6.5 creedmoor dies

[Jcarpenter223]

Im green as can be when it comes to long range though I have been researching as much as I can. Ive ordered an optic but it was on backorder and wont be in till first week of February so in the meantime Im slowly getting the reloading components around. I have a forster ultra micro seating inboud via usps but the dilemma of which sizing die to get has brought up questions.

I have a friend that shoots prs and while he liked his RPR he has warned me that I will eventually get a new barrel for it and then the next step will be full custom...which I dont disagree. I most likely will. This leads to the first question.

Assuming I go with a forster FL sizing die and have it honed by Forster to fit a round fired out of my RPR and have shoulder bumprd back, if I rebarrel it with a different 6.5cm barrel from say proof, lri etc etc, will that die yield less desirable results do to it being honed for the rpr factory barrel?

Another question...would a bushing style sizing die be the better option if I do change out barrels or go full blown custom rifle in the future?

If I do go with bushing style, is it almost necessary to turn the necks of my cases?

This is the first time Ill be spending a nice chunk of money on reloading dies since I want to do the 6.5cm justice and not cheap out on dies and expect 1/4 moa. Ive shot uspsa and 3 gun for years and always got by with lee dies but we werent shooting 1000yrds.

I appreciate all the help and look forward to some answers

 

[Milo 2.5]

Im green as can be when it comes to long range though I have been researching as much as I can. Ive ordered an optic but it was on backorder and wont be in till first week of February so in the meantime Im slowly getting the reloading components around. I have a forster ultra micro seating inboud via usps but the dilemma of which sizing die to get has brought up questions.

I have a friend that shoots prs and while he liked his RPR he has warned me that I will eventually get a new barrel for it and then the next step will be full custom...which I dont disagree. I most likely will. This leads to the first question.

Assuming I go with a forster FL sizing die and have it honed by Forster to fit a round fired out of my RPR and have shoulder bumprd back, if I rebarrel it with a different 6.5cm barrel from say proof, lri etc etc, will that die yield less desirable results do to it being honed for the rpr factory barrel?

Another question...would a bushing style sizing die be the better option if I do change out barrels or go full blown custom rifle in the future?

If I do go with bushing style, is it almost necessary to turn the necks of my cases?

This is the first time Ill be spending a nice chunk of money on reloading dies since I want to do the 6.5cm justice and not cheap out on dies and expect 1/4 moa. Ive shot uspsa and 3 gun for years and always got by with lee dies but we werent shooting 1000yrds.

I appreciate all the help and look forward to some answers

A couple misconceptions in my book.
First, if you have a die honed, it will be in the neck, most likely to set neck tension on the bullet, has nothing to do with the diameter of the chamber neck. That die may transition well to the next barrel. It has more to do with the brass you are using.
2nd, on bushing dies, you choose whether you neck turn or not, < same for your honed reg die. There's many theories on this, I've ran bushing dies for almost 20 yrs and do not neck turn. Others swear by it.

 

[Freediver111]

A couple misconceptions in my book.
First, if you have a die honed, it will be in the neck, most likely to set neck tension on the bullet, has nothing to do with the diameter of the chamber neck. That die may transition well to the next barrel. It has more to do with the brass you are using.
2nd, on bushing dies, you choose whether you neck turn or not, < same for your honed reg die. There's many theories on this, I've ran bushing dies for almost 20 yrs and do not neck turn. Others swear by it.

Agree, it’s more setting the tension on the bullet rather than chamber.
I’m using a Redding bushing die, but doubt you’re going to see any significant difference between it and a Forster. I don’t then necks and use Lapua brass. So far so good.

 

[Jcarpenter223]

I really appreciate you both clearing up my misconceptions. I started reading more about runout and didnt know what that meant so then started researching about that and just started to get spun around. Ha. Again I appreciate it. Sounds like id be good to go with the honed forster.

I have 50 cases of starline brass and will use that to learn more about the loading part and eventually get a couple hundred rounds of lapua brass.

 

[Jcarpenter223]

So does the resizing die also bump back the shoulder?

