Range Report 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

[StoneCold]

Just asking a question here. Why do so many guys pick the 6.5's over the 7mm's ? The 7's seem to have a lot going for them. Yet most people pick the 6.5's. Is it because the 7 has some sort of anomoly at range?

Even the most experienced long range competitors pick a 6.5 over a 7. David Tubb has tried most and now uses a 6mm, but had used a 6.5, .308...no 7mm IIRC.

Even PGS just built 2 .260's. I know he shoots alot...6mm's, .308's, and now 6.5's....

Enlighten me.

StoneCold

 

[glock24]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

My <span style="font-style: italic">guess</span> is that it has to do with the lack of available cartridges. I had that problem when I went shopping. If you think about it, what options are out there in a short-action, non-magnum cartridge with good neck dimensions, room to load the long 180g VLD bullets, and enough gas in the tank to drive them to at least 2700 fps? And you need the 180 grainers in 7mm to compete with the best 6.5mms. 7mm-08 Remington just can't get it done.

Nope, I think you're stuck running a 280 Remington or 284 Winchester in a long action, and most guys don't want to do that. It is really too bad,as those are very good options.

One caveat; I've often wondered about necking the 30 Remington AR down to 7mm. It seems like the shorter, fatter case would allow the 180g VLDs to seat out further, creating room for additional powder.

 

[ranger1183]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

Regarding the the 30 Remington AR, where do you get brass for this thing?

 

[RobertB]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

Didn't realize how short those cases were till I was at MOJO's outdoors the other day and Murry showed me one. I was interested in one till I saw it. Not saying I like Big cartridges but the ballistics on them must suck. They say its not as bad as you would think but I think I will stick to my .223-.243 for my varmit rig

 

[ranger1183]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

I wonder if <span style="text-decoration: line-through">these </span>are actually 30 Remington AR?

nope! that's the parent case for the 6mm HAGAR.

http://www.6mmhagar.com/

 

[BobinNC]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

Well, before we just announce the 6.5mm the winner by default let's examine some numbers, for both a .260 Remington and the way "too small" 7mm-08 Remington.

The following are all @ 1Kyds, Windage @ 10 MPH, and illustrated are velocities that can be obtained in a 260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 7mm-08, with barrel lengths from 22" to 26".

First: Berger 6.5mm Short 140 gr BT @ 2850 FPS

1000 Drop Mils -8.1 MOA -27.9 Windage Mils 1.9 MOA 6.6

Next Hornady 7mm 162 Grain A-MAX @ 2700 FPS

1000 Drop Mils -8.8 MOA -30.4 Windage Mils 1.9 MOA 6.6

Next Berger 7mm 168 gr VLD @ 2675 FPS

1000 Drop Mils -8.9 MOA -30.6 Windage Mils 1.9 MOA 6.4

Finally Berger 7mm 180 Gr Short BT @ 2575 FPS

1000 Drop Mils -9.8 MOA -33.6 Windage Mils 2.0 MOA 6.9

Now if somebody wants to make a case for the vast superiority of a 140 gr 6.5mm bullet out a 260 Rem, vs the small and under performing 7mm-08, be my guest.

Barrel life, always an important consideration, is going to be 1,000 to 1500 rounds better with a 7mm08 vs a 260.

Sorry, I know the 260 Rem. (or 6.5 Creedmoor) is popular as a tactical cartridge, but I fail to find it being vastly better than a 7mm-08. Really they are both very good, and either will shoot rings around a good 308 Winchester.

In the interests of full disclosure, I'm building a 7mm-08. I think the potential is there, now to prove the theory.

Bob

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

BobinNC,
Post a link to your 7-08 thread. I would like to catch up.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

Sure, Here you go:

7mm08 and Heavy Target Bullets Post

 

[glock24]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

Bob,

You make a good case for 7mm-08, and I'm certainly not claiming 6.5mm superiority, but it seems your performance numbers with the 7mm-08 / 180g combo could be <span style="font-style: italic">even better</span> if there was room in the action to seat the bullet out further.

Maybe it is just more incorrect conventional wisdom, but I always try to design my chambers to seat the bullet's boat-tail/body junction just ahead of the case's neck/shoulder junction. This optimizes case capacity and eliminates potential doughnut problems.

