Greg,
If you get a chance, give the new 90 gr Varmageddon's a try. 29.7-29.8 grains of IMR 8208 XBR. Very accurate. Same for their 123gr. version in 7.62.39. Most accurate 7.62x39 bullet I've found to-date for hand loading.
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6.5 Grendel more or less dead?
- Thread starter Lonehill
- Start date
If you get a chance, give the new 90 gr Varmageddon's a try. 29.7-29.8 grains of IMR 8208 XBR. Very accurate. Same for their 123gr. version in 7.62.39. Most accurate 7.62x39 bullet I've found to-date for hand loading.
Can do/will do. I'm also pretty sure that the 90gr TNT is going to respond well to load development.
But as of right now, the 95gr V-Max is working pretty well with 30.0gr of W748.
I made an arbitrary decision to limit my development to W748 after doing a lot of reading on the net about Grendel loads. It was a lot of wading, where guys ask for loads, and then get three pages of anything but loads. It's in the Hornady manual, seems to be a viable competitor for the 8208 and 335, and has occupied a place in my loading components for decades.
Also, FWIW, I'm in Cochise County, and am getting back into shooting 50mi S., down on the Border at the Douglas Municipal Shooting Park; covered lines, 300 meters.
Greg
But as of right now, the 95gr V-Max is working pretty well with 30.0gr of W748.
I made an arbitrary decision to limit my development to W748 after doing a lot of reading on the net about Grendel loads. It was a lot of wading, where guys ask for loads, and then get three pages of anything but loads. It's in the Hornady manual, seems to be a viable competitor for the 8208 and 335, and has occupied a place in my loading components for decades.
Also, FWIW, I'm in Cochise County, and am getting back into shooting 50mi S., down on the Border at the Douglas Municipal Shooting Park; covered lines, 300 meters.
Greg
I'll chrono and post results in the reloading section after I see what they do at distance.
Back to the point of the thread. I'm revisiting everything Grendel and having fun doing so.! Lots of new bullets to try (varmint, hunting and target), carbon fiber barrel, new optics, etc. Hardly a dead platform and still very flexible IMHO.
Back to the point of the thread. I'm revisiting everything Grendel and having fun doing so.! Lots of new bullets to try (varmint, hunting and target), carbon fiber barrel, new optics, etc. Hardly a dead platform and still very flexible IMHO.
That's not unusual.
I've said several times on this forum that my 12.5" shoots well with the cheap 100gr Wolf load, and a number of other people have commented the same. In my rifle at least, it does way better than I've ever seen from cheap Wolf 5.56 or 7.62x39.
I think this forum could popularize the caliber. I don't really see why anyone would pick the 224 over this do-almost-everything round.
As an owner of 2 6.5 Grendels, the 224 Valkyrie outpaces the Grendel with the heavy for caliber bullets in both drop and drift at long range. And, it is easier to find factory ammo for it.
I'm taking my match Grendel out today to make sure it's not dead. ?
I'm taking my match Grendel out today to make sure it's not dead. ?
Back around 2001, this forum latched onto the 260 Rem at a time when most manufacturers were phasing it out. While I have doubts about how much credit we could really claim for it, the chambering did experience a big resurgence starting shortly afterward. We were neither the first, nor the most effective.
It has been overshadowed by the 6.5CM, but I really have no good reason to switch. In some of the CM's popularity, I believe I'm seeing some excessive hype from the manufacturers seeing it as a new profit center. Being objective, the CM is just about precisely the 260's equal, and one simply cannot argue in the face of its current popularity.
The 6.5 Grendel is turning out to be a sweet chambering, even in my inexpensive AR's. I like it a lot and intend to see how far I can develop my own systems. My goals will be about taking advantage of the additional capability it brings to the AR-15 platform while staying within the performance and distance envelope of the 223/5.56. As in the past, I intend to do my work within the limitations of simpler, less expensive hardware.
There is some truly intriguing promise from the start. I'll be doing my own thing and sharing my outcomes with the rest of the forum.
As for any contention between Grendel and Valkyrie, I see them as nearly totally different approaches to very different questions, and not really all that comparable.
As for the course of the Grendel's future popularity, we can make a difference; but my own approach needs to be strictly about facts based upon actual demonstrations.
YMMV
Greg
It will live on through your purchase of the 224 Grendel! Please keep us posted on your results. Interested in this adaptation.
