6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

[MDM]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

I'm going to do some testing this weekend on paper, or rather a 38"x48" sheet of paneling. I should be able to tell what the bullets are truly doing then. Going to try a proven 140 Amax load at 2765. I worked on the VLD load yesterday, it's at 2810 and was printing about .33moa at 310yds. I'll know soon enough whether this was a fluke or not.

Tom, feel free to use this thread to discuss the mile and your findings with your 6.5's.

I don't know what the qualifications are for world class, but Tom and and some of the shooters at TVP fall into that category in my book. I have a feeling some surprising info will come out of the TVP mile match.

 

[bohem]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

MDM- The Bergers and JLK's shot at those distances were out on Tom's range over the course of last summer/fall.

The Amax's and Hornady BTHP's were shot near me on a friend's land where we could get out a decent clip, certainly nothing as nice as TVP but it worked for throwing bullets out of sight.

I've seen Tom shoot the 142's at 1650 and 1740 without issue at all. The transition from his quoted MV's with that bullet was right around 1650yd when he and I talked about it last year. His shots with the 260 got me to thinking how far out I could hit with my 30-06... eventually I got to the mile target with that too.

The bullet geometry is the biggest factor to shooting a light caliber past the sound barrier, the bullet must be up to the task. If that basic condition is not satisfied it doesn't matter who is driving the rifle anymore; hits turn into a statistical anomaly.




Tom- Do you know if Berger updated the 6.5 VLD design since 2009? The lot of bullets I shot last year were all late 2009 production, maybe that's why my results showed transition issues.

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

That's a simple request...we will provide that for you. Should already be some on YouTube as well.
Again, I'm not putting anyone in their place here. I'm just sharing facts and dozens of TVP customers have seen it done several times.
As for first and second shot hits with a .260 on a 12"x12" steel plate at a mile...yes...it's been done a few times also. No..not everytime..but several times. And if it was a miss..most of them end up in a 18" x 30" area around the plate.
TVP has giving several hundred folks a chance to see what is possible with the right tool.
Shooting a mile with a 6.5 is not a big issue here. Some guys are 6 moa left/right and 8 moa down on the first shot... directing it to the target and hitting with MOA accuracy is done more often than not.
We will share some video with the viewers to enjoy..with a twist or two addded just for fun.
As for what TVP .260's weigh...they average 15-16 lbs for the total set up.

Average specs---

Surgeon 591R
KMW stock or A-5
1.250" for 6" tapered to .950 at muzzzle Kreiger 26"- 28" 8-8.5 twist SS
Harrell's Precision Brake
KMW or Surgeon BM
Jewel set at 1 lbs.
Atlas bi-pod
N/F 5.5-22x56 or 5-25 Premier MOA MOA

Average MV is 2900 fps with a Berger 140 VLD and 142 SMK
Avereage MOA to 600 is 11.5
Average MOA to 1000 is 26.5
Average MOA to 1740 is 73

As for being subsonic...that means nothing 95% of the time in my experience with a .260 or a .300 Hulk....or a .308 for that matter.

If anyone cares to post a video of a light tactical rifle (not a Heavy Bench gun), in .260, grouping (or even getting repeatable hits), on a 12"x12" target at a mile, there are experienced people in this community that would be very interested in seeing how it is done.

How experienced are they if they have not been able to do this?
Or in all fairness maybe they have not tried and are just goin by what the numbers say or someone who "thinks" they know what they are talking about and never have actually done it or seen it done.
It's common practice here to poke at the mile and our upcoming video will prove. No, not to prove anyone wrong or put someone in their place...just to educate those who don't know.

This is for fun and not a pissing match. We should all feel good about sharing info on the Hide and helping others instead of keeping so called secrets.

You can "read" yourself into failure by reading alot of bullshit about ballistics and transonic and subsonic and moa accuracy.
When a guy tells me he has experience but doubts a well known fact then that tells me he doesn't know what he is talking about..it tells me he has been reading more than shooting.

There are a couple of guys I can think of right now who could write a book on rifle shooting and "known" ballistic performance.
Why? Because they've been there and done that and several thousand bullets a year don't lie. Ballistic PC's are like chronys...they get you close. But only the real time and place gives you the correct answer. It may NOT always work the way it did before...but most of the time it does. And those are the questions that need answered..why is the ballistic computer or other info wrong?
Well to me that's simple.
Books such as Mr. Litz's are a paving stone toward the truth and a path to follow for the "average" shooter.
In ten years when he writes a new one from the knowledge he has gained himself and from others it will be re-written with new and exciting findings. Numbers will become more advanced and facts will arise from them. Bullets will become better because of work like this and we will be able to shoot further than we ever imagined possible with accuracy. We're already seeing it now...it's just not in a book..yet.

 

[Graham]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

Tom, I agree with you that neither of us are posting here to be disrespectful or to argue for the sake of ego, and I can't claim any world records so I will concede that you are a better shot than I am.