If we could get only another 100 fps out of that 7mm-08, it would have everyone's attention.

This thread isn't about trashing 7mms, but rather trying to explain current trends. Maybe you're right about the short-sightedness. I know a couple years ago everyone would have laughed at a 200 grainer out of a 308!

 

[StoneCold]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

Exactly. I am not trashing a 7 at all. In fact I think they have alot of potential. The reason for my question is like Glock24 said: Why are they not being used in competition - be it tactical, long range, ftr, whatever. Why are the 6.5's being used?

I was guessing it might be because they have too great of a spread in velocity from shot to shot, or too much vertical at range. Or ?? There has to be a reason. As Bob said they can compare quite well to the 6.5's, and yet people are shooting both sides of it and not the 7 itself.

Just something I want to know......

StoneCold

 

[ranger1183]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

It’s the proverbial elephant in the room. If there was a great .277 caliber match bullet that had such an outstanding B.C. as to require a 1:7 or 1:8 twist barrel, both the 6.5mm and 7mm would be facing a serious new competitor.

 

[Advokaten]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

I might be just a silly shooter from Sweden however,

as long as we are just killing paper, the only quest there is, is for precision and god numbers for wind,

so in short as the better bullets has arrived in 6/6,5 mm there is little need for 7 mm or larger bullets.

Mr Litz has written a great paper on this, a high BC projo in 6,5 mm is optimaly around 140 grain, for 7 mm it´s around 180 grain and for .30 cal 240 ish or so.

For a 6 mm projo to have great BC it should be around 110 grain or so.

Looking at it this way it´s clear that one uses less powder and then also less recoil to shoot the smaller cals at long ranges.

Add the idea of having retained energy to kill somethinf downrange well then the 7 mm like 264/7 mm Rem mag with 160 AB and 168/180 Berger VLD bullets are like few others and stand out well above the crowd.

To match a 7 Rem mag with 180 Berger one needs to shoot 210/240 is out of a 300 WM or faster .30 cal case yet again recoil is becoming a factor.

Just looking at my own shooting, doing 200 rounds out of my 6 mm TCU ie 75 grain V-max @ 840 m/s is a pure joy when doing the same with a 300 Win mag is a no go for me, my shooting goes sour long before I reach the 200 round count.

I might be rambeling however I find that my thinking works for me.

Best regards Chris

 

[captrichardson]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

Very good topic & discussion,

Actually the 7mm is being used in competition, the Brits just used a 7mm WSM in the 2009 F-Class World Championships to beat the US F-Open Team.

2009 F-Class World Championships

Actually the US was also beat at the last championship by the South Africans shooting 7mms.

Some people say the writing is on the wall for future competitions, bring a 7mm or don’t expect to win!

Per some of the posts above, the 7mm can outshoot the 6.5mm, but it takes a "heavy" bullet and a "magnum" cartridge to launch them. That is not a good combination for a lot of folks because recoil and barrel life are both issues. Rumor has it, the Brits were doing barrel changes on their 7mm WSM rifles with as little as 700 rounds down the barrel. In competitions like F-Class were Muzzle Brakes are not allowed, I am also sure there were a lot of "beat up" individuals at the end of the matches.

I have really been considering a 7mm build, but given the issues of barrel life and recoil, I will stick with my Remington 260. At this point it can shoot better than me!

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

PS: if you don't follow F-Class competition, then you might want to, along with the Benchrest Crowd, they are the ones who are usually pushing rifle and cartridge performance to the limits.

If you are not already familiar with it, you really should check out the 6mmBR site:
6mmBR
The Accurate Shooter Bulletin on the site will keep you up to date on the latest & greatest:
Accurate Shooter Bulletin

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

Coupla items.

For F Class, a single shot rifle is not at a disadvantage. Further, a 'long action cartridge' may not be, in a single shot.

There is no magazine that needs to experience a long bolt stroke. For .30-'06 length cartridges, an empty case <span style="font-style: italic">should</span> extract and eject pretty well from a so-called 'short action'. Try this with an empty .30-'06 case in your .308 action. It won't close, but it should extract and eject without any excitement.

