6.5 Creedmoor load development?

[swkylberg]

Reloading gurus please advise... I have a load using 41.9 grains of IMR4350 that is a hammer but I would rather use H4350 so here is what I have so far. All are 3 rounds @ 100 yards.

All are loaded @ a COAL of 2.860" which is where my IMR loads cut a 5 round ragged hole.

I'm going to leave my opinion out of it in order to not sway anyone's thoughts.

I would sure appreciate any input.


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[Pusher591]

If you know you threw a shot on thet 42.3 then that would be my load. I would definitely test it again. Elevation is identical it seems in all three rounds.

Really, you should test at 200-300 to see the difference, that's where you'll be able to tell the difference from a good load to an awesome load.

 

[swkylberg]

A little more info:

Brux M40 26" 1-8

Berger Hybdrid 140s


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[swkylberg]

Yeah Pusher, my plan was to run out to the farm & shoot'em @ 500 but it started pouring rain so I opted to use the local indoor 100 yard.


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[Mike402]

Agree with pusher 100%

One thing that I do which really aids in 100yd OCW testing is to use legal paper & small orange dot stickers from staples. Having the aiming points all on one plane makes it much easier to see the nodes. Plus its a lot cheaper than commercial targets, and you can keep them in a legal ringed binder for future review. Only downside is that once you get out to 300+ yards, the groups may start to overlap if the dots are spaced too closely together.

 

[Mike402]

Yeah Pusher, my plan was to run out to the farm & shoot'em @ 500 but it started pouring rain so I opted to use the local indoor 100 yard.


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Lucky you... I would kill to have access to an indoor 100 yard range!

 

[swkylberg]

Mike, this range is scary as hell... They rent firearms so people go in & off themselves on a regular basis. I get in & out as fast as possible & my head is on a swivel the whole time I'm in there.


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[swkylberg]

Btw Mike, I really like the 3 ring binder idea, it sure beats digging through a folder. Thanks!


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[shoot4fun]

Lucky you... I would kill to have access to an indoor 100 yard range!

Why? If you've ever been in any indoor range you should know the wind blows ALL the time there.

OP. I am with you. I would use the 41.7 grain load. It is in the middle of your accuracy node and should give the best results over a broader environmental range.
As far as switching to H4350, do you need to change because you are out of IMR4350 or do you feel there will be come magic advantage to the H4350?

 

[swkylberg]

The magic advantage is it's consistency throughout various temps which IMR lacks, to a certain degree. Pardon the pun.


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[Mike402]

Mike, this range is scary as hell... They rent firearms so people go in & off themselves on a regular basis. I get in & out as fast as possible & my head is on a swivel the whole time I'm in there.


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Yikes...that is scary. Definitely wouldn't want to work there

 

[Mike402]

Why? If you've ever been in any indoor range you should know the wind blows ALL the time there.

Not following this. Wind blowing in an indoor range? Are you talking about the A/C or swamp cooler systems? If so, at least it is consistent so it won't affect groups

 

[shoot4fun]

Yikes...that is scary. Definitely wouldn't want to work there

Do not be fooled. H4350 will change too. IMHO, as long as you're in the middle of the accuracy node the change should not have much effect on you.

 

[shoot4fun]

Not following this. Wind blowing in an indoor range? Are you talking about the A/C or swamp cooler systems? If so, at least it is consistent so it won't affect groups

And you are certainly welcome to believe that.

 

[Mike402]

And you are certainly welcome to believe that.

I've never been in an indoor range that goes past 25 yards. In all seriousness, I'd like to hear what your experiences are.

 

[shoot4fun]

The magic advantage is it's consistency throughout various temps which IMR lacks, to a certain degree. Pardon the pun.


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BTW, I have been very successful with a 6.5CM and 42.7 RL17 with the 142SMK. I've been shooting the caliber for about 6 years or so and that has always been my load. RL17 is supposed to be even more temp sensitive than IMR4350 but I have no problem making it work at 25 or 105 degrees.

 

[shoot4fun]

I've never been in an indoor range that goes past 25 yards. In all seriousness, I'd like to hear what your experiences are.

