Gunsmithing 6.5 Creedmoor Issues - Randy Selby via YouTube

[Acer76]

Anyone seen this old video on YouTube? I’d watched it years ago and was recently reminded of his concerns.

Randy Selby on 6.5CM Problems

He’s basically expressing concerns about inconsistencies in brass and chamber sizing as a result of differences from manufacturers to smiths to handloaders, etc.

Check it out and please share any informed perspective on his comments.

I can’t remember seeing much more on these issues. I certainly have no doubts of Mr. Selby and am very curious to know what this community has to say.

 

[rockmyglock]

3.5 minutes in and I’ve learned that he bought a bad reamer and used a small sampling of brass from eight years ago.

At 7 minutes in, I have learned about the conspiracy to suppress the truth about 6.5 factory rifles not being able to chamber factory ammunition and how “the gun rags” won’t tell the truth that he is telling.

There was some more information in there too, about how I could buy what he was selling.

 

[Supersubes]

3.5 minutes in and I’ve learned that he bought a bad reamer and used a small sampling of brass from eight years ago.

At 7 minutes in, I have learned about the conspiracy to suppress the truth about 6.5 factory rifles not being able to chamber factory ammunition and how “the gun rags” won’t tell the truth that he is telling.

There was some more information in there too, about how I could buy what he was selling.

That was pretty much my take on it. Lol

 

[Ledzep]

Been a minute since I watched that video but here's what I remember from it... Iirc total headspace tolerance for 6.5cm cases on the SAAMI print is .007". It's impossible to my knowledge to draw bottleneck rifle cases without 3+ annealing cycles (unless you want longitudinal cracks down the length upon firing). The anneal oxidation is washed off on most commercial brass.

If there was a hint of anything being out of whack in the slightest, places like this could be heard yelling about it from miles away... Not sure who pissed in this guy's Cheerios but I'd guess he's got a grudge?

 

[Hundo]

What is it with the 6.5CM conspiracy theories...Don't get it.

 

[Kadams1563]

Oh you know since it’s a god killer. You pullnthe trigger and it doesn’t only guide itself to the targets it rings the steel extra loud so you can hear it for miles.

I heard it’s the only caliber you can hunt unicorns with.

 

[b6graham]

the comments are GOLD

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Randy has forgotten more about building a good rifle than most smiths will ever know. He is near Cody, WY. Go say hello to the man. He is actually pretty good and keeps his shit wired tight. BTW, he starts right off admiring the 6.5CM (for what it is) in the video posted by the OP. There has been ample time on the Hide with people crying about some fucked up 6.5CM by a new more exciting gun builder/celebrity type since this thread started. I am a little surprised that he has a YouTube channel. I would have preferred he stayed with Custer, sort of speak, in a good way.

Now for something completely different...

 

[Long Range 338]

Because he is an older smith and advocates for enough energy on target as it relates to big game hunting he seems to disdain the 6.5CM. From viewing his other videos he also thinks all things Hornady are hype (some of this could be true).
I enjoy different perspectives and think he makes some good points while I don’t agree with all of them, I respect his experience and voice. If taken from a hunting rifle perspective his views are well justified. From a precision rifle perspective not as much so.

 

[isofahunter]

^^^
Agree 100%. He has the experience it is worth listening to him. I find myself in agreement 99% of the time.

 

[Ledzep]

Randy is a mix of master of the obvious and closed-minded fudd. The master of the obvious stuff is common sense and most can agree with. I can buy into the idea that ignorant untrained folks straight out of cabelas with their new RAR in 6.5 shouldn't be taking pot-shots at 500yd at elk (duh). But don't buy that NOBODY is capable of killing an elk at 300-400yd with a 6.5 Creedmoor, or further with appropriate calibers. Many things in the 6.5cm and 300 PRC videos are factually wrong, or misleading IMO.

Verify his (and others') claims before you go touting it yourself.

 

[Steel head]

I saw a video he did about long range hunting.
I’m pretty much in total agreement with him on that.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I thought he was retired to tell the truth.

 

[Long Range 338]

Randy is a mix of master of the obvious and closed-minded fudd. The master of the obvious stuff is common sense and most can agree with. I can buy into the idea that ignorant untrained folks straight out of cabelas with their new RAR in 6.5 shouldn't be taking pot-shots at 500yd at elk (duh). But don't buy that NOBODY is capable of killing an elk at 300-400yd with a 6.5 Creedmoor, or further with appropriate calibers. Many things in the 6.5cm and 300 PRC videos are factually wrong, or misleading IMO.

Verify his (and others') claims before you go touting it yourself.

His target audience is the hunting crowd, specifically the long range hunting crowd. The 6.5CM can absolutely be used to take game but the majority of hunters taking the field are not great shooters. Like the jackass behind the counter at the last Sportsman’s Warehouse I went into who told me he shoots 1.5” groups at 1000 yards. The 6.5 CM is touted as a laser miracle cartridge that instantly kills on contact. Capable individuals are not out touting this type of mentality.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I have a lot of respect for him and his rifle building. I wanted a heavy R700 in .300 H&H and he was able to do it. It is the most accurate rifle in my collection. Nothing pretty just a straight up rifle based on the limited budget I gave him.

