It is spicy, I might slow it down.
But, I’m .2 below max with no pressure signs on the bolt gun. Gas gun shows minor primer flow.
Last edited:
6.5 Staball disappointing
- Thread starter 762 ULTRAMAGA
- Start date
But, I’m .2 below max with no pressure signs on the bolt gun. Gas gun shows minor primer flow.
That 230 gr 308 load is cooking. Curious, what brass are you using ? Primer pockets holding up ?
It's a planned max effort 308 Win build, 30" heavy palma, 8 twist 5 R Bartlein blank, in an aluminum chassis, on a long action.
It will feed 250 Atips 3.4" out of the mag, but requires a longer throat to run for the 250s.
It has achieved 4000 ft/lbs if muzzle energy with hybrid cases.
But this load is Lapua brass LR, I also use Plama brass but it has larger S/D and needs more powder to achieve the same velocity, with heavy powder charges.
Primer pockets are doing OK with both hybrid and Lapua brass.
I have also used LC brass, as a test it will get slightly higher velocities because of less capacity and should probably drop a grain as primer pockets in LC brass will not handle many reloads....but accuracy was only about .1" larger in 5 shot groups, with cheap LC primed cases, VS Lapua.
Which is good enough from most purposes.
I wish there was a more convenient way to measure pressure.
I don't find staball 6.5 too dirty, I just also don't seem to get the same accuracy that I do from 4350 or N160 in creedmoor cases.
I don't find staball 6.5 too dirty, I just also don't seem to get the same accuracy that I do from 4350 or N160 in creedmoor cases.
I don't understand the speed demon thing at all. More speed doesn't equal more accuracy or smaller groups, it just means a quicker death for barrels and brass. The trajectory gains are inconsequential and being wrong about pressure can be a disaster.
Linking higher MVs to greater accuracy potential is a myth, just another reloading Rorschach test where guys drive back and forth to the range fiddling with shit until they convince themselves they're seeing what they wanna see.
I've been loading every round I shoot to the kernel for the last 2+ years (or to the flake with Sta-Ball 6.5). It's changed the way I feel about things I used to think were super important like speed, case-fill, seating-depth/jump, etc. After thousands of rounds and a few barrels, it turns out that regardless of how much powder I put in a case, if I make every round come out nearly the same, I get low SDs, if I get low SDs, it shoots small groups (and hammers downrange because the MV and dope is boringly predictable).
The old nonsense of having to fill up a case to a certain point or having to hit a certain speed to be in an "accuracy node" is total BS.
Linking higher MVs to greater accuracy potential is a myth, just another reloading Rorschach test where guys drive back and forth to the range fiddling with shit until they convince themselves they're seeing what they wanna see.
I've been loading every round I shoot to the kernel for the last 2+ years (or to the flake with Sta-Ball 6.5). It's changed the way I feel about things I used to think were super important like speed, case-fill, seating-depth/jump, etc. After thousands of rounds and a few barrels, it turns out that regardless of how much powder I put in a case, if I make every round come out nearly the same, I get low SDs, if I get low SDs, it shoots small groups (and hammers downrange because the MV and dope is boringly predictable).
The old nonsense of having to fill up a case to a certain point or having to hit a certain speed to be in an "accuracy node" is total BS.
Well thought out system. Makes perfect sense a large primer would better-ignite ball. Expect you are throated out to .200 or so, gaining perhaps a bit of case capacity. Have similar setup but 1:10. Have you tried staball 6.5 with a 200 gr ? would it be a bit slow ? Good news on the primer pockets holding so far. Will you be taking it well beyond trans-sonic ? Lastly, hybrid cases are new to me but interested. Thanks for the eye-opener.
I use 6.5 Staball, starting at the 208 gr. and heavier to 230 gr SMK and Atips...even 250 Atips.
That's why the last 2 308 builds are 9 and 8 twist, to utilize the high BC bullets starting with the 200 gr SMK, where Alliant 2000 MR is the current powder of choice. They run 2856 fps in standard Lapua cases, and 2900 to 2950 on hybrid cases 2900 to 2910 is a good max in my rifle with this combination...not bad for a 308 case with a 200 gr bullet.
