550 yard ladder test confusion

[VDVSNIPER]

Hello, I have just shot 16 rounds at .5 powder difference at 550 yards just like TresMon had written in the article on hand loading, please let me know what you are seeing from my target, or what I should be seeing. I am a not seeing a cluster or group of any kind. Any help would be appreciated, thank you.

specs: 338 win, 225gr sst, 4831sc, 550 yards

 

[Sheldon N]

72-73gr looks like it holds the smallest vertical, ignore the left/right deviation since that's just wind. I'd try loading some rounds at 72.2, 72.5 and 72.8 and see how they group at 100 yards and what kind of SD you get.

You could also explore a little lower too, the low 70's all are right in the same area as well.

 

[VDVSNIPER]

Sheldon, thank you for your input. So when I make the 72.2, 72.5 and 72.8, is that just one of each and I shoot at 100 yards at the same target, or is that in a group of 3-5 rounds each for each powder weight at different targets? Also I do not have a chronograph so I will not know my speeds to determine a SD.

 

[Cranedaddy]

72-73gr looks like it holds the smallest vertical, ignore the left/right deviation since that's just wind. I'd try loading some rounds at 72.2, 72.5 and 72.8 and see how they group at 100 yards and what kind of SD you get.

You could also explore a little lower too, the low 70's all are right in the same area as well.

X2

 

[Cranedaddy]

Sheldon, thank you for your input. So when I make the 72.2, 72.5 and 72.8, is that just one of each and I shoot at 100 yards at the same target, or is that in a group of 3-5 rounds each for each powder weight at different targets? Also I do not have a chronograph so I will not know my speeds to determine a SD.

Shoot for groups in that powder charge

 

[VDVSNIPER]

Awesome. Will load some up tonight and give it a try tomorrow morning. Will post pics of targets tomorrow and see what you experts advise on next. Thank you to both Sheldon and Cranedaddy for your advice. If anyone else has a few more info or advice I am listening.

 

[steve123]

Between 71.5 and 72 is your low node IMO.

 

[VDVSNIPER]

Between 71.5 and 72 is your low node IMO.

Do I have a high node? At 75.5 I was already compressing the powder in the case, I don't think I can go any higher then 77. Yet even at 77 I had no pressure signs. Maybe my high node is past 77?

 

[jfields]

I don't believe I would spend any more time above 73 grains from the looks of that target. I think you are on the right track... do a true OCW from 70.5-72.5.

 

[VDVSNIPER]

Ok guys I loaded up 4 rounds of each powder range by .3 differences, this is what I got.

 

[Sheldon N]

Ouch, none of those look good and some look very, very bad. With that kind of dispersion it makes me question whether the ladder test was able to reveal anything at all. The random group dispersion could easily overcome the vertical component you're trying to reveal in a ladder test.

Some more basic questions, no offense intended. Are you a shooter who is capable of small groups on a regular basis? Can you go to the range with a known good rifle and shoot several 5 shot groups in a row that are under 3/4"? Is this gun a known performer? Has it shot other ammo or load with good result, ie regular groups under 1"?

 

[VDVSNIPER]

Sheldon when I saw the groups I have made I thought to myself that I just need to put the gun away, very disappointed in the groups. Only issue I could think of is that with each round I had to push down the bolt with force just to close it, seemed as if maybe I was jamming the bullet in. Last night when I did case prep and when I was finished all the empty cases chambered well with a smooth bolt close, so I don't even know. This reloading stuff is much more harder then I thought.

 

[VDVSNIPER]

No offense taken, I am here to learn, so any tips or questions will help me. I am not the best shooter, but I am trying to learn the best I can with what I have (very small pockets) here are some pics of the same gun shooting nosler accubonds last year, used different bullets and different powder.

 

[spife7980]

Edit as that post appeared when I was typing this: might try to explore powder charges lower than the 72 grains if it was shooting that much better lower. What made you decide to up the charge so much this round?

This reloading stuff is much more harder then I thought.

It can be but if we break it down measuring carefully/constantly and only change one thing at a time it is much more manageable.