 

[Steel head]

His target audience is the hunting crowd, specifically the long range hunting crowd. The 6.5CM can absolutely be used to take game but the majority of hunters taking the field are not great shooters. Like the jackass behind the counter at the last Sportsman’s Warehouse I went into who told me he shoots 1.5” groups at 1000 yards. The 6.5 CM is touted as a laser miracle cartridge that instantly kills on contact. Capable individuals are not out touting this type of mentality.

Lol

How long were European hunters dropping moose with 6.5x55 and 260?
A long time.

Within reasonable ranges all the moderate 6.5’a are awesome if you do your part and obviously that includes the Creedmoor.

I’ve hit coyotes at 1000+ yards with my 260.
Most of the time it’s not dramatic like a hit at 300-400 yards.

I absolutely love deer and elk and respect them.
Unless I was absolutely desperate for food I’d never attempt the shenanigans I do with coyotes on deer or elk.

 

[Long Range 338]

Lol

How long were European hunters dropping moose with 6.5x55 and 260?
A long time.

Within reasonable ranges all the moderate 6.5’a are awesome if you do your part and obviously that includes the Creedmoor.

I’ve hit coyotes at 1000+ yards with my 260.
Most of the time it’s not dramatic like a hit at 300-400 yards.

I absolutely love deer and elk and respect them.
Unless I was absolutely desperate for food I’d never attempt the shenanigans I do with coyotes on deer or elk.

I agree completely that the 6.5 cartridges are capable, I don't think most hunters are...

 

[Ledzep]

His target audience is the hunting crowd, specifically the long range hunting crowd. The 6.5CM can absolutely be used to take game but the majority of hunters taking the field are not great shooters. Like the jackass behind the counter at the last Sportsman’s Warehouse I went into who told me he shoots 1.5” groups at 1000 yards. The 6.5 CM is touted as a laser miracle cartridge that instantly kills on contact. Capable individuals are not out touting this type of mentality.

That's fair enough, but the problems he states with the 6.5 creedmoor are isolated incidents, not an epidemic problem with the cartridge/chambering. It's presented as a grand conspiracy that Hornady is putting out a bunch of hype and delivering a sub-par product with fundamental issues. If I had to take a guess, PTG cut him an out of spec reamer and that's the source of most of the problems.

Headspace dimensions on the SAAMI print call out a .007" tolerance so his claim of .007" variance don't necessarily mean anything is out of spec-- if anything accounts for a single lot of cases. He claims to know about the machines that make cases but also claims that Hornady isn't making their own cases because the anneal was or was not acid washed off. You simply can't make bottleneck cases without annealing the brass between draws/sizing operations. You can see this same change between batches of 6.5 SAUM brass... Doesn't mean there's a conspiracy of manufacturer.

A huge aspect that Randy misses with the Creedmoors and PRC's is the fact that SAAMI spec chambers are geared for both accuracy and functionality. You get increased accuracy in factory production rifles and ammunition-- for most of is we don't care because we can get a reamer made to whatever spec (throat/neck and/or body geometry) we want, but it does advance the capability of those on a budget or those who don't want to go the custom route and that's important to keep in mind. So when he says a 300 Wby does the same thing a 300 PRC does.... IMO it's not the whole picture. Sure, the speeds are similar, but you can't seat ELD/VLD bullets at mag length in the Wby, and you can bet that the PRC chamber is going to lend itself more towards accuracy than the factory Wby chamber.

Can you get a custom 300 wby reamer made and achieve the same level of precision with a match barrel? Sure. But in the realm of buying factory rifles, where's the hype in a match-grade chamber by default and $45/box .300 magnum match/precision hunting ammo. Look at factory 300 wby ammo pricing......

There's also some other considerations that Randy overlooked in the way of efficient powder burn, case capacity fill, etc...

 

[Long Range 338]

That's fair enough, but the problems he states with the 6.5 creedmoor are isolated incidents, not an epidemic problem with the cartridge/chambering. It's presented as a grand conspiracy that Hornady is putting out a bunch of hype and delivering a sub-par product with fundamental issues. If I had to take a guess, PTG cut him an out of spec reamer and that's the source of most of the problems.

Headspace dimensions on the SAAMI print call out a .007" tolerance so his claim of .007" variance don't necessarily mean anything is out of spec-- if anything accounts for a single lot of cases. He claims to know about the machines that make cases but also claims that Hornady isn't making their own cases because the anneal was or was not acid washed off. You simply can't make bottleneck cases without annealing the brass between draws/sizing operations. You can see this same change between batches of 6.5 SAUM brass... Doesn't mean there's a conspiracy of manufacturer.

In total agreement here with you. With the entry of other brass manufacturers like Lapua and Peterson the brass is a non issue.

