6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

[B3dlam]

Alright so I am working on a build for a 6.5 creedmoor bolt action rifle to complement the semi-auto I already have in the caliber. I just ordered a bartlein barrel blank. I am curious what guys are running for barrel lengths in this caliber its a 30" blank so I will likely be having a bit cut off I was sorta thinking about 26" as it will give me nice velocity while still not being to horribly unmanageable. But I just wanted to see what people have been doing.

 

[AHall]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

If I remember right I read yesterday something about 21" only loses 100fps compared 26". Also look into the reloading for more info. Just depends if weight is a major concern as well as maneuverability. I went with 26" myself because it's a heavy paper puncher only.

 

[Jeeprider]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

I was in your shoes a few months back for my 6.5 Creedmoor build. I went with a 26" Bartlein barrel with 5R rifling and 1-8" twist. It loves the Hornady 140 Amax.

 

[SHWILL]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

I am going 24.

 

[Papagallos]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

I decided on a finished length of 26" for mine. I am going to run it with a TBAC 30P-1.

 

[Quigley77]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

My two cents is 22-26 depending on intended use.

 

[Mike]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

I wouldn't go shorter than 24". Yes, you can have a successful rifle with a longer barrel but why push your luck?

 

[majohnson2]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

There is one problem with short barrels, your limited on having the barrel set back. My 6.5 is based on Krieger 1-8.5 twist with a 28" length not including the brake.

 

[earthquake]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

I just got a 27" Bartlein blank and am still unsure between 26" and 24". I will mostly shoot factory ammo since I don't reload, so I'm thinking longer for more MV? Though I'd rather do 24". I'm going to put a brake and a can on it eventually (SAS TOMB Arbiter combo) so I don't want an overly long barrel, but I also want the Creedmoor to perform!

 

[excess]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

I went 24" based on the recommendations of one of the very well known smiths here.

 

[mjh30]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

B3dlam, whats the contour on the blank, handling 26 inches with a Remington varmint contour is a little different than running an MTU contour or even a medium or heavy palma, but then again some folks are bigger than others and have no problems with that aspect.

 

[264Charlie]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

After shooting a lot of matches with a 22, 24, 26 and 28" barrels I see little difference in handling from them. Every FPS is helping you and every inch you remove does nothing for you.

If I was running a 6CM or .243 I would run a 24" because a 28" barrel will be too bast for most matches at 3100fps

Now a 6.5CM is slow and every FPS is key to extracting the performance out of the round. I would run a 26 to 28" barrel. The fps you are going to lose running a short barrel like 21" is huge.

Running the numbers in QuickLoad, this is a model with the same load in each gun. Yes, you could up the pressure in the 20" barrel to equal the 28fps but you could do the same in the 28" barrel and be on top again.

20 - 2631fps

24 - 2736fps

28 - 2825fps

A 200fps spread is huge, so huge a fancy "laser" round in a 20" barrel will likely have worse ballistics than a .308 running a 28" barrel. End the end very inch matters.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

I run 26" on my comp 65CM, and haven't stuck it in the ground yet...

Barrels and rifles are tools, pick the best for the job. I don't deploy out of vehicles for a living, so shorties are a novelty to me. If you are going to run a can that changes things a bit too, and the OAL of the rifle with can needs to be considered. I don't so I shoot for 26"ish on all my barrels.

 

[Pusher591]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

I'm running a new 21" barrel but I'm moving from a 17.5" 308 barrel, so the improvement is substantial for me. I'm getting 2820 with 130 VLD's and they have about a 50 point increase in BC compared to my old 308 load.

.552 BC and 300 fps faster is a huge step up for me. I'm not a huge competition guy, but the switch will definately help me out.

If you don't plan on running a can and plan on running a lighter profile barrel, such as a medium Palma, I say go with a 26" barrel.

 

[ddavis]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After shooting a lot of matches with a 22, 24, 26 and 28" barrels I see little difference in handling from them. Every FPS is helping you and every inch you remove does nothing for you.

If I was running a 6CM or .243 I would run a 24" because a 28" barrel will be too bast for most matches at 3100fps

Now a 6.5CM is slow and every FPS is key to extracting the performance out of the round. I would run a 26 to 28" barrel. The fps you are going to lose running a short barrel like 21" is huge.

Running the numbers in QuickLoad, this is a model with the same load in each gun. Yes, you could up the pressure in the 20" barrel to equal the 28fps but you could do the same in the 28" barrel and be on top again.

20 - 2631fps

24 - 2736fps

28 - 2825fps

A 200fps spread is huge, so huge a fancy "laser" round in a 20" barrel will likely have worse ballistics than a .308 running a 28" barrel. End the end very inch matters. </div></div>

Reading through all the reload data I can find on here, factory 140's seem to do 2700-2750 in a 21" barrel. Mine does 2730. People with 28" barrels get from 2800-2850. On average you lose 100 fps going from 21"-28". I was willing to give up 100 fps for a better handling rifle (especially suppressed) but some may not be. It comes out to about 1/10 of a mil at 1000 yards.
-Dan

 

[264Charlie]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ddavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After shooting a lot of matches with a 22, 24, 26 and 28" barrels I see little difference in handling from them. Every FPS is helping you and every inch you remove does nothing for you.

