6.5CM, Issues with 140 AMAX in 8 Twist Edit: Bad Lot of AMAX

jonaddis84

jonaddis84

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Jan 27, 2009
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#1
Wondering if anyone else out there is having issues running the 140 AMAX in an 8 twist? Ive chambered two Bartlein 5R 1-8 now, identical chambers, go +.001, using same brass, same powder that are just not shooting the AMAX. Shot probably 60 groups between the two barrels, powder charges ranging from 42.0-43.1, seating depth from .040 jump to .010 jam. All using H4350. All bullets from same lot. Have also shot factory ammo to rule out my reloading abilities haha.

Before you suggest possible bullet, brass, or chamber irregularities. My previous rifle was a Bartlein 8.5tw 5R, chambered with same reamer to same specs, using same brass, same powder, same lot of bullets. It shot regular 1/4" groups at 100.

I was at my wits end looking for issues with this new rifle, when I decided to try some 130 Bergers. Guessed at a load of 43.0 H4350 and jammed .005. I had just shot four 3-shot groups with different AMAX loads that the best was maybe 3/4", first 5-shot with the Bergers was sub .2". Wasnt a fluke either, have shot several similar groups since then, and now have bumped the charge up to 44.0 and shooting excellent at 2866 fps out of 21.75" barrel.

I got to the point searching for issues with the rifle after the second barrel did the same thing, that I re-chambered a good shape 308 take-off barrel I had, it was a 12tw, loaded a few rounds of 175 SMK up with Varget and shot a 1/2" 5 shot with that less than ideal setup.

Anyway. Has anyone experienced anything similar? Find a solution? I have 2000 AMAX Id hate to not be able to use them as I am a cheapass and the Bergers are $13 more per box.

Here's the proof...
eve4u5ym.jpg
 
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#2
My 6.5 Creed shoots lights out with a 8 twist Rock, my previous tube was a 260Rem 8twist Bartlein, and it shot 140max great, my 140amax load for my Creed is Hornady Brass, CCI primers, 43.2 H4350, 140amax seated at 2.208 Ojive, speed is 2805 with single digit spreads.
 
#4
I kinda did the same as you starting in the 42s and couldn't find anything that worked but I actually found 41.8-9 was very accurate putting 5 in a 1/4". 42 and on would not shoot too well till about 42.7gr which shot around a 1/2". I will say I was surprised how big some of the groups got in the 42gr range. If you check out recent threads on the newer hornady ammo people are having accuracy issues with the new stuff. It could be the newer batches of bullets.
 
#5
Interesting, where are you guys seating in relation to the lands? My 6.5 comparator is homemade so I cant compare to your ogive length.

I didnt try anything below 42, and didnt try much above 43 as 43.1 was giving me some ejector marks. Will definitely try some sub 42 loads when I get back.

This has been the most frustrating load development for me ever. Flight leaves at 6am for Bushnell brawl tomorrow, just found out yesterday the Berger was A solution. Had to overnight enough to load up for the match.... Guess you gotta pay to play. I will say, these Berger have now transformed this rifle into a laser, need to locate some 140 Hybrid to try, if Im going to pay Berger prices, might as well get the good bullet!

Oh, these bullets are at least a year old, so not sure when the issues with the Hornady ammo came about, but these should be prior to that I think. The factory ammo I was trying was relatively new though, probably within past 2 months.
 
#6
Man I hate that for you. I been buying up 140 amax for my new bbls that should be here soon. I hope I don't have this problem cause I'll be like you with a lot bullets I can't shoot. Good luck at the match
 
#7
jonaddis84 said:
Wondering if anyone else out there is having issues running the 140 AMAX in an 8 twist? Ive chambered two Bartlein 5R 1-8 now, identical chambers, go +.001, using same brass, same powder that are just not shooting the AMAX. Shot probably 60 groups between the two barrels, powder charges ranging from 42.0-43.1, seating depth from .040 jump to .010 jam. All using H4350. All bullets from same lot. Have also shot factory ammo to rule out my reloading abilities haha.

Before you suggest possible bullet, brass, or chamber irregularities. My previous rifle was a Bartlein 8.5tw 5R, chambered with same reamer to same specs, using same brass, same powder, same lot of bullets. It shot regular 1/4" groups at 100.

I was at my wits end looking for issues with this new rifle, when I decided to try some 130 Bergers. Guessed at a load of 43.0 H4350 and jammed .005. I had just shot four 3-shot groups with different AMAX loads that the best was maybe 3/4", first 5-shot with the Bergers was sub .2". Wasnt a fluke either, have shot several similar groups since then, and now have bumped the charge up to 44.0 and shooting excellent at 2866 fps out of 21.75" barrel.