For a loaded cartridge that needs extraction and ejection, this is actually, probably a fairly rare event. On such rare occasions, tripping the bolt release will permit bolt over-travel, and resolve the extraction/ejection issue.

So, this essentially negates the objections to a .280 Rem chambering. What the .06 will do, it will also do; only with a higher sectional density.

Ten years ago, I wouldn't have looked at it twice. But in those ten years, the bullet selection has shifted from mostly hunting bullets to include some pretty prestigious match bullet selections. Where the 7WSM beats and burns, the .280 Rem does much of the same work with less of the above. Maybe less of the work, but more than enough of it, IMHO.

It's my considered opinion that what the .260 does as a means of utilizing the .308's case capacity in a more efficient fashion, the .280 does likewise with the '06's.

Greg

 

[RayDog]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

I shoot a 260 and a 7wsm. The data cards could be interchanged out to 1k. The 7 will hit harder using more powder and giving a little more recoil. So for the tactical type matches I shoot the 260 is a little easier to shoot well in matches. If I was going to kill something or take to the field it would be my 7wsm with the 180 VLDs at 2970.

 

[kyreloader]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: captrichardson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very good topic & discussion,

Actually the 7mm is being used in competition, the Brits just used a 7mm WSM in the 2009 F-Class World Championships to beat the US F-Open Team.

2009 F-Class World Championships

Actually the US was also beat at the last championship by the South Africans shooting 7mms.

Some people say the writing is on the wall for future competitions, bring a 7mm or don’t expect to win!

Per some of the posts above, the 7mm can outshoot the 6.5mm, but it takes a "heavy" bullet and a "magnum" cartridge to launch them. That is not a good combination for a lot of folks because recoil and barrel life are both issues. Rumor has it, the Brits were doing barrel changes on their 7mm WSM rifles with as little as 700 rounds down the barrel. In competitions like F-Class were Muzzle Brakes are not allowed, I am also sure there were a lot of "beat up" individuals at the end of the matches.

I have really been considering a 7mm build, but given the issues of barrel life and recoil, I will stick with my Remington 260. At this point it can shoot better than me!

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

PS: if you don't follow F-Class competition, then you might want to, along with the Benchrest Crowd, they are the ones who are usually pushing rifle and cartridge performance to the limits.

If you are not already familiar with it, you really should check out the 6mmBR site:
6mmBR
The Accurate Shooter Bulletin on the site will keep you up to date on the latest & greatest:
Accurate Shooter Bulletin </div></div>

As per barrel life, how would your 260 compare to a 284? Which has better ballistics shooting at 1000 yards, 140g JLK in 260 or 180g Berger Hybrid in the 284?

Lastly, in my experience, the same gun that was rebarreled from 6.5x284 to 284, I noticed no worsening in recoil. My brother had his 308 rebarreled to 284 noticed lessening of recoil. Again, just our experience and not sure the calculators would uphold our experience..

 

[captrichardson]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

IMHO, "Barrel Life" is not a hard and fast number per say.

A number of factors determine how long a barrel is going to last to include:
- material used to make the barrel
- workmanship used to make the barrel
- type of loads used in the barrel
- cleaning and maintenance techniques

Start with average quality steel, use average quality workmanship, shoot hot loads, and use poor cleaning techniques, and your barrel life will be short lived. Use the best materials and workmanship, shoot medium loads, and use proper cleaning techniques and you may double the round count of the previous example.

You also have to look at what criteria is used to determine if a barrel is shot out? Is a barrel shot out when the accuracy starts to degrade the least little bit, or when it can no longer hold 1 MOA?

Typical Barrel Life on a 6.5-284 is reported to be around 800-1,000 rounds.
6mmBR - 6.5-284 Data
The 6mmBR data identifies the major drawback of the 6.5-284 as being barrel life.

In terms of the .260, plenty of shooters have 2,000-2,500 rounds through their barrels and they are still holding their accuracy.
Zak Smith's "6.5 Shootout" article has a lot of great info in it:
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/

Sorry, but I know nothing about a straight .284 Winchester round.