If I was running a 6CM or .243 I would run a 24" because a 28" barrel will be too bast for most matches at 3100fps

Now a 6.5CM is slow and every FPS is key to extracting the performance out of the round. I would run a 26 to 28" barrel. The fps you are going to lose running a short barrel like 21" is huge.

Running the numbers in QuickLoad, this is a model with the same load in each gun. Yes, you could up the pressure in the 20" barrel to equal the 28fps but you could do the same in the 28" barrel and be on top again.

20 - 2631fps

24 - 2736fps

28 - 2825fps

A 200fps spread is huge, so huge a fancy "laser" round in a 20" barrel will likely have worse ballistics than a .308 running a 28" barrel. End the end very inch matters. </div></div>

Reading through all the reload data I can find on here, factory 140's seem to do 2700-2750 in a 21" barrel. Mine does 2730. People with 28" barrels get from 2800-2850. On average you lose 100 fps going from 21"-28". I was willing to give up 100 fps for a better handling rifle (especially suppressed) but some may not be. It comes out to about 1/10 of a mil at 1000 yards.
-Dan </div></div>

Reloading data from here or anywhere will not help. You can run hotter or softer loads in each barrel. The model will run true but you must use the same load in the same barrel, cutting the barrel and inch each time. You will lose more the a 100fps if you test it that way maybe not a full 200 like QL predicts. But my experience tells me more that 100fps. Though I've found QL to be very close to real world performance.

Now suppressed guns are a different story and we don't get them in CA.

Yes, at 100 fps you lose .1 in wind but .7 in elevation at 1K. At 200fps you'll lose .3 in wind and 1.5 mils of elevation.

 

[ddavis]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ddavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After shooting a lot of matches with a 22, 24, 26 and 28" barrels I see little difference in handling from them. Every FPS is helping you and every inch you remove does nothing for you.

If I was running a 6CM or .243 I would run a 24" because a 28" barrel will be too bast for most matches at 3100fps

Now a 6.5CM is slow and every FPS is key to extracting the performance out of the round. I would run a 26 to 28" barrel. The fps you are going to lose running a short barrel like 21" is huge.

Running the numbers in QuickLoad, this is a model with the same load in each gun. Yes, you could up the pressure in the 20" barrel to equal the 28fps but you could do the same in the 28" barrel and be on top again.

20 - 2631fps

24 - 2736fps

28 - 2825fps

A 200fps spread is huge, so huge a fancy "laser" round in a 20" barrel will likely have worse ballistics than a .308 running a 28" barrel. End the end very inch matters. </div></div>

Reading through all the reload data I can find on here, factory 140's seem to do 2700-2750 in a 21" barrel. Mine does 2730. People with 28" barrels get from 2800-2850. On average you lose 100 fps going from 21"-28". I was willing to give up 100 fps for a better handling rifle (especially suppressed) but some may not be. It comes out to about 1/10 of a mil at 1000 yards.
-Dan </div></div>

Reloading data from here or anywhere will not help. You can run hotter or softer loads in each barrel. The model will run true but you must use the same load in the same barrel, cutting the barrel and inch each time. You will lose more the a 100fps if you test it that way maybe not a full 200 like QL predicts. But my experience tells me more that 100fps. Though I've found QL to be very close to real world performance.

Now suppressed guns are a different story and we don't get them in CA.

Yes, at 100 fps you lose .1 in wind but .7 in elevation at 1K. At 200fps you'll lose .3 in wind and 1.5 mils of elevation.

</div></div>

Yeah, reading back through everything I can find, it may be a bit more than 100 fps. It seems to depend on the individual barrel more than anything. I was only comparing data from factory ammo, not reloads. I agree with you that every fps helps, but at a point you hit diminishing returns. Everything is a compromise, you just have to decide what you want to compromise. If I had no plans of running a suppressor, I would have went with a longer barrel in a bit lighter contour for the same overall weight/balance. I think a 24-26" light Palma would be about perfect. I went with a 21" medium Palma for suppressed use. I have a feeling it will still be very muzzle heavy with the suppressor.
-Dan

 

[fireguyty]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After shooting a lot of matches with a 22, 24, 26 and 28" barrels I see little difference in handling from them. Every FPS is helping you and every inch you remove does nothing for you.

If I was running a 6CM or .243 I would run a 24" because a 28" barrel will be too bast for most matches at 3100fps

Now a 6.5CM is slow and every FPS is key to extracting the performance out of the round. I would run a 26 to 28" barrel. The fps you are going to lose running a short barrel like 21" is huge.

Running the numbers in QuickLoad, this is a model with the same load in each gun. Yes, you could up the pressure in the 20" barrel to equal the 28fps but you could do the same in the 28" barrel and be on top again.

20 - 2631fps

24 - 2736fps

28 - 2825fps

A 200fps spread is huge, so huge a fancy "laser" round in a 20" barrel will likely have worse ballistics than a .308 running a 28" barrel. End the end very inch matters. </div></div>

I have shot with Charlie, and respect his opinion. This will be one time that I disagree with him though. I have two rifles with three different barrels in 6.5 CM. A 26.5" and a 22" in my DTA. I also have a 16.5" Remington 700.

