6.5 Creed speed question

[Rum&Powder]

So I have run full ladder tests with three different powders and the highest velocity I have been able to get was about 2700fps. Frank has mentioned on the podcast a couple times the sweet spot for 6.5 creedmoor is about 2850fps.
Any idea how the hell he is getting that velocity? Are any of you getting similar velocities?
I have a 24" barrel with a 4" APA muzzle brake hanging off the end of it.
I have tried superformance, 6.5 staball, and H4350.
I am using Hornady 140 gn ELDs
and seating at 2.805
all three powders just cross the 2700 mark on the last load which was about .2gn over max recommended load.

 

[nn8734]

What brass are you using?

What is your max tested charge weight for H4350 (i have not used either of the other powders so no frame of reference for them)?

 

[KnowNothing256]

When you say the highest velocity you were able to get, is 2700 where you saw pressure signs? Or is that just what you got at book max charge?

I can push over 2800, but with the 140gr HPBTs and 42gr RL16 I’m at a comfortable 2760.

2850 is really pushing in a 24” barrel, I think.

 

[greentick]

Was he talking about 140s? I know recently he has been talking about lighter projos which may explain the velocity.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Was he talking about 140s? I know recently he has been talking about lighter projos which may explain the velocity.

Ahh, yeah that would make sense with the 130 class he’s been talking about.

 

[AllenOne1]

What gun/barrel are you running, some have been known to run a little slow. To run 2850 consistently I think you are looking at 26" barrel running 120 gr bullets maybe 130 gr.

You don't need to run that fast on a 6.5C to get really good results. I'm running 2750ish and have friends running even a little slower with 140 gr bullets and a 24" barrel.

 

[918v]

I think your chrony is defective. You can easily get 2800+ FPS with a max charge of Staball. Hell, I get 2750 with 42.8 grains in a Starline case.

 

[Shoots 700's]

What brand of gun/barrel?

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Ahh, yeah that would make sense with the 130 class he’s been talking about.

Yeah, that's about what I run with my 130 otm but I don't think I've ever had 140's that fast.

 

[Supersubes]

@Rum&Powder youre not off by much, but we need way more details. What barrel, what brass case, what load data are you using? 2850 is a pipe dream for a year round load in a 24” barrel imo.

 

[straightshooter1]

So I have run full ladder tests with three different powders and the highest velocity I have been able to get was about 2700fps. Frank has mentioned on the podcast a couple times the sweet spot for 6.5 creedmoor is about 2850fps.
Any idea how the hell he is getting that velocity? Are any of you getting similar velocities?
I have a 24" barrel with a 4" APA muzzle brake hanging off the end of it.
I have tried superformance, 6.5 staball, and H4350.
I am using Hornady 140 gn ELDs
and seating at 2.805
all three powders just cross the 2700 mark on the last load which was about .2gn over max recommended load.

That 2850fps from a 6.5 Creedmoor is out of a 26" barrel . . .right? So don't expect your 24"er to get there as easily. You didn't say what loads you've used with those powders, but seating to a COAL of 2.805 would seem to leave you plenty of room to seat them longer allowing for more powder charge than whatever you've been doing for additional velocity.

 

[acudaowner]

well if your getting that speed with 6.5 stabal your really packing the case full standing on it to pack it in my 26'' only runs 2700's with 42.9gr and the fastest I have went with it is 43.6 and it still only got up to 2790 and I stopped after than not wanting to waste more powder my normal limit is 42gr or under with what ever powder I am using and keep speeds between 2740 - 2880 ( preferably under than) best of luck figuring out what caused yours to go that fast or how to repeat that . if you were using a magneto speed just by chance did you increase the sensitivity I messed up once and did that started getting speeds around 3000 fps ( I knew something was way off )

 

[Bacarrat]

Icould see it happening. I run 42.5gr H4350 with the 140s and get right at 2805FPS out of a 24" Proof barrel. If one was to run RL 16, I wouldn't be too surprised to see 2900FPS.

 

[straightshooter1]

Icould see it happening. I run 42.5gr H4350 with the 140s and get right at 2805FPS out of a 24" Proof barrel. If one was to run RL 16, I wouldn't be too surprised to see 2900FPS.

Hmmm??? That H-4350 must be a little on the dry side to get to 2805.

Here's some numbers that might provide some perspective:

 

[Bacarrat]

I have QL, I know what number it should push out. Hit the little +- icon and it will tell you. You also have to play with the case capacity to get a true number. Every gun is going to be a little different. The 42.5gr of H4350 is a pretty well known load. A little high, but I don't have issues in Lapua or Normal brass. I have shot as as high as 43gr of H4350 with very good accuracy but back it down to a a safer level.

