6.5 4s/PRC vs 300wm for PRS ELR

[dgheriani]

I've been interested in the extended range PRS match in Wyoming since I first heard about it and now that there will be one in Washington this year as well (it's much closer to me, I'm up in BC, Canada and shoot lotsa matches in WA) I really want to jump in. I've been trying to determine which caliber makes the most sense to get into this with. I currently have 2 Rem 700 SA (one in .308 with a 26" Benchmark and another currently getting a 6mm Creed 26" HH and a 26".223 barrel spun up) both with pinned lugs so as to be switch barrels. The most cost effective way I figure, is with a new barrel in 6.5 chambered in either PRC or Saum 4S and a new bolt. The other option is a Rem 700 LA in 300wm. The advantage of the short action calibers is obviously a lower cost to "get in" whereas the long action gives me a receiver that I could eventually put a Lapua Magnum bolt in later on and shoot something like 30-338lm.

I've been comparing the ballistics of the 6.5 shooting 147 eldms at 3000 vs the 300 pushing 230 berger hybrid otms at 2900 (planning on a 28" barrel for either caliber) and other than the 300wm having much more kinetic energy (which I guess would help with spotting hits/misses), it's pretty much a wash. Are my numbers sensible looking or am I out to lunch?

 

[Ledzep]

300 will have more energy, but likely more drop. With the long barrel, 3100-3150 might be more in the realm for the 6.5. my 28" gap 4s can go over 3200 with 140s, I just backed it down to 3145 to save brass and barrel life.

The prc lags the 4s by just a little bit, 50-100fps but is going to have much more support and availability for brass and ammo. I think my next barrel will be in 6.5 prc for this rifle for those reasons. The small velocity hit is pretty negligible for most circumstances.

Edit: the 300 is going to have a good deal more felt recoil in my experience. The 4s with a can or brake feels not much worse than a 260, but all of the 300s I've shot have noticeably more pop

 

[Tactical Taz]

I shot with the guy who manages the ranch for the ELR match here in Wyoming. He set up all the stages and said he proofed them out with his 6XC and quite a few guys ran a 243/6 mm Creedmoor or something similar. I asked him about his thoughts on this question and he said the gap 4s was plenty for that match. He told me the year before most had a Win mags and Normas and a majority of people he talked to decided that was too much rifle for that match as it was difficult to spot impacts. There furthest target was 1760. I have no personal experience with the match and I am waiting on a PRC myself so I can only pass on what I was told. Hope it helps.

 

[dgheriani]

Thanks fellas!

 

[Sendit6.5]

FWIW, I'm building a SwitchLug rifle in 6.5 SAUM and 300WSM on a TL3 so I have the choice. Could just as easily do it with one of those 700sa's you've got. Just thought I'd throw that out there.


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[dgheriani]

FWIW, I'm building a SwitchLug rifle in 6.5 SAUM and 300WSM on a TL3 so I have the choice. Could just as easily do it with one of those 700sa's you've got. Just thought I'd throw that out there.


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I'd honestly never thought of that. I'm not well versed on the 300WSM, can you get the same speed as with a 300WM?

 

[MtnCreek]

Win mag has a good bit more case capacity than the short mag.

 

[NateVA]

300 will have more energy, but likely more drop. With the long barrel, 3100-3150 might be more in the realm for the 6.5. my 28" gap 4s can go over 3200 with 140s, I just backed it down to 3145 to save brass and barrel life.

The prc lags the 4s by just a little bit, 50-100fps but is going to have much more support and availability for brass and ammo. I think my next barrel will be in 6.5 prc for this rifle for those reasons. The small velocity hit is pretty negligible for most circumstances.

Edit: the 300 is going to have a good deal more felt recoil in my experience. The 4s with a can or brake feels not much worse than a 260, but all of the 300s I've shot have noticeably more pop

Is this a long action sort of deal or would I be able to use the PRC in a Mausingfield short action? I'm going to buy the magnum bolthead from Ted anyway, just need to find a use for it.

 

[Ledzep]

My gap 4s is in a short action mausingfield. I see no reason why the prc wouldn't work. Probably will feed better, too without the rebated rim.

 

[Jedi]

A 7mm would be my suggestion
7saum
7/270 wsm
7prc

 

[steve123]

The 300 will beat up on you unless built heavy, not horrible, but you know what I mean. The 6.5 is much less recoil and if built in a heavy rifle is very tame.

6,5 Saum, 7.25 twist barrel, the new heavy's 147, 150, 155.... golden.

 

[spife7980]

I'd honestly never thought of that. I'm not well versed on the 300WSM, can you get the same speed as with a 300WM?

With the lighter bullets you can, with heavier bullets youll start to fall behind a bit.

 

[Carl_Ross]

One of our local guys has shot the Wyoming match both years using a 6.5 SAUM. He placed decently. IIRC he mentioned something like 5 of the top 10 were running 6.5's this year. Were I to shoot it I'd use either a 6.5 or 7 SAUM (or PRC if you want, close enough to be interchangeable I think). Depending on the conditions the 7's additional recoil COULD be worth it for the extra splash.

With most of the reasonable ELR chamberings, the ballistics are in the same ballpark and you are just balancing recoil (and cost) vs splash.

 

[schmi015]

i wouldn't recommend putting a lapua bolt face on for that Rem 700LA, the lap case is just too much oomph for that action. I have a 6.5saum4s and would probably go with the prc since you can now get factory ammo. My time is limited and loading the saum might be easier if i could just buy the ammo, I have a backlog of 2000 various pieces of brass to clean and trim. just something to consider.

