6.5 Grendel

#451
The accuracy is so good its hard not to want to go there. Its almost 1/2 Moa better on both tests than 27.5 or 27.8 and more than that above lighter loads. I would bet going a bit higher would be great as well but dont want to go there.

This lot is Hornady brass. 28 is basically just shy of the bottom of the neck so not super crunchy but crunchy none the less. Maybe I'll load 5 over and over and see how many firings I get before the pockets start to give up. Convenient enough for me to do that before I commit to this whole lot of 300 and blow them out after just a couple firings.
 
#452
Well shit, after 5 loadings they are starting to get a little loose, taking less effort to seat for sure. Not falling out by any means but loosening up. I'd load them a 6th but something tells me that's it. I guess I need to decide if I can live with that and decide how much stress that is putting on the rest of the system. I dont think its crazy, but likely riding the line of hot but not too hot. Maybe I'm just convincing myself its ok because its printing half inch groups? Ive been using H-4895 and its accurate but anemic, which I can live with, but my supply is running thin and I haven't seen it in ages.
 
#453
These are pretty handy for determining level of degradation of primer pockets. Pretty sure they came from Sinclair, and have saved me from wasting components on brass at its life’s end.
0CBC51B2-902A-4AEB-A69D-A50D34B77BDE.jpeg
 
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#457
zeroz said:
What do they call them? Primer pocket go/no go gauge?

You guys think Im in danger of tearing up that bolt running that load?
Click to expand...

If it's loosening primer pockets within 4-5 loads, it might be.

BUT - bolt life between one rifle and the next is not necessarily equal; it depends how evenly your bolt lugs seat against the barrel extension. (People often bring up the "floating" bolt head in an AR, but it doesn't float in the angular directions we need for completely even lug contact.) The easiest thing you can do to help ensure even lug contact is to square (true) up the front of your upper receiver. That puts the barrel extension co-axial to the upper receiver bore, and greatly reduces chances of having two or three bolt lugs taking most of the load, as you would find in most "rack grade" ARs.

If the bolt lug forces are evenly distributed, then they're lower on each individual lug, and your bolt will live a lot longer.

Of course that doesn't address extractor failures, but those are primarily related to gas system tuning. Make sure your rifle isn't overgassed much (if any) to maximize extractor life.

Hope that helps.
 
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#458
diggler1833 said:
FWIW, the 120gr Barnes TSX/TAC-X has hammered hogs as well, if not better than anything else I've used in the Grendel. Tough enough to get through the shield and into the spine on 250+ boars, yet still expand and do a lot of soft tissue damage on 30lb shoats.

Between my experience with the 120s and 100gr TTSX, I'd not think twice to use a Barnes 110-115gr bullet on game.
Click to expand...

How fast are you driving them to get good expansion at distance? (And how far away are you hitting the hogs too, I guess?)

I do have an 18" Grendel, but all my hunting experience with the Grendel has been with my 12.5"; with that short barrel I've mostly stuck to the bullets intended to expand at lower velocity, like the 129 ABLR. That particular bullet is almost a perfect match for the ballistics of a short barrel Grendel. I haven't had the chance to shoot hogs with it, but it really hammers deer and IMO seems a bit overkill sometimes; I've never had one fail to exit and it usually left fist-size exit holes whether it hit any bone or not. Seems like it'd work well on hogs too, being bonded and with a little more mass than the typical Grendel bullet.

I've thought about trying the Barnes competitor to that bullet, the 127 LRX, but am not sure it'd even fit the Grendel in an AR mag, or if it'd be able to be pushed fast enough to be a good choice. My inclination with Barnes bullets has usually been to go down in bullet weight to give them a little extra velocity, if ranges aren't really far. That 100gr TTSX seems like a pretty good option in that regard.
 
#459
Yondering said:
How fast are you driving them to get good expansion at distance? (And how far away are you hitting the hogs too, I guess?)

