6.5 grendel

[T-Hoe]

I have a ar-15 in a 223, a dpms in 243 already. I would like to try something different. Would a 6.5 grendel be worth trying? I think something bigger than a 223, and something lighter than the dpms would be nice. This rifle would be used for coyote hunting and shooting steel targets at medium to long range.(400yds-900yds) I needs some advise.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: 6.5 grendel

Worth it is subjective.

I think of the Grendel as a good weapon for someone who doesnt have a 5.56 or 260. Worked with a young man who took his to 800 well enough but 900 was hinky due to poor trace conditions and bullet strike into tall grass.

Ammo and components I have no idea about, I was just spotting for him.

(When is worth it REALLY mattered when thinking of a weapon purchase?)

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: 6.5 grendel

Thanks for the reply, just thinking of trying something else.

 

[eleaf]

Re: 6.5 grendel

Yes. The Grendel is the most performance you'll get from the AR 15 platform. The first time I shot it, I was hitting steel at 600 in 2 shots, 3 shots to get on target at 700.

It's definitely good to 900. In fact, it's capable of everything a .308 is capable of. Stays supersonic out to about 1200, and hits harder at any range past 300 or so.

You won't be disappointed.

 

[bustin]

Re: 6.5 grendel

IMO the 6mm has better varmint bullets and shooting the 95SMK will do better at long range than the 6.5, the 6mmAR or 6BR would be a better choice for the combination of varmints and target.

 

[sermonator]

Re: 6.5 grendel

Don't get me wrong: I'm a Grendel fan. In the process of a build, right now. But... If you already have a .243, the DTACs are going to give you better range (albeit, not quite the hit) of the Grendel. Unless you are just looking for bigger womp in a smaller package than the AR10, it would seem redundant.

 

[polish handgunner]

Re: 6.5 grendel

My first 'big bore' AR was a DPMS 260.

Since then i purchased a Les Baer 6.5 Grendel upper and put it on a RRA NM lower.

They have 24" barrels. I like them both.

Neither is a 'packing' rifle - a little heavy for that.

A good 'packing' rifle is my Swedish Mauser!

260 brass is cheaper, 6.5 Grendel uses less powder.

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: 6.5 grendel

I have not tried the 115s my buddy and I shoot the 105s, they shoot good, but you are right they do not hit very hard past 600yds. If the grendel with a heaver bullet would hit harder and have similar trajectory I would be very interested.

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: 6.5 grendel

Another question, how does your 260 do in the ar? I have also thought of rebarreling mine.

 

[jbailey]

Re: 6.5 grendel

T-Hoe-

What is the weight of your DPMS in 243?

In theory, an AR in 243 and 6.5mm Grendel will ballistically look very similar. On the hitting power, you will kill a Yote with either round out a good distance (maybe the 6.5 has a bit of an advantage at longer range). Hitting steel is hitting steel - no real terminal performance necessary. Ballistically, I'm not sure you get much from a Grendel that you don't already have in 243.

However, 6.5mm Grendel is built off the AR-15, so you can essentially build them as light as you can build an AR-15. I just built a Grendel for under $1k that weighs in at 7.5 lbs (w/o optic). This is with a 18" barrel and muzzle brake. It is sub-moa gun so far (~100 round thru it for groups). I had it out at 1000yds this weekend and it holds an moa at 1000yds in moderate wind (3-5mph) w/o much trouble. It has the felt recoil of an 223 Rem.

I can post specs and a pic if you are interested in learning more.

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: 6.5 grendel

My 243 weight is 12lb 2oz with scope. When shooting steel at long range the plates hardly move at 800-1000yrds. I know it is just a 243 and that I should expect that. Normally when the longer ranges I shoot a 6.5x284. Since I started shooting that I have been so impressed with the 6.5 bullets. I have thought of re barreling to a 260 but thought if it could be done in a lighter package would be a plus. And yes I would like to learn more.