 

[straightshooter1]

I have QL, I know what number it should push out. Hit the little +- icon and it will tell you. You also have to play with the case capacity to get a true number. Every gun is going to be a little different. The 42.5gr of H4350 is a pretty well known load. A little high, but I don't have issues in Lapua or Normal brass. I have shot as as high as 43gr of H4350 with very good accuracy but back it down to a a safer level.

Yes, you're right on that one can work the numbers to get a more "true number." I mentioned the issue of dry powder simply to suggest the burn rate of your powder might be higher that the base number. The QL illustrations wasn't really for your benefit as much as it is for those who might see your numbers and wonder why they didn't/can't achieve that velocity in order to see some perspective. That's all.

 

[K80/6.5]

If it's a Tikka that's probably about right. My bartlien barrel at 24in is about 2815.

 

[gigamortis]

My node center in my Ruger RPR 24" factory barrel with Berger 130 OTMs came out to 2850fps. One ragged hole at 100 yards for 5 shots.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Ok, I take it back, I do have a 6.5cm load that goes that fast out of a 24" barrel (proof carbon). I've been doing a few tests lately and couldn't remember but with my book in front of me 42.64 gr of 4350 and my MV is 2870, but that's with a 130 otm bullet and Starline brass. SD and ES very low over 15 shots.

I did have a 140gr bullet (a few actually), that was also in the speed range of 2780-2790 , with 43.5 gr of 6.5staball and Starline brass, but that was a different barrel and action than I shoot now. (TL3 and proof carbon 24")

 

[huntnh]

I can reach those speeds with RL26 he’s probably shooting a 26 inch barrel that’s a free 50 FPS

 

[White_Shark]

I get 2858 with 135 A-tips and Staball 6.5 out of a 22” barrel at 61k psi.

147 ELDs at 2690 at 62k psi out of the same barrel. If you’re not getting that with a 26” and Staball there is something off.

 

[cruze5]

my out of box 20" Tikka 260 (140SMK) can get 2800 with 40 grains of N540.
you need to keep trying different powders. just watch for warning signs

my go to load is 2720. i could care less what others shoot, or say what i should be shooting

 

[Hondo64d]

So I have run full ladder tests with three different powders and the highest velocity I have been able to get was about 2700fps. Frank has mentioned on the podcast a couple times the sweet spot for 6.5 creedmoor is about 2850fps.
Any idea how the hell he is getting that velocity? Are any of you getting similar velocities?
I have a 24" barrel with a 4" APA muzzle brake hanging off the end of it.
I have tried superformance, 6.5 staball, and H4350.
I am using Hornady 140 gn ELDs
and seating at 2.805
all three powders just cross the 2700 mark on the last load which was about .2gn over max recommended load.

Frank also mentions using 130s because it gets you that 2850. I think R26 is about your only hope of getting 2850 with 140s at same pressures, though 4000MR gives pretty good velocities too.

That said, Frank is right about lighter bullets in the CM. Your shots are getting out there a pretty good distance before the 140s are showing a significant advantage in the wind over 130s, or even 123s. My most accurate loads are 140s at about 2695, 130s at about 2885, and 123s at about 2930. 1000 yards is where the 140s start overtaking the lighter bullets in wind advantage but at that same distance, the lighter bullets have a 1.5 mil elevation advantage. That can be a big help in with unknown distances. Also worthy of note is the reduced recoil with the lighter bullets. Makes spotting your shots noticeably easier.

All that said, if you’re shooting NRL Hunter with a Creedmoor, your are pretty much forced to shooting 140s or heavier due to their power factor requirements, which greatly favor heavier bullets. Out of the 6.5 Creedmoor, a 123 gr bullet has to make 3090fps at the muzzle and a 130 has to make 2924fps to make the NRL Hunter required power factor.

John

 

[Rum&Powder]

Wow, didn't expect this many replies this quick...
It is a factory Howa 1500 with factory barrel
I stopped just above max recommended loads. I didn'tt see any signs of pressure at that point.
I am using Hornady brass
for 4350 I was using 41.8. I got 2702fps
for staball I loaded up to 44 grains but the accuracy node seemed to be between 43.4 and 43.7 where I got 2701

 

[918v]

Oh, so you were able to get more than 2700 FPS by going up to 44 grains.

So here is what could be going on:

1. Your barrel isn’t broken in yet, it could speed up with more rounds down the bore.

2. You have insufficient bullet pull in the case neck. I tested Staball using several different seating pressures and it seems to need at least 40 PSI to get full velocity out of a charge. You might want to look into this.