I got to the point searching for issues with the rifle after the second barrel did the same thing, that I re-chambered a good shape 308 take-off barrel I had, it was a 12tw, loaded a few rounds of 175 SMK up with Varget and shot a 1/2" 5 shot with that less than ideal setup.

Anyway. Has anyone experienced anything similar? Find a solution? I have 2000 AMAX Id hate to not be able to use them as I am a cheapass and the Bergers are $13 more per box.

Here's the proof...
eve4u5ym.jpg
Click to expand...

Check out this previous thread about differences in old vs. newer lots of factory loaded ammo.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting.../236169-hornady-140-amax-ammo-old-vs-new.html

You shot different bullets like you said and the gun/barrels shot fine. So with that being said it's not with the barrels especially since you have two doing the same thing. One barrel maybe the barrel but two on the same gun doing I'm going to say no.

Bullets/ammo do vary from lot to lot. I've seen cases where a previous lot bullets would even fail (come apart/blow up) and the next lot is fine. In that case it did it with three different barrels (6mm and not Hornady bullets just as a fyi).

Also have seen bullets where one lot is fine and the next lot can foul horribly and effect accuracy. Go to a different lot or a different maker and the gun/barrel is fine and the fouling stops etc....This happened with one bullet maker about 1-2 years ago and it effected three to four different calibers. Seen it happen also with another bullet maker about 15 years ago or so but it was only with one caliber and one bullet type.

The difference between the 1-8 twist and a 1-8.5 won't give you the problem your having.

Give Hornady a call would be my suggestion.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
#8
On my son's 6.5 I found a decent load at 42 GRS H4350 with 140 Amax so I jumped to 42.4 GRS and the group went to shit so I went back to 42 and loaded 42.1,42.2 and 42.3.42.2 shoots great.If I had not did that I would still be chasing a load,so now I trickle charge all the loads for that rifle.1/10 of a grain made a big difference.
 
#9
What is the lot number on the bullets? There was a bad lot of 140amax a while back. Those wouldn't group better then 3/4 Moa and most 1 Moa in my rock 8tw. Good 140 Amax shoot .2-.3 in same barrel with 42.9 of 4350 @ 2860fps. .010 jump.

i believe the bad lot number was 2120211...
 
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#10
Jon,

We have been seeing the same thing with 140 AMAXS. I've built a bunch of 260s lately, on various tubes (mostly Bartlien), all but 1 will NOT shoot AMAXs. Sierra, Berger, Lapua, Nosler hammer. Strangely the Hornady 140 bthp seem to do ok.

Good luck at the Brawl!!
 
#11
I know Dan Newberry talks about the nodes being roughly 3% apart ( scatter node, accuracy node), your load window is less than 3% ( 1.275gr) maybe your just under or over a node? Load up a little higher if no pressure or a little lower.
 
#12
Give the Hornady 140bthp a try. They are shooting great in my creedmoor and like you I'm having difficulty finding a good load with the Amax. Funny though the loaded 140 Amax ammo shot great in my rifle. All my ammo and components were purchased in the last six months.
 
#13
Some barrels just do not like the AMAX no matter what you do. Our club has had issues with the AMAX in Rock barrels so it is probably the bullet.

Check out the new Barnes Match Burners in 140gr.

As a side note, guys that are running above a 42 gr powder charge, are you having issues with loose primer pockets?
 
#16
Same issues for me. I shot 100 new factory loaded 140 amax out of a rock 1/8 barrel yesterday. Best group of the day was around 3/4 inch. Most were close to 2 inches. Nasty. It was so ugly I went home and took apart my rifle and rechecked all my torques. Everything was fine. And the 100 I shot fouled up the barrel horribly. I usually only clean every 6-700 rounds. But the barrel was fresh when I went to the range.
 
#17
Well, have to give a huge thanks to Frank Green for getting me the barrel in such a hurry to rule that part out. Ended up taking 10th at the Bushnell Brawl with the rifle shooting the 130vld.

Had quite a stressful week leading into the match. Started with these amax issues. Then once I found out the bergers shot on Tuesday, only had like 60 left, so had to overnight some. Never touched seating die, loaded 200 for the brawl from the new lot. Dumbass move on my part, never tested any from new lot...

Get to San Antonio, thank God we decided to hit a local range before rifles only to check zero. Went to chamber a round and wouldn't go. Went to extract and powder goes flying everywhere, bullet stuck in barrel. Long story short after a lot of phone calls, a guy at the range offered to use his press at his house a few minutes away. Had a 7-08 seater die, ended up having to seat them about .1" deeper to get them to chamber easy. Yada yada yada...