 

[jbailey]

Re: 6.5 grendel

T-Hoe-
There are several really good Grendel threads on this forum. This one here:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1748390&page=1

and this one here:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1810815&page=1

I will try to post a picture & specs of the Grendel I built as a result of these threads. I have not posted any pictures here so I can't promise when it will be up (I'm not tech savvy).

A 123gr Amax doing 2500 at the muzzle will be carrying ~360ft/lbs at 1000yds, vs 450ft/lbs for a 175gr SMK in 308 doing 2600 at the muzzle, so it is certainly not a HUGE hit on steel at that range. A 107gr SMK in 243 is carrying 300 ft/lbs at 1000 if launched at 2600. Personally I was having no problems spotting and hearing 6.5 Grendel steel hits at 1000.

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: 6.5 grendel

That is some good information,it makes me want one really bad. Still need more info on which to go with. (aa grendel or 264Les baer)

 

[Scottmilk9]

Re: 6.5 grendel

264 in my opinion. I build a lot of them for predator hunters and shoot one myself during our monthly precision rifle matches. I've shot 85gr bullets for coyotes and 124gr amax for match stuff, getting pretty impressive groups.

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: 6.5 grendel

Scottmilk9, what is the most common barrel length you are using? I think I would need a 24" to help with velocity at the longer ranges for what I need.

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: 6.5 grendel

Is there much difference between the 264 and the grendel?

 

[leadbullet]

Re: 6.5 grendel

I have both a 6.5 grendel and a 6mmAR, the 6mm shoots groups inside the grendel's accuracy, it is a fun round for hunting but for serious target shooting, the 6mm AR is hard to beat IMHO

 

[BERTMAN77MK2]

Re: 6.5 grendel

20" bbl seems to be stsndard--all have diff uses but my 14.5 and
24" seem to get most use--if I could only have 1 it would probably be an 18"----A Grendel with a good match grade barrel will equal the accuracy of any AR caliber---Les Baer accuracy
guarantee is in writing---and I have found Satern bbls to be fantastic---Rock is next on my list

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 6.5 grendel

This situation is kind of like a give up one to get the other. You want less weight but equal performance as your .243. The Grendel can get you close but to get the performance you have to add back the heavier longer barrel it will take to get that. At close range the .243 and .308 clearly spank the 6.5 Grendel in performance. The 6mm's also have a little treasure trove of high BC bullets that you can push pretty hard.

I know it's said that the 6mm AR/Turbo can get as good of performance as the 6.5 Grendel. That's because of high BC bullets pushed close to what the Grendel can do the same with High BC bullets.

In short, that's the whole key here. Will the round hold a magazine fed, loaded cartridge with a high enough BC bullet to get you to the range you desire? The 6.5 Grendel will as will the 6mmAR. And, better yet, the 6mm AR turbo. Better still is the 6mm BR and better than that is the 6mm BRX. This last little group requires a stronger bolt/barrel extension. Harrison, at www.ar15performance.com has those. That is something to look into if wanting to start a build. They hold abut 40 gr. of powder and still fit into the -15 platform. 6mm has high enough BC's that still work with these (they are the same length case as the Grendel/6mm AR/Turbo) There is also the option of just buying the bolt/barrel extension and going with 6mm, .257, 6.5mm or 7mm using the BRX case. If you are looking to duplicate .243 performance and still have enough room for high BC bullets that is what I would do.

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: 6.5 grendel

After reading your post, I see there is several different options. those other are pretty well all wildcats compared to the grendel and the 264.

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: 6.5 grendel

Mabe I should just suck it up and deal with the wright and go with a 260 on the larger frame.

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: 6.5 grendel

I meant weight. (sorry)

 

[eleaf]

Re: 6.5 grendel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: T-Hoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I meant weight. (sorry) </div></div>

Go Grendel. You won't be disappointed.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 6.5 grendel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: T-Hoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After reading your post, I see there is several different options. those other are pretty well all wildcats compared to the grendel and the 264.</div></div>

Not really, You can use BR dies for the BRX cases. There are now BRX full length dies. So, it's pretty much just a case if you want to do it right now, then get the BRX and BR dies, or wait for your BRX dies (caliber of choice) to be made. Which takes about a month.

