6.5 Creed or .223 ?? Deciding on a cross-over bolt action

[papaechowhiskey]

Hi all,

I've currently got a .30-06, 12ga, and a .22LR.

I recently sold a 6.5 Creed chassis gun to fund the kids' christmas presents.. it was my favourite, but was also worth the most, so it was sold and presents were bought.

Anyway, I'm looking at putting something together in a cross-over chassis, eg KRG Bravo or the MDT XRS (the MDT is actually cheaper here in Aus). I can't decide on .223 or 6.5 creed, here's the way I'm thinking;

I shoot about 50/50 range/hunting. At the range (local range is 50m, a range a bit further goes out to 300m) I use the .22LR as it's cheap and I just love the CZ. I'm not looking for a replacement range gun, but it would be fun to hit the 300m targets more accurately and ideally keep it sub-MOA.

A .223 should get me out to 300m pretty accurately. The barelled action I'm looking at runs a 1 in 8" twist so I could throw some heavier pills down range to help with the distance also.

The .223 is cheap enough to run as a target gun. For hunting, it would fill the small-medium game void that I have at the moment (anything with the 12ga is under 70m, and the 30-06 is overkill on foxes, etc.)

Ideally I'd like to setup something that I could refine at the range, then use as a kind of varmint sniper setup, to pick-off foxes at maybe 300m or so. I'm hoping the .223 would have enough power to take down a decent sized pig at closer ranges also. (I'm in Aus, so our biggest game that easily accessible is deer.. which I'd use the 30-06 for).

Or... I go a 6.5 creed setup. I loved my 6.5 previously, it was shooting 1/4 MOA no problems and was just a really nice round to shoot. It's more expensive to run by around 70% over the .223 not including the shorter barrel life. $1 per round for the .223 vs $1.70-$3 for the 6.5 creed (I'm not hand loading, used to, but can't be bothered anymore). With the 6.5 I know that a fox out to 400m would be no issue at all, nor would a large pig at closer ranges, or a even deer at a reasonable range.

Do I get the .223 to add to my current arrangement, and use the 30-06 for deer and larger pigs? Or do I go the 6.5 creed, and possibly sell the 30-06 at some point to put some better glass on the new rig.... thinking the 6.5 can take down any of the larger game we have here in Aus with the appropriate pill, but can shoot targets and small varmints with the Hornady American Gunner 140gr that runs about $1.70 a round if bought in bulk (I was getting 1/4 MOA out of it previously). Therefore the cross-over gun becomes my main hunting rig, the .22LR can be my fun range gun, and the 12ga can be close range/scrub hunting.

 

[Snipe260]

6.5!

 

[nickw]

If you’re limited to 300 yards I would definitely go .223. The cartridge can easily take you to 6-800 yards if you get the chance to stretch its legs a little further. Go with a 1:8 or 1:7 twist barrel so you can run heavier bullets with a better B.C. .223 will be cheaper to shoot, better barrel life, and have less recoil.

My second suggestion would be to purchase a rifle or action that will allow you to make your own barrel changes. Depending on your budget, a Savage would be entry-level and Bighorn or ARC would be top tier (BH and ARC use Savage bbl threads). A bunch of companies make prefit savage barrels. All you would need to do is change the bolt head, barrel, and magazine to turn your .223 rifle into a 6.5 creed or something else. If you wanted to go with Remington 700 style action you can get a remage barrel nut system to change your own barrels like a savage or you could buy an Impact action and run pre-fit shouldered barrels (this is what I do). Many ways to skin the cat. Need to look at your budget and if you want to be able to switch between calibers down the road on the same action/rifle. Good luck.

 

[b6graham]

9 twist isnt gonna cut it for a 223. You want a 7 twist but even then you're not pushing the best bullets with only factory ammo

Nickw got it right. Run both. And learn to reload the 223

Bighorn origin
223 and 6.5 prefit shouldered barrels

 

[Dyholcom]

If the 6.5 was your favorite, safe to say you’d probably be happy with another. I’d personally sell the 06 and get some good glass for the 6.5. I’d also sell the 12ga if you’re only using it as a slug gun to hunt with. Take your favorite rifle and top it with some quality glass and it’ll be even more enjoyable. Save your brass and invest in reloading equipment the next time you’re itching to buy something. That’s what I would do.