I do have an 18" Grendel, but all my hunting experience with the Grendel has been with my 12.5"; with that short barrel I've mostly stuck to the bullets intended to expand at lower velocity, like the 129 ABLR. That particular bullet is almost a perfect match for the ballistics of a short barrel Grendel. I haven't had the chance to shoot hogs with it, but it really hammers deer and IMO seems a bit overkill sometimes; I've never had one fail to exit and it usually left fist-size exit holes whether it hit any bone or not. Seems like it'd work well on hogs too, being bonded and with a little more mass than the typical Grendel bullet.

I've thought about trying the Barnes competitor to that bullet, the 127 LRX, but am not sure it'd even fit the Grendel in an AR mag, or if it'd be able to be pushed fast enough to be a good choice. My inclination with Barnes bullets has usually been to go down in bullet weight to give them a little extra velocity, if ranges aren't really far. That 100gr TTSX seems like a pretty good option in that regard.
Click to expand...

With a short barrel, I'd probably go with the 100gr TTSX.

IIRC, I was around 2,400 or so with the 120 TSX, and usually killed within 100 yards.

Not that my crap is any good, but here's a video of 3 huge hogs (250, 255, and 280ish) getting plugged with the 120gr TSX. I am not sure if my F-I-L ever hit anything 😄.



And here's a video of my results with the 120gr TSX/TAC-X (same bullet, different box).
 
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#460
16" Faxon gunner
CCI450
Starline Nickel plated brass
AA2460 28.2gr
123 ELDM
2400fps

Due to the pencil barrel I've only shot three shot groups, but they are averaging just under .5 moa. Only measured velocity on one three shot group, but the ES was 11.
 
#461
Shot my "most accurate" 108gr Scenar/ N135 load today at just a touch of distance to see if it would hold up. It was not very impressive.

20230504_105437.jpg


Whether or not the .5 at 100 was a fluke is now more debatable as today's group was around .9 MOA...but that's why I confirm before I load up a bunch. Way too much vertical to blame an almost non-existent wind too.

I'm going to give N133 a try. Should give me a chance at the velocity I want. Maybe it'll tighten things up too.
 
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#463
Dang @Yondering this Leverevolution stuff is for real. Threw some in the hopper, happened to throw 30.4gr so I rolled the dice and sent it with 123 ELD's. First five shots averaged 2420fps and a .74" group from a 12.8" barrel.
Kicks like two rented mules though, primers a bit flat. Gonna work down from here.
 
#464
TonyTheTiger said:
Dang @Yondering this Leverevolution stuff is for real. Threw some in the hopper, happened to throw 30.4gr so I rolled the dice and sent it with 123 ELD's. First five shots averaged 2420fps and a .74" group from a 12.8" barrel.
Kicks like two rented mules though, primers a bit flat. Gonna work down from here.
Click to expand...

Yeah it’s the real deal.
Do make sure to adjust the gas system though (restrict the gas a bit compared to normal loads), that’ll contribute a lot to felt recoil and effect on the brass. It’ll help the extractor survive too; harsh ejection is rough on Grendel extractors.

Watch the temps too as we get into warm weather; you should be able to drop the powder charge and keep it around 2,4000 fps in hot weather.

Another tip - if you use a brake (which tends to be really freakin loud on a 12.5” Grendel IME), Lever really works a brake well with all that gas volume and seems to cut felt recoil down more than something like 8208 that doesn’t produce as much gas and residual pressure at the muzzle.
 
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#465
TonyTheTiger said:
Dang @Yondering this Leverevolution stuff is for real. Threw some in the hopper, happened to throw 30.4gr so I rolled the dice and sent it with 123 ELD's. First five shots averaged 2420fps and a .74" group from a 12.8" barrel.
Kicks like two rented mules though, primers a bit flat. Gonna work down from here.
Click to expand...

BTW, I went back and looked over my data to be sure; my preferred Lever load with that 123gr ELD was running at 2,385 fps in my 12.5", so you're in the ballpark. Personally I don't go by primer appearance unless it's extreme, because there's too much variation between different kinds of primers, flash hole sizes, etc; the brass tells me what I need to know - particularly life of the primer pocket, as well as any ejector hole imprints (not swipes, but permanent imprints). If my brass is loosening primer pockets within 4 loadings, I figure that's a max safe load for anything in an AR, and a bit over for a Grendel. I prefer to get 8-10 loads from a piece of brass, which that 2,385 fps load did for me when I was using those bullets.