3. Your chrony is bad. If it is one of the optical units then the angle of the sun to the sensors can throw the results off.

 

[Jack's Dad]

2750 with the 140 elds is a fine place to be. Still accurate at a mile.

 

[GIXXER2000]

144 Berger Hybrids 26in Bartlein AI-AX
Brass Hornady
Primer 210M
Powder H-4350
AVG 2842
SD 8.1

Set 15 of the lands

 

[darehunter]

So I have run full ladder tests with three different powders and the highest velocity I have been able to get was about 2700fps. Frank has mentioned on the podcast a couple times the sweet spot for 6.5 creedmoor is about 2850fps.
Any idea how the hell he is getting that velocity? Are any of you getting similar velocities?
I have a 24" barrel with a 4" APA muzzle brake hanging off the end of it.
I have tried superformance, 6.5 staball, and H4350.
I am using Hornady 140 gn ELDs
and seating at 2.805
all three powders just cross the 2700 mark on the last load which was about .2gn over max recommended load.

24” proof barrel
147 eldm 2.860”
43.2 h4350
Lapua sp cci 450
MV 2770 es 8 sd 4
Bump back .002 and anneal everytime
Overcharged but no pressure signs. ATTN: this is my rifle so load up slowly in yours.

 

[Earnhardt]

Oh, so you were able to get more than 2700 FPS by going up to 44 grains.

So here is what could be going on:

1. Your barrel isn’t broken in yet, it could speed up with more rounds down the bore.

2. You have insufficient bullet pull in the case neck. I tested Staball using several different seating pressures and it seems to need at least 40 PSI to get full velocity out of a charge. You might want to look into this.

3. Your chrony is bad. If it is one of the optical units then the angle of the sun to the sensors can throw the results off.

What kind of neck tension do you look for to reach 40 psi?
Thanks

 

[918v]

What kind of neck tension do you look for to reach 40 psi?
Thanks

I run .002”

but it’s not just the neck tension number. Its also neck hardness and the interior slickness of the neck that affect seating pressure and bullet pull. Annealing/not annealing, how much you size the neck, graphite lube, any wax/polish you use during tumbling, dry vs wet tumbling all affect bullet pull.

 

[Earnhardt]

What are you using to measure psi?

 

[918v]

What are you using to measure psi?

21st Century Hydro Press

 

[Simonsza1]

Was he talking about 140s? I know recently he has been talking about lighter projos which may explain the velocity.

I switched to 130s after hearing some info awhile back and Frank being one of them. 43g h4350 at 2,960fps. Shoots amazing. I also struggled getting speed out of 140 loads which is what made me head in the direction of lighter bullets plus listening to those guys. In my last barrel it was 38.9gr of rl15 behind the 130s that shot best and that was at 2,890 I believe.

 

[Yondering]

Wow, didn't expect this many replies this quick...
It is a factory Howa 1500 with factory barrel
I stopped just above max recommended loads. I didn'tt see any signs of pressure at that point.
I am using Hornady brass
for 4350 I was using 41.8. I got 2702fps
for staball I loaded up to 44 grains but the accuracy node seemed to be between 43.4 and 43.7 where I got 2701

Guessing that factory barrel is a 22”? Probably with a fairly generous (long) throat too?

FWIW I’ve got a 22” Ruger RAP that won’t run any faster than that with StaBall either; not sure what the deal is exactly but it just won’t make the speed with that powder that others get, and ES is very high too (like 100+ fps). I think with the long factory throat it just won’t build pressure fast enough to run right, even with magnum primers and several grains over book max, so I gave up in it.

I did find magic with that barrel though with the 145 MB over 42.8gr of RL16 for 2,725 fps - a bit short of the 2,800+ a few guys are seeing with 26” barrels but it’ll reach out and touch things anyway. The other part of the equation was switching to MDT mags and loading at 2.960” (my actual load data uses BTO instead of COL but this is for comparison to yours); with that long factory throat it made a big difference in accuracy.

Superformance was good for stepping on the throttle a bit and gaining extra speed, but accuracy was good one day and then terrible the next, just really inconsistent and I didn’t identify the cause. RL17 gave a little more speed too, but was more temp sensitive and spiked pressure hard in the heat. RL16 gave me the consistency and accuracy I wanted so I stuck with it.

I’d still like to try RL26 but it’s been unobtainable around here for a long time now.

 

[Rum&Powder]

Guessing that factory barrel is a 22”? Probably with a fairly generous (long) throat too?

FWIW I’ve got a 22” Ruger RAP that won’t run any faster than that with StaBall either; not sure what the deal is exactly but it just won’t make the speed with that powder that others get, and ES is very high too (like 100+ fps). I think with the long factory throat it just won’t build pressure fast enough to run right, even with magnum primers and several grains over book max, so I gave up in it.