To be clear, no one in this Thread ever claimed that it's impossible to shoot at a mile or that one can't shoot a .260 at a mile. It's consistent sub-MOA subsonic performance from tactical rifles off a bi-pod on 12" targets at a mile with VLD's that I'm taking issue with, by saying that this would be world class performance.

Here is the original claim:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shot my 6.5 Lapua for the first time to 1 mile today. It took me 3 rounds to get on target, then the next 4 hit. The red dot is 3 inches. All of them hit tip first. It took 22 mils elevation and .9 mils windage. I'm running the 140 VLD's at 2830 with 40.6 grains of H4350.</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This load was really not developed... I was testing the Bergers in my dads rifle, which is identical to mine, and decided to try a few loads of the Bergers in mine. I loaded up two sets at 40.3(this is my amax load) and 40.6g. The 40.6 was grouping under an inch at 300 so I loaded up 10 just to try at some longer targets.</div></div>
He posted a picture of a 25" plate showing the hits, with what was represented as a 3" Bull for scale. I doubted it.

This was your position:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get used to the guys who cast doubt....A 12"x12" steel target at a mile is a cake walk with a .260 rem shooting 140 Bergers or 142 SMK's no matter what the numbers say. </div></div>
I responded:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you find sub MOA performance at a mile to be a 'cake walk' with a .260 light tactical rifle from a bi-pod, and regardless of bullet selection and regardless of 'what the numbers say', then that would be world class shooting as well... there are experienced people in this community that would be very interested in seeing how it is done. </div></div>
There's lots of 'stuff' on YouTube, with varying degrees of credibility, but I don't want to mis-state your position on this so let me get it right:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How experienced are they if they have not been able to do this?</div></div>
Ever wonder why the F-class Open 'big boys' that you mentioned are going to 7mm for consistency over their 6.5x284's and leaving their 6mm's behind at the thousand?

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tom, I agree with you that neither of us are posting here to be disrespectful or to argue for the sake of ego, and I can't claim any world records so I will concede that you are a better shot than I am.

To be clear, no one in this Thread ever claimed that it's impossible to shoot at a mile or that one can't shoot a .260 at a mile. <span style="font-weight: bold">It's consistent sub-MOA subsonic performance from tactical rifles off a bi-pod on 12" targets at a mile with VLD's that I'm taking issue with, by saying that this would be world class performance.</span>

Here is the original claim:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shot my 6.5 Lapua for the first time to 1 mile today. It took me 3 rounds to get on target, then the next 4 hit. The red dot is 3 inches. All of them hit tip first. It took 22 mils elevation and .9 mils windage. I'm running the 140 VLD's at 2830 with 40.6 grains of H4350.</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This load was really not developed... I was testing the Bergers in my dads rifle, which is identical to mine, and decided to try a few loads of the Bergers in mine. I loaded up two sets at 40.3(this is my amax load) and 40.6g. The 40.6 was grouping under an inch at 300 so I loaded up 10 just to try at some longer targets.</div></div>
He posted a picture of a 25" plate showing the hits, with what was represented as a 3" Bull for scale. I doubted it.
</div></div>

FWIW I felt the same way Graham, nobody likes being called a fibber about a shot they claim to have made, but as you've clearly put, this is <span style="font-weight: bold"> AMAZING </span> shooting. No offense to anyone, including the OP, but it just seems to good to be true.

 

[MDM]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

Delete - for better pictures. Phone camaras suck. Video next time.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

In this case you should really show the entire target board.

Not for nothing but that looks like a "writer's group". Especially in light of this discussion.

 

[Graham]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

One can't re-write the laws of physics, whether or not one chalks it up to specialized knowledge.

Claiming that results are different 'on the ground' and 'in the real world' is never an excuse for operational incompetence. If your ballistic program is giving you wrong information then it is not being used correctly. My Exbal dope has always been within .1 Mil of the (actual conditions) dope for all my .308's with all my .308 loads - everywhere. My FFS dope is spot-on for ELR, provided I calibrate the round at a velocity of between 80% 90% of its supersonic range. There are many sources of ballistic program inaccuracies. Our task as riflemen is to overcome them to the extent that it matters on target.

And yes, I often doubt 'well-known' facts. Because facts by themselves are only illustration: It is a fact that the world is flat. It is a fact that cigarettes do not cause cancer. It is a fact that men are more rational than women. It is a fact that feeding dead sheep to cows is an efficient method of raising livestock for human consumption. It is a fact that the Maginot line will stop the German army. Then we found out about the orbit of the planets, lung cancer, mysoginy and Mad Cow disease, to say nothing about our failed attempts to stop German tanks in two world wars. I have no doubt that after Galileo and before space flight people were still arguing that the world was flat on the basis that nobody had been to outer space. Nobody has been inside a rifle chamber, either, but perhaps we should not get too far out of the box with our claims of 'real world' performance based on information not yet written.

 

[DGD6MM]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

ASC must of been a tuff shot.

 

[JWV]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

Excellent shooting MDM. Love the rifle. I am going to attempt a 1k and 1 mile before winter comes in northern Michigan. This will be with my built savage in 260AI with 140 amaxs.