I have had access to a couple of 100 yard indoor ranges. watching targets move around a bit told me the air currents from A/C and ventilation systems are not consistent. Maybe it is due to your target not being on solid ground but hanging off a suspended holder? Air will most certainly change directions when/if there is another shooter on the range as well. Just my feeble ramblings though. I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from using one. They can be useful.
Best setup I have seen was a tunnel with a hole for the barrel to go thru, Kind of like what some ammo manufacturers use.

 

[Mike402]

I have had access to a couple of 100 yard indoor ranges. watching targets move around a bit told me the air currents from A/C and ventilation systems are not consistent. Maybe it is due to your target not being on solid ground but hanging off a suspended holder? Air will most certainly change directions when/if there is another shooter on the range as well. Just my feeble ramblings though. I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from using one. They can be useful.
Best setup I have seen was a tunnel with a hole for the barrel to go thru, Kind of like what some ammo manufacturers use.

Ok I stand corrected. Edit: I would kill to have my own personal tunnel range instead

 

[Aimsmall55]

I didn't read the entire thread , bit this is a question to a question. If its shooting in the same hole at 100 yards.... Wtf is the problem. I once had a problem... It was called "trying to improve things that did not need improvement ". After enough $$$ spent , time and bbl life wasted ... I said to my self " Holy Shit, the time I've spent chasing the perfect load to satisfy my OCD, I could have spent out in the range having fun" and the money spent on bullets and powder could have bought a new bbl plus some on the smithing. I'm not out to criticize the OCW method, as I see it as a very useful tool. But out of EVERY SINGLE RIFLE I have ever owned, the ones that shot "one ragged hole" at 100 yards were absolute hammers to whatever distance applicable for that particular round.
H4350 is not magical fairy dust , although some might argue its "more temp stable than IMR 4350". That may be true, but I've seen some HUGE mv changes with drastic temp changes and h4350.
I really don't want to come across as a jerk or a know it all, but I see it WAY TOO MUCH.... Guys who have loads the majority would kill for but think it needs to be improved.
Take it from me, get a pen, pad , and write down your dope at each range trip and ENJOY!!!

 

[Aimsmall55]

I should also mention welcome to the Hide.

 

[shoot4fun]

I must be right about not worrying over H4350 v. IMR4350.
Aimsmall55 agrees!
And you can really make a "mountain out of a molehill" if you just work at it.

 

[swkylberg]

My thoughts & the reason I strive for that ragged hole is because it makes me a better shooter... I don't want to be able to blame poor performance on anything but myself. I know the rifle is capable because I've shot 5 round ragged holes @ 100 & 4" diamonds @ 1,000. I know H4350 is not pixy dust, but I also know that it has been a little more forgiving in the extremes & I don't want to not have the best load possible because I was lazy & cheap. I also understand that this diatribe may be a feeble attempt to justify my OCD


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[shoot4fun]

My thoughts & the reason I strive for that ragged hole is because it makes me a better shooter... I don't want to be able to blame poor performance on anything but myself. I know the rifle is capable because I've shot 5 round ragged holes @ 100 & 4" diamonds @ 1,000. I know H4350 is not pixy dust, but I also know that it has been a little more forgiving in the extremes & I don't want to not have the best load possible because I was lazy & cheap. I also understand that this diatribe may be a feeble attempt to justify my OCD


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It's only about "ragged holes" if you're shooting bench rest matches.
Concentrate on basics like loading bipods, holding steady positions, knowing your range card, basic gun handling, etc.
These things would be good for your OCD......not to mention your shooting.

 

[mrbig]

I have shot a bunch of IMR 4350 in 25-06 and 300 Win mag and never had any major problems with it,,at one time everybody was using it instead of H4350,,Hodgdon did a good job marketing and advertising the H4350 Extreme powders,

 

[swkylberg]

Aimsmall, thanks for the welcome!


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[Aimsmall55]

[MENTION=1962]shoot4fun[/MENTION].... Sorry man... Didn't see your previous threads. Glad we can agree to AGREE!!

 

[Aimsmall55]

Aimsmall, thanks for the welcome!


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No problem!!

 

[swkylberg]

Took it out to 300 today. Wind was 11-15 FV with gusts to 19. Probably should have held out for calmer winds but decided to roll with it. Wind would not allow me to use chrono so unsure about speed but 42.4 - 42.6 are obviously faster than my 42.0 load of IMR 4350 (2810 fps).

Thoughts??

