You mean it says...bye y'alls as it leaves the barrel?

 

[10micmic]

Lol that would be funny but sadly not the case

 

[Lowlight]

Bullets stabilize about 20 bullet lengths from the end of the barrel, as close to immediately as you can get. An unstable bullet at 100 yards is unstable everywhere else, it cannot change course.

It's the shooter that causes accuracy issues at 100 and better accuracy at distance. It's a mental thing, the large caliber recoil makes them think they are all over the place close because the sight picture moves more. At distance the picture appears less erratic.

 

[Graham]

50 cal accuracy issues

Your incorrect the bullet yalls as it leaves the barrel till its stable then starts to yall again as it slow way down.and thanks for your 2 cents anyway

Y'all are kidding me, right? Stability and yaw are not the same thing. Listen to Frank.

 

[10micmic]

No crap the bullet will over come yaw and stablize

 

[10micmic]

Stabilize................

 

[Graham]

No crap the bullet will over come yaw and stablize

No good bullet will either. Because that's not how it works.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[Lowlight]

Try shooting your 100 yard yawing bullet through rice paper at 100 and then into a target at 300 yards, you'll be surprised.

It's a dumb projectile, there is no pilot inside correcting the flight. Bad is bad... it's an internet myth that unstable bullets at 100 will work further out.

Because of the spin there is always a slight angle, but it's tiny, like really tiny, exaggerating it to make excuses for shit shooting sounds great but are far from reality.

 

[Harvey]

Harvey,

I answered your question in the other thread.

I don't recall you answering my question. I do recall a lecture on 50BMG responsibility, which I may or may not need, but not an answer on pushing the COAL until the bullet meets the lands. I pretty much know the answer but thought I'd hear from the old hands on Sniper's Hide.

As I understand it, loading to Max COAL places the bullet right up against the lands, where a number of shooters insist it belongs to achieve maximum precision. It will also spike the pressure relative to a shorter OAL, so one should back off the powder charge and work back up when seating against the lands. In the opinion of a guy with 23,000 posts, do I have that right?




I really thought I'd like Sniper's Hide. But is everybody here so condescending?

 

[Graham]

50 cal accuracy issues

I really thought I'd like Sniper's Hide. But is everybody here so condescending?

No.

Most new people don't state the obvious, criticize the people from whom they are asking it and then insist on being given advice anyway. Many of them are not quite that condescending.

 

[Harvey]

No.

Most new people don't state the obvious, criticize the people from whom they are asking it and then insist on being given advice anyway. Many of them are not quite that condescending.

OK. Let me try again. In your opinion, Graham, would you feel comfortable pushing the COLA of a 50BMG to 5.850"? Everything else is per spec, and this round would be placed in a firearm built by Klaus Horstkamp, so the relative precision and gravitas of the original build is fairly certain.

Thanks for your help.

 

[10micmic]

If your concentricity is off it enters the lans at an angle and leaves at an angle and stops yaw during flight

 

[Lowlight]

Immediately, within 20 bullet lengths... just a few feet. No a 100 yard plus.

How the hell do you think people can zero at 25 & 50 yards.

 

[Graham]

50 cal accuracy issues

OK. Let me try again. In your opinion, Graham, would you feel comfortable pushing the COLA of a 50BMG to 5.850"? This would be placed in a firearm built by Klaus Horstkamp, so the relative precision and gravitas of the original build is fairly certain.

Thanks for your help.

It depends on the throat. Like I said, you've absolutely got to measure it before you can come up with an accurate BTO. Forget COAL.

 

[10micmic]

The military did tons of testing on bullet yaw dont take my word read it for yourself

 

[Graham]

50 cal accuracy issues

The military did tons of testing on bullet yaw dont take my word read it for yourself

Consider giving up while you are behind. I don't think you are going to educate Frank on military testing.

 

[Lowlight]

The military did tons of testing on bullet yaw dont take my word read it for yourself

You're exaggerating it in your mind, and your reading comprehension needs work. It's tiny, and not as destabilizing as you think.

Try shooting instead of reading.

 

[10micmic]

Who zeros there 50 bmg at 25 or 50 yard thats stupid its pointless at 100 yards and that close will work on your 223 308 but the 50 might not like it

 

[Graham]

50 cal accuracy issues

10micmic,

Maybe ask him the questions you have rather than chastising him. You might find that he is quite knowledgeable on the subject. Heaven forbid that you learn something.

 

[10micmic]

So your tell in me concentricity has no effect on a bullet

 

[10micmic]

Lol i dont mind learning someting but what he is preaching isnt right buts its ok it seem ive rubbed u and your buddy wrong so ill leave it be

 

[Lowlight]

He knows better... everyone that uses a .50 has access to long ranges. The military never uses a 1000 inch range for zeroing, or guys on float would never zero on the back of a ship right. We were only the first unit in the USMC to use a .50, so I have no clue.

He wins, concentricity matters in any rifle, but the bullet is stabilized quickly, not hundreds of yards later.

You hear this same BS about other calibers not just .50s... it's a common line of thinking because someone read somewhere. The whole "bullets go to sleep" shit.