With that said, your 30.4gr charge would be pretty mild and much lower velocity in my rifle, most of the year here. For about 9 months out of the year I was using 32.8gr of Lever for that load, and then using a lower charge weight for my "summer load" to achieve the same velocity. Temps here are pretty mild though, and if you're into hot weather already that'd be a big part of the difference, along with maybe chamber and brass differences. I've seen 50+ fps difference in the same charge on the same day between brass brands.

At the end of the day, I recommend finding a safe max velocity (Lever works best when pushed hard, lowest SDs and best accuracy) and then adjusting the powder charge to match that velocity for hotter or colder temps, different brass, etc. I've achieved pretty consistent results with Lever that way. In fact, for load development with Lever any more I just find that safe max (i.e. as hot as I can push it with good brass life) and then tune OAL for accuracy. That keeps it simple and easy.
 
#466
Yondering said:
Yeah it’s the real deal.
Do make sure to adjust the gas system though (restrict the gas a bit compared to normal loads), that’ll contribute a lot to felt recoil and effect on the brass. It’ll help the extractor survive too; harsh ejection is rough on Grendel extractors.

Watch the temps too as we get into warm weather; you should be able to drop the powder charge and keep it around 2,4000 fps in hot weather.

Another tip - if you use a brake (which tends to be really freakin loud on a 12.5” Grendel IME), Lever really works a brake well with all that gas volume and seems to cut felt recoil down more than something like 8208 that doesn’t produce as much gas and residual pressure at the muzzle.
Click to expand...

Yondering said:
BTW, I went back and looked over my data to be sure; my preferred Lever load with that 123gr ELD was running at 2,385 fps in my 12.5", so you're in the ballpark. Personally I don't go by primer appearance unless it's extreme, because there's too much variation between different kinds of primers, flash hole sizes, etc; the brass tells me what I need to know - particularly life of the primer pocket, as well as any ejector hole imprints (not swipes, but permanent imprints). If my brass is loosening primer pockets within 4 loadings, I figure that's a max safe load for anything in an AR, and a bit over for a Grendel. I prefer to get 8-10 loads from a piece of brass, which that 2,385 fps load did for me when I was using those bullets.

With that said, your 30.4gr charge would be pretty mild and much lower velocity in my rifle, most of the year here. For about 9 months out of the year I was using 32.8gr of Lever for that load, and then using a lower charge weight for my "summer load" to achieve the same velocity. Temps here are pretty mild though, and if you're into hot weather already that'd be a big part of the difference, along with maybe chamber and brass differences. I've seen 50+ fps difference in the same charge on the same day between brass brands.

At the end of the day, I recommend finding a safe max velocity (Lever works best when pushed hard, lowest SDs and best accuracy) and then adjusting the powder charge to match that velocity for hotter or colder temps, different brass, etc. I've achieved pretty consistent results with Lever that way. In fact, for load development with Lever any more I just find that safe max (i.e. as hot as I can push it with good brass life) and then tune OAL for accuracy. That keeps it simple and easy.
Click to expand...
Thanks for all the good info, appreciate it!
 
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#467
Haven't had a chance to mess with my Grendel, but my brother had his 18" JP over and we ran 10 rounds of my 30.4gr Lever with 123ELD load through it. With a called flyer the 10rd group was 1.2". The 9 good ones were .73". Speed was impressive. 2620fps, ES of 22.
 
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#468
TonyTheTiger said:
Haven't had a chance to mess with my Grendel, but my brother had his 18" JP over and we ran 10 rounds of my 30.4gr Lever with 123ELD load through it. With a called flyer the 10rd group was 1.2". The 9 good ones were .73". Speed was impressive. 2620fps, ES of 22.
Click to expand...

That's pretty close to the same speed my 18" does with my 123gr load too, although with a larger powder charge and most likely cooler temps.

How hot is it where you're shooting?
 