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

 

[kyreloader]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

6br.com claims 3000

http://www.6mmbr.com/7mm284.html

 

[JWV]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

It depends on what type of shooting you do. If it is Fclass or Benchrest, expect it to be significantly less then if you were just doing some occasional plinking or hunting.

 

[blue_ridge]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swedish guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I might be just a silly shooter from Sweden however,

as long as we are just killing paper, the only quest there is, is for precision and god numbers for wind,

so in short as the better bullets has arrived in 6/6,5 mm there is little need for 7 mm or larger bullets.

Mr Litz has written a great paper on this, a high BC projo in 6,5 mm is optimaly around 140 grain, for 7 mm it´s around 180 grain and for .30 cal 240 ish or so.

For a 6 mm projo to have great BC it should be around 110 grain or so.

Looking at it this way it´s clear that one uses less powder and then also less recoil to shoot the smaller cals at long ranges.

Add the idea of having retained energy to kill somethinf downrange well then the 7 mm like 264/7 mm Rem mag with 160 AB and 168/180 Berger VLD bullets are like few others and stand out well above the crowd.

To match a 7 Rem mag with 180 Berger one needs to shoot 210/240 is out of a 300 WM or faster .30 cal case yet again recoil is becoming a factor.

Just looking at my own shooting, doing 200 rounds out of my 6 mm TCU ie 75 grain V-max @ 840 m/s is a pure joy when doing the same with a 300 Win mag is a no go for me, my shooting goes sour long before I reach the 200 round count.

I might be rambeling however I find that my thinking works for me.

Best regards Chris </div></div>

I may be missing something here, but the 7mm Hornady 162gr. Amax has a BC of .625 compared to .615 for Lapua's 6.5mm 139gr. Scenar. So, I don't see why you need push 180gr. out of a 7mm cartridge to make it compete with 6.5 cartridges.

 

[bohem]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blue_ridge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I may be missing something here, but the 7mm Hornady 162gr. Amax has a BC of .625 compared to .615 for Lapua's 6.5mm 139gr. Scenar. So, I don't see why you need push 180gr. out of a 7mm cartridge to make it compete
with 6.5 cartridges. </div></div>

The 162 Amax is about 25 points lower than hornady claims.

Berger's BC's on the box are actual test data instead of theoretical calcs now.

You are right, you don't need 180gr bullet from a 7mm to compete with the 6.5's, the 168 Bergers are excellent and will easily compete with a 140 Berger in 6.5mm. The BC's are only different by a few points and a case like the 7-08 will push the 168's about the same as the 260 shoots a 140. They're not identical, but very close.

 

[blue_ridge]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

Bohem, Thanks for the clarification. So, I'm building a Rem700 short action with AICS mags for tactical purposes mostly. Am comparing Pros & Cons between 260, 6.5 Creedmoor, 7-08 and 6.5x47. So I'm going down the same road a thousand guys before have and am sure there isn't much new to consider. Here's where I'm split at the moment.

For ease of loading, 6.5x47 may be best because I can use Lapua brass straight out of the box. 7-08 I could use Winchester brass and probably be in good shape. 6.5 Creedmoor could use Hornady brass, although have heard it is softer than Winchester and Lapua. 260, I'd have to wrestle with Rem brass or spend extra time forming 243 and 308 brass.

Ballistically, it seems to me anyway, all four cartridges are within spittin distance of each other out to 1000 yds. 6.5x47 is the smallest, but can operate at higher pressures. Not to mention many report that it is not finicky at all and is easy to load for. I was leaning toward 260 because it is hard to beat a simple 308 necked down. But the more I consider other factors, I find myself weighing differences between Hornady Creedmoor brass, Lapua 6.5x47 brass and Winchester brass for the 7-08. For the price and quality, I wonder if Winchester 7-08 brass might be the way to go. Then decide if I use it for 7-08 or neck it down for 260. Not sure if I want to have to fireform brass to get Ackley chamberings either. Is Winchester brass better than the Hornady brass that 6.5 Creedmoor uses?

 

[BobinNC]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

6.5x47 Lapua Brass per 1000 = $840.

6.5 Creedmoor Hornady Brass per 1000 = $592.

WW 7mm-08 Brass per 1000 = $399.