I'm taking this as a response to my comparison of the 260 and 6.5CM. What you say is quite true.
I would respond back that the 260 is used in my bolt gun only, and nearly exclusively single fed.
I believe that it has a small advantage in case capacity over the CM, and have also noticed no actual drawbacks from seating bullets deep enough to feed in the bolt gun magazine. I use less current bullets, like the 142SMK, and note that the 140SMK is still around, is shorter and more magazine friendly, and that I was able to get to 1Km very satisfactorily with it in a 24" barrel at Whittington in 2002.
I've put a nearly two decades of effort and equipment into the 260, and honestly, it does not appeal to me to be starting all of that all over a second time just to shoot a chambering that essentially duplicates something I'm already shooting.
I'm not looking to compare the 6.5 Grendel with the 6.5CM.
When I looked seriously into a 6.5 semi, I was looking essentially at the AR-10 platform, and the 260/6.5CM. I had an unbreakable bias toward the 260, and it just wasn't looking doable on any budget I would chose to afford.
I gave up, but still wanted that semi 6.5. It took my slow imagination quite some time to recognize that the Grendel was also a 6.5, would work very nicely in the AR-15 platform, and that I could buy creatively and own one for about 1/2 a K. It was mostly just a matter of looking at the issue obliquely.
I dove in. Repeatedly. Two AR-15's later, I've got a factory 20" Upper, and a homebuilt 24" Upper. I've put may main range effort into the 24" with preliminary and very limited results suggesting considerably under 1MOA performance at 100yd. Much further work looms on the near horizon.
For me, the 6.5 Grendel is becoming the UNDEAD.
Greg
Went wild boar hunting this weekend. I let a first time hunter borrow my 16" Grendel AR. Light, handy, etc. Bang, flop, dead with 120gr Barnes TTSX bullets. This is the 10th wild pig this Grendel has killed and none of them ran more than a few feet. Great balanced round with proven hunting ability. I truly hope the Grendel doesn't die. He's going to buy a Grendel upper for his AR now 
From what I've read, the Grendel gets mixed reviews related to hunting. Hard to say what's giving it the bad rap. Wrong bullet selection? Insufficient velocity for expansion? Watched a Barnes review on youtube last night. They seem to have constantly improved their products over the years.
Rootshot's results is definite proof of that.
Rootshot's results is definite proof of that.
Sure hope not, as I picked 6.5 Grendel for my lightweight/mountain deer rifle. That’s 6lbs 12ozs scoped with 5 in the mag btw.
Most of the issues I’ve seen/heard on the Grendel forum are from people going after big game from far out. Elk ran on you after you put a 123gr SST into him at 350yds? Yeahhhhhh...not enough gun for that in my book. Whitetail under 200? Enjoy the venison.
Agree with your observation about distance and animal size. Shooting an elk with a Grendel would be unwise. Largest animal I have taken was a over 300lb sow at 300 yards. That was marginal - it ran about 100 yards before it collapsed.
Maybe you guys that have experience with the Grendel can help me out. I had the Radical Firearms 24" upper, I know not the nicest upper, but seemed solid. I sold it to my dad but still reload for him. I seem to have a hard time getting correct head space, as I set up my Forstner dies and full length size to a few thousandths shorter then a once fired case, when I chamber an empty round after sizing I have to smack the charging handle to get it back out? Could the chamber have a slight burr or something that is making it tight or is the case not sizing correctly? Not trying to steal the OP's thread, just thought I would ask some experienced Grendel owners.
How many rounds down the barrel? I had the same observation when I first got my JP barrel. Starting with a closed SLR gas block, I had to give the charging handle more force than I expected to remove the spent cartridge. I haven't shot it with the gas closed off since I got the gas set for proper function so I don't know if it is still a thing. I assumed it was a function of a new chamber that needs to be polished out with use. But, I don't get the grendel-belted-mag case-effect that I have seen mentioned on a vendor's site so I'm not terribly concerned. That said, I always full length size to saami specs for auto-loaders.
I suggest you buy a case gauge: https://www.shopalexanderarms.com/Brass_Reloading-6_5_Grendel_Ammunition_Gauge_1.html Using one to set up dies and QA cases saves you a lot of frustration. If it fits in the gauge but a case still doesn't chamber cleanly, you may have a problem with the headspace of the rifle and I would send it back.