#472
bobke said:
2620 is impressive from an 18” barrel. How are primer pockets holding up? Still manageable in full summer temps? Would think you may have succeeded in squeezing all of the juice out that load.
Click to expand...

They stay plenty tight for me. Mostly using Starline and Lapua, but even with PMC and Fiocchi converted x39 from back a number of years ago when I couldn't find Grendel brass.

We're talking about Leverevolution loads here; not really comparable to speeds you'd get with Varget or 8208 for example so don't assume it's really high pressure or even necessarily maxed out. In my rifle at least, that's a "working max", meaning actual max loads are a bit higher than that even.
Lever is capable of higher speeds than any other commercial powder in this application without exceeding reasonable pressures, so if you were getting speeds comparable to other powders from it, that'd be a sign your load is pretty mild.
 
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#473
Used to use a lot of 31+ of CFE223 with 123’s and stayed in the 2550-2575 range, with some powder compression at near top loads in my guns, actually getting 2650ish in a 24” Satern cut rifled barrel, but backed that down to 31.2 over time to spare Hornady brass. Use AR Comp as my current ‘go to’ powder for its accuracy, temp stability and low ES/SD numbers, and do have an unopened lb of Lever sitting for use with 129 ABLR’s, but now appears I’ll have to give it a try with 120/123 Scenars. Am in south Texas, so temps can range from mid 20’s to high 90’s throughout year, so will pay particular attention to pressure signs as summer approaches rapidly.
 
#474
Took a brief look at Lever today. 92D/50-60RH, 5-7SSE-pretty good conditions. Just a short test-ran 30.0/30.2/30.4 with Sierra 123’s, RP 7 1/2 in Lapua brass at 2.270 OAL. 2517/2514/2539, with no pressure signs in 20” Satern cut rifled barrel. Seems like there’s plenty of room to move up a grain or so and see where this goes, and how temp stable it remains through the summer. Very reminiscent of CFE223 loads. For reference, 27.2 AR Comp with Sierra 123’s and RP 7 1/2’s runs 2525 with 7.0 SD in same barrel. More, as able.
 
#475
Has anyone tried AR Comp or Lever for the 130 Berger AR hybrids? I am using CFE223 and getting a velocity of around 2480 to 2500fps (load development with a SD of 17) at sea level at 80F. My concern is the temp instability I have seen with CFE223. I am not a huge fan of the high SD.
 
#476
I have used a lot of cfe223.
223 , 308, 6.5g.
Powder was hard to get and that's what I had.

Some things I noticed.
I have better luck with low to medium bullet weights per cartridge.
It performs best near the top of practical recommended loads.
It gets scetchy quickly after that.
My best performance was in mid weight 223 bullets but usable loads could be made for 308 and 6.5g.

8208 or tac will probably outperform cfe223 in a 123g grendel. But barrels vary.

Note: ran low on cfe223 and got some H335 and like it better for 55g and under. A couple different sub 1/2 inch loads.
 
#477
Snuby642 said:
I have used a lot of cfe223.
223 , 308, 6.5g.
Powder was hard to get and that's what I had.

Some things I noticed.
I have better luck with low to medium bullet weights per cartridge.
It performs best near the top of practical recommended loads.
It gets scetchy quickly after that.
My best performance was in mid weight 223 bullets but usable loads could be made for 308 and 6.5g.

8208 or tac will probably outperform cfe223 in a 123g grendel. But barrels vary.

Note: ran low on cfe223 and got some H335 and like it better for 55g and under. A couple different sub 1/2 inch loads.
Click to expand...
I missed 8208, I ran out not to long ago and switch to CFE223. I did contact Hodgon asking about the Unicon Pu$$ known as 8208 and here is the response. I may try tac on the 130 as I have a decent amount of 130s laying around.
1685565436169.png
 
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#478
warnera1102 said:
I missed 8208, I ran out not to long ago and switch to CFE223. I did contact Hodgon asking about the Unicon Pu$$ known as 8208 and here is the response. I may try tac on the 130 as I have a decent amount of 130s laying around. View attachment 8152792
Click to expand...