 

[papaechowhiskey]

If you’re limited to 300 yards I would definitely go .223. The cartridge can easily take you to 6-800 yards if you get the chance to stretch its legs a little further. Go with a 1:8 or 1:7 twist barrel so you can run heavier bullets with a better B.C. .223 will be cheaper to shoot, better barrel life, and have less recoil.

My second suggestion would be to purchase a rifle or action that will allow you to make your own barrel changes. Depending on your budget, a Savage would be entry-level and Bighorn or ARC would be top tier (BH and ARC use Savage bbl threads). A bunch of companies make prefit savage barrels. All you would need to do is change the bolt head, barrel, and magazine to turn your .223 rifle into a 6.5 creed or something else. If you wanted to go with Remington 700 style action you can get a remage barrel nut system to change your own barrels like a savage or you could buy an Impact action and run pre-fit shouldered barrels (this is what I do). Many ways to skin the cat. Need to look at your budget and if you want to be able to switch between calibers down the road on the same action/rifle. Good luck.

Thanks!
The .223 barreled action is actually a 1 in 8” twist, my mistake. I’ll probably go the Howa 1500 barreled action in either .223 or 6.5, either will drop into the same chassis so can be swapped out easily and cheaply, as the barreled action themselves are pretty well priced.

 

[papaechowhiskey]

@b6garaham
Sorry bud, updated the original post.. it’s a 1 in 8” twist

 

[Newbie2020]

30-06 will do anything you need on larger game. I’d go 223 for cost reasons.

 

[Sogan]

.223 and learn to reload. I don’t know about AUS pricing but our factory 223 goes for around $1 a round as well. However it can be reloaded for under .30 and usually with much better consistency over factory ammo since it would be tuned for your gun if you do load development correctly

 

[rcmigpilot]

I have a Howa sa .223 in an MPA chassis and love it. It doesn't hurt that I got the action and chassis for less than what the chassis goes for. Easily under 1 MOA with 75gr Hornady Black and gets close to 1/2" @ 100 with Hornady 73gr ELD. It's so easy to hit a 10" gong at 600 (longest range I have access to) it's almost boring. The .223 is almost as fun as my .22.

 

[spife7980]

Since youll hunt with the 3006 the 223 is the most economical choice. I love mine. An 8 twist will get you up to 80 grain bullets so the 77s you see for comparatively cheap should work fine out way past your 300 meter threshold.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

I say .223 if you have no need for a long-range (>550m) precision round. You have the .30-06 for your larger-game needs, and the cost savings wrt ammo and barrel life, to me, make the decision quite simple.

If it holds still and you have ammo yielding the accuracy of which a .223 is capable, taking fox-size game at 300m is easy. A stiff crosswind will move the bullet at that range, but not so much that I'd hesitate to take the shot.

You probably know this, but putting 55-grain bulk ammo in a .223 and expecting good accuracy is like putting cheap tires on a track car and expecting good lap times. My Tikka T3X Varmint in an MDT chassis is a consistent 1/2-MOA or better rifle with 69- and 77-grain SMKs in pretty much any loading I've tried - although so far it has shown a distinct dislike for 75-gr Hornady bullets in a couple of loads people have given me to try. This past Monday, I put five rapid-fire rounds of 69-gr SMKs into a 3-inch group at 540 yards - boringly easy on a calm day. More wind --> more challenge. But 55gr FMJ-BTs in bulk factory or handloads are maybe 2" @100 yards.

Don't get me wrong, I love my 6.5CM. But I save it mostly for competition and the relatively infrequent trips to the 1000-yard range to which I belong. In order of usage, my Vudoo .22 gets the most, followed by .223, on the 550-yard range 25 minutes from my home. The 6.5CM is a distant 3rd place, because I'm cheap.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

223 because it's versatile, and also a gateway caliber to begin handloading.

I've shot it in a 24" bolt rifle in Regional LR Nationals comp at 600yd, using 75gr handloads. But any of the 75-77gr commercial match loads will serve admirably as long as the rifle has at least a 1:9" rifling twist and a longer barrel.