Also remember that brass strain hardens with repeated firings. You may have to adjust your dies even if they were perfect to accommodate for more brass "springback" on cases that have been fired multiple times.
Also remember that brass strain hardens with repeated firings. You may have to adjust your dies even if they were perfect to accommodate for more brass "springback" on cases that have been fired multiple times.
Some of the 6.5 bullets were designed for the 6.5x55 or 260 remington, they will not expand properly at the velocity the Grendel pushes them so they act like a FMJ and just poke a hole in game. People need to choose bullets that will open up at lower velocities or stop shooting 142gr bullets out of 12" Grendels.
What bullet would you recommend for a 12” barreled Grendel? Just received a new upper and about to start building a hunting load for 100yds or closer whitetail.
The 123 SST was designed for the Grendel. The 6.5mm Cavity Back bullets are premium solid copper bullets designed for the Grendel.
100gr Nosler, 100gr TTSX.
I use 1800fps as the threshold. If the bullet velocity drops below 1800 at whatever range I don't shoot past that range.
100gr Nosler, 100gr TTSX.
I use 1800fps as the threshold. If the bullet velocity drops below 1800 at whatever range I don't shoot past that range.
I have tested it that slow in various test media, but not on meat. As far as that goes, it seems to work as advertised. I did use it on deer last fall successfully, although impact velocity was probably around 1800 fps or a little more. It's a great Grendel bullet IMO.
My load is 31.1gr of Leverevolution at 2.295" for 2,225 fps from my 12.5" barrel. Work up to that carefully of course, but it's not giving any high pressure signs in my gun. It does make the rifle a bit overgassed compared to my standard load of 123 ELDM with 8208; I use a Bootleg carrier and turn it down one click for the ABLR load.
BTW most other typical Grendel powders with this bullet ran into compression problems before max pressure, and the thin jacket on this bullet doesn't handle a lot of compression very well. Lever stood head and shoulders above other powders for this particular bullet and cartridge combo.
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When you're measuring a fired case, have you punched out the primer? Measuring on a fired primer can give a flawed reading that is too long. Any ejector burrs on the case head can do the same thing. Use the shortest measurement you can get from your fired brass(i.e. not over the ejector burr if there is one, and not over a fired primer) and measure several cases.
Try setting your die back another couple thousandths, and measure a bunch of your sized brass. As someone else pointed out, some brass springs back more than others, so you might have some that just isn't sized enough. If that's the case, it's probably time to anneal.
Also - checking brass/ammo in your barrel is more accurate than a case gauge, always.
@Yondering
Since you already use 8208 and the 123 eldm why did you not use the 123 sst ?
And go to the 129albr?
Since you already use 8208 and the 123 eldm why did you not use the 123 sst ?
And go to the 129albr?
I took down two deer last year with it, did great. MV was only 2345, and one was at 140 yds and the other at about 40. The former dropped right there (velocity was probably around 1575), the latter went about 20 yds (pictured below). Both went through, didn't find any evidence of the bullets, exit wounds looked like below. I've been extremely happy with it, I just wish I had some more mag length to push them faster just for long range plinking but for hunting it's great.
Attachments
I had the same issue when I started reloading for my Grendel, and other posters beat me to it. Use a case gauge and it will be clear, bumping a couple thou just wasn't enough for my barrel. Don't quote me, but as I remember it was 0.004" I had to bump back, which made me nervous but it's worked fine. Again, check with the case gauge to be sure but that's what worked for me.
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In the case of my 6.5g even factory loads are not ten thousand short.
In 5.56 I find a lot of 8 thousand under factory ammo.
Hornady 6.5g sst is 5 thousands short of my fired measurement.
Possibly something is wrong with die,
Or setup. Did you trim your brass?
Is your bullet seated long?
Measure a factory round that will fit.
Your reloaded round should not have to be shorter.
A factory round is dead center of my case checker and for now so are my reloads in 6.5g.
Notes and measurements accross town or would share for comparison.
In 5.56 I find a lot of 8 thousand under factory ammo.
Hornady 6.5g sst is 5 thousands short of my fired measurement.
Possibly something is wrong with die,
Or setup. Did you trim your brass?
Is your bullet seated long?
Measure a factory round that will fit.
Your reloaded round should not have to be shorter.
A factory round is dead center of my case checker and for now so are my reloads in 6.5g.
Notes and measurements accross town or would share for comparison.