Or as noted, and I did this a little while back, go with the 6.5 Grendel. I would suggest going with AA directly as they have the barrels in stock right now. As well as the uppers built up.

 

[eleaf]

Re: 6.5 grendel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: T-Hoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After reading your post, I see there is several different options. those other are pretty well all wildcats compared to the grendel and the 264.</div></div>

Not really, You can use BR dies for the BRX cases. There are now BRX full length dies. So, it's pretty much just a case if you want to do it right now, then get the BRX and BR dies, or wait for your BRX dies (caliber of choice) to be made. Which takes about a month.

Or as noted, and I did this a little while back, go with the 6.5 Grendel. I would suggest going with AA directly as they have the barrels in stock right now. As well as the uppers built up. </div></div>

My custom upper from Alexander Arms (Entry upper with Shilen barrel) came 7 days from the time I hit "submit" on their web site.

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: 6.5 grendel

I think I would lean towards the grendel also because of brass,factory ammo.

 

[jbailey]

Re: 6.5 grendel

T-Hoe, I wrote up my Grendel build specs in one of the above cited threads; it might give you some ideas. If you are looking for a light rifle that has very solid long-range potential, Grendel is pretty impressive with ammo that you can buy (if you have the wallet) at most well stocked stores.

 

[Unknown]

Re: 6.5 grendel

The Grendel and it's offshoots are great cartridges. The biggest mistake most folks make is trying to make them into something it isn't. The Grendel is an intermediate cartridge between the 5.56, 7.62x39, but well below the 260 Remington and similar cartridges.

People who try to hot load it end up with nothing but grief. Loaded correctly, it will easily make accurate shots at 1000 yards. I think the Grendel has the accuracy of the 5.56 (maybe better), about the same energy as the 7.62x39 or the 6.8SPC, but with vastly superior long distance performance than the 5.56, 7.62x39, or 6.8 SPC.

Accept it as an intermediate performing cartridge and it is wonderful.

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: 6.5 grendel

I guess there is nothing wrong with having both, a gendel and a 260, if funds allow. I am sure the 260 would be my cheapest route by just switching barrels. Mabe the grendel will come later as a new upper build.

 

[BERTMAN77MK2]

Re: 6.5 grendel

the Grendel's big selling point is that it is on the AR15 platform---I got tired of lugging a heavy AR10 around---and it
is probably at the limit of AR15 performance

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: 6.5 grendel

So how do you like your grendel as compared to your ar 10?

 

[TnRidgerunner]

Re: 6.5 grendel

Keep talking gentlemen,I am in the process of collecting my componets as we speak.I'm understanding the 123gr. bullet is the best.Any experience on bullet manufactors in this round?

 

[MrLebowski]

Re: 6.5 grendel

Well you got a few choices, thiers the 123 SMK(G1-BC.510), the 123 Amax(G1-BC.510), & 123 Lapua scenar (G1-BC.547). The Amax's are the cheapest but the scenars have the best published BC.

 

[jbailey]

Re: 6.5 grendel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TnRidgeRunner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keep talking gentlemen,I am in the process of collecting my componets as we speak.I'm understanding the 123gr. bullet is the best.Any experience on bullet manufactors in this round?
</div></div>

For target/match work: 123gr is the best bet for >600yds. I actually think the 107gr SMK is the best <600yd bullet, especially if you don't have a long 24" barrel. Why? The 123gr is pushed at about 2500fps, whereas you can get the 107gr SMK going at close to 2700fps (from 18-20" barrels). Inside 600yds, you will get 2MOA less drop from the 107 only giving up 0.25MOA of wind drift in 10mph X-wind to the 123gr. Past 600yds. the better BCs of the 123gr start to come into play on both drop and wind (especially on the wind).