My dope to 1000 yards for the three is as follows:
26.5" 7.8 Mil
22" 8.1 Mil
16.5" 9.2 Mil

All shoot the same load of 41.6 H4350 with a 139 Scener.

Up to about 600 yards, the 26.5 and the 22 hold the same dope. My use for the DTA is comp shoots. Most of those comps keep the distance inside of 650 yards. The little 22" is nice to poke through port holes, and keeping the weight further inward is very nice for positional stages.

I will likely not run another Creed longer than 22" and am considering selling my 26.5" barrel.

Ty

 

[264Charlie]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fireguyty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After shooting a lot of matches with a 22, 24, 26 and 28" barrels I see little difference in handling from them. Every FPS is helping you and every inch you remove does nothing for you.

If I was running a 6CM or .243 I would run a 24" because a 28" barrel will be too bast for most matches at 3100fps

Now a 6.5CM is slow and every FPS is key to extracting the performance out of the round. I would run a 26 to 28" barrel. The fps you are going to lose running a short barrel like 21" is huge.

Running the numbers in QuickLoad, this is a model with the same load in each gun. Yes, you could up the pressure in the 20" barrel to equal the 28fps but you could do the same in the 28" barrel and be on top again.

20 - 2631fps

24 - 2736fps

28 - 2825fps

A 200fps spread is huge, so huge a fancy "laser" round in a 20" barrel will likely have worse ballistics than a .308 running a 28" barrel. End the end very inch matters. </div></div>

I have shot with Charlie, and respect his opinion. This will be one time that I disagree with him though. I have two rifles with three different barrels in 6.5 CM. A 26.5" and a 22" in my DTA. I also have a 16.5" Remington 700.

My dope to 1000 yards for the three is as follows:
26.5" 7.8 Mil
22" 8.1 Mil
16.5" 9.2 Mil

All shoot the same load of 41.6 H4350 with a 139 Scener.

Up to about 600 yards, the 26.5 and the 22 hold the same dope. My use for the DTA is comp shoots. Most of those comps keep the distance inside of 650 yards. The little 22" is nice to poke through port holes, and keeping the weight further inward is very nice for positional stages.

I will likely not run another Creed longer than 22" and am considering selling my 26.5" barrel.

Ty </div></div>

Hey Ty, I don't think your and my numbers or that far off. Mine is just a model done at sea level.

9.2 with a 139 puts you at 2900 in the 26.5" barrels ant 9.2 put you at 2710 in the 16.5" Now you're running hotter loads at higher altitudes so some error is going to come from that. Plus you are running three different barrels. You are losing about 19fps per inch vs. my guess at sea lever with the same barrel (keep pressures the same) of 24fps.

Your hotter loads are likely equal to a factory load running in a 21" barrel vs your 16.5" I would assume factory ammo shoot much slower than that.

Now your 16.5 "laser" would get schooled by a 27" 308 running a 180 Berger at 2800.

180 Berger @ 2800
1000 yards
Drop -8.4 Mils - 301.9"
Wind 1.9 Mils - 69.6"

139 Lapua @ 2710
1000 yards
Drop -9.2 Mils - 330.3"
Wind - 2.1Mils 75.6"

 

[fireguyty]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fireguyty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After shooting a lot of matches with a 22, 24, 26 and 28" barrels I see little difference in handling from them. Every FPS is helping you and every inch you remove does nothing for you.

If I was running a 6CM or .243 I would run a 24" because a 28" barrel will be too bast for most matches at 3100fps

Now a 6.5CM is slow and every FPS is key to extracting the performance out of the round. I would run a 26 to 28" barrel. The fps you are going to lose running a short barrel like 21" is huge.

Running the numbers in QuickLoad, this is a model with the same load in each gun. Yes, you could up the pressure in the 20" barrel to equal the 28fps but you could do the same in the 28" barrel and be on top again.

20 - 2631fps

24 - 2736fps

28 - 2825fps

A 200fps spread is huge, so huge a fancy "laser" round in a 20" barrel will likely have worse ballistics than a .308 running a 28" barrel. End the end very inch matters. </div></div>

I have shot with Charlie, and respect his opinion. This will be one time that I disagree with him though. I have two rifles with three different barrels in 6.5 CM. A 26.5" and a 22" in my DTA. I also have a 16.5" Remington 700.

My dope to 1000 yards for the three is as follows:
26.5" 7.8 Mil
22" 8.1 Mil
16.5" 9.2 Mil

All shoot the same load of 41.6 H4350 with a 139 Scener.

Up to about 600 yards, the 26.5 and the 22 hold the same dope. My use for the DTA is comp shoots. Most of those comps keep the distance inside of 650 yards. The little 22" is nice to poke through port holes, and keeping the weight further inward is very nice for positional stages.

I will likely not run another Creed longer than 22" and am considering selling my 26.5" barrel.

Ty </div></div>

Hey Ty, I don't think your and my numbers or that far off. Mine is just a model done at sea level.