Thanks for the replies, the gun only had maybe 150rds through it. I will have to look into a case gauge, I have the Hornady comparators for bullet seating and measuring head space. I was kind of going off of that measurement and just bumping a few thousandths. It definitely has been a little more effort then i'm used to with my bolt guns.
Agree with Yondering that a case gauge only tells you if a piece of brass fits the gauge. Bought one for .223 when I first started reloading and quickly sold it when I realized I wasn't actually getting any useful data for my rifles.
Regarding bumping the shoulder, and using the Hornady headspace tool to measure, I'd also verify the base of the case is getting sized down sufficiently.
Try marking the sized case with a sharpie, put it in the chamber manually, and then close the bolt slowly, putting it into battery as gently as possible with the forward assist.
See where the sharpie has been rubbed off and you might get some insight as to what part of the case is hanging up.
Didn't see it asked or mentioned, but you're trimming your cases to proper length after resizing, correct? If not, it could be a case of the mouth of the case entering the barrel past the freebore and engaging the rifling. Very bad juju if it is, as it can spike pressure. Again, didn't see it mentioned one way or the other, but figured I'd throw it out there along with the case marking idea.
Yes I have been trimming my cases to spec. I hadn't thought about the sharpie trick, I will give that a try as well. Thanks
ASC mags. All of mine will handle between 2.300-2.315" depending on the mag. I stick to about 2.295" max for reliability.
I'd load that bullet to 2.270" if I had to, as it still shot well enough for hunting, but definitely shot better farther out. That may be my particular chamber though; it seems to do best at max length with most of the long ogive bullets I've tried.
If you had to bump shoulders .010" to get the rounds to chamber, either you weren't measuring right or something else was wrong. Most likely a chamber with a tight body that your die wasn't sizing down enough. If everything else is right, bumping the shoulder back just .001" will allow easy chambering and extraction; any more than that is just clearance for dirty chambers and brass variation. (to be clear I still recommend .003-.004" for an AR)
towerofpower's comments above are good.
I still use my case gauges every time I load as a quick check.
Once I get head space / shoulder checked with the head space gauge I see what it looks like in the case gauge.
I think they are a good reference tool but not a measurement tool.
Factory semi auto rounds normally set at the bottom of my case gauges
And a .004 bump on my reloads is normally in the middle of the gauge.
If for no other use I can sort brass quickly in case me grandkids help me unsort brass. Lol
Once I get head space / shoulder checked with the head space gauge I see what it looks like in the case gauge.
I think they are a good reference tool but not a measurement tool.
Factory semi auto rounds normally set at the bottom of my case gauges
And a .004 bump on my reloads is normally in the middle of the gauge.
If for no other use I can sort brass quickly in case me grandkids help me unsort brass. Lol
This was in an AR, I should have specified. And I should have checked before posting, I bump my shoulders about 0.004", not 10 thou. Thanks, and I've edited my earlier post.
I have two bolts chambered in Grendel and no ARs in it now, ha. Love those micro length bolt actions.
OK, .004" is good.
.010" is asking for case head separations. Not on the first reload or two, but sooner or later.
@ Jevaughn0823
If you like I will take a look and some measurements on your brass.
You could send me a first fired and a reload less powder and primer.
I guess that would not be loaded ammo and ok to mail?
If not just the two empty brass.
Second hands on would be worth the postage.
Pm if interested.
Edit: I do not profess to be an expert just a guy with a different set of tools and the time to do it.
If you like I will take a look and some measurements on your brass.
You could send me a first fired and a reload less powder and primer.
I guess that would not be loaded ammo and ok to mail?
If not just the two empty brass.
Second hands on would be worth the postage.
Pm if interested.
Edit: I do not profess to be an expert just a guy with a different set of tools and the time to do it.
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Finally got the two 6.5 Grendels out for an extended session with little or no wind.
Found a few small issues, mostly with the ammo.
Seating the 95 VMax at 2.235" OAL, I still got one stuck in the rifling when I extracted a loaded round. This would suggest a shorter throat. I will be reducing OAl to 2.220".
There were no signs of pressure, whatsoever. Primers had only very minor flattening, and no cratering. No swipes.
Groups at 100yd were consistent at about 1 to 1 1/4MOA. Examination of the fired cases (about 120 of them) showed a random distribution of about half and half with CCI BR-4 and WSR primers. Stupid mistake on my part.