I'm not making a recommendation, one way or the other, as the performance is excellent with all these rounds/brass.

Bob

 

[bohem]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

blue_ridge-

I shoot Win 243 brass in my 260. Since I neck size all new brass before doing any initial prep work to load it, I see it as a wash. Sizing from 6mm to 6.5mm can be done in one step.

Lapua makes 243 brass now to my knowledge, I don't know if you can get it with the small primer pocket like you can 308 palma brass. If you can, then the 260 can operate at the same pressures that the 6.5x47 does. The higher operating pressure is due to the head design (473 base with small pockets are good to about 90ksi before yield. Shooting them in the 75ksi range will give long brass life still)

You're right, they are all reasonably close at 1000yd.

The 6.5x47 fits into a short action magazine better than the 260, but the 260 can be done. For the matter of higher pressure brass, buying 308 Lapua Palma brass and 1 step neck down to 7mm-08 would give you 47L pressure levels with better bore life over anything else considered.

 

[blue_ridge]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

Bohem, Okay, so you neck size to start with because of your specific chamber or for uniformity?

Seems I've read people saying the longest 6.5's won't fit in AICS mags for the 260.

Lastly, I came across 7mm 168 JLK with a supposed .690 BC. Makes for an interesting option. Trying to find dimensions for some of these 6.5 and 7mm bullets so I can figure the min OAL possible without seating the bullet below the donut.

Bob, thanks for posting prices, appreciate that. is it possible you get your money back on Lapua cases because they last longer?

 

[bohem]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

The JLK BC you mentioned is theoretical, not real. They claim a 0.735 on the 180gr bullet but IIRC Bryan Litz's test had it very close to the 180 Berger. Their 6.5's have awesome BC's which are indeed higher than anyone else, but the 7's are on par with Berger as I remember.

I neck size new brass before loading every time for uniformity. It doesn't matter if I'm loading 30-06 in 30-06 brass or 7mm's in 270 brass, it all gets neck sized.

 

[captrichardson]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

When I built my .260, I was looking at the "Brass Options", and after talking to a lot of shooters, just went with the Remington.

If you take a little time to "work it up", I don't think that you are going to have any major issues. I can shoot single hole 5 shot groups at 100 yards, and I have shot plenty sub 10" groups at 1,000 yards using the Remington Brass.

If you are not happy with the Remington, and don't want to get into case forming, you also have the Brass from Norma and Nosler:
260 Brass at Midway

IMHO, unless you are a Benchrest Shooter, then the "hub bub" about brass is worrying about something that is not really going to mean a "hill of beans" compared to everything else going on. If I miss a steel plate at 1,000 yards in a match, I am willing to bet that it is because of my shooting abilities, not because I was using Remington Brass.

I am all for eliminating variables in all of your equipment, but IMHO at some point you are just "nit picking" something that will not consistently produce a result that you can see in the "real world of shooting".

Also, I have nothing against Hornady, I actually use a number of their products, but IMHO I would seriously think about getting into a round that is only supported by a single manufacturer. A short time ago, you could not get 6.5 Creedmoor Brass, so you were pretty much TSOL because there were no other off the shelf options to go with. As of now the supply has gone back up, but in general I try to steer clear of anything that only has a single source because if it goes away you don't have any other options to fall back on.

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

 

[BobinNC]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blue_ridge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bohem, Okay, so you neck size to start with because of your specific chamber or for uniformity?

Seems I've read people saying the longest 6.5's won't fit in AICS mags for the 260.

Lastly, I came across 7mm 168 JLK with a supposed .690 BC. Makes for an interesting option. Trying to find dimensions for some of these 6.5 and 7mm bullets so I can figure the min OAL possible without seating the bullet below the donut.

Bob, thanks for posting prices, appreciate that. is it possible you get your money back on Lapua cases because they last longer? </div></div>

Blue_Rige,

I sent you an E-Mail with a Spec sheet for Berger bullets. That will let you compute your COAL for their entire bullet line.

As far as getting your money back by using Lapua cases, it depends on how and where you shoot. On a square range you can recover all your brass. During a tactical match, and shooting from the weeds, you do tend to loose a bit of brass.