Also, I think that the 107gr SMK is Sierra's BEST designed bullet across their ENTIRE bullet line. Why? Bryan Litz records a 0.94 G-7 Form Factor for this bullet, which is VERY attractive, especially given that this is a tangent ogive bullet and should be much less sensitive to seating depth than an AMax or VLD. The Form Factor measures how aerodynamic a bullet is compared to ballistic models and lower is better.

With all this said, I'm shooting thru a pile of Hornady loaded 123gr AMax's and getting excellent results at both <600 and >600, so I don't think you can go wrong unless you have a really short barrel (14.5" or less).

No comments on hunting bullets, as I don't hunt.

 

[He Shoot Me]

Re: 6.5 grendel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JamesBailey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For target/match work: 123gr is the best bet for >600yds. I actually think the 107gr SMK is the best <600yd bullet, especially if you don't have a long 24" barrel. Why? The 123gr is pushed at about 2500fps, whereas you can get the 107gr SMK going at close to 2700fps (from 18-20" barrels). Inside 600yds, you will get 2MOA less drop from the 107 only giving up 0.25MOA of wind drift in 10mph X-wind to the 123gr. Past 600yds. the better BCs of the 123gr start to come into play on both drop and wind (especially on the wind).

Also, I think that the 107gr SMK is Sierra's BEST designed bullet across their ENTIRE bullet line. Why? Bryan Litz records a 0.94 G-7 Form Factor for this bullet, which is VERY attractive, especially given that this is a tangent ogive bullet and should be much less sensitive to seating depth than an AMax or VLD. The Form Factor measures how aerodynamic a bullet is compared to ballistic models and lower is better.

With all this said, I'm shooting thru a pile of Hornady loaded 123gr AMax's and getting excellent results at both <600 and >600, so I don't think you can go wrong unless you have a really short barrel (14.5" or less).

No comments on hunting bullets, as I don't hunt. </div></div>

Interesting stuff James, Thanks.

-Pat

 

[UgashikBob]

Re: 6.5 grendel

I use several 5.56 AR's, a 6MMWOA, a 6.5 Grendal, a 6.8SPC and GAP AR10 in 260 to punch paper and hunt wolves by walking and calling. The 260 smokes them all but is a real bitch to hump and the 24" barrel is not the easiest to move around after setting hours in a snow drift.
Have had nothing but problems with the 6.8 but wasn't the rounds fault. Most of my shooting is under 300 yds. Had a couple cases where the 5.56 just didn't seem to cut it in terms of stopping power. For my conditions I think the difference between the 6mm, 6.5 and the 6.8 is nothing but cannon fodder for cyber warfare.

 

[eleaf]

Re: 6.5 grendel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UgashikBob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use several 5.56 AR's, a 6MMWOA, a 6.5 Grendal, a 6.8SPC and GAP AR10 in 260 to punch paper and hunt wolves by walking and calling. The 260 smokes them all but is a real bitch to hump and the 24" barrel is not the easiest to move around after setting hours in a snow drift.
Have had nothing but problems with the 6.8 but wasn't the rounds fault. Most of my shooting is under 300 yds. Had a couple cases where the 5.56 just didn't seem to cut it in terms of stopping power. For my conditions I think the difference between the 6mm, 6.5 and the 6.8 is nothing but cannon fodder for cyber warfare. </div></div>

For under 300 yards that sounds about right.

For above 300 yards, the 6mm and 6.5 Grendel will SMOKE the 6.8.

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: 6.5 grendel

I agree with the above,I am interested in the drop at 600yds and above.

 

[eleaf]

Re: 6.5 grendel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: T-Hoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with the above,I am interested in the drop at 600yds and above. </div></div>

In my Lapua Scenar 123 load and a 19.5" barrel, I'm at up 4.7 mils at 600 and up 5.9 at 700.

 

[jbailey]

Re: 6.5 grendel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: T-Hoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with the above,I am interested in the drop at 600yds and above. </div></div>

What bullets, MVs and environmental conditions are you looking for 600+yd drops?

You tell me the variables and I can tell you the drops.