Honestly, if we can’t hardly support the Ukraine conflict, we’d be absolutely crushed in an actual drawn out war…

In the mean time, I guess I’ll do my best to be ready and buy 8208 next time it hits the shelves.
 
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#479
I don't follow powder availability all that closely, but everything else I've looked at is at least available to varying degrees. Why would a war (that we're not even "engaged" in) single out one particular powder and cancel it's production?
 
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#480
Because manufacturers switched to whatever is most profitable.

They don't give anymore of a Rat's ass about the ukes than I do. And don't give a rats ass about any of us either.

You can't outspend the mic.
Thanks again biden cocksucker.

We are not at war just our money is.
 
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#481
TonyTheTiger said:
I don't follow powder availability all that closely, but everything else I've looked at is at least available to varying degrees. Why would a war (that we're not even "engaged" in) single out one particular powder and cancel it's production?
Click to expand...

Tony,

US politics has nothing to do with the availability of 8208 because it is made overseas. Hodgdons sells what it can get, when it gets it.

Hodgdon buys single-based powders from Australia, and double-based from Canada. Powders are then rebranded to give them a local feel.

ADI (Australian Defence Industries)/ Hodgdon rebranding
Trail Boss - Trail Boss
AR2207 - H4198
AR2219 - H322
BM2 - Benchmark
Bench Mark 8208 - 8208 XBR
AR2206H - H4895
AR2208 - Varget
AR2209 - H4350
AR2213H / AR2213SC H4831 / H4831SC
AR2217 - H1000
AR2225 - Retumbo
AR2218 - H50BMG

('AR' stands for Australian Rifle).

Aussie 8208 canister; "Made in Australia" at the bottom of the label.
8208 - Copy.jpg


Australian powder production was hit by Covid like everyone else, and now they are making munitions for Ukraine. ADI is also on record saying they don't make it as often because their other powders have higher demand.
 
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#483
Tony,

Mate, it's a bummer for sure, but production is slowly coming back so you'll see more of it soon enough.

I use 8208 for bullets below 120gn, and H4895 for 120 and above.

Been shooting Grendel for a few years now and never had primer pocket loosening. Grendel is such a low pressure round (52K lbs) and you'd have to have a hot load for that to be happening. Low pressure and the tight 30degree shoulder makes for very little trimming too, which saves a lot of effort.

One hack for tightening Small Rifle primer pockets is to use the RCBS Primer Pocket Swager 2. Fit the wider Large Rifle stem and spud; and instead of the spud going into the Small Rifle pocket it presses the brass around it. Brass then splays into the void of the pocket. Pocket is pressed back to the original diameter and leaves no marks. Seems a waste to throw away expensive brass before its time just because the pocket has come loose.

Not suggesting you buy the swager just for this but just saying - I use it on the larger 6.5x47 which uses Small Rifle primers and it works. Never tried but you could probably do something similar with a hammer, flat-ended hole punches, and a vise.
 
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#485
Warny,

It's pretty good because 8208 and H4895 are single-based powders made in the same factory. As you probably know, single-base powders are less susceptible to temp variation than double-based. 8208 is slightly faster so better suited to lighter bullets, while 4895 a bit slower, so more efficient for heavier bullets.

Here's some marketing blurb on temperature stability of ammunition made by the same factory that makes 4895. The ADI Mulwala plant only makes single-based powders and their ammunition subsidiary is keen to highlight the temp stability aspect of it. But velocities won't be as fast for the same pressure as you can load with say Alliant (double-based).
http://www.outbackammo.com.au/ballistic-temperature-independence/
 
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#486
bobke said:
Took a brief look at Lever today. 92D/50-60RH, 5-7SSE-pretty good conditions. Just a short test-ran 30.0/30.2/30.4 with Sierra 123’s, RP 7 1/2 in Lapua brass at 2.270 OAL. 2517/2514/2539, with no pressure signs in 20” Satern cut rifled barrel. Seems like there’s plenty of room to move up a grain or so and see where this goes, and how temp stable it remains through the summer. Very reminiscent of CFE223 loads. For reference, 27.2 AR Comp with Sierra 123’s and RP 7 1/2’s runs 2525 with 7.0 SD in same barrel. More, as able.
Click to expand...