9.2 with a 139 puts you at 2900 in the 26.5" barrels ant 9.2 put you at 2710 in the 16.5" Now you're running hotter loads at higher altitudes so some error is going to come from that. Plus you are running three different barrels. You are losing about 19fps per inch vs. my guess at sea lever with the same barrel (keep pressures the same) of 24fps.

Your hotter loads are likely equal to a factory load running in a 21" barrel vs your 16.5" I would assume factory ammo shoot much slower than that.

Now your 16.5 "laser" would get schooled by a 27" 308 running a 180 Berger at 2800.

180 Berger @ 2800
1000 yards
Drop -8.4 Mils - 301.9"
Wind 1.9 Mils - 69.6"

139 Lapua @ 2710
1000 yards
Drop -9.2 Mils - 330.3"
Wind - 2.1Mils 75.6"


</div></div>

I guess if you want to compare my 16.5" trunk monkey Creed to a 27" 308 with a 180 at speeds faster than I have ever heard of anyone getting then we are close. However, my point is that a 22" Creed is not very far off of a 26.5" Creed, and both trump the hell out of a 308.

Either the 26.5 or the 22 are not very far off of the 6mm SLR that you run inside of 650 yards, and not much less at 1000. The FPS numbers sound impressive, but at half a pound of cantilever weight for 3.8% gain at 1000 yards and nothing inside of 650....what is the point?

My load is not hot. The factory Hornday load of 41.5 with a 140 Amax is only a .1 less. I have heard of people running as much as 43 in the 140 class.

My chrono results are as follows with the 139 scener load.

26.5"........2835
22"...........2755
16.5"........2615

The factory Hornday 41.5 load runs:

22"...........2775 (don't ask why....I can't explain)

The hottest I have been able to push a 308 with 168 Berger VLD is 2730 (5% over book max), so 2800 with a 180 class is impressive.

You keep using 9.2 of come up in all three barrels, but if you look again at my post it is 7.8, 8.1, and 9.2 for the 26.5, 22, and 16.5 respectively. This is all real world dope as of 3 days ago.

Charlie, no disrespect intended....this is just the way that I see it.

Ty

 

[Rob01]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

I wouldn't go shorter than 24" and would stick around 26". Mine was 28" and got set back and is 26.5" now. Never had any trouble moving around at comps with it and like being able to get good velocities without having to push it hard.

OP some advice is to look at the top shooters in tactical competitions and see what length barrels they are running. With the 6mm and 6.5s it's most always 26-28" and some down to 24" but no shorter. There's a reason for that.

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

25" is as short as I would go on a 6.5 Creedmoor
One thing I don't see much when deciding on barrel length is the size of the shooter who will be using the rifle.
Instead of building a rifle to fit a particular round maybe its a better choice to build a rifle to fit the shooter using it.

Side note
For the shooter who doesn't reload the 6.5 Creedmoor round is a good cartridge,
However,with most Tactical matches running a 3100fps speed limited is pretty much the standard.
Some matches allow for even faster speeds.
Better,faster short action cartridges are available to a shooter.
Just something to consider

 

[fireguyty]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's a reason for that.</div></div>

Ok, so what is it? Just because is not a good argument. I don't know if I am anywhere near a top shooter, but I have won several competitions.

I think folks get an idea in their head and people run with it, just because. For some reason on the internet, 6, and 6.5mm have to be 24" or longer. Why?

I think it is because folks leave stuff the way it is because that is the way it has always been. 6.5 Creedmoor is a new round and people believe it does not perform well in shorter barrels because nobody has tried it.

Forget about quick load, or internet rumor. Get a barrel and try it out. You may just find that the minimal loss of velocity equates to nearly the same elevation and windage at distance.

Then when the positional stage comes up, and you have to make 5 standing shots with a rifle that has less weight closer in you could connect a couple more times.

 

[fireguyty]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Side note
For the shooter who doesn't reload the 6.5 Creedmoor round is a good cartridge,
However,with most Tactical matches running a 3100fps speed limited is pretty much the standard.
Some matches allow for even faster speeds.
Better,faster short action cartridges are available to a shooter.
Just something to consider
</div></div>

Barrel life Dave. No, I'm not worried about spending money on a re barrel. What I am worried about is a 250 round competition and my blitzing fast 6mm shitting the bed halfway through. I have seen this happen to a couple great shooters and its heart breaking.

 

[Mike]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's a reason for that.</div></div>

Ok, so what is it? Just because is not a good argument.

<span style="font-weight: bold">it's called physics. It's called powder burn rate. We are dealing with limited pressures. IF these issues didn't exist, we would only have one powder for everything. Also, all our barrels would only be short enough to stabilize the bullet.</span>

I think folks get an idea in their head and people run with it, just because. For some reason on the internet, 6, and 6.5mm have to be 24" or longer. Why?

<span style="font-weight: bold">Are you serious? Do you think many of us as competition shooters haven't experimented extensively? When "new" cartridges come out, do you think we show up with some barrel length and guessed at what we needed? No, we tried a different options and came to the consensus of what works.</span>

Forget about quick load, or internet rumor. Get a barrel and try it out. You may just find that the minimal loss of velocity equates to nearly the same elevation and windage at distance.