 

[jbailey]

Re: 6.5 grendel

The 107gr SMK at 2700MV and in 65*, 29.30"Hg drops
@600: -3.4Mils, -11.7Moa
@1000: -10.1Mils, -34.8MOA
from a 100yd zero w/ a 2.5" sight

The 123gr AMax at 2500MV and in 65*, 29.30"Hg drops
@600: -4.1Mils, -14.2Moa
@1000: -11.2Mils, -38.4MOA
from a 100yd zero w/ a 2.5" sight

In a 10mph x-wind, 107gr SMK deflects:
@600: 1.7Mils, 5.8MOA
@1000: 3.5Mils, 11.9MOA

In a 10mph x-wind, 123gr AMax deflects:
@600: 1.5Mils, 5.1Moa
@1000: 2.8Mils, 9.7MOA

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: 6.5 grendel

Thats the info I needed Mr. Bailey, thank you. I just wanted that in moa's to compare to other cartridges.

 

[sititunga]

Re: 6.5 grendel

IMO the 108 gr Lapua is the best 1000 yds bullet going for the Grendel. It's flatter shooting than the 123. I've had sub moa group clusters with the 108 at 1000 yds. My 2 cents.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 6.5 grendel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMO the 108 gr Lapua is the best 1000 yds bullet going for the Grendel. It's flatter shooting than the 123. I've had sub moa group clusters with the 108 at 1000 yds. My 2 cents.</div></div>

I'll take the 123 gr. A-max, Scenar, or SMK every time over the 108. Less drift in wind. I can also get 2700 If I want to from these in a 24" barrel. It's better to get 2600 though and save brass.

 

[Tactical30]

Re: 6.5 grendel

<span style="text-decoration: underline">By far my favorite also, very accurate.</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">123gr. Lapua Scenar
29.0gr. Win748
CCI #450 Primer
AA/Lapua Brass
OAL- 2.255"</span>

Picture of some I just loaded up:

Side-by-Side comparison (below pic) of some 6.5 Grendel Hornady Bullets.

<span style="text-decoration: underline">L to R</span>
120gr. A-MAX
123gr. A-MAX
129gr. SST
95gr. V-MAX

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Another accurate 6.5 Grendel load load data and pic.</span><span style="font-weight: bold">
123gr. A-MAX
30.2gr. AA2520
CCI #450 Primer
AA/Lapua brass
OAL- 2.255"</span>

<span style="text-decoration: underline">And the Build the shoots 'em:</span>

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: 6.5 grendel

Something a bought that round just looks impressive, but so does that new build.

 

[Unknown]

Re: 6.5 grendel

I have 2 Grendels and one 24 inch barreled DPMS LR308 that has been about as tricked out as you can get using the DPMS catalog. The Grendels get far more range time because they are more fun to shoot, less recoil, handle much faster, cheaper to load for, and most importantly, more accurate by quite a margin.

Knowing what I do now, if I could only have one, I would take the Grendel.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: 6.5 grendel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unknown</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 24 inch barreled DPMS LR308 that has been about as tricked out as you can get using the DPMS catalog. </div></div>

Well there's your problem on the 308....



Grendel is as good as it gets in the AR15 platform in my opinion.

 

[sititunga]

Re: 6.5 grendel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMO the 108 gr Lapua is the best 1000 yds bullet going for the Grendel. It's flatter shooting than the 123. I've had sub moa group clusters with the 108 at 1000 yds. My 2 cents.</div></div>

I'll take the 123 gr. A-max, Scenar, or SMK every time over the 108. Less drift in wind. I can also get 2700 If I want to from these in a 24" barrel. It's better to get 2600 though and save brass. </div></div>

Agreed but 2700 is pushing the 123 very dangerously close (if not passed) safe pressures. At safe pressures the 123 is more of a lob into the target at 1k whereas the 108 shoots flatter. The A-Max and SMK have very similar BCs to the 108 Lapua. Heaviest is not always best.

 

[Jon A]

Re: 6.5 grendel

Keep in mind, if you want accurate results with Lapua's use their CD data, which is much less optimistic than their published single G1 BCs.