 

[Conrad]

I shot with the guy who manages the ranch for the ELR match here in Wyoming. He set up all the stages and said he proofed them out with his 6XC and quite a few guys ran a 243/6 mm Creedmoor or something similar. I asked him about his thoughts on this question and he said the gap 4s was plenty for that match. He told me the year before most had a Win mags and Normas and a majority of people he talked to decided that was too much rifle for that match as it was difficult to spot impacts. There furthest target was 1760. I have no personal experience with the match and I am waiting on a PRC myself so I can only pass on what I was told. Hope it helps.

I find it strange that you say the guys couldn’t spot impacts at ELR distances with the big magnums, and you say it in the context that they could not stay on target or get back on target so went to smaller rounds. This seems totally counter intuitive: At those ranges you should be able to stay on target or get back on target given long time of flight and most ELR shooters view larger bullets as a benefit so they CAN see splash and spot misses. Don’t get me wrong the fast 6.5s and 7s can play that game pretty well but at 1500+ a little more splash helps with seeing misses. Maybe more targets are around 1000?

 

[jbailey]

I find it strange that you say the guys couldn’t spot impacts at ELR distances with the big magnums, and you say it in the context that they could not stay on target or get back on target so went to smaller rounds. This seems totally counter intuitive: At those ranges you should be able to stay on target or get back on target given long time of flight and most ELR shooters view larger bullets as a benefit so they CAN see splash and spot misses. Don’t get me wrong the fast 6.5s and 7s can play that game pretty well but at 1500+ a little more splash helps with seeing misses. Maybe more targets are around 1000?

I would agree. If you are shooting the big magnum in 7 or .30 correctly, you should have no trouble staying on a 1000+ yd target and have a massive advantage in seeing down range splash and impact. 200grs are 200grs at 0 yds or 2000yds and this advantage in energy only increases as range increases. Time and time again the little bullets disappear leaving no evidence of their impacts (even hits!) whereas the bigger bullets still give you that evidence.

Now if you are shooting these rifles from non-prone positions or prone positions where the ground can't adsorb the recoil, I could see a 6 or a 6.5 having advantage.

 

[Tactical Taz]

I find it strange that you say the guys couldn’t spot impacts at ELR distances with the big magnums, and you say it in the context that they could not stay on target or get back on target so went to smaller rounds. This seems totally counter intuitive: At those ranges you should be able to stay on target or get back on target given long time of flight and most ELR shooters view larger bullets as a benefit so they CAN see splash and spot misses. Don’t get me wrong the fast 6.5s and 7s can play that game pretty well but at 1500+ a little more splash helps with seeing misses. Maybe more targets are around 1000?

I would like to note that I do not have personal experience with the match, or any true ELR match. I am only the messenger here in this case. I personally am probably not at the point to shoot a big .30 for that many rounds in a weekend but for some it is probably no sweat. Perhaps the info went in one ear and I miss interpreted as spotting impacts versus getting beat up from recoil. Who knows. What I do remember was the ranch manager saying is "Most people I talked to said the .30 Mags were too much gun for that match." If I remember right, the top 10 consisted of entirely 6.5 Saums and 300 Norma's? I would assume more targets closer to 1000-1300, to which I wouldn't have many concerns about shooting a smaller bullet at our altitude. I get your point for splash. I've played with my 6 creed around 1500 and had a hard time seeing the miss.

 

[Tactical Taz]

I would agree. If you are shooting the big magnum in 7 or .30 correctly, you should have no trouble staying on a 1000+ yd target and have a massive advantage in seeing down range splash and impact. 200grs are 200grs at 0 yds or 2000yds and this advantage in energy only increases as range increases. Time and time again the little bullets disappear leaving no evidence of their impacts (even hits!) whereas the bigger bullets still give you that evidence.

Now if you are shooting these rifles from non-prone positions or prone positions where the ground can't adsorb the recoil, I could see a 6 or a 6.5 having advantage.

I think they tried to put a hunting emphasis on that match with more animal targets. With that I would think a lot of it would be prone for a "hunting" type match but not all of it. Again, I do not have first hand experience so it is my guess beyond the original post. Also, aren't matches now supposed to have hit indicators for targets over like 800? I do catch your drift for splash on misses and is definitely something to take into account!

 

[Conrad]

That all makes sense. 6.5 SAUM is going to be more pleasant to shoot if most targets are 1300 and in. Since it said ELR I️ was thinking most targets were 1500+. Thanks for the info!

 

[Barney88PDC]

The match the last two years was won with a Surgeon Rifle Chambered in 300 Norma Mag. Seeing impacts is key. The targets this year were further than last year. I think the closest was 600 something. I didn't shoot it myself, but I did get the info about it from the MD himself and the longest shot and average distance was increased compared to the 2016 match. I really wanted to make it this year but I had a bunch of matches before and after and I had just got my 300 and was still tweaking a load. I might try to go make it 3 in a row for Team Surgeon in 2018. The recoil with a heavy rifle and good brake is not bad at all, however the concussion is intense.

 

[Tactical Taz]

Barney88PDC Do you have a brake you recommend for larger rounds? My biggest problem with braked rifles is the way the concussion hits my head. I have been using an Area 419 hellfire on a Creed. I have seen some say the sidewinder directs too much blast back for larger cases and the rocket scientist is a little better at directing it sideways with a little bit more felt recoil.

 

[dgheriani]

Thanks for all the info gents, I thin I'm going to go with a 6.5 PRC.

 

[Sheldon N]

Got a 7 SAUM barrel I'm going to run at the ELR match in March. 30 inch 8 twist heavy varmint for the Berger 195's. Pretty much worthless for anything other than a prone match, but hoping that it will do the job.

 

[Barney88PDC]

Taz, I have switched to the Hellfire for my normal match rifles. If I were to buy a brake for my ELR it would be the Sidewinder but I have no actual experience with one yet.