<span style="font-weight: bold">See above. Also, what is a "minimal" loss of velocity?</span>

Then when the positional stage comes up, and you have to make 5 standing shots with a rifle that has less weight closer in you could connect a couple more times.

<span style="font-weight: bold">If the weight difference between a 22" barrel and a 28" barrel makes the difference in my hit percentage, I should be hitting the weight room. What does 6" of #7 barrel contour (towards the crown) actually way?</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Serious competition shooters go with what works regardless of cost. Performance is king and all the top shooters are shooting nearly identical set ups <span style="font-style: italic">for a reason</span>, not because they're all lemmings following someone blindly.</span>

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

Fireguyty

Mike bet me to a few points but......
I pretty sure I was the first shooter here in Vegas to have a 6.5 Creedmoor .
I gave up on the round due to its lack of speed.

I do know of some shooters that will being certain rifles to a match that fit the criteria of that match.
When it comes to positional I would think smaller physically weaker shooter is not going to be able to steady any rifle as well as a larger stronger shooter.

I would also think a heaver rifle would be less prone to recoil making for quicker fallowup shots .
Maybe I am wrong in this and if I am I'm sure one of the experts on here will correct me if I am.
Velocity is not much of a factor at ranges 600 yards and under.
But when you start shooting 700 and better it may come into play.

If you would,define what you think as minimal loss of velocity.

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

As for the shooters that had a 6mm shit the bed during a match that's not the rounds fault that's on the shooter.

Pushing a 6mm @3100fps with a fast burn rate powder and no throat maintenance maybe?
Pushing a round past its design capability maybe?

 

[fireguyty]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

I realize that he has his reasons, but we are having a discussion here. Putting down "there is a reason" is a weak response. Also, putting down "because that is what top shooters do", is also a weak response.

For every guy like NorCal's Animal, or Terry Cross there are 20 TOP LEVEL guys who copy their set up because it works for them. Time is money, and most top level guys are just like anyone else and have a job. Are they being lazy? No, they just don't have the time to experiment with all of these variables especially because of cost regardless of equipment being free.

Powder burn rates and physics sounds impressive, but for me it is this simple:
1000 yards with 10 MPH wind:
26.5"
7.8 elevation
1.6 wind

22"
8.1 elevation
1.6 wind

650 yards with 10 MPH wind:
26.5"
3.6 elevation
0.9 wind

22"
3.5 elevation
0.9 wind

The above mentioned reasons are why I consider 80 FPS to be "minimal" loss of velocity.

I don't know how much 6" of barrel weighs, but I do know this. I can hold a 10 pound weight in my hand near my chest for a long time. I can not hold 10 pounds with my arm extended horizontally for very long at all. Should I hit the gym for this? (BTW due to my job, I exercise nearly every day).

I shoot a DTA. Due to 6" less of barrel, and 10" less of rifle length my rifle feels lighter in positional stages. All the guys that I shoot with freely admit that I have an advantage in this area.

Now on a personal note. I know who both of you are, and recognize your skill. It is ok for me to question you. I intend no disrespect by challenging your answers. If you tell me that you have tried both ways, and you think longer is better then that is a great answer. What ever works for you is exactly that.

I am shooting Utah, and NorCal next month. Helping run the Vegas match in October, and shooting SoCal in November. I hope we cross paths so I can shake your hands.

Ty

 

[264Charlie]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

Ty - no worries brother, I'm saying you can run a 28" close to a 20" "laser" thats all. You you can get some crazy speeds with R-17 and Lapua brass seating a .308 to 2.920. I think we are saying the same thing really for different sides.

Now as they guy that had his 6susper let go in the 2nd day of AZ this hear I get you on that one. That said, more PRS matches have been won with a 6mm than anything. Can disagrees with results.

For, vegas, AZ and SoCal match the round does not matter as much as people think. As you said little difference inside 600. The PRS matches all have longer shots and stiff competition. I know for damn sure I don't have Wade to have a 1% gun advantage over me.

The most important thing of shooting a match is trusting your gear. If you trust it run with it and you'll do fine.

 

[264Charlie]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

Ty, I'll talk guns all day long man. I view it as talking that's all. I like to hear peoples points of view. Somethings they change mine sometimes not.

 

[Mike]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

I realize that he has his reasons, but we are having a discussion here. Putting down "there is a reason" is a weak response. Also, putting down "because that is what top shooters do", is also a weak response.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Well there is a legitimate reason, or else the reply wouldn't be "there is a reason". If you want more detail, the onus is on you to ask what those details are. And as far as "it's what top shooters do", again, there is a legitimate reason just as with any competition requiring specific equipment, there are viable reasons. I don't think top shooters have that sheep attitude.</span>

For every guy like NorCal's Animal, or Terry Cross there are 20 TOP LEVEL guys who copy their set up because it works for them. Time is money, and most top level guys are just like anyone else and have a job. Are they being lazy? No, they just don't have the time to experiment with all of these variables especially because of cost regardless of equipment being free.