A huge aspect that Randy misses with the Creedmoors and PRC's is the fact that SAAMI spec chambers are geared for both accuracy and functionality. You get increased accuracy in factory production rifles and ammunition-- for most of is we don't care because we can get a reamer made to whatever spec (throat/neck and/or body geometry) we want, but it does advance the capability of those on a budget or those who don't want to go the custom route and that's important to keep in mind. So when he says a 300 Wby does the same thing a 300 PRC does.... IMO it's not the whole picture. Sure, the speeds are similar, but you can't seat ELD/VLD bullets at mag length in the Wby, and you can bet that the PRC chamber is going to lend itself more towards accuracy than the factory Wby chamber.

Can you get a custom 300 wby reamer made and achieve the same level of precision with a match barrel? Sure. But in the realm of buying factory rifles, where's the hype in a match-grade chamber by default and $45/box .300 magnum match/precision hunting ammo. Look at factory 300 wby ammo pricing......

There's also some other considerations that Randy overlooked in the way of efficient powder burn, case capacity fill, etc...

I also agree here as well. He is technically correct that the same performance can be had from other cartridges but he leaves out the magazine length issue as you stated. The 300 PRC does have a couple of issues to overcome in that the 300 NM has the performance edge and support from other manufacturers. Once there are a couple of factory loadings from different manufacturers the 300 PRC could be a runaway success.

It seems there is an old chip on his shoulder concerning Hornady and their bullets. In one video he dishes out the hate pretty hard for the ELDX bullets and in discussions on the 6.5CM, 6.5PRC, and 300PRC he states other cartridges match or outperform the Hornady voodoo. Hornady has done some great things and they surely deserve their current success.

 

[Steel head]

That's fair enough, but the problems he states with the 6.5 creedmoor are isolated incidents, not an epidemic problem with the cartridge/chambering. It's presented as a grand conspiracy that Hornady is putting out a bunch of hype and delivering a sub-par product with fundamental issues. If I had to take a guess, PTG cut him an out of spec reamer and that's the source of most of the problems.

Headspace dimensions on the SAAMI print call out a .007" tolerance so his claim of .007" variance don't necessarily mean anything is out of spec-- if anything accounts for a single lot of cases. He claims to know about the machines that make cases but also claims that Hornady isn't making their own cases because the anneal was or was not acid washed off. You simply can't make bottleneck cases without annealing the brass between draws/sizing operations. You can see this same change between batches of 6.5 SAUM brass... Doesn't mean there's a conspiracy of manufacturer.

A huge aspect that Randy misses with the Creedmoors and PRC's is the fact that SAAMI spec chambers are geared for both accuracy and functionality. You get increased accuracy in factory production rifles and ammunition-- for most of is we don't care because we can get a reamer made to whatever spec (throat/neck and/or body geometry) we want, but it does advance the capability of those on a budget or those who don't want to go the custom route and that's important to keep in mind. So when he says a 300 Wby does the same thing a 300 PRC does.... IMO it's not the whole picture. Sure, the speeds are similar, but you can't seat ELD/VLD bullets at mag length in the Wby, and you can bet that the PRC chamber is going to lend itself more towards accuracy than the factory Wby chamber.

Can you get a custom 300 wby reamer made and achieve the same level of precision with a match barrel? Sure. But in the realm of buying factory rifles, where's the hype in a match-grade chamber by default and $45/box .300 magnum match/precision hunting ammo. Look at factory 300 wby ammo pricing......

There's also some other considerations that Randy overlooked in the way of efficient powder burn, case capacity fill, etc...

Can’t argue with anything here.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Zep he is just saying it is no better than something like the .260 Rem for example and he doesn't seem impressed with all the hype is all. I shot a 22-250 Saturday and made note it did better than five out of seven 6.5CM out to 500 meters. They are not target magnets as the man said. The 6.5CM is probably the best marketed cartridge in history. That can't be done with a lot of hype considering the .260 has been around for decades. The 6.5CM campaign increased profits and there is no denying that considering there are other choices that are just as good at ballistics. But, realistically, for killing it is already obsolete with the 131 .25 bullet on the market and other new work in the making. Of course, for factory ammo the 6.5CM is today's cat's meow as far as prices go. So, of course a factory shooter is going to be drawn to it.

 

[Steel head]

Zep he is just saying it is no better than something like the .260 Rem for example and he doesn't seem impressed with all the hype is all. I shot a 22-250 Saturday and made note it did better than five out of seven 6.5CM out to 500 meters. They are not target magnets as the man said. The 6.5CM is probably the best marketed cartridge in history. That can't be done with a lot of hype considering the .260 has been around for decades. The 6.5CM campaign increased profits and there is no denying that considering there are other choices that are just as good at ballistics. But, realistically, for killing it is already obsolete with the 131 .25 bullet on the market and other new work in the making. Of course, for factory ammo the 6.5CM is today's cat's meow as far as prices go. So, of course a factory shooter is going to be drawn to it.

Before long oal AI mags Creedmoor did kinda have a point and it still makes sense in AR’s.

It never offered enough for me to jump ship from my beloved 260.

Factory ammo choice and cost really is it’s only superiority over 260 but now with prime, Berger and FGMM 260 has legit factory ammo choices

 

[Tokay444]

That’s a Fudd smith.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Because he is a hundred and five years old.

 

[Edds]

I am envious of anyone that has the ability to watch one of those videos without taking a break at 3 minute intervals.