Greg

 

[b6graham]

what factory ammo are you gonna be shooting if 223?

what does hornady American gunner run in AUS?

 

[papaechowhiskey]

Thanks for the replies all.

To be clear regarding the hand-loading, I used to do it for many years and was fully setup for it. Now having two kids under 4, limited space and even less time due to long hours at work and family duties in "free time", it's just not feasible for me any more.

what factory ammo are you gonna be shooting if 223?

what does hornady American gunner run in AUS?

Not sure on the 223 ammo. I'd basically buy a dozen boxes in various weights/brands and see which the barrel likes best.

The Hornady American Gunner 140Gr 6.5creed runs for $270 / 200pk, so about $1.35 per round. It shot incredibly well for me last time, for factory ammo anyway. I'd use that for any target work and small varmints. Anything bigger would need something with a more hunting-focussed projectile which will run about $2.25 per round. Comparing that to the possible .223 options and it's not really that much more expensive... eg Hornady 60gr TAP is $0.90 per round and Federal Power-Shok 64gr JSPs are actually $1.80 per round.

Over the course of a year, given it's not my primary target rifle, the round count would be relatively low, eg

Hunting 60 rounds (40 small varmint /20 larger game)
Target 300 rounds

Comparing each using the above numbers would bring me to $504 for the creed and $342 for the .223

The other thing to consider is with the creed, I'd offset the cost by getting rid of the 30-06 as I won't need it anymore... so total cost comes down by about $800 versus the .223 in which the 30-06 will stay.

 

[papaechowhiskey]

I have a Howa sa .223 in an MPA chassis and love it. It doesn't hurt that I got the action and chassis for less than what the chassis goes for. Easily under 1 MOA with 75gr Hornady Black and gets close to 1/2" @ 100 with Hornady 73gr ELD. It's so easy to hit a 10" gong at 600 (longest range I have access to) it's almost boring. The .223 is almost as fun as my .22.

What glass are you running on that setup?

 

[rcmigpilot]

6-24 x 50 Athlon Midas TAC, bought it used on the PX. I'm really impressed with the Athlon, glass is close to my PST II.

 

[papaechowhiskey]

6-24 x 50 Athlon Midas TAC, bought it used on the PX. I'm really impressed with the Athlon, glass is close to my PST II.

Very nice.. I haven't used one but they get some great feedback.

 

[Brazo]

223

 

[papaechowhiskey]

That's 9 for the 223 and 2 votes for the 6.5 creed...

Would you say I'm nuts if I can't seem to stay away from the 6.5 despite the advice?

My main reason is that I'm not particularly fond of my 30-06, I just can't get it to group as nicely as I'd like... so the 6.5 offers me an exit strategy for the '06 and will fulfill basically any/all hunting requirements in Aus, whilst excelling at the range also... plus it reduces my outlay by about $800 as I should get that for the '06 on the used market.

 

[Wannabustbunnies]

I would also say 223 for 300m shooting and foxes. I have a Howa in both 223 and 6.5 Creedmoor. The 223 is a do it all rifle, foxes rabbits and practice for comps. The 6.5 I save for competition mostly.
If you are limited to factory ammo try the Australian Outback 55gr Blitzing or Gameking ammo and the 69gr Matchings
Also depending on what state you are in the 6.5 isn't deer legal.
Check out the Southern Cross Small Arms TSP-X chassis as well for around the same price

 

[papaechowhiskey]

I would also say 223 for 300m shooting and foxes. I have a Howa in both 223 and 6.5 Creedmoor. The 223 is a do it all rifle, foxes rabbits and practice for comps. The 6.5 I save for competition mostly.
If you are limited to factory ammo try the Australian Outback 55gr Blitzing or Gameking ammo and the 69gr Matchings
Also depending on what state you are in the 6.5 isn't deer legal.
Check out the Southern Cross Small Arms TSP-X chassis as well for around the same price

Thanks mate. I loved my 6.5 Howa that I sold previously. Only issue with the 223 is that it’s not a do-it-all rifle for me when it comes to hunting. Definitely more economical for foxes, but given I’d only get 20-30 a year so the cost difference is marginal. I’m in NSW so the 6.5 is fine for deer, which basically means I could get rid of the ‘06 and put the funds towards the new rig.