<span style="font-weight: bold">But what you omit is that the guys like Animal and Terry Cross, George, etc. are doing the experimentation for them. George told me one time it takes him <3 min to spin on a new barrel (obviously already threaded) so how difficult is it for him to experiment? So if Terry Cross says something like "I've tried three different barrel lengths and "X" works best". Then why would I repeat his experiments? </span>

Powder burn rates and physics sounds impressive, but for me it is this simple:
1000 yards with 10 MPH wind:
26.5"
7.8 elevation
1.6 wind

22"
8.1 elevation
1.6 wind

650 yards with 10 MPH wind:
26.5"
3.6 elevation
0.9 wind

22"
3.5 elevation
0.9 wind

The above mentioned reasons are why I consider 80 FPS to be "minimal" loss of velocity.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Didn't you say "forget about Quickload" earlier in this thread? If so, then where are you getting these numbers? One can't argue with physics. Now whether or not it influences in a perceptible manner is debatable, but it is still there.</span>

I don't know how much 6" of barrel weighs, but I do know this. I can hold a 10 pound weight in my hand near my chest for a long time. I can not hold 10 pounds with my arm extended horizontally for very long at all. Should I hit the gym for this? (BTW due to my job, I exercise nearly every day).

<span style="font-weight: bold">Well, I can guarantee you that 6" of #7 barrel contour doesn't weigh 10 lbs. I can also guarantee you that no positional shooter is holding their arm straight out horizontal to shoot positional so I'm not sure what your point is? 6" of barrel is a maybe a pound or two at best.</span>

I shoot a DTA. Due to 6" less of barrel, and 10" less of rifle length my rifle feels lighter in positional stages. All the guys that I shoot with freely admit that I have an advantage in this area.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Is this psychological?</span>

Now on a personal note. I know who both of you are, and recognize your skill. It is ok for me to question you. I intend no disrespect by challenging your answers. If you tell me that you have tried both ways, and you think longer is better then that is a great answer. What ever works for you is exactly that.

<span style="font-weight: bold">For me, this is just great discussion. I don't feel any argument or "challenge". I think it's contributing to all of our learning.</span>

I am shooting Utah, and NorCal next month. Helping run the Vegas match in October, and shooting SoCal in November. I hope we cross paths so I can shake your hands.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Me too.</span>

Ty

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

For a person who is 6 foot 3 with a 74 inch reach I personally see no advantage in using a DTA.
In my limited experience dry firing a DTA it is not for me.

At the matches I shot shooters don't hold 10 pounds of any thing out chest high (You reading this Roy.?)

I think,and I may be wrong in this, the shooters who find position shooting with a sling difficult are using the sling incorrectly.

Now as far as giving up 80fps that also isn't for me.
I have 6mm short action 2.810 OACL slow burring powder loads from 3100fps to 3287fps doped and stored in a PDA/Log Book.
I will use every FPS the match Director will allow.

 

[fireguyty]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

<span style="font-weight: bold"> I don't think top shooters have that sheep attitude.</span>

Nor would I accuse them of being sheep. However, your below statement proves my point.

<span style="font-weight: bold">But what you omit is that the guys like Animal and Terry Cross, George, etc. are doing the experimentation for them. Then why would I repeat his experiments? </span>

While I can see how this statement validates your point, it also validates mine. You are taking another's (no matter the level of expertise) point of view and adopting it rather than trying out what works best for you.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Didn't you say "forget about Quickload" earlier in this thread? If so, then where are you getting these numbers? </span>

I did say this. The elevation is from real world dope I shot on 8/16. The windage is admittedly from a shooter app utilizing bullet, velocity, ect.... I don't have to tell a guy of your experience that getting wind dope off of a Kestrel never works, but neither can I put up an argument on windage with out it.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Well, I can guarantee you that 6" of #7 barrel contour doesn't weigh 10 lbs. I can also guarantee you that no positional shooter is holding their arm straight out horizontal to shoot positional so I'm not sure what your point is? 6" of barrel is a maybe a pound or two at best.</span>

Of course it doesn't weigh 10 pounds. My point is that cantilevered weight is exponentially heavier the further out, and that every ounce in positional shooting counts on your fatigue. This is one reason different size boxers use different weight of gloves.

I shoot a DTA. Due to 6" less of barrel, and 10" less of rifle length my rifle feels lighter in positional stages. All the guys that I shoot with freely admit that I have an advantage in this area.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Is this psychological?</span>

No see above. My rifle is the same weight as others, but not so long. That equates to less cantilevered weight. However, this argument over positional (which I brought up) is detracting from the reason I prefer the shorter barrel. A lighter, shorter rifle and barrel lends to greater success in MY shooting. I can get through barricade stages, car stages, and many others quicker from not having to move that 16" extra inches in and out of ports.

There is no argument possible that will take away from the fact that you remove barrel length you lose velocity. My point is that it is not as dramatic as people think in the real world, and you gain some advantages with less length. Other wise wouldn't we all be running around with 36" or longer barrels?