What are you loading on/with?
What is the measurement of your fired necks diameter vs your resized necks vs your loaded round?
What is the measurement of your case base to shoulder measurement from new to fired to resized if avaliable. if no new brass then just the fired and how much shorter they get after sizing? You should be using a tool such as this to get them and should only be pushing them back .002 or so. Any more is way over sizing but wouldnt necessarily make groups bad as factory will expand way more usually and can still be accurate. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","height":"415","width":"415","src":"https:\/\/www.grafs.com\/uploads\/product-picture\/preview\/7288.jpg"}[/IMG2]



​

What is the measurement of your case base to ogive (where the bullet actually meets the lands)? Using the same tool as above but with the bushing for the bullet instead of the case. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/www.brownells.com\/UserDocs\/Miscellaneous\/wb1208-Gauging15.jpg"}[/IMG2]




Your bolt closing tough on new reloads when empty brass fit before is that your necks of a loaded round are too wide (doubtful), your headspace isnt bumped back enough (again doubtful) or that you have the bullet too long and are jamming it into the lands on chambering.

I like this method to find out just how far my lands are so I know how much I am jamming the bullet in or how far I am jumping to them.

 

[padom]

I would say those rounds are probably loaded too long. Get yourself the following tools and it will make reloading much less painfull

1. Hornady Overall Length Gauge (To Find the distance to the lands for each bullet)
2. You will also need a modified case for each calieber you want to reload for
3. Hornady Bullet Comparator (To measure how far you seated your bullets in the case from the base of the case to the bullet ogive)
4. Hornady Headspace Gauage (to measure your fired case headspace and be able to measure how far your bumping shoulders back. .001-.003 for bolt gun is recommended)


Without these few cheap tools and knowing how to use them you will be running into all kinds of issues. You should be doing the following:

 

[VDVSNIPER]

Ok Spife7980 let me try to answear the best I can:

- loading on a RCBS with RCBS FL dies.
- fired case is 2.121 and my sized case is 2.120
- fired neck is .369 and sized neck is .359 and loaded case neck with bullet is .362
- bullet ogive is 2.724 touching the lands, I have it loaded up as 2.758 (.010 off the lands)

 

[Sheldon N]

One possibility is simply that the gun doesn't like that bullet or bullet/powder combo. If I got results like that on load development then I would simply scratch that bullet off the list and not spend more time/money trying to make it shoot. Just sell the bullets and move on to something else.

Since all your measurements seem in line, the only thing I'd investigate is why the loads were hard to chamber when you had previously checked the distance from ogive to lands. I'd double check the distance and seating depth, and also check concentricity since it's possible the neck of the case is crooked and you've got a bullet rubbing against the side of the throat as you chamber.

 

[spife7980]

bullet ogive is 2.724 touching the lands, I have it loaded up as 2.758 (.010 off the lands)

2.724-2.758=-.034

Thats jammed into the lands .034" and not .01" short of the lands. Thats why youre chambering is tough unless your numbers are wrong.

 

[VDVSNIPER]

Sheldon I just double checked all my numbers and my load book I have started to make and I used the ogive off the 225 nosler accubonds instead of the 225sst!!! The bullets where to be seated at 2.714 from the lands of 2.724 for the sst vs the nosler at 2.758!!!! Ugh stupid mistake, (maybe dangerous mistake) I would of never caught it if all my helpers where not telling me to double check my numbers on why the bolt wouldn't close smooth. Thank you so much Sheldon, Padom, and Spife7980!!!! Looks like I will have to do this testing one more time with the RIGHT seating depth this time of .010 off the lands vs almost .040 into the lands.

 

[steve123]

Do I have a high node? At 75.5 I was already compressing the powder in the case, I don't think I can go any higher then 77. Yet even at 77 I had no pressure signs. Maybe my high node is past 77?

Just going by the vertical and how high the heaviest charge was. Bolt getting sticky means you're way over max pressure - Ejector smear present and your slightly over max - Flat primers at max. Could be you muffed a shot and it skewed results???

Those previous last year groups you posted were fine???

 

[VDVSNIPER]

2.724-2.758=-.034

Thats jammed into the lands .034" and not .01" short of the lands. Thats why youre chambering is tough unless your numbers are wrong.