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[Aimsmall55]

41.8 looks pretty good

 

[Aimsmall55]

Another question, are you running a tight chamber, what action? Only reason I ask is my loads are at 2.800" (2.215 to ogive ) and they ( along with the vlds shoot better jumping. They absolutely will not shoot anywhere near as good loaded long. I've had the same load since I bought the rifle and only up'd the charge weight up .2 grains after 2,000 rounds to compensate for bbl wear and a lot more freebore. Other than that I'm running the 140 hybrid at 42.6 h4350. It was 42.4.

 

[swkylberg]

Remington 700 SA. Standard chamber. I shot the 41.9 of IMR4350 @ 2.800" to start. & worked my way out to 2.860" which is where I found my tightest groups. I am going to get out & shoot the 41.9 of IMR4350 & the 42.6 of H4350 head to head & see what happens. If the H4350 shoots as well or better, I will work my my back to see if I can get it to tighten up.


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[jboyright]

Curious as to what barrel lenght your running?! I'm in the process of working up a load development.. H4350 ,LR17 seems to be what everyone is telling me..

 

[swkylberg]

26"... A little longer than I really wanted but I went ahead and left a little room for a setback or 2


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[jboyright]

Im struggling a little with getting the right load for max fps. I had mine cut down to 20" MTU profile. Love the accuracy out of the shorter, stiffer barrels. However I'm starting to question my decision to go that short.

 

[jboyright]

Have you ever messed with tac?.there's no Load data on it from what I can see, however I use it in my 556 and it works great for a achieving High velocity with 77gr

 

[swkylberg]

Never tried Tac... I may be way off here, but have you tried Winchester 760. It burns a little fast for me but it might work out with your shorter barrel. The load that I worked up with the W760 was very accurate


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[jboyright]

Nope.. but worth a try! I'll have to look into it!

 

[rcamuglia]

Shoot a long range Audette Ladder. This one was with the 6.5 Creedmoor at 600 yards:





Huge node from 41.9 grains of H-4350 to 43.1. Chose the middle and load #5 which was 42.5 grains. Shot a group at another aimpoint on the same target:





That's a 2" total 4-shot group with one of the shots giving the group the measly 1" of vertical it has. Loaded 5 more at 42.5 and shot them at 100 yards to see if any seating depth changes needed to be made:





Doesn't look like it to me...

7 shots to find the load, 9 to confirm the load.

Does it get any easier with the OCW? LOL

 

[Jmilera]

Any of y'all using the 140 s with the 193 last three decimal lot of bullets, any help will be appreciated?
Thanks
Joe

 

[jboyright]

I'm shooting 140s serria matchkings.. my accuracy is awesome.. my velocity is just to slow.. at 400 yards I'm dialing 10moa and with my 308 with 175s I was only 8.25moa 20" barrel as well..the group's in the picture are 100yards with 140 Sierra's hodgdon H414 with 40.2 grains, CCI No.34 primers.

 

[rcamuglia]

I'm shooting 140s serria matchkings.. my accuracy is awesome.. my velocity is just to slow.. at 400 yards I'm dialing 10moa and with my 308 with 175s I was only 8.25moa 20" barrel as well..the group's in the picture are 100yards with 140 Sierra's hodgdon H414 with 40.2 grains, CCI No.34 primers. View attachment 41686

Shoot an Audette and continue up till you hit pressure. I used to use W-760 which is the same powder as H-414 with the 139 Scenar. You should actually be able to get more velocity than with H-4350. I was in the 2900 range up around 43 grains

 

[jboyright]

So how do I know when I have maxed the pressure?. I've never heard of a audette ladder test! What exactly is the process?

 

[jboyright]

Shoot an Audette and continue up till you hit pressure. I used to use W-760 which is the same powder as H-414 with the 139 Scenar. You should actually be able to get more velocity than with H-4350. I was in the 2900 range up around 43 grains

So how do I know when I have maxed the pressure?. I've never heard of a audette ladder test! What exactly is the process?

 

[jboyright]

Also what's your barrel lenght?

 

[rcamuglia]

26". Signs that you've hit some pressure are Sticky Bolt Lift, Ejector Mark on the Case Head, etc..