Pictured 308 Win max effort load test is for a long throated, long action, 30" 8 twist 5 R heavy palma...with my chamber reamer and throating reamer... utilizing hybrid cases.
I did all the machining on this rifle so it's one of a kind...could be easily duplicated by a competent gunsmith or machinist.
Definitely not safe on any other 308, way over max...the cartridges won't even fit standard 308 chambers...don't even consider it.
I ran 4 cycles of the hybrid brass and primer pockets are still tight.
Just showing the 308 case can hang with the others, and do it more economical, with better accuracy, especially in long strings of fire. Here 200 SMK hit 2951 fps, but accuracy was at 2900 fps, a nice load.
One can make big improvements to close to standard chamber by going to 9 or 8 twist barrels and pick up those heavy high BC bullets.
I shoot the 200s in a 9 twist 22" at 2740 fps with Lapua brass for example.
I have the 300WM and 300RUM, but the 308 can be really improved upon, for those interested.
Working on two other projects the 6.5 twist 8.6 Blackout has been a success and so has the .510 Whisper 10 twist, the newest addition.
Attachments
My tirade above was more directed at guys flirting with pressure for no good reason...
Speed in the name of the super-308 is another story! I bet there's no doubt which way the plate rocked or any issues picking up splash lol.
Speed in the name of the super-308 is another story! I bet there's no doubt which way the plate rocked or any issues picking up splash lol.
You always do what works for you at the present time, with an open mind to change depending on your particular shooting endevor.
Been at this a long time, as many, but I also have machine tools at my disposal to play around with ideas...what if? Or is it possible?
Back in the days of Precision Shooting mag and bench guns at 100 to 200 yds.
I followed them closely noting that their powder charges were in mostly way above max in my loading manuals with their heavy strong actions. Same high velocity high pressure loadings, was true of the 1000yd shooters, with a whole field of wildcats of that day.
Powders burn more consistently at higher pressures...to a certain point, and shown by some low S/ D with heavy loads, just like lighter normal pressures and chambers, one has to experiment, a bit.
One of the best BR shooters for one season had 9 barrels made up by his well known BR gunsmith..."for one season of shooting!"
Barrels, and brass are like tires on a race car...totally expendable,...if you are a serious competitor.
I am not that serious but chamber my own barrels and tryout ideas and wildcats I'm interested in... post the results, sometimes..(after spending alot of time and money on it) that some may be interested in...others not so much.
Always checking into how high one can get the velocity of a certain cartridge. What is possible, with certain changes...in everything, that can be changed?
Like a 9 mm Luger at over 2600 fps in a 9mm carbine..some might be interested, some not...but it can be handloaded. Probably a good home defense round...
Who cares? Some might be interested in such things. It's just sharing information on improving cartridges mostly with respect to velocity. Including subsonic loadings like the .510 Whisper or 8.6 blackout...
As always, use any of it, or none of it,... it's always up to the individual.
Attachments
Thanks for the projectile weight floor for 6.5 staball in 308. Suspect it would require a BAT action for your pursuits. Pushing the envelope is damn cool when you know what you are doing. Wouldn’t have believed such a thing was possible till I saw a video. (Wink)
I've been doing this long before the video, as soon as hybrid cases were available.
I use a similar process as the video but with more caution. One can tell the brass guy and action manufacturer had experience with this.
A Bat action is not necessary to get the performance at my level...but it would be prudent to use a Bat action...because of its extra strength.
Those guys went beyond where I go with the action, and accuracy and velocity S/D fell apart, at those super high pressure levels.
Gun powder seems to work well at a certain pressure level, depending on the powder...there is a too low and a too high with today's propellants.
One can keep the action together and velocity/ accuracy S/Ds at lower pressures, and still have a huge improvement in performance.
Notice I backed off the 2951 fps load because of that...and 2900 fps was where it was at with my rifle, for the 200 gr SMK in 308.
Few of todays powders will get the job done...Varget is not one of them...the one they used in the video...it gets erratic, I trued it... 56 fps S/Ds as the pressure builds.
The military had over 60 different blends to get the burn rate right at 80,000 psi.