 

[Freediver111]

Do you have a Hornady headspace comparator? I would highly recommend one to allow you set the gauge to bump it two thousands to preserve brass life.

 

[Jcarpenter223]

Do you have a Hornady headspace comparator? I would highly recommend one to allow you set the gauge to bump it two thousands to preserve brass life.

I dont yet. I know Ill need one so I know how much to set the die at and bump the proper amount.

 

[Freediver111]

Oh, and I also really like my Redding competition seating die set.

 

[spife7980]

So does the resizing die also bump back the shoulder?

Depends on the die, but pretty much, yeah.

A traditional full length die sizes the entire length of the case, base, shoulders, neck all in the same process.
A body die will only do the base and shoulders, it does not touch the neck.
A full length bushing die is like the body in that with the bushing removed its a body die. Add in a bushing and it will work the neck as well. You can just swap bushing to control the amount the neck gets sized down.

All three of those will change the amount the base and shoulders are sized depending on how far you screw it into the press. Thats where the comparators for your calipers come in handy, it lets you know how much youre actually sizing instead of just guessing.

A neck die only sizes the neck, the base and shoulders remain untouched.


I would just get the forster normal as it comes. You might not need to have it honed at all, I didnt for my one forster sizer, it came to the spec I would have had it honed for so no need to waste the 12 bucks plus I got it for cheaper at brownells with a coupon than if I had went straight through forster.

I prefer the reddings personally though. The type s full length bushing die is sweet and I think their micrometer competition seater is the best there is of the commonly available dies. Its all personal preference though, stick with it ling enough and youll have tried one of everything and developed a preference like everyone else on here


I would only turn the case necks if I had a tight necked chamber that required me to do so in order for the brass to even fit in the chamber. Most anything you can buy off the shelf, especially in creed, wont give you an issue so I wouldnt invest in turning equipment until you know what youre going to do with it and have an intention of using it. If you dont know then you 99.9% dont need it now.

 

[Jcarpenter223]

Man I really appreciate that. That all makes sense now. Im really trying to not buy every die out there but instead may just be delaying the inevitable. Hah

 

[Soulezoo]

I saw the thread title and thought the caliber was done for... tsk tsk

 

[Jcarpenter223]

I saw the thread title and thought the caliber was done for... tsk tsk

Gotta grab that attention someway. Lol

 

[Jcarpenter223]

A body die will only do the base and shoulders, it does not touch the neck.
A full length bushing die is like the body in that with the bushing removed its a body die. Add in a bushing and it will work the neck as well. You can just swap bushing to control the amount the neck gets sized down.

is it common for some to remove the bushing and body and shoulder resize a batch, then add the depriming stem and bushing to resize the neck and deprime at a later time?

 

[spife7980]

is it common for some to remove the bushing and body and shoulder resize a batch, then add the depriming stem and bushing to resize the neck and deprime at a later time?

No, what would be the point of that? Usually it’s a body die because they either use 1) a lee collet die to size the neck or 2) they bought the more expensive three die kit instead of the two die kit for the same end result.

A fired case will always expand to your chamber diameter, no sizing die will change that fact, it can only limit how it gets sized smaller.

For match chambers the fired dimensions could be very close to your sized dimensions, most saami spec chambers however allow the fired necks to expand .006" at least from the loaded neck diameter. You have to size the necks back down smaller than loaded diameter so that there is enough interference fit between the case and the bullet for the case to hold it securely. Because brass comes in different thicknesses the traditional full length dies are sized small so that even the thinnest brass someone could encounter would still be sufficiently sized. So that means the usual brass will be sized smaller than necessary, it’s not uncommon for the die to size brass down .010 under loaded neck diameter. That means a minimum of .016 total working of the brass from fired to minimum sized dimensions right there. Just like bending wire or a nail or a coat hanger eventually it will work enough to snap and break. Choosing a bushing can’t save you from the largest fired neck diameter, that depends on the reamer that cut your barrel chamber, but the bushing can save you from over sizing your brass downwards.