 

[mlh29]

I find this rather amusing, for years the Military has zeroed M2 at 10 meters for a scaled/ calibrated zero. In all the years or running or shooting the various ranges I will agree with the stability issue. It is stable as soon as it leaves the crown...
Second
I have witnessed and or shot multiple 50 cal rifles, I own a Barrett 82a1 and have since 1998. When I first had it I had people wanting to shoot it all the time, I said you pay for ammo and you can pull the trigger as much as you want.
I have seen much better shots( a few competive BR shooters, and 1 Presidents 100 Member) than I get pissed when they could not shoot the rifle the way they had hoped. When I went through classes on the m107 we were encouraged to do a brain dump, read wind and calibrate for hold, and told to allow the rifle to almost free recoil, including a open v grip of thumb and index finger on the pistol grip. . Instructed to let the rifle recoil naturally and reposition when it jumps versus holding attempting to hold it in place. Groups/ hits greatly improved for the whole class

In my 82a1 it only likes the 750 amax, is finicky,,, If I had to make a long range shot for multiple rounds on target I would be picing something else.. Unless I was using the M2 mounted in a CROWS.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Your incorrect the bullet yalls as it leaves the barrel till its stable then starts to yall again as it slow way down.and thanks for your 2 cents anyway

You're talking about two different things. Yaw and stability. I love it when people always say that a bullet stabilizes after "x" feet. Either is leaves the barrel stable and stays that way or it leaves unstable and stays that way. Anyone who has any bit of trigger time on a .50 knows that it's not a precision instrument. If you want precision stick with a .308.

I'm not sure who said that it's easier for a beginner to shoot a .50 than a seasoned shooter but that is almost dead on IMO.

 

[Harvey]

It depends on the throat. Like I said, you've absolutely got to measure it before you can come up with an accurate BTO. Forget COAL.

Graham, kindly tell me more about "throat". The maximum trim-to length has been measured using Uncle Al's Poor Man's gauge, and the maximum OAL measured with a Stoney Point OAL gauge. The risk of exceeding pressures due to temporary case stretch is nil using case length of 3.950" (gap >.0.002"). The Horstkamp chamber accepts re-sized once-fired brass without turning the neck. I'm OK using LE Lee case trimmers and neck reamers. And I'm not good enough to worry about concentricity runout of the cases and/or bullets. I typically use banded bullets to further minimize risk of over-pressures. What else do I need to measure?

My simple question, again in your opinion, is it OK (and just as much, is it worth it) to seat the bullet in near-contact (in my case, 5.850" OAL) with the rifling lands?

 

[Harvey]

I'm not sure who said that it's easier for a beginner to shoot a .50 than a seasoned shooter but that is almost dead on IMO.

Agreed, this is likely true in the majority of cases. Because as Graham pointed out, unless it's the softest of buffered semi-autos, trying to "control" the thing like a light-rifle pro is pointless (well, it's true until the flinch thing sets in with the beginner).

 

[Graham]

50 cal accuracy issues

It's not the rifle action, it's the action of the muzzle brake. Semis react well to digging in the bi pod and shooting them almost free recoil. That's why I am advocate of cans on a .50 - the brake doesn't mess up the shot.

That, and if you've ever tried to reduce the signature of a .50 with a brake, a can is a godsend.

As to your rifle, with your loads, I don't know and can't really say from here how far from the lands the bullet should be. That's your job. AMAXs jump well. Even the big ones. No need to stick them.

 

[timelinex]

Lol i dont mind learning someting but what he is preaching isnt right buts its ok it seem ive rubbed u and your buddy wrong so ill leave it be

Your wrong and you just keep trying to hide behind the military. Look up yaw and Bryan litz. Or even better, go read Bryan litz book and you will know more than 99% of the shooters out there.

Bullets are either stable or not when they come out the barrel. As for yaw, every bullet has yaw and it subsides within a few feet of the barrel. Not only that, but the yaw is very small.

Graham, kindly tell me more about "throat". The maximum trim-to length has been measured using Uncle Al's Poor Man's gauge, and the maximum OAL measured with a Stoney Point OAL gauge. The risk of exceeding pressures due to temporary case stretch is nil using case length of 3.950" (gap >.0.002"). The Horstkamp chamber accepts re-sized once-fired brass without turning the neck. I'm OK using LE Lee case trimmers and neck reamers. And I'm not good enough to worry about concentricity runout of the cases and/or bullets. I typically use banded bullets to further minimize risk of over-pressures. What else do I need to measure?

My simple question, again in your opinion, is it OK (and just as much, is it worth it) to seat the bullet in near-contact (in my case, 5.850" OAL) with the rifling lands?

What are you worried about here. From my understanding, you have measured the distance to the lands but you are not 100% sure if you are correct, so you are asking if that's OK and whether the rifle will blow up or misbehave because of this.

Well put your fears to rest. Make sure to drop the charge a little bit because seating into the lands doss raise pressure. However don't be worried about making it too long. Your bullet will not move your barrel when you close the bolt. Even if you seat it way to long, the worst that will happen is that the barrel and bolt become a makeshift seater. The bullet will be scooted back I to the case and become just slightly longer than what your real distance to the lands is. So there is absolutely nothing to worry about safety wise, however this can however effect accuracy.