Yep numbers are right, I was jamming it, I saved one round to take home with me (as noticed in the picture of the 5 plates, one of the plates only had 3 holes since the 4th I kept due to the huge spread. Seems like we saw the same error and posted at the same time

 

[padom]

2.724-2.758=-.034

Thats jammed into the lands .034" and not .01" short of the lands. Thats why youre chambering is tough unless your numbers are wrong.

Exactly as I suspected. Let us know your results.

 

[VDVSNIPER]

Just going by the vertical and how high the heaviest charge was. Bolt getting sticky means you're way over max pressure - Ejector smear present and your slightly over max - Flat primers at max. Could be you muffed a shot and it skewed results???

Those previous last year groups you posted were fine???

May 77 of powder my bolt lift was as easy as the 70. My primer was starting to flatten at 77 vs 70. The only problem of going past 77 is that the powder was already at the neck of the case with not much room left.

the last years groups were very good for me, again I am no expert shooter and if i was getting 3/4" or less of groups I was happy and kept shooting. Only reason I am trying the sst over the accubonds is price, cost 1/2 as much, and if the gun can shoot them why not, that's more money saved for more bullets to shoot

Also Steve124 is there anything wrong with the groups I got last year? What group would of you chose to perfect even more? Any help would help me out. Thank you

 

[VDVSNIPER]

Exactly as I suspected. Let us know your results.

Yes sir! I won't be able to in the next few days, but when I have a morning off from work I will hit the range again and do the same test over again, will keep you guys posted! Thanks again for all the help

 

[steve123]

Just going by the vertical and how high the heaviest charge was. Bolt getting sticky means you're way over max pressure - Ejector smear present and your slightly over max - Flat primers at max. Could be you muffed a shot and it skewed results???

Those previous last year groups you posted were fine???

I'd be happy with the 67.5 gr with three 1/2ish groups in a row for a stock rifle.

Start over with the ogive of the new bullets set the same as your old load and things should work out better.

 

[VDVSNIPER]

I'd be happy with the 67.5 gr with three 1/2ish groups in a row for a stock rifle.

Start over with the ogive of the new bullets set the same as your old load and things should work out better.

I was was quite happy with the 67.5gr load, I was testing the seating depth during those testing and the seating depth didn't change too much for accuracy, so a week later I redid them all and chose the most consistint seating depth from the two trips and called it good. Only reason I am trying a new load with a different powder is that my original H4350 is almost gone and none to be found so I bought 8lb of the H4831sc to play with. Also when at the store, they had .338 225gr sst on sale so I grabbed a few boxes. And now that I have some time I decided to find a new load for the rifle.

I took some of my old loads from last year out and noticed that the grouping is not the same after adding on a muzzle brake, my groups are not in the 1/2ish groups but more over a inch now, I may have to play with the load a little and see if I can get it back down around 1/2" for when more h4350 comes available. Should I start with a smaller or larger powder charge like .5 or a full 1gr, or should I start playing with the seating depth first?

 

[VDVSNIPER]

Ok I finially got the chance to head out to the range with the 5 powder loads loaded to the correct seating depth this time. I am not pleased with the results with this hornady 225sst and H4831sc combo. But here are the pics. Any group worth pursuing to try out seating depths?

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Any chance the flyer at 72.8 is you and not the load? I'd try again around that weight.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[VDVSNIPER]

Any chance the flyer at 72.8 is you and not the load? I'd try again around that weight.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

that "flyer" was my first shot of that load, and I know I pulled that shot since I wasn't even preloading the rifle when the rifle went off, so it more then was me.

 

[exhogflyer]

Load 72.5 grains and leave it alone

 

[jsthntn247]

What the hell couldn't you kill with a 225 Accubond that made you want to change in the first place? The way it shot with them I wouldn't change a thing.

 

[VDVSNIPER]

What the hell couldn't you kill with a 225 Accubond that made you want to change in the first place? The way it shot with them I wouldn't change a thing.

Lol, I wanted a cheaper bullet to shoot, the SST's are almost 2x cheaper then the accubonds, just being cheap