That powder was top secret and not available to the public...it is a fine ball powder.
One should have a guide like QL and lots of reloading experience... so ya don't jump outside the pressure levels right from the start.
Purpose is to Introduce and share this information with careful experienced hand loaders looking for some improvement over factory and standard handloading procedures. Here Staball 6.5 works.
I have 1000 215 gr Bergers coming... to see how they do.
One can boost 9mm power factor by going heavy 147, 155, 165, and 185 gr 9 mm.
Yes, that's the other end...I go there too.
185 gr is doable....
Could 200 gr 9mm be possible? I had to find out..
Attachments
Do you feel comfortable in the 75-80K psi range with that 200? And is that approximately where you are at2900 with it and staball 6.5 ? Have you tested that load atELR, as seems would work well ? The recoil in an18lb FTR setup, no brake allowed, might be “interesting”, and the question of fouling on long strings begs an answer. It seems you are getting around that using pressure. Have you noticed a tendency for hardcarbon? Can you go 100 rounds with accuracy before cleaning ? Early quick load adopter. Been at this since ‘82. Still have all fingers. Long range nilgai and hogs is appealing with your hot rod system, and steel. No doubt throat erosion would be a side effect of that pressure. How bad is it so far ? Have 200 hyb and 200.20x. Can you get the fury cases direct from sign or off secondary mkt? Fired up !
Just got an email from American Reloading they had 16 100 rd boxed a few days ago were sold out in a few hours.
They have like 46 in stock now so order a box of 100 to try immediately...they are on sale.
The word has been getting out as I have been informing people since they first came available, about their possibilities.
I am comfortable running 70 to 75,000 psi.
Ran 100 cases 4 times primer pockets still good.
This will shorten your barrel life, don't know how much it's just physics...and I am not concerned about it, and not keeping track of rd count these days...as I just buy a new blank and chamber it. Plus I'm running these in more than one rifle...and in other calibers.
I have muzzle brakes on all rifles these are fired in, so recoil is no problem at all.
Barrels do not heat up like the big 30 magnums, I also shoot.
They work well at 1000 yds.
Many questions you have will be answered for your shooting needs, if you try them with the bullets you like, and see it it improves your outcome...or not. But you will notice a ballistics improvement and more energy on target.
I have a 8lb jug that was collecting dust. Decided to load it in 22GT for fire forming new alpha brass. My expectations were low & it worked surprisingly well. No load work up just threw together with 88eldm’s & old Wolf primers. Ran 3050 no idea of jump, , but it held about .75” at 100 for a 20tnd group.
Maybe it just jives with the GT case & sml primer
Maybe it just jives with the GT case & sml primer
Thank you. Will order. Expected decreased bbl life and increased recoil , thus not likely to work in f-class, unless recoil is more of a shove than a sharp jolt. Many other interesting uses come to mind. Have one unit printing in the ones and occasionally in the zeros, with 200.20x, so decent b c. Perfect test mule. Will keep eye on pressure and let it show me where the node is. Easily throw a brake on it begs the question, which brake do you prefer ?
I prefer Precision Armament M-72 Severe Duty...it really reduces recoil...but quite a bit of the blast comes back at the shooter...noisy.
Reduces recoil by 75% and is on many rifles I shoot.
But one can shoot a 300 RUM 250 gr 101 grs of powder, or heavy 308 Win with ease, in the prone position...
I shoot a 50BMG, which really dumps a massive concussion wave back at the shooter...so to me it's no big deal.
But you may feel otherwise.
Reduces recoil by 75% and is on many rifles I shoot.
But one can shoot a 300 RUM 250 gr 101 grs of powder, or heavy 308 Win with ease, in the prone position...
I shoot a 50BMG, which really dumps a massive concussion wave back at the shooter...so to me it's no big deal.
But you may feel otherwise.
Experience with similar, using a clamshell brake, coincides with yours. No big deal. Looking into your suggestion. Very helpful.
The Precision Armament Hypertap full size brake is every bit as effective as the M-72, but with much less back blast to the shooter.
Have 4 or 5 of those on different rifles & 2 on 308's.
The Hypertap's are also self timing. They go onsale at Devor often for around $120
Have 4 or 5 of those on different rifles & 2 on 308's.