If you have turned necks you can use just a bushing die because it only needs to size down to your desired dimension and there are no discrepancies in the neck thickness that could get pushed to the inside. But because turning necks means that there is even more empty space that the fired brass expands to fill in a normal saami chamber you actually just increase the working of the brass.

To counter act the discrepancies in the brass thickness getting pushed inward on sizing down you have an expander ball. The fired necks are large enough for the expander ball to go inside of the neck freely but when the case is fully inserted into the die its neck gets squeezed down smaller above the expander ball sealing it inside. When you extract the case from the die the expander ball is now larger than the neck opening so the expander ball forces its way through and leave the neck that new expanded size. Because it is pushing from the inside out thosethicker areas will hopefully be moved to the outside leaving you a clean perfect circle on the inside to hold the bullet. Typically the expander balls are .002-.003 under your bullets diameter. That’s about how much interference fit/“neck tension” people typically have the best results with.


Brass is a metal and it has some elastic properties as well and plastic. The more times it gets fired the harder it gets. The harder it gets the more it wants to return to its prior shape. So when you size that body and shoulder back it won’t stay perfectly small, it will spring back larger a bit. Going back with that die a second time with the bushing installed then will still work it some, working of the brass leads to shorter case life. Double working it only does so even more. Sure you could screw the die up higher that second time to not touch but what’s the point? You’re doubling the work and number of pulls you make on that press for, well, nothing.

Now, if your bushing is only sizing it down to .002 under loaded diameter then the expander ball wont do anything for you, it will just slide along touching inside but not doing anything. So because it needs to exert force on the brass typically a bushing is selected that is .003-.004 under, that allows the expander to open it back up .001-.002" which should be enough working to move those thicknesses outwards.




You might hear someone mention mandrels for expanding the sized necks, that does the same thing as the expander ball but inside of dragging the ball up and out you force a mandrel down and inside in a second die/step. It should help leave the case necks straighter but thats not to say expander balls are lacking, they do a fine job I think, when you start with benchrest or higher level competition or just tinkering to fill time then look into it.

 

[tho98027]

Depends on brass you want to use. Some have different neck thickness. I believe the neck diameter of the 6.5 creed Forster die is .284. I had Forster hone the neck in mine to .287 and also shave .002 from the bottom of the die since it took excess Camover to bump the shoulder back. Seems like a common issue others have experienced as well. I use a Sinclair mandrel to open the brass inside neck to .262. Which roughly results in a .289 outside neck. Loaded round is about .291-.2915. I use lapua and some Hornaby brass. You could hone the neck to .289 and not use a mandrel or ball but I like to uniform the inside neck with a mandrel. Again depends on what brand of brass you are using.

 

[Jcarpenter223]

I cant begin to thank you all for the help. Clear explanations helped me practically visualize the process.

 

[Jcarpenter223]

Ordered the redding typs s die. Need to start looking at bushings now. Thanks all!

 

[spife7980]

What brass and bullet are you going with?

If you the have brass and a bullet you can seat one when the forster seater gets in and measure your loaded neck diameter.

If you’re using lapua it typically has .0015 difference from one side to the other. Some people are fine with that and use just a bushing with the expander removed. If you are fine with that (or turn necks so they are perfect <but don’t>) then measure the loaded round neck diameter with your calipers and select a bushing that is .002 smaller than that. Be aware that due to the spring back it might not actually do that .002 and could actually spring back to to only .0015-.001 under loaded diameter. Fortunately you can get the next bushing up or down depending on what your results are.

Some other brass can be really bad and have .002-.003 difference side to side. In that case or just to be sure you can take the loaded neck diameter and subtract .003-.004 for the bushing and keep the expander ball installed which will open it back up.

It really all depends on what your components add up to.

Example: .264 bullet diameter + .014 neck thickness + .014 other side neck thickness = .288 diameter of your loaded round. (You can just measure this though without measuring independently)
.288-.004=.284 bushing with expander installed.

 

[Jcarpenter223]

Ive currently got starline brass and 100 130g hornady.