 

[glock24]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JWV</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Excellent shooting MDM. Love the rifle. I am going to attempt a 1k and 1 mile before winter comes in northern Michigan. This will be with my built savage in 260AI with 140 amaxs. </div></div>

PM sent

 

[LibertyArms]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

Got out with tom sarver today for a training session at thunder valley precision. Though it is not as good as first or sencond round hits by any means, i did shoot my 6.5x47 today at one mile 3 consecutive times. took me 12 rounds to get on target, as i had to use up all my scopes adjustment and hold 17 on the ret.

But hit it none the less, i believe it now. lol

 

[kthomas]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

Nice shooting!

I love reading threads like these, it really sparks my enthusiasm to get into long range shooting. There is a guy in Canada shooting out a mile with his .223 accurately. So I don't see why it wouldn't be possible with a 6.5x47.

Here is a little excerpt from the article I read on the ".223 to a mile" shooter:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">6 out of 7 rds well inside a sub MOA rock at "1 mile". I'll take that....</div></div>

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kthomas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice shooting! There is a guy in Canada shooting out a mile with his .223 accurately. So I don't see why it wouldn't be possible with a 6.5x47.</div></div>

Yep, I know a guy at from the gun store whose cousin's, brothers, wife works for a guy who does this ALL DAY LONG. Only he does it with his 10/22 and a straight 6 power scope.

Happy Shooting,
-Chris

 

[Indypendent]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

Subscribing for YouTube links/substantiating results.

 

[3PER]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kthomas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice shooting!

I love reading threads like these, it really sparks my enthusiasm to get into long range shooting. There is a guy in Canada shooting out a mile with his .223 accurately. So I don't see why it wouldn't be possible with a 6.5x47.

Here is a little excerpt from the article I read on the ".223 to a mile" shooter:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">6 out of 7 rds well inside a sub MOA rock at "1 mile". I'll take that....</div></div> </div></div>

I would love to see that.

 

[kthomas]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

Here you go: http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/shooting-223-mile-3.php

He is a VERY well respected shooter in the Canadian long distance shooting community.

 

[heron163]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile


[/quote]

I would love to see that. [/quote]

I think this may be the video - not sure...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4yfajXoiqg&feature=player_embedded#!

 

[cowboy_coffee]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

Wow...go to read an article and step in the middle of a pissing match. Would rather go shoot.

 

[MDM]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RWG818</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got out with tom sarver today for a training session at thunder valley precision. Though it is not as good as first or sencond round hits by any means, i did shoot my 6.5x47 today at one mile 3 consecutive times. took me 12 rounds to get on target, as i had to use up all my scopes adjustment and hold 17 on the ret.

But hit it none the less, i believe it now. lol </div></div>
Nice shooting! What was your load?

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

I was there...I spotted for him and gave him the corrections.
Three hits in a row. Not typical or realistic but it does happen a lot. No, these rifles and cartridges are not designed or suppoesed to shoot these distances but neither is the .22LR subsonic supposed to shoot 585 yards with accuracy...but it will.
This is the ELR section of this great forum isn't it?

 

[LibertyArms]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

41gr of 4350, 142 smk,cci br4 primer. out a 26" bbl. right around 2750 fps

Agreed,this is not the intentions of the rifle. Is it possible yes, made to do it dayin and day out no. The conditions when i shot where just about perfect. and with out toms help spotting to get me on target it would never have happend.

As tom said it is not desgined to do it, but i wish i had some more time witht he 1 mile target and this rifle. I would love to really push the envolope with it, just to see how well it can be shot with the smaller calibers. still not meant for it but would be fun.

 

[MDM]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

I've not tried the mile since my original post. I've been busy with getting the firewood stash ready for winter. Plus, we have a new baby boy coming in November, (lots of chores in prepping for this as well) so I have to get the bow kill early this year. I'm just overjoyed to have a new shooting partner in the years to come.

 

[MDM]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

The 142 SMK is the only 140 class I've not done any extensive work-up with. I did try one short test with them and 41g of H4350 seemed to shoot really well at 100yds. I never tried it at distance and did not shoot it over the chrony. I'll have to order some more of them to give them try.

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

Congratulations on the new baby boy! What a proud moment that will be!
Wont be long and he will be out here with us. Well..he may have a laser rifle by then...lol.

 

[MDM]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

Thanks Tom. Yep, hopefully he will take an interest and we will be up there together in a few years. I've already had deep thoughts about what his first long range set up will be. I think a Red Ryder/22lr/223 Ackley shooting the 75 Amax would be nice progression.

 

[Lodi]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

My shooting buddies and I have witnessed many subsonic marvels! 6.5's, 30cal's, and .338's all surprising us with subsonic performance.

 

[sako75]

Re: 6.5 x 47 Lapua to 1 Mile

Lodi, would you share some details regarding your experiences with the 6.5mm bullets go subsonic? Which bullets you prefer? Gotta love the 6.5mm bullets.
Thanks!