The Hypertap's are also self timing. They go onsale at Devor often for around $120
It's good at replicating a reasonable burn rate and being a ball powder. It is nice to sit and throw 250 rounds through the Redding rather than wait on the auto-trickler.
In my case I noticed it's a little more picky than H4350, but I'm ok with that considering the gains in time I made at the bench.
I was reminded of this thread yesterday, and more than a little confused. Shooting a new to me 6.5CM for the first time. Just zeroing it in and grasping at loads. I picked three loads that shot pretty well with my other 6.5CM with the old barrel, and one that shoots well with the new barrel. Figured those were solid starting points.
The second load I tried was a 6.5Sta-Bal load with a 130 Berger. On the third shot I got the same "that didn't feel right" that I was feeling with the 270. I'd never felt it in the 6.5.
That "slightly off" aside it's shooting amazing, I was almost giddy that it was shooting so well. Off the shelf factory rifle that I have 12 rounds through, with no load development. Then on shot 6 I got a genuine "my muzzleloader is getting dirty" hang fire!!!
WTF? (I had one more round, figured I'd shoot it out, but shouldn't have bothered) Like I said, I never experienced that in the 6.5 before and I shot probably 350-450 rounds with it at least. The 270 is the same weight bullet, but 11 grains more powder. The Mag primers did make it feel "right", more consistent. I never felt the need for them in the 6.5, I only tried them to see if it would be cleaner. This has me puzzled for sure.
Last edited:
The plot thickens. Finally back at the bench tonight. Taking the empty boxes out of my range bag, I'd forgotten I had one dud. At the time, I'd assumed I'd screwed up rushing and didn't put any powder in it. Now in the house, not wearing ear muffs over a winter hat over ear plugs in a rain storm, I could easily hear it had powder in it. So in addition to the two hang fires, I had one total failure to fire.
That's not cool. Didn't see any signs that it even started to burn. Maybe it's a primer issue.
(ETA: I also forgot there were a couple rounds loaded with H4350)
Primer strike looks shallow, it's not.
Either way, I'll try some mag primers tomorrow. (they have a $2.50 price tag on them, so they're not exactly new either. lol
That's not cool. Didn't see any signs that it even started to burn. Maybe it's a primer issue.
(ETA: I also forgot there were a couple rounds loaded with H4350)
Primer strike looks shallow, it's not.
Either way, I'll try some mag primers tomorrow. (they have a $2.50 price tag on them, so they're not exactly new either. lol
Last edited:
What he said !!!
You're right!!! Didn't even hit me last night.
I had 3 or 4 left over rounds of something else I was using to initially sight in the rifle. That was one of them! I forgot all about them. So I got primer problems.
I had 3 or 4 left over rounds of something else I was using to initially sight in the rifle. That was one of them! I forgot all about them. So I got primer problems.
... or a bolt problem ... or a firing pin problem ... or a chamber problem ... or a powder problem ... or ... (blah blah blah).
The journey is what makes this hobby so much fun. You probably need to do a "control group" with generally new (not old) reloading supplies, and rule out "old shit" as a possible root cause.
My reloading room is in a fairly damp place unfortunately. And while my primers are stored in air tight containers with desiccant, they weren't always (nor was it always in that damp place).
And these odds and ends primers are at minimum 15 years old, but possibly as many as 30-35 years old.
And these odds and ends primers are at minimum 15 years old, but possibly as many as 30-35 years old.
Might be time to revamp your primer supply ... ya think ???
LOL
In both my AR10 and delta 5 pro I have enjoyed staball. SRP cases, CCI 450, 142gr SMK. 43.5 of staball and it hammers. Sub MOA in both rifles and good out to 1200 yards all day long. about 2700-2710 in my AR10 and 2760 in my Delta 5 pro. I found in my gas guns H4350 shows pressure signs way early compared to staball as well. I have bought various lots of powder as I buy it in the 1 pound jugs whenever I get tired of my autocharge pro dispensing H4350 with a overcharge every charge or every other charge. Getting a dillon 550 I plan on getting a 8lb jug so I dont have to worry about it flowing well through a measure.