I do want to try 140g hornady and use lapua brass

 

[Jcarpenter223]

May be a stupid question but sometimes they have to be asked by the rookie. The wilson case length gauge a smart purchase or is there a company that makes better ones?

 

[spife7980]

May be a stupid question but sometimes they have to be asked by the rookie. The wilson case length gauge a smart purchase or is there a company that makes better ones?

Some people swear by the wilson gauge but I like just a simple set of comparators on my calipers.

The wilson gauge tells you if all measurements pass saami spec or if one thing fails. It doesnt tell you which dimension failed and it doesnt tell you what all the actual measurements are.

The headspace comparators install on your calipers. You can use just the plain calipers to measure your diameters before and after and you can use the comparator to measure your shoulder measurement.

Because the shoulders are a sloped surface you need a consistent way to measure them the same each time. To do so you use a datum, essentially a plane that contacts the same place all the way around the case. You choose a bushing that has the correct diameter hole in it to hit midway on your shoulders, because that hole in the bushing is is fixed the shoulders will settle in evenly all the way around to the same spot each case.

Most cases use a .400 hole, 223 is smaller with a .350, mags are larger etc., which comparator bushing you use depends on the case youre measureing. Hornady puts a slight chamfer on it and sinclair actually makes theirs match the cases shoulder angle and these can vary slightly between batches or case etc so your comparator measurements cant be compared directly to someone elses. These arent absolute measurements. They are relative to your equipment and your processes and thats all that really matters. So long as you use your tools for your measurements you will be just fine.

So that shoulder measurement is what we refer to when we say we push the shoulders back .001-.002 in a bolt gun and .003-.004 in a semi.

In that same red case body you can also install a bullet comparator to measure your bullet seating based on the ogive. Its basically the same thing only diameters for bullets instead of cases.

The tips of bullets can vary wildly, measuring closer to the bullets bearing surface is much more consistent and is actually more accurate for what we are measuring which is where the bullet interfaces with the barrels rifling.

Technically the ogive is the entire curve of the bullet.

When we reloaders use the term we are talking about the curvy part real close to the cylinder/bearing surface.

A 6.5 bullet will measure .264" in diameter which matches the bore but the lands of the rifling ramps up to a smaller .258" to cut into the bullet so that it can hold onto the bullet in order to spin it.

The hole in the bullet comparator will measure .260, that puts it right about where the bullet will first touch the rifling/lands.

(I realize this isnt exactly to scale and as-drawn would never obdurate enough to seal off the bore, its just a simple demonstration)

So I like the horandy tools because it allows you to take all of those measurements on your own stuff. Its easier to replicate your ammo from one loading session to the other if you know what you were actually loading.

 

[Jcarpenter223]

Man this makes so much sense. You saved me from spending money on stuff i really dont want which is why i originally made this post. I want to take the money i would spend on non essential items and buy the ones that will allow me more control over my rounds. Thank you for the patience and help to everyone.

 

[Tim_WNC]

Man this makes so much sense. You saved me from spending money on stuff i really dont want which is why i originally made this post. I want to take the money i would spend on non essential items and buy the ones that will allow me more control over my rounds. Thank you for the patience and help to everyone.

So....help out a dyslexic brother that gets lost in the analysis paralysis...what did your equipment list end up being? What IS actually on your bench oron the way now in the way of dies and comparators/measuring tools?

 

[Jcarpenter223]

So....help out a dyslexic brother that gets lost in the analysis paralysis...what did your equipment list end up being? What IS actually on your bench oron the way now in the way of dies and comparators/measuring tools?

Inbound: redding type s busing sizing die minus the bushing (sold separately)

Forster ultra micro seating

Hornady comparator minus the insert for 6.5

Still need to buy: bullet insert for conparator

Headspace bushing for comparator

Oal gauge

Scales

Thats off the top of my head

 

[Jcarpenter223]

Got the dies, and oal gauge. Bullet comparator insert should be here in tje morning.

Still need the headspace bushing and die bushings. I may get a few of those just to cover some variances in brass i get. Ready to get this started. Thanks to everyone who helped!