Still haven't fired rifle. Three minutes at 8 am to confirm 100yd zero. Not knowing if I'm going to be way over pressure now due to seating depth change. First shot low left (fouler, had run a few patches at range). Next three dead on my previous zero in about .3" group! ! Cue biggest sigh of relief ever!

Used shooter dope all weekend, first round on the 1.5 moa target at 1k in 15mph winds holding on center hit 1mil left dead on elevation, hold over now, next two center punch. Match was most challenging shooting I've ever done, tons of fun, and extremely well run.

Now to figure out what happened with the new lot of bullets when I get home.....

Thanks again Frank!

Galaxy S3 on tapatalk
 
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#18
Update:

1. Sent 15 bullets from this lot back to hornady for testing, they found them to not meet their accuracy standards, Im not sure if they have some proprietary rating system, but he mentioned the number 1.1 which I assume was MOA. That would be about right as that was what I was getting with them. They sent me a return tag and will be replacing all 2000 of them that I have. Even though it was quite frustrating, and I wasted a lot of powder, primers, and time figuring it out; its good to see they are at least taking care of what I could expect them to.

2. Issue with live rounds not ejecting at Bushnell Brawl with 130VLD. Got home and measured the bullets at 0.2648-0.2649 in diameter. Kind of difficult to measure the freebore on my reamer with any accuracy to that far right of the decimal, but I believe it is spec'd at 0.2645 which would definitely explain my problems with them. How the bullets shot so well without any pressure is beyond me, especially since I was loading 44.0 of H4350 behind them, and had to seat the bullets 0.1" deeper to get them to even chamber easily. Will update once I get this issue resolved with Berger, still working with them on it.
 
#25
I sent them 19 full boxes, 2 partial, and 3 empty. They are replacing all 24 boxes once they have another production run. They "said" warranty orders take precedence over all retail orders so hopefully that's true.

I had a bad lot of 130 vld Berger at the same time go back. Sent 8 full and 2 empty, they had a distributor send back 15 boxes to replace mine quickly, was very pleased with Berger there!

Galaxy S3 on tapatalk
 
#26
Glad I found this thread…My gunsmith and I have had a big drama with my new barrel, or so we thought.

I am reloading 140 Amax"s batch no-2130191 and they are lucky to shoot 1 moa at 100 yds, more likely to get 2 moa, no matter what tweaking I do. The action is a Defiance Rebel with a heavy Pac-Nor 1 in 8 twist. This rifle will shoot 142 SMK's into 3/8 moa all the way to 500 yds easily. We initially thought the first barrel was a dud, so we put another one on only to get the same results with the 140 Amax.

You can tell when something is going really wrong…


It seems that post number 20 has mentioned issues with the same batch. Would appreciate any more updates as I need to get this info to my retailer here in Australia as I have 500 projectiles to sort out! Thanks.
 
#28
Damn it now ya'll have me worried. I have lot #2130190 and have had less than stellar results with load development so far in my 1-8 Noveske barrel. I have some 2131941 also so maybe I should try another workup with those.
 
#30
that's real fk!!! great, pick my creedmore up next week, and it happens all my bullets I have gathered up are those lots, thanks 4 the info though.
 
#33
I came across this thread last night and had to run and check the lot number of the bullets I just bought. Sure enough, they are lot #2130191. So, I loaded up a batch of five rounds before going to bed and I tested them this morning. This load usually shoots one hole groups in the .2s and .3s.



I'm glad I found this thread, as it's probably just saved me from going prematurely bald.

ETA: This is from my Tikka in 6.5x55 using Rel-17 and is easily the worst group this rifle has ever shot.
John
 
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#38
I too am glad I saw this thread. Just received 300 6.5mm A-Max 140's; all lot # 2030191. Of course that's one of the lots that has problems (according to Joop, beerhunter and jonaddis above.) I'll call Hornady CS today and ask them how to proceed. Don't want to waste a bunch of time & trouble loading and shooting bullets that are known to be likely out of spec from other's experience. Will let everyone know what Hornady says; and thanks to everyone for their reports on the potential problem lots.
 
#39
I called them the other day and they are not admitting to getting alot of calls on this problem.With only 7 to 8 people in customer service,the one I talked to could not recall any phone calls on this issue.He said if they did they would handle it on a 1 on 1 situation and you have to send them some bullets in to be inspected.
 
#44
I have around 800-900 140 amax left, and in my Savage 12 LRP they shot fine. And by fine I mean .3-.4 moa @ 300 yards. I'll check my lot numbers and report back just for future reference to anyone else that finds this thread.

 
#46
Another gun that won't shoot lot 190... I'm glad I saw this cause I was gonna give up on this bullet but I'll try some from another lot I have. Still have 600 of the 190 l'll have to see if Hornady will test and replace
 
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