<span style="font-weight: bold">For me, this is just great discussion. I don't feel any argument or "challenge". I think it's contributing to all of our learning.</span>

I am happy you feel this way. Often times in written format it is difficult to tell another's tone. Mine is the same, learning.

 

[Rob01]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

Mike pretty much covered it. I have neither the time or desire to argue on the internet any longer.

I personally don't care what anyone uses but will give my opinion from being one of the first people to ever use this cartridge in competition, having more than a few 1st place finishes and even more top 5 and top 10s in major national matches, having our sponsor Hornady buy our first barrels for our rifles and from shooting it over 4 years in national competitions. Take my advice for what it's worth. Free advice on the internet.

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

I just got bored with the round and moved on.

Back when 6.5 Creedmoor brass was unavailable Hornady stepped in and gave me 1,000 brass/140s

Then gave the Sin City Crew about 400 to 600 pieces of the brass to keep them going.

To this day I have 400 rounds loaded up in new cases.
Someday I may pick the round back up.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

22.5" @ 2825fps 140gr AMAX. That'll do nicely sir.

I don't know the physics behind it or anything else, but a guy who does told me and that's good enough for me while I figure out my ass from my elbow.

 

[Mike]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length



<span style="font-weight: bold"> I don't think top shooters have that sheep attitude.</span>

Nor would I accuse them of being sheep. However, your below statement proves my point.

<span style="font-weight: bold">But what you omit is that the guys like Animal and Terry Cross, George, etc. are doing the experimentation for them. Then why would I repeat his experiments? </span>

While I can see how this statement validates your point, it also validates mine. You are taking another's (no matter the level of expertise) point of view and adopting it rather than trying out what works best for you.

<span style="color: #3366FF">But where do you draw the line? There has to be a point where continued testing becomes moot and unnecessary. I don't need to run my Mercedes into a wall to know Mercedes-Benz has performed safety tests. Much of it comes down to credibility. And I'm not sure what you mean "works out best"? Are you talking about ergonomics? Costs? Performance?</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Didn't you say "forget about Quickload" earlier in this thread? If so, then where are you getting these numbers? </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Well, I can guarantee you that 6" of #7 barrel contour doesn't weigh 10 lbs. I can also guarantee you that no positional shooter is holding their arm straight out horizontal to shoot positional so I'm not sure what your point is? 6" of barrel is a maybe a pound or two at best.</span>

Of course it doesn't weigh 10 pounds. My point is that cantilevered weight is exponentially heavier the further out, and that every ounce in positional shooting counts on your fatigue. This is one reason different size boxers use different weight of gloves.

<span style="color: #3366FF">Absolutely. But we're not talking about 15 3-minute rounds. We are talking about 3 minutes at a time. We can all take a half a pound extra weight for three minutes. Does it make a difference? It can, but I would let the benefits offset the extra weight.</span>

I shoot a DTA. Due to 6" less of barrel, and 10" less of rifle length my rifle feels lighter in positional stages. All the guys that I shoot with freely admit that I have an advantage in this area.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Is this psychological?</span>

No see above. My rifle is the same weight as others, but not so long. That equates to less cantilevered weight. However, this argument over positional (which I brought up) is detracting from the reason I prefer the shorter barrel. A lighter, shorter rifle and barrel lends to greater success in MY shooting. I can get through barricade stages, car stages, and many others quicker from not having to move that 16" extra inches in and out of ports.

<span style="color: #3366FF">I understand and this comes down solely to personal preference and that's what needs to be understood. There are sacrifices to be made and what those sacrifices are come down completely to personal preference for the individual shooter. For me, being very tall, a long barrel is not an issue, nor is a small, additional weight.</span>

There is no argument possible that will take away from the fact that you remove barrel length you lose velocity. My point is that it is not as dramatic as people think in the real world, and you gain some advantages with less length. Other wise wouldn't we all be running around with 36" or longer barrels?

<span style="color: #3366FF">I can agree with this for the most part. But again, we want as much fair advantage as possible.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">For me, this is just great discussion. I don't feel any argument or "challenge". I think it's contributing to all of our learning.</span>

I am happy you feel this way. Often times in written format it is difficult to tell another's tone. Mine is the same, learning.

 

[fireguyty]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="color: #3366FF">I understand and this comes down solely to personal preference and that's what needs to be understood. There are sacrifices to be made and what those sacrifices are come down completely to personal preference for the individual shooter. </span>
</div></div>

Yes sir! Couldn't agree more.

My other point, that has nothing to do with competitions. Is that for what ever reason, there is a lot of people out there that blindly think that the only rounds that perform well in short barrels are 223, and 308. Then you have a bunch of internet parrots that echo that statement with no actual first hand knowledge of that or have even shot the round.

This is also simply not the case IMO. 6.5 Creedmoor, and a host of other cartridges do just fine in short barrels. A good example is the new trend of people shooting 18" 338 Lapua Magnum. That example is definitely not for me, but it does work very well.

Ty

 

[264Charlie]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

18" 338L? Wow, now that's just silly.