I was using the 30.0gr W748.95 VMax load exclusively. It's OK, but I should be able to get better from these guns. Next outing will test incremental loads of 29.4gr, 29.7gr, 30.0gr, 30.3gr, and 30.6gr of W748; and all cases are now primed with WSR. I may also make up some incremental W748 loads for the 123SST.
The upgraded triggers (PSA Two Stage Nickel Boron) are very nice, and the addition of M27/HK416 style recoil pads have totally eliminated any distractions from recoil.
I am really pleased with the AR Stoner Uppers (20" factory, 24" home assembled) and upgraded PSA M4 Classic Lowers. No failures or malfs of any kind were encountered.
The project is on track and continuing. Next step prior to the next outing will be a bore scoping of the two barrels after about 100rd each. If there are any anomalies, I'll post them here.
Greg
The test loads are made up, 100 for the two rifles and two bullets. Lot of extra work marking the charges (.3gr increments bracketing the 'better' 30.0gr charge) and bullet weights onto each case (to track pressure signs) with Sharpie, segregating load/bullet batches into individual bags. Targets are next, six stick on bulls per sheet, cut to fit my plastic sign backers. They'll be pre-marked with bullet/charge by each bull. The sixth bull is a sighter for when the bullets get changed. It's a lot of work, but I'm convinced the guns can do better, and I intend to find out.
Found a few small issues, mostly with the ammo.
Seating the 95 VMax at 2.235" OAL, I still got one stuck in the rifling when I extracted a loaded round. This would suggest a shorter throat. I will be reducing OAl to 2.220".
There were no signs of pressure, whatsoever. Primers had only very minor flattening, and no cratering. No swipes.
Groups at 100yd were consistent at about 1 to 1 1/4MOA. Examination of the fired cases (about 120 of them) showed a random distribution of about half and half with CCI BR-4 and WSR primers. Stupid mistake on my part.
I was using the 30.0gr W748.95 VMax load exclusively. It's OK, but I should be able to get better from these guns. Next outing will test incremental loads of 29.4gr, 29.7gr, 30.0gr, 30.3gr, and 30.6gr of W748; and all cases are now primed with WSR. I may also make up some incremental W748 loads for the 123SST.
The upgraded triggers (PSA Two Stage Nickel Boron) are very nice, and the addition of M27/HK416 style recoil pads have totally eliminated any distractions from recoil.
I am really pleased with the AR Stoner Uppers (20" factory, 24" home assembled) and upgraded PSA M4 Classic Lowers. No failures or malfs of any kind were encountered.
The project is on track and continuing. Next step prior to the next outing will be a bore scoping of the two barrels after about 100rd each. If there are any anomalies, I'll post them here.
Greg
The test loads are made up, 100 for the two rifles and two bullets. Lot of extra work marking the charges (.3gr increments bracketing the 'better' 30.0gr charge) and bullet weights onto each case (to track pressure signs) with Sharpie, segregating load/bullet batches into individual bags. Targets are next, six stick on bulls per sheet, cut to fit my plastic sign backers. They'll be pre-marked with bullet/charge by each bull. The sixth bull is a sighter for when the bullets get changed. It's a lot of work, but I'm convinced the guns can do better, and I intend to find out.
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Got 4 new 10 round ACS mags. I can fit 2.280" no problem. As you indicated, 2.290 ish is about as far as I would go. Turns out my problem was with some VERY old 5-round CProducts mags. Must be the damn 5 round limiter that does not allow for proper stacking/compression. Strange. My old 30 round mags seen t be GTG out to these lengths. Mystery solved.
Greg,
Just as a point of reference, I load the 90gr Varmageddon at 2.220. No issues jamming but they had a more tangent ogive. Probably can seat them longer. Did not have a chance to shoot groups or record, but I'm able to easily push them to 2835 fps (quick 3-shot avg) with 29.8 gr of IMR 8208 XBR.
I guess that depends upon what you want the mag to do. Here are some measurements from the mags that I have on hand...
ASC 10 round mag- 2.317
Elander 10 round mag- 2.290
AA (Elander) 17 round mag- 2.290
AA (Elander) 24 round mag- 2.290
ASC 10 round mag- 2.317
Elander 10 round mag- 2.290
AA (Elander) 17 round mag- 2.290
AA (Elander) 24 round mag- 2.290