If Lapua brass is available for the caliber I'm shooting, I'll buy it and shoot it. But I would not buy Lapua .243 brass, to form 260 Rem cases, nor Lapua .308 brass to form 7mm-08 cases. As the work vs reward equation is not in my favor. Lapua generally has the lowest prep time and longest brass life, so the initial cost is mitigated.

When I have to case form, or measure, or trim and then neck turn, and the like, just to get my first case, then my ardor for Lapua begins to fade a bit, and I then make do with lessor brass from the likes of Remington or Winchester. You can make accurate loads from this brass, and if you lose a few, it's no big deal.

Hey, but that's just me. YMMV.

Bob

 

[blue_ridge]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

Wow, lots of good advice, thanks. Yeah I tend to over-analyze some of these finer details especially while I am waiting for parts to come in and trying to decide what to build. I keep coming back to 260 each time I get wrapped around the axle. Seems a hard cartridge to surpass given my needs. It'll also allow me to experiment with Lapua, Win, Rem, Nosler and Norma brass if i wish to go through that much trouble. As well as viable long range bullets in 123, 130 and 140 from Sierra, Lapua, Berger, Hornady, JLK and others to try.

I'll ask one more question if i haven't worn out my welcome yet. 260 chamber reamers - what leade/freebore to chamber for? My initial thought was about .050 freebore for 130VLD's thinking as it erodes over time I could switch to longer 140's. Also a 1.5 deg leade appears to be most successful. Anyone have advice on this matter? or even a specific reamer? I'm using AICS mags. (I've heard Stiller will modify them by removing front plate to increase max length from 2.80 to 2.95 or so. Not sure if this mod compromises the integrity of the mag though.) Thanks again.

Bob, I'm using t your Berger data now, very helpful thanks.,

 

[bohem]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

My 260 is a factory DPMS upper, factory chamber. I'm a big fan of the 1.5* leade angle for accuracy reasons. Keep in mind that the 130 and 140 JLK are the same shape, just a different core weight. I think this might be the same with the Bergers as well. This means that as the throat burns you won't net anything by switching to the heavier version. The 140 Amax has a shorter ogive than the VLD's though and still maintains a very good BC as well as being jump tolerant. Once the VLD's "wear out their welcome" you can switch to the 140 Amax.

I see a lot of people build a reamer around the idea that they want the VLD's seated at the optimum depth on the first round. IE, base of bearing surface to the base of the neck. I'm having my 7mm/300 WSM reamer setup with a shorter freebore so that the bullets are slightly deeper in the case at first but will "burn in" to the optimum point and then I can chase the lands for longer. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

For me it's a mattter related to case capacities and expansion ratios; the numbers that relate to whether a chambering is 'overbore' or not.

These have a relationship to action length.

For the shorter action, the more common parent chambering is the .308, and it's my opinion that the 6.5mm bore diameter permits the kind of expansion ratio that stays just under what's needed to make a case seriously overbore.

For the long action, the more common parent would be the .30-'06, and for that capacity the 7mm becomes more effective. Someday, somebody's going to take that chambering a lot more seriously, and heads will be turning.

I think that for the .30 caliber bore, we need to look to the magnum capacities; but I won't be doing that because of recoil, and because the .260 and .280 are already delivering all the performance I'd seek. <span style="font-style: italic">The balance between performance and bore life works for me.</span>

As said above, if the .277 suddenly experienced an appearance of seriously effective cruise missiles, the .270'd be a lot more interesting, but I think personally it'd be mostly a tossup vs the .280, and that may be why there's a drought of such bullets.

The Swede takes the long action and mates it with a .308 class case capacity, making the 6.5 more attractive.

Greg

 

[bohem]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

For the long action, the more common parent would be the .30-'06, and for that capacity the 7mm becomes more effective. <span style="font-weight: bold">Someday, somebody's going to take that chambering a lot more seriously, and heads will be turning.<span style="color: #000099"> My 7mm/270 was with quizzical looks until I hit 4 in a row from 275 - 1040 and then put together a 1/2 MOA group on paper at 1k with it... The case is an undersung hero, I love it. It's fun to amaze people at what capability it really has</span></span>

As said above, if the .277 suddenly experienced an appearance of seriously effective cruise missiles, the .270'd be a lot more interesting, but I think personally it'd be mostly a tossup vs the .280, and that may be why there's a drought of such bullets.