Your Mileage may vary. This is in Central Texas Hill country where its dry and hot 80% of the year and I reload in my garage with no AC so it has been fairly environmentally stable for being exposed to very hot days very cold days and very wet days when the kids leave the door opens when its raining out.
Your Mileage may vary. This is in Central Texas Hill country where its dry and hot 80% of the year and I reload in my garage with no AC so it has been fairly environmentally stable for being exposed to very hot days very cold days and very wet days when the kids leave the door opens when its raining out.
I've gotten great 6.5-CM results with StaBall. Very consistent single-digit SD's, tight groups, and solid performance in the range of temps we have here in Central Oregon. My only criticism of it is that StaBall is a little dirtier than others, but I clean after every range visit so that's no big deal to me. I use Bore Tech Eliminator and the barrel is 100% clean and shiny after just a few passes. I actually bought a replacement barrel (McGowen) for my Tikka T3x TAC A1 as I rolled past 2,000 rounds, and figured I'd replace it soon. I'm now approaching 4,000 rounds through the original barrel and still getting sub-MOA groups and great results to and beyond 1,000 yards. As soon as the groups loosen up, I'll replace the barrel, but that doesn't appear to be happening any time soon. Precision reloads with StaBall 6.5 is pretty much the only thing that's been used in this barrel.
.
I was just about to take the rifle down to clean it, but I thought before I did I said let's stick the scope in it. Bottom of the barrel full of these chunky specks. I fired 32-34? rounds today with mag primers. Seems to be cleaner that way, I don't get the soot row I had in the past. I did however have one hang fire. (sigh)
I got a few pounds to try it out back during Rona in 2022.
Loaded up some for my brothers lightweight Christensen Mesa 22" 6.5cm hunting rig after a little work up playing with seating depth and charge weight. A 140gr Interlock seated 0.010" off the lands, 2815fps, 43.4gr StaBall 6.5, CCI #34, SD of 7 ES of 22. Shot 5, 5 shot groups all 0.5-0.7", which for a sub 8lb rifle, 3-9 Leupold I felt was respectable. Decided to try that load in my 24" Tikka for shits and giggles and it produced a 0.203" group of the single group I shot in the Tikka.
Loaded up some for my brothers lightweight Christensen Mesa 22" 6.5cm hunting rig after a little work up playing with seating depth and charge weight. A 140gr Interlock seated 0.010" off the lands, 2815fps, 43.4gr StaBall 6.5, CCI #34, SD of 7 ES of 22. Shot 5, 5 shot groups all 0.5-0.7", which for a sub 8lb rifle, 3-9 Leupold I felt was respectable. Decided to try that load in my 24" Tikka for shits and giggles and it produced a 0.203" group of the single group I shot in the Tikka.
I get nice tight groups and great consistency in my 6.5-CM Tikka with StaBall ... so I'm really happy with it. Much better results than I got with H4350 and a couple of others. Sure ... it runs a little dirty ... but that's very manageable. It's a little like Accurate MagPro in big-bore rifles. Groups are tight and velocity/SD is solid, but you've gotta be OK cleaning the barrel a bit more often. Some very good powders just run dirty ... not sure why.
My Tikka loves H4350 at least with the factory Tac A1 barrel, haven't shot my new prefit yet.
I’ve had great results with StaBall 6.5… I use it in .25 Creed, 6.5 Creed, .260 Rem, 7mm-08, 7mm SAW, and .308 Win. It does like to be up near the top of the pressure spectrum for best performance in all of those cartridges, from my experience, so keep that in mind, and proceed with caution.
Same here it's one of my favorite powders, I've used it in 6 GT, 6.5 CM, .280 ai, .30-06 and 300 WSM. The only one I had any issues or weirdness with was 6 GT with nearly 40gr over SRPs, I think I had some borderline ignition issues, never a problem with LRPs though.
I've had very good results with 6.5 staball in 6.5 PRC 22" barrel and 243 22" very good velocities and what I have found is you need a full case and mag primers, that will get your es and sd in check. It's not a good powder for under 95% fill from what I have experienced. But Mag primers and full case is sweet spot in my guns where that works.