I like the SCSA chassis, I just like the MDT or KRG a little better. I’m actually leaning toward the MDT XRS as the forend is a little longer and I won’t need to add a spigot mount like I would with the bravo. It looks like the bolt will clear the cheek riser as well, which is a bonus vs the Bravo.

 

[acudaowner]

while I truely love my 6.5 creedmoor the cost per shot is a lot more than my 223 and while I can still get the 223 at almost the same cost now durning the pandemic around 39 cents per round my cost to get the 6.5 has risen even more around 1.16 per round and everywhere I would want to buy it is out . I guess it comes down to what you want and what you want to do with it I have seen people shooting steel past 600 yards pretty cheaply with the 223 and they get great performance and results with it . The same can be said with the 6.5 just more expensive you could always reload though powder is a little hard to find everywhere now a days . Good luck on which ever round you go with they are both really fun even if the 6.5 creedmoor is gods personally preferred bullet he or she allows for magical things to happen like rainbows when ever one is fired and the stars light up just to smile on the shooter and women flock to see such a manly man lol .

 

[Mike Islander]

You sound like no matter the cost, you are going to very unhappy without another 6.5. I can't say I blame you. It's such a fun round to shoot. You don't seem to have a range that will tax it in the least, but hunting may give you opportunities to stretch your legs with it. There are many excellent choices for fairly accurate budget 6.5s.

You ended up posting dual goals, a crossover round for targets and occasional fox...but...a replacement round for your 30.06. 223 won't solve the second goal. 6.5 solves both, but will cost you more to run. But you could start with the 6.5 to fulfill both goals at a bit more running costs, then save funds to round out your quiver with a 223 and drop running costs back down a bit. I know I feel like I have everything I need/want with 22, 12ga, 223, 6.5. and 30.06.

 

[papaechowhiskey]

You sound like no matter the cost, you are going to very unhappy without another 6.5. I can't say I blame you. It's such a fun round to shoot. You don't seem to have a range that will tax it in the least, but hunting may give you opportunities to stretch your legs with it. There are many excellent choices for fairly accurate budget 6.5s.

You ended up posting dual goals, a crossover round for targets and occasional fox...but...a replacement round for your 30.06. 223 won't solve the second goal. 6.5 solves both, but will cost you more to run. But you could start with the 6.5 to fulfill both goals at a bit more running costs, then save funds to round out your quiver with a 223 and drop running costs back down a bit. I know I feel like I have everything I need/want with 22, 12ga, 223, 6.5. and 30.06.

You’re pretty much spot on from all sides. Whilst I don’t have easy access to a range where the 6.5 would give me much benefit over the 223, it won’t be my primary range gun (the 22 will be which is setup to stretch out to 250m +/-). My 22 also has interchangeable barrels and I can swap it over to a .17HMR in about 5mins, which then becomes a great fox gun for 100m ranges give or take a little.

Initially when I wrote this post I was thinking I’d keep the .30-06, but to be honest, it’s not my favourite rifle and if I could change it out for something else I would. So as the post went on I’ve swayed towards offloading the ‘06, picking up a 6.5 and using the cash from the ‘06 to put towards some glass. The 6.5 then becomes my primary hunting rig, will take varmint out to distances that I wouldn’t care to exceed anyway, but will also take anything from foxes to pigs and deer which covers everything for me. If I go foxing for a weekend in an area where I know there are no deer, I can always swap the 17HMR barrel across on the 22 or simply take the 12g with some BB shells and whistle them right up.

Given hunting isn’t a bulk ammo type activity (for me anyway) the cost difference is negligible as the round count is low. The 22 is my range toy and the 6.5 won’t replace it, but might be taken along on occasion for some shooting at 300m, or a couple of times a year when we get onto a property that has a range setup at 1km...

 

[Mike Islander]

Yes, I have loved my little 6.5 CM from the day I got it. Strictly a hunting rig. That's a SWFA fixed 6X scope with FFP quad MRAD. Shoots less than half MOA with monotonous regularity. ☺

 

[b6graham]

i still vote 6.5 creed

if you're gonna be shoot 60 and 64gr 223 that's a lot different than what most guys do in the 75-80gr class