For Lever loads in the Grendel, you can start with CFE223 data, and expect to end up 50-75 fps faster on the top end for the common bullet weights. SD's and accuracy are both generally best when it's pushed up to the top (and if you're not going to do that, might as well use 8208 or H4895 for temp stability with those lower velocities.

Lever and CFE223 are both fairly temp sensitive in most loads, but they're not the same powders and don't react the same way. As someone else said, CFE223 gets squirrely pretty quick on the top end, but all my experience with Lever, in a bunch of different cartridges, is that it's more forgiving when you get up to max. Just watch that temp sensitivity, and if you've got 20-90 degree temps, you'll want to use different summer and winter loads. If you develop the load at 90°, in the winter time it'll be slow enough that you might as well just use a stick powder unless you bump the charge up to get back in the same velocity window.

This is why I've been talking about Lever loads in terms of velocity rather than powder charge. Velocity is a much better indicator of pressure; the powder charge can vary a lot depending on the temperature.
 
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#487
klemheist said:
Warny,

It's pretty good because 8208 and H4895 are single-based powders made in the same factory. As you probably know, single-base powders are less susceptible to temp variation than double-based. 8208 is slightly faster so better suited to lighter bullets, while 4895 a bit slower, so more efficient for heavier bullets.

Here's some marketing blurb on temperature stability of ammunition made by the same factory that makes 4895. The ADI Mulwala plant only makes single-based powders and their ammunition subsidiary is keen to highlight the temp stability aspect of it. But velocities won't be as fast for the same pressure as you can load with say Alliant (double-based).
http://www.outbackammo.com.au/ballistic-temperature-independence/
Click to expand...

Yep. H4895 does well with the 129ablr in my grendel. 2279fps from my 18" still has it doing 1500fps at 600yds in my AO @ a DA of 2550. Thats still 200fps above its expansion threshold of 1300fps.
 
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#489
So, another very short test with Lever today with 129 ABLR’s in Lapua brass with 7 1/2 primers in 20” Satern cut rifled barrel. 30.0, 30.5 and 31.0 at approximately 2.28 OAL. 30.5 yielded 2472/4.0SD. 31.0 got 2512/2.6SD. Had some moderate powder compression with 30.5, more so with 31.0. Need some more tuning to charge weight and seating depth, but showing accuracy potential. Only 3 round increments, so not a proper sampling, but indicative of potential.
6C203292-C736-45EB-834A-2B2159100758.jpegEB4C6F8A-AA22-49E5-9584-68CC95B86397.jpeg
 
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#490
Recently got a BCA 6.5G 18" upper. Its shooting great. Just worked up a load using 85gr Hammer Hunter, 30.5gr TAC, Hornady case, WSR, 2.166col, 2850fps. Grouping .4moa 100 and .75moa 200yds. Been working on a load for 120gr ELDM right now looking real good with CFE223 30gr @2460 got me all touching .4moa also @2.255.
 

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#491
More today, with my favored load with 120 Scenars, 27.0gr AR Comp and CCI450’s. ARC just seems to deliver consistency across multiple Grendel barrels from 18-24”. This from a 22” Wilson Combat build.
4EA851B7-5847-493B-9CE2-66E64F3DB7C0.jpeg
 
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#492
COOP2564 said:
Recently got a BCA 6.5G 18" upper. Its shooting great. Just worked up a load using 85gr Hammer Hunter, 30.5gr TAC, Hornady case, WSR, 2.166col, 2850fps. Grouping .4moa 100 and .75moa 200yds. Been working on a load for 120gr ELDM right now looking real good with CFE223 30gr @2460 got me all touching .4moa also @2.255.
Click to expand...
You must have a long throat in order to seat the 120 ELDM that long. What measurement does that bullet engage the lands in your barrel? I and many others seat at 2.200" for a .030" jump. Just FYI, my load with that bullet is Hornady brass, 29.0 gr 748, Rem 7 1/2 primer at the aforementioned 2.200". 2580 fps from my 20" barrel and under 1/2 MOA consistently.
 