<span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-style: italic">I think you're right on here but doubt it'll be happening anytime soon because the large majority of 270's out there have twists which are too slow to stabilize a proper cruise missle. I have a 6.5-06 and it's majorly overbore. It needs barrel lengths in excess of 28" to really get to it's potential and I'm filling the cases up with Retumbo for the speeds I want. </span></span>
</div></div>

Another note: It might help it Big Green pulls their heads out of their asses when it comes to "new" calibers. They went the Macintosh Marketing route with the SAUM cases instead of the IBM/PC route like Winchester did with the WSM's... It's a shame too, that 7mm SAUM is a great case.

They clearly didn't learn their lesson from the 280 Remington (aka 7mm Express)

 

[blue_ridge]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

For the long action, the more common parent would be the .30-'06, and for that capacity the 7mm becomes more effective. <span style="font-weight: bold">Someday, somebody's going to take that chambering a lot more seriously, and heads will be turning.<span style="color: #000099"> My 7mm/270 was with quizzical looks until I hit 4 in a row from 275 - 1040 and then put together a 1/2 MOA group on paper at 1k with it... The case is an undersung hero, I love it. It's fun to amaze people at what capability it really has</span></span>

As said above, if the .277 suddenly experienced an appearance of seriously effective cruise missiles, the .270'd be a lot more interesting, but I think personally it'd be mostly a tossup vs the .280, and that may be why there's a drought of such bullets.

<span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-style: italic">I think you're right on here but doubt it'll be happening anytime soon because the large majority of 270's out there have twists which are too slow to stabilize a proper cruise missle. I have a 6.5-06 and it's majorly overbore. It needs barrel lengths in excess of 28" to really get to it's potential and I'm filling the cases up with Retumbo for the speeds I want. </span></span>
</div></div>

Another note: It might help it Big Green pulls their heads out of their asses when it comes to "new" calibers. They went the Macintosh Marketing route with the SAUM cases instead of the IBM/PC route like Winchester did with the WSM's... It's a shame too, that 7mm SAUM is a great case.

They clearly didn't learn their lesson from the 280 Remington (aka 7mm Express) </div></div>

Big Green hasn't done the 260 many favors either with their poor brass, factory ammo selection and marketing the round often as a youth and women's carbine hunting round.

I remember when 260 was first introduced and one of the big gun magazine writers waxed poetic on the long range possibilities of a 308 sending long 6.5 bullets down range. Shortly therafter Big Green made a bunch of model 7's with carbine barrels in 260 and offered no factory ammo with a BC above .450.

 

[captrichardson]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

Please don't get me started on Remington!

6.8 SPC, if the small rifle and ammo makers did not pick up the ball and run with it, it would have died.

SAUM Line, per above they really screwed that one up and killed it off!

.260, every day another rife has to built by a Gunsmith because you can't buy a decent .260 Remington Rifle off the shelf!

Look at the R-25, .243 and .308 are both Winchester Loads, the only Remington Load is the 7mm-08. DPMS already had a .300 SAUM and Rem .260 rifle on the shelf, but Reminton did not pickup and offer either one!

Sorry, but IMHO Remington has no freaking clue what they are doing, if it does not involve selling "Hunt'n Rifles" to the masses.

Can we start a "We Hate Remington Club"!

Sorry for the rant,
M Richardson

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

Bob,

Do you have any thoughts on the 284 win? There is an article on 6mmbr.com that has a short action 284 that is hitting 2900 with 160 nosler accubonds and RL17. Apparently, the load is seriously compressed at that point, but the RL17 could be interesting in a 7-08 or the like. 2900 with a 7mm 160 or 162 amax is smoking. JBM gives me 7.7 mils elevation and 1.8 mils windage at 1000 for 162s at 2900. That is for 75 degrees. 85 degrees takes another 1/10th mil off the elevation.