I did find magic with that barrel though with the 145 MB over 42.8gr of RL16 for 2,725 fps - a bit short of the 2,800+ a few guys are seeing with 26” barrels but it’ll reach out and touch things anyway. The other part of the equation was switching to MDT mags and loading at 2.960” (my actual load data uses BTO instead of COL but this is for comparison to yours); with that long factory throat it made a big difference in accuracy.

Superformance was good for stepping on the throttle a bit and gaining extra speed, but accuracy was good one day and then terrible the next, just really inconsistent and I didn’t identify the cause. RL17 gave a little more speed too, but was more temp sensitive and spiked pressure hard in the heat. RL16 gave me the consistency and accuracy I wanted so I stuck with it.

I’d still like to try RL26 but it’s been unobtainable around here for a long time now.

The factory barrel is 24 but the throat is excessivly long....like .1 inches longer than I am seating. Yes, that was a correct number... into the lands was something like 2.905ish (don't have notebook in front of me.
My rifle has the APC chassis so switching to the MDT mags is not an option without changing chassis and 2 810 is max length in the mags that fit this rifle.
I just stopped at the reccomend book max but I will go up in .3gn increments until I see signs of pressure and then back off.
The 140gn match grade ammo I buy runs 2689 for Hornady and about 2740 for Winchester. I am able to consistently hit ipsic targets at 1000 yds with those, so If I stay in that speed arena it is not a loss, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't losing out on something.

@918v
I have no idea how to even check neck tension and am guessing that will be something I will have to ask you about in a year or two. I have just started reloading this past winter. I am still have another 300-400 rounds of once fired brass to reload and may not even start trimming until the 3rd or 4th firing.
When I figure out basics, I will reach out again for info on annealing and neck tension. Thanks for the info as it sounds like others got help out of it.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I am happy to get 2600 out of my RPR with 24" barrel. But I really think it is a slow barrel (something of a curse in the Kirste Household, it seems the majority of rifles area rather slow.). Currently using 130 Norma's in the MPA and getting 2850FPS. Very mild load though. Superformance powder. Got almost equal velocities when testing using H4350 which surprised me as Superformance seems to be the fastest powder in all three of the 6.5's that I owned.

But then, trying to get the very highest velocities from my rifles has never been a priority to me.

 

[Yondering]

I don't see any point in using a powder like Superformance (or Lever, CFE223, etc in smaller cartridges) if you're not trying to get the most velocity out of it. Might as well stick with a more temp stable powder like 4350 if you are happy with a slower load.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I don't see any point in using a powder like Superformance (or Lever, CFE223, etc in smaller cartridges) if you're not trying to get the most velocity out of it. Might as well stick with a more temp stable powder like 4350 if you are happy with a slower load.

That’s a good point. Not long after purchasing the RPR in 2017, the velocities I was getting using all the standard powders was disappointing. Velocities were in the mid 2300 to 2400 using fairly stout loads.
Reviewing published data (the book kind not what people “say” on the internet) demonstrated that Superformance was giving a marked increase in velocities. So, I switched. Velocities matched the measured velocities of Hornady factory loads using the same bullets. (And I was not having to push the rifle hard) Velocities of handloads and factory laods were determined by a Chronograph, being shot on the under similar conditions on the same day. .

Now, why would I consider staying with that powder. I am getting better velocities with Superformance using moderate loads than when using other powders with close to max loads. Accuracy has been exceptional for this old shooter and metering is so much easier. Lots of reasons to “stick” with the that ball powder. (Pardon the backwards pun)

The only surprise this year, when working up loads for the Norma 130 H4350 (which is almost unobtainium) were very close to Superformance velocities. Since I can get Superformance, live in a moderate climate where temperature swings are all but non-existent, I really find no reason to switch.

 

[JD. martin]

So I have run full ladder tests with three different powders and the highest velocity I have been able to get was about 2700fps. Frank has mentioned on the podcast a couple times the sweet spot for 6.5 creedmoor is about 2850fps.
Any idea how the hell he is getting that velocity? Are any of you getting similar velocities?
I have a 24" barrel with a 4" APA muzzle brake hanging off the end of it.
I have tried superformance, 6.5 staball, and H4350.
I am using Hornady 140 gn ELDs
and seating at 2.805
all three powders just cross the 2700 mark on the last load which was about .2gn over max recommended load.