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#493
bobke said:
So, another very short test with Lever today with 129 ABLR’s in Lapua brass with 7 1/2 primers in 20” Satern cut rifled barrel. 30.0, 30.5 and 31.0 at approximately 2.28 OAL. 30.5 yielded 2472/4.0SD. 31.0 got 2512/2.6SD. Had some moderate powder compression with 30.5, more so with 31.0. Need some more tuning to charge weight and seating depth, but showing accuracy potential. Only 3 round increments, so not a proper sampling, but indicative of potential.
View attachment 8156543View attachment 8156544
Click to expand...
Hows the pressure signs on the AR comp? I think im looking at switching from the CFE223 to something else (Tac, Lever or AR Comp) for the 130 hybrids.
 
#494
As much as I’m a believer in AR Comp for bullets in the 107-123gr range, it might be a bit too fast to extract everything you might want out of 129-130gr bullets. Have not experimented enough with heavier bullets yet to say what’s the absolute best powder for the job, and have used both CFE and now Lever with positive indicators in 20” barrels, though an associate uses RL15 with 130 AR Hybrids very successfully at 1000yds in his GR. Trick with both CFE/Lever is to very closely monitor temps when building loads and how seasonal temps might affect velocity/pressure in your environment. Experience is how we learn.
 
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#495
Not sure where to post this so I'll ask it here. Just got into reloading (6.5 grendel) and I had a few questions. Got some good groups, with with some so-so Es's, (in the 20's) but my tightest group (.156 at 100) was with a horrendous 121 ES. I know 100 yds is close, but is that typical? .156" center to center with that horrible of a spread? Are spreads not that important?
 
#496
Basic,

Depends whether you are more interested in internal or external ballistics.

If you, like most of us define shooting by what we achieve down range, then what happens inside the gun is only a clumsy proxy for what happens down range. By clumsy proxy I mean shooters can still get good groups even thought their velocity spreads can be better. Annealing will lower those MV spreads to single digits but you still might not see any change to group size down range.

Be great if we won prizes for having the tightest velocity spread while shooting into the butts (no targets). Unlikely too many shooters would sign up to that discipline however.

As for group sizes, it is all about statistics. It is more precise and helpful to talk about the average group size, than cherry pick the best group to post. And if you define your accuracy by the best groups on the day, you only fool yourself.
 
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#497
I agree, you are correct. I guess what I'm asking is, is that normal? I was always under the assumption that really nice groups are usually from really tight ES's (providing of course the shooter is consistent in their fundamentals on the gun) If you would have told me a really tight group can be had with a 121 es I would have called bs.
 
#498
Basic,

Yes, you can have a 120fps spread and still group well. Accuracy is more about all the velocities, not just the extremes. Standard deviation (SD) is a better metric to describe a string of shots than extreme spread. This is because it describes all the shots, not just two.

If you still have a record of every shot in the string what is its SD?
 
#499
Basic user said:
I agree, you are correct. I guess what I'm asking is, is that normal? I was always under the assumption that really nice groups are usually from really tight ES's (providing of course the shooter is consistent in their fundamentals on the gun) If you would have told me a really tight group can be had with a 121 es I would have called bs.
Click to expand...

At 100 yards you can have big extreme spreads but good groups, because the velocity variation doesn't affect the trajectory very much. As you increase the distance though, you need smaller velocity variations to maintain the same accuracy, because those velocity differences start to show up as vertical stringing on the target.

And yes, at 100 it's "normal" at least in the sense that it can and does happen. Group size is not really linked to velocity consistency at that distance. And, conversely, consistent velocity is no guarantee of accuracy, at any distance.
 
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#500
klemheist said:
Basic,

Yes, you can have a 120fps spread and still group well. Accuracy is more about all the velocities, not just the extremes. Standard deviation (SD) is a better metric to describe a string of shots than extreme spread. This is because it describes all the shots, not just two.

If you still have a record of every shot in the string what is its SD?
Click to expand...

My buddy helped me work up a load ladder (only 3 rounds of each as we're short components right now) and the SD was 53.51 between the three.
 
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