 

[B3dlam]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

I think I will go ahead and stick with the 26" barrel I had origionally considered. I am a big guy and have no issue running a heavy gun I recently shot a competition lugging a 16-17lb beast of an AR and had no issues. Ultimatelly I think a bullpup like the DTA may balance better offhand but that being said a heavy gun isnt necesarrily an issue as long as you are utilizing proper bone support if you are attempting to hold a heavy rifle up with muslce strength alone the weight is going to be an issue but that is the case if its an 8lb hunting rifle or a 16 lb monster proper shooting technique and utizling bone support can definitely make supproting a nice heavy gun far less dreadful still may not be super comfortable but your already shooting a less then ideal position so I expect a little discomfort. Thanks a lot for the input guys barrel shipped today and action should ship by the end of the week then off to the smith with the lot of it.

 

[ost]

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor barrel length

I have an 18.5" barrel on mine. I am seeing 2550 with 140gr.

 

[calz]

I know a couple people that still reference this thread, and I had some empirical data I thought might help others trying to figure this out. Essentially one of my closest friends has two Surgeon rifles chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor, and he has tried out a 26" barrel as well as a 22" barrel (both with the same heavy MTU contour and rifle setup). He has fired both guns 1,000+ rounds and shot over his Oehler 35P chronograph regularly. It is really a pretty great experiment, and I thought others might like to know what we found.

• 26" Barrel: 2860 fps - This is what he was getting after 1,200 rounds (no suppressor)
  
• 22" Barrel: 2805 fps - This is what he was getting after 800 rounds (no suppressor)
  
• 22" Barrel w/ Suppressor: 2833 fps - This is what the was getting after adding a 30P-1 suppressor made by Thunder Beast Arms.
  

Overall he only lost 55 fps after cutting off 4" of barrel, and after adding a suppressor it cut that to only 27 fps. That is only 2/10 of a mil (2 clicks) at 1,000 yards. He couldn't be more happy with that trade.

I wrote a blog post with more complete details. If anyone is interested, you can check it out here:

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/07/16/6-5-creedmoor-barrel-length-and-muzzle-velocity/

 

[dlouie87]

Why aren't there many recommendations for 23'' lengths? Seems like most are going with a 24''-26'' for matches.

 

[Pusher591]

I'm going with 23" for a build now. I'll post results around September. It will be a 23" finished length Bartlein that has been Melonited.

For what it's worth, I had a 21" Rock Creek that would turn 2800 fps velocities with factory 140 Amax, dope confirmed on multiple, multiple occasions.

 

[calz]

I'm going with 23" for a build now. I'll post results around September. It will be a 23" finished length Bartlein that has been Melonited.

For what it's worth, I had a 21" Rock Creek that would turn 2800 fps velocities with factory 140 Amax, dope confirmed on multiple, multiple occasions.

23" might be a great length. I think most people just go with 24" or 26" because that is what gunsmiths recommend. Most gunsmiths just haven't had any experience with other lengths. That is exactly what the guys at Surgeon told us. In fact, they were excited we were willing to try something else and wanted us to report back the muzzle velocities we ended up with.

The velocities we found seem to indicate the 22" isn't burning up all the H4350 powder (but might Varget or something a hair faster), so 23" might give you a better shot at burning closer to 100% of the powder. I know after seeing the velocity differences, I wouldn't buy a 26". It just isn't significant enough to justify the added weight of 3-4" of barrel, especially if you are going to hang a can off the front of it. I'd probably land closer to where you are talking about. Either 22" or 23" ... neither seems to be the wrong decision.

 

[KYS]

I have went 25" on my 6.5 Creed's and with a suppressor I am getting 2800-2830 depending on my suppressor usage. But those are custom loads from C4...
I usually go 26" with 6mm Creed.

 

[6MT]

I kind of went against the consensus. Mine is finished at 28”.

It’s a 1:8” Kreiger #11 (1.25”) straight pipe. Helps with a bit of velocity (2905fps). With 140gr Berger Hybrids, it reaches a mile (on a calm day). It’s just a distance target rifle since it is heavy.

 

[b6graham]

holy necro thread batman

i've run a 31" 6.5CM. 1.25" straight. it's heavy, fast and accurate

 

[acudaowner]

our 26'' can pretty easily hit 2880's or higher with the right powder like rl17 and hybid100v not too hard with h4350 or imr 4350 or 4451 6.5 stabla will also get you up there you just need more powder either I usually run between 2747 ish to 2800 with 5 different powders . I have seen people with faster loads and others with slower I like the slower end having only 600 yards to play on but with factory ammo 1k was like cheating with factory ammo running 2680's - 2747ish personally Id like to have 28'' Ive tried 26 and love it but 28 sounds better it's like everyone having amps that go to 10 but yours goes to 11 one more . lol

 

[264Charlie]

Asking out of curiosity. Why not a 30” barrel?

A lot has changed form 2013. Nowadays the community understands that watching trace is critical to match performance. We see a lot slower rounds running long barrels to keep velocity up (BRs, GTs, Dashers...). My personal preferred gun to practice with is a 22" 6 creed with a 7" can. Now for a match gun, I run a 24" barrel, short 419 can, 6 GT with 110 ATIPS. My favorite gun is a 20" 308 with a 9" can. They all have a place, guns should match what you are trying to do.