6.5CM Who's to blame for bad stats

[Brisendines]

I've been reloading pistol on a progressive dillon SDB for quite a while, but somewhat new to rifle reloading. I've reloaded for cost previously, but the past year or so I've been working on precision 6.5 Creedmoor loading. Firing out of an RPR with factory P-Mags. I've done ladder tests, OCW tests, and a combination of the two. However, my SD and ES numbers have never been anything to write home about, and I'm getting a bit frustrated. I bought 200 Hornady American Gunner rounds to break in the barrel and sight in the scope, but found that they performed pretty well even at long range so I've continued to shoot them as my main ammo source. I've clocked them around 2650 fps with SD of 15, ES of 70 for about 25 round sample size.

The Process:
I'm using an RCBS single stage press with Hornady match grade bushing dies. I use imperial sizing wax, full-length resize, and trim each firing on a Hornady L&L trimmer. I've experimented with annealing each firing using a propane torch. I then clean primer pockets with a hand-held tool, press-seat primers, auto-charge up to 1gr away then hand trickle the rest of the charge on a gempro 250 scale. Finally I seat the bullets and measure each round to ogive using Hornady's tool.

The Components:
I've been using the Hornady cases from the American Gunner ammo because I had them. Everyone seems to unanimously recommend Hodgen H4350 so I haven't tried anything else. I also had a brick of Winchester LR primers, so I've been using them. I bought some CCI BR2 and CCI 250 LRM primers (after my disappointment) but I haven't fired any of those rounds yet. I started with 140gr SMK, then went to 150gr SMK chasing BC. I realized after researching that I shouldn't chase BC alone, so I went to Hornady's 140gr ELD-M, and I also bought some 147gr ELD-Ms.

The Results:
My go-to load (best after ladder testing the 140gr ELD-Ms) is 42.2gr H4350 loaded as long as my Pmag in my RPR which is around 2.820", round is 2.210" COAL. My SDs have never been single digit and I can't seem to really make them perform any better than the American Gunner that comes loose inside a plastic ammo can at $.80 a round.

The Concerns:
I have faith in the rifle (have seen incredible results when I'm doing my job). I also have faith in the press and dies. I know they're not top of the line, but I know that they are capable of better results than I'm seeing. Feel free to change my mind.
I have confidence in the H4350 powder. (let's be honest- I need to limit the number of variables in the equation or I'll burn out the barrel before I find something I like)
The Hornady cases are probably not as good as Lapua cases, but I've been cheap and don't want to spend more for a piece of brass than a loaded round that I has OK results at 1000yd. Wondering about trying Starline SRP brass.
I've also wondered about the AICS or American Rifle Company mag in the RPR to get more COAL. The head space gauge from Hornady shows my chamber is fairly long, so I'm jumping the rounds a decent amount. Ex- 147gr. ELD-M jumping .015" is 2.275" to ogive, but mag length is 2.166". That seems like way too far for me, but I don't know any better. I've tried loading the 150s and 147s single feed, but don't feel that's practical. I think the 140s are where it's at with the creedmoor, but I'm open to suggestions.

Long story short, I'm lost as to what/which components are under performing. If anyone feels charitable and would like to offer suggestions I'm all ears.

 

[Expert684]

I struggled with my RPR and the loads for the 6.5. Get longer mags, i went with Alpha. I figured out that my problem is Hornady brass volume is all over the map. Cases vary as much as 7 grains. Just bought Peterson brass and weights vary only about 1 grain. Peterson is also alot heavier about 30 grains a case. I found that 140 ELD and 140 Hybrids shot the best at .013 and 014” off the lands thus the longer mags. 41.2-41.6 of H4350 should get you in the ball park with Hornady brass. You’ll need to weight sort them if you don’t want to change brands. I’m in the final stages of load development with the Peterson brass. Good luck! It will come around for you!

 

[JMGlasgow]

I also gave up on Hornady brass. I switched to Alpha Munitions and I haven't looked back.

 

[Codiekfx400]

Weight sort the brass. Try some federal 210M primers. A custom barrel would be the next thing to try.

 

[Lunchbox27]

Check your neck tension. I run Hornady brass, CCI200 primers and RL16 over a run of the mill Hornady 140 grain match HPBT. I pull off single digit SD, but my neck tension is consistently 2 thou. When I was at 4 thou, it was in the mid teens.