Evening my freind just wanted to pass on the Secret is Alliant Reloader 26. Lapua brass. Proof Research 24” Tube. Getting 2828fps 150 SMK. 2838fps 153A-tip 153.5Berger still around the a-tip velocity. 140 class Right at 2900 maybe few cents Over
“WITH NO PSI SIGNS”!! Bolt lift bras primers flat like all Creedmoor rounds well under half min with all. Just wanted to share this

 

[Paul1262]

My average mv using Hornady 6.5cm 140 gr ELDM is 2,727 fps in a Lothar Walther 26" #M24 contour barrel.

 

[Cwl]

So I have run full ladder tests with three different powders and the highest velocity I have been able to get was about 2700fps. Frank has mentioned on the podcast a couple times the sweet spot for 6.5 creedmoor is about 2850fps.
Any idea how the hell he is getting that velocity? Are any of you getting similar velocities?
I have a 24" barrel with a 4" APA muzzle brake hanging off the end of it.
I have tried superformance, 6.5 staball, and H4350.
I am using Hornady 140 gn ELDs
and seating at 2.805
all three powders just cross the 2700 mark on the last load which was about .2gn over max recommended load.

Hi Rum,
I am running a 26” barrel , RL16: 147 ELDs=2750, 140 ELDs=2870. Like you I couldn’t get past 2650 with H4350, once I got higher, I’d get flatten primers.

 

[Lunchbox27]

My 20” factory Tikka barrel was getting hits with ease at 1,000. 140 eld’s going 2680. IMO, an accurate load, with solid ES/SD will do way more for you, then worrying about another 150fps. Yes, you will have more drop. Yes, you will be holding a few tenth’s more for wind, but you will hit.

FWIW, I can get 2865 from my 26” Rock Creek, H4350/Lapua/140’s, but My load that shoot the best is 2750 with solid SD/ES.

 

[Sagesniffer]

I have a MPA pro in 6.5cm..I use perterson,or lapua brass,H4350 41.5gr Hornady140gr eld-m. Seat bullet to ogive 2.225
26inch barrel....same velocities with small and large rifle primers.full length resize,bump shoulder.002 constant velocity is 2780fps,no pressure signs. And it shoots......

 

[Jgunner]

My 6.5cm with Hornady brass, cci br2 or Winchester match, rl26, berger 130 hybrids is 2809 the last time I chrono'd, bout 400 rounds ago. It is a 17" xcaliber 5r barrel in 1/7 twist iirc. I want to try lapua or Peterson brass and srp and see if I can crank it up, but damn it it shoots too good to care.

 

[rustyinbend]

My 6.5cm with Hornady brass, cci br2 or Winchester match, rl26, berger 130 hybrids is 2809 the last time I chrono'd, bout 400 rounds ago. It is a 17" xcaliber 5r barrel in 1/7 twist iirc. I want to try lapua or Peterson brass and srp and see if I can crank it up, but damn it it shoots too good to care.

2800 ft/sec is "plenty" of speed for 6.5-CM. Mine is accurate to 1200 yards with just under 2700 ft/sec. That's good enough for me, as I'd like the barrel to last more than a couple thousand firings.

 

[Supersubes]

Thats cooking as is with a 17” barrel imo. Switch brass because its better brass, not because of more speed.

 

[Sagesniffer]

26in barrel,41.5 gr h4350,hornady brass,win lrp,hornady 140gr BTHP. Vel.2870. Had over 3000 rounds before finally getting a new barrel from mpa. Also got a 6mm cm at the same time,for later on.

 

[Jgunner]

Thats cooking as is with a 17” barrel imo. Switch brass because its better brass, not because of more speed.

Yeah, no pressure either, not even on 110 degree days. It is a little slower in really cold temps and I have to keep that in mind, but with 400 pieces of Hornady brass, ill wear that crap out first and likely the barrel will be done by then haha. I don't get out often enough, but I have a range now and can go out to 1400 now, but it has another 1,000 past that if I had something bigger.

 

[Supersubes]

Yeah, no pressure either, not even on 110 degree days. It is a little slower in really cold temps and I have to keep that in mind, but with 400 pieces of Hornady brass, ill wear that crap out first and likely the barrel will be done by then haha. I don't get out often enough, but I have a range now and can go out to 1400 now, but it has another 1,000 past that if I had something bigger.

Just leave it then. RL 26 in the creed is that way. Im a little surprised you can make enough pressure with a 130gn. With a 147 ELD, I cant put enough in the case to max out the pressure.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Just leave it then. RL 26 in the creed is that way. Im a little surprised you can make enough pressure with a 130gn. With a 147 ELD, I cant put enough in the case to max out the pressure.

Probably ought to take some of this H4350 I got then and I’ll take that RL-26 off your hands.

I gotchu, man