Go here for The Method
Ladder testing at 1k- Detailed article and video - Page 3 - Long Range Hunting Online Magazine

 

[shoot4fun]

Shot the 42.7 RL17 with 142 SMK load today. Temp was a little milder than a normal summer day here and humidity was fairly low. Wind was variable and switched a lot but most prevailing left to right. I dialed elevation at all distances 200, 300, 400, 500, 600 700 and 725 yards. Elevation dial ups were .3, 1, 1.7, 2.5, 3.3, 4, and 4.2 mils. All hits were first round until I got to 725 and that was a missed wind call. Once the wind was figured out I had three shots in about 2 1/2" on the steel. I had previously shot this one at a different range with quite different conditions and it was centered at 8.5 mils at 1000 yards. Five shot on 9x18 steel at that distance.
Now, looking back at notes, I had previously shot the RL17 load at the same 700 yard range when the temp was about 15 degrees warmer and much higher humidity. Scope at that time was NF NXS MOA turrets and my 700 yard data was 14.5 MOA. A fairly quick conversion, if I did the math correctly, shows 100.8" drop today vs. 101.5" drop from previous outing. That is telling me (maybe my feeble mind) that there isn't as much temp sensitivity in RL17 as we may have been led to believe. [MENTION=43855]Aimsmall55[/MENTION] I know you shoot a lot and maybe you can share some insight on that?

 

[Aimsmall55]

Shot the 42.7 RL17 with 142 SMK load today. Temp was a little milder than a normal summer day here and humidity was fairly low. Wind was variable and switched a lot but most prevailing left to right. I dialed elevation at all distances 200, 300, 400, 500, 600 700 and 725 yards. Elevation dial ups were .3, 1, 1.7, 2.5, 3.3, 4, and 4.2 mils. All hits were first round until I got to 725 and that was a missed wind call. Once the wind was figured out I had three shots in about 2 1/2" on the steel. I had previously shot this one at a different range with quite different conditions and it was centered at 8.5 mils at 1000 yards. Five shot on 9x18 steel at that distance.
Now, looking back at notes, I had previously shot the RL17 load at the same 700 yard range when the temp was about 15 degrees warmer and much higher humidity. Scope at that time was NF NXS MOA turrets and my 700 yard data was 14.5 MOA. A fairly quick conversion, if I did the math correctly, shows 100.8" drop today vs. 101.5" drop from previous outing. That is telling me (maybe my feeble mind) that there isn't as much temp sensitivity in RL17 as we may have been led to believe. [MENTION=43855]Aimsmall55[/MENTION] I know you shoot a lot and maybe you can share some insight on that?

Without a chronograph it's only speculative. But here's my thoughts .... It's only .7" in difference. There are so many factors that attribute to a bullets increase or decrease on it's drag. It could be ( and I'm not questioning your technique ) as simple as a different hold on the rifle. The .7" difference less drop with the 15 degree difference makes me think it was thinner air therefore giving you maybe a tad bit less mv but offsetting that by less drag on your bullet.
But as far as r17 goes, I have HEARD that its more temp stable than ANY Reloader powders and is actually manufactured by another company for ALLIANT. But we all know how that kind of stuff goes and it's only rumor to me personally. I have shot it a good bit out of my Creedmor and it was very accurate and FAST but I didn't do any in depth testing on fps/degree.
Another point on the powder, is that I've seen some powders ,like h4350 ,need a DRASTIC increase or decrease in temp to really notice any huge mv changes. For h4350 it was around 30 degrees Fahrenheit. It went from 2815 to 2738. But as to your poi being higher, like I said... It's all speculative. I just said what I thought could attribute. It's DEFINETLY not conclusive.

 

[shoot4fun]

Didn't mean for that to sound like I was calling you out.
I am only looking for real results from other shooters that I know shoot and document with the 6.5 CM.
I am with your observations on the Hodgdon Extreme line of powders. The big differences I have seen were not in higher temps but when temps dropped considerably.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Didn't mean for that to sound like I was calling you out.
I am only looking for real results from other shooters that I know shoot and document with the 6.5 CM.
I am with your observations on the Hodgdon Extreme line of powders. The big differences I have seen were not in higher temps but when temps dropped considerably.

No worries. I didn't take it that way at all. I need to change my statement on the increase or decrease with h4350. Your right, it was only decreased. Never saw a real "increase" with higher temps. That's unless somebody zeroed in at 10 degrees then started shooting in 60 to 70 degree temps. Lol. I'd say there'd be an increase.