Now for the kicker...

2 thou neck tension - mid single digit SD

vs

4 thou neck tension - mid teen SD

I cannot tell the difference at distance at all on steel. If I were to shoot paper groups (F class/Benchrest) I would care more. At this point, so long as I"m in the mid teens, I'm hitting my target. Spend more time shooting, less at the bench.

 

[OLD308]

Propane torch annealing most likely is giving you inconsistent results. Yes it can work. Bushing dies in the hands of new reloaders cause more problems that not. So a Concentricity Gauge would help. You never specified group size or distances. The new (last 5 years) gempro 250 scale is not the scale it was 10 years ago. Too many variables to pin point an issue. Add to that, what kinda of shooter are you?

I would dump the torch, Hornady dies early anyway through the primer pockets. Buy a $35 FL sizing die. Borrow a old beam scale to check charges. Forget the chronograph and go off group sizes. Ladder test loads at 200 yard. Shoot multiple 5 shot groups at 300 yards. Then see were your at.

Reloading is just like learning to walk. Crawl around using the basic methods to build your foundation and stability. Then if you must run all the advanced methods you want. Good luck and keep at it.

 

[Fig]

Lots of good advice. I would also check my run-out of loaded cartridges. When I switched from RCBS to a Forster my run-out gage (that I had to run every cartridge through) now gathers dust. There's a reason that bench rest guys use hand dies and an auger press.

 

[Rob01]

First get longer mags. The AR style Pmags are a waste in a bolt gun and not sure why they still keep sending them with RPRs other than they are cheap.

Hornady brass works fine. I get single digit SDs with them since 2008. All I do is clean, size(.002 neck tension bump shoulder back .001"), trim, chamfer, deburr with a Giraud, clean primer pockets then prime and load. You may be messing up the brass if you are not annealing properly. Have you don't it before and know how to do it?

H4350 is a given in the Creedmoor and the 140 ELDs work fine too. You can try and load them .020" off the lands. It's a good place to start and I rarely move from it with any Hornady bullet. I only loaded the 147 ELDs at .030" off to give a little more room in the mag.

Lastly you have to remember it is a factory barrel. Some are great. Some not so much. I would try some brass not annealed and see how it does. Weighing brass is a waste of time. It doesn't give you what you are looking for which is internal capacity. If you wanted to go down that rabbit hole then you would need to actually do water testing of each piece.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Long story short, I'm lost as to what/which components are under performing. If anyone feels charitable and would like to offer suggestions I'm all ears.

Aren't you the only one that can start eliminating the variables one by one. Not being a dick, but just because starline brass works for me, what makes it the best for you?
You say you have a single digit sd load that really doesn't shoot. I say buy a diff mag and play with your seat depths. If now the load is no longer single digits, you need to change something, or if it shoots good with higher numbers, shoot the load. Results on target trumps numbers all day.
If this fails, buy 50-100 pcs of diff brass, try that, if it seems to improve, but not to your satisfaction, try a diff bullet.
If you end up wasting a barrel figuring this out, so be it, not the end of the world if you learn.
As an outsider looking in, you were hamstrung by mag length from the start, and switching bullets 3 times for the same results when you could have bought the bullet used in American gunner ammo and just made a more accurate version of it.

 

[Brisendines]

I've never gotten single digit SDs... I wish I had. Sounds like mags are a must-followed by either sorting brass or buying new. Might try weight sorting the brass and get all similar weights to see if that helps. I have about 800 cases at this point, so I should be able to be pretty picky. Would <.2gr difference be enough?
As far as me, I used to shoot a decent amount but feel off for the past year or so. I've done two PRS style events and a token F class match for fun. But mostly been shooting steel 500-1000 yards or paper 100-300 yards. I hope to take a course with mile high this year because I most definitely need work on the basics. That's the big reason I liked going with the velocity data- my thinking is I shouldn't be able to influence that as much as the accuracy.

 

[Rob01]

Weight sorting is a waste. If you get that anal then do it the right way and get the water capacity. That will actually tell you what you need.

I would try some of your brass you haven't annealed and load it up and see how it does.

 

[briang7511]

I went thru a similar experience with my 6.5 creed. No matter what i did lowest es/sd was in the teens. I went to the extent of buying the A&D fx120 loader scale combo thinking my chargemaster was at fault. I was extremely baffled that i could not produce ammo slightly better than hornady box 140eldm match. I had several 260s before that with lapua brass that i could load single digits on the chargemaster. You start to question your reloading practices and wonder why am i going backwards here. Anyways, I wore that barrel out and rebarreled to 6 creed. Starting out with break in i was using hornady brass and again best i could do was teens on es/sd. only component i changed was brass, i switched to alpha munitions. first time out with a ladder test i had loads in the single digit. Same A&D fx120 scale, same rcbs single stage press, same hornady 6 creed dies and same lot of RL16 powder. If you decide alpha brass is worth a look you will find that about 1.0-1.1 grain of powder less than hornady brass will yield same velocity. No weight sorting just FL sized, chamfered and deburred. 210m primer. Just my experience. Yours may differ.

 

[Brisendines]

I only annealed about 50 cases, then I put them over a Chrono to see if they had more even neck tension. Didn't seem to have any real advantage.
It may be worth doing a water weight test but I'll probably be ordering some cases and magazines.

 

[918v]

Propane torch annealing most likely is giving you inconsistent results. Yes it can work. Bushing dies in the hands of new reloaders cause more problems that not. So a Concentricity Gauge would help. You never specified group size or distances. The new (last 5 years) gempro 250 scale is not the scale it was 10 years ago. Too many variables to pin point an issue. Add to that, what kinda of shooter are you?

I would dump the torch...

Exactly

 

[Huskydriver]

You never said how it was grouping on paper? If your simply SD and es chasing but shooting .5 who cares as long as your es is less than 35 most people can't shoot the difference anyways

 

[briang7511]

i agree it takes a bit of skill to get nice groups at 1k yards, but removing the variable of the ammo only helps. A spread of 35 fps is probably a 18in group at 1k. A 5 fps is capable of a 6 in group or better. Now stretch that our further. If your not shooting past a few hundred yards small ES is not that important.

 

[Huskydriver]

i agree it takes a bit of skill to get nice groups at 1k yards, but removing the variable of the ammo only helps. A spread of 35 fps is probably a 18in group at 1k. A 5 fps is capable of a 6 in group or better. Now stretch that our further. If your not shooting past a few hundred yards small ES is not that important.

35 fps at 1k is just over 7" not 18"....again hardly any of us can shoot that difference

 

[clcustom1911]

Weight sort the brass. Try some federal 210M primers. A custom barrel would be the next thing to try.

FED 210M primers and don't look back. When I switched to those my SD's went from 12-15 down to single digits with H4350. Hornady brass is very inconsistent as far as Weight goes. You'll need to weigh every single one and toss the high and low outliers.

10 pieces of brass may weigh 165 grains, the majority may weigh between 150-155, and the low 5 may weigh 140-145. After full length sizing all of them, the only difference will be interior volume. That variation of 20 grains from one can to another will cause a large velocity spread. Even a 15 grain spread from high to low causes a noticeable difference in velocity.

When it comes to brass, I'm no benchrest geek, but I like to keep my brass +/- 5 grains of the average weight. That works for my purposes of "2 minute-o-steel" or better at most of my yardage out to 1200 or so.

Did I say Federal 210M primers? Because of I didn't, then you should try 210M primers because 210M primers are excellent.


210M primers.

???

 

[Rob01]

Standard 210 primers work the exact same if you can't find 210M or wanted to save some money.

 

[briang7511]

sure 7 inches is the mathematical difference but since hardly any of us can shoot that difference, its more like 18 with all other factors considered.

 

[clcustom1911]

You never said how it was grouping on paper? If your simply SD and es chasing but shooting .5 who cares as long as your es is less than 35 most people can't shoot the difference anyways

I do agree with this. For the most part, as long as my SD's hold between 8-12 and ES of 20-40 then I'm a very happy guy.

 

[Brisendines]

My groups on paper have been solely dependent on me. I've bug holed 20 rounds of cheap ammo, and I've blown up match grade groups. My groups have all been around 100 yards, no long distance paper work. Was going to do that this weekend but wasn't able to get to the range.
I am just chasing numbers here so I can take the ammo variation out of my mind, and eventually I plan on becoming a better shooter so I'll want a good load. ?