However, there are some claims of 3000 fps with RL17 and the 139 scenars. That then gives the 6.5 the edge by 3/10ths of a mil but it loses the windage by 1/10th of a mil. Tough choice. I am not sure how the primer pockets are holding up or what type of pressure signs are visible at 2900 for the 7 or 3000 for the 6.5.

So Bob, any thoughts on RL17 in the 7?

Josh

 

[bohem]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

MD- RL17 is strongly supported as the ticket for medium overbore, low capacity cases like the 260, 7-08, 7 SAUM, 280 Rem, etc.

It is too fast for something like the 6.5-284 but it's well suited to the straight 284, especially with long barrels. The numbers you're seeing on 6mmBR.com are with 28-30" barrels. Not exactly the common "tactical" rifle on here. I won't get into my thoughts on short vs. long barrels, so let's just leave this to being about what you can expect for various barrel lengths.

The 7 SAUM with RL-22 and a long barrel is awesome! My biggest complaint about the one I just sold was the 22" factory barrel. It took some judicious loading to get the speeds I needed to match the Z600 reticle in my Zeiss because the barrel was short. It made a nice handy rifle for a tree stand or pack, it was not conducive to getting realistic velocities for a 7mm short mag case design. It would have been a much more balanced rifle with a 7-08 barrel on it.

 

[BlackSixWSM]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

Hello, im new to the site but long time observer, I shoot 3 gun and F/TR open class, The only 2 Huge downfalls i find with the 7 is Until the last couple years there was complete lack of bullet selection,
I have 3 FTR rifles that I use depending on range 7-08(out to 600)which was formaly a 7BR... 6mm WSM (soft load out to 1k) and a 7 WSM, with both 7's i think i've tried every bullet on the market and iam well convinced the 180 Berger's are king.
Issue number 2 i find is feeding issues, not only in operation itself but also trying to find Mags/followers that will run smooth are near impossible to find for the bigger cases ,especially in any WSM or Rsaum case, I have countless smithy hours into my DPMS LR-300(converted to 300WSM) and 6.5 Creedmore, still to no luck, Both stovepipe constantly, But on the other Hand, if you are Looking to build a single shot that will go downtown i would put a 7WSM against anything out to 1500, It is an absolutly GREAT precision round, hope i could help

 

[bohem]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

You have a 6mm WSM? Talk about smokin barrels, do you have an estimate on the # rounds you'll be getting from it? What kind of velocities are you getting from the thing with what bullet? Just info in general, that thing sounds wicked!

A picture of the loaded round would be cool too...

 

[BobinNC]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackSixWSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello, im new to the site but long time observer, I shoot 3 gun and F/TR open class, The only 2 Huge downfalls i find with the 7 is Until the last couple years there was complete lack of bullet selection,
I have 3 FTR rifles that I use depending on range 7-08(out to 600)which was formaly a 7BR... 6mm WSM (soft load out to 1k) and a 7 WSM, with both 7's i think i've tried every bullet on the market and iam well convinced the 180 Berger's are king.
Issue number 2 i find is feeding issues, not only in operation itself but also trying to find Mags/followers that will run smooth are near impossible to find for the bigger cases ,especially in any WSM or Rsaum case, I have countless smithy hours into my DPMS LR-300(converted to 300WSM) and 6.5 Creedmore, still to no luck, Both stovepipe constantly, But on the other Hand, if you are Looking to build a single shot that will go downtown i would put a 7WSM against anything out to 1500, It is an absolutly GREAT precision round, hope i could help
</div></div>

Black6WSM,

Tell us some more about your use of a 7mm-08, and 180 Gr Bergers (VLD or LRBT). Barrel length, load data, COAL, et al.

Or if your not using 180 gr's in a 7mm-08 what are you using out to 600 yds?

Thanks,

Bob

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

Bohem,

Thanks for the info. I knew RL17 was supposed to be the holy grail for speed in those rounds. However, I have not seen a whole lot of information on it. Seems to me that people are still using H4350 and 4831SC for a lot of their needs. I have always shot a straight 308 and that is why I ask. I have a ton of 175s, so I won't be doing the RL17 and 208s any time soon. I was heavily leaning towards a 260 for the rebarrel, but the 7-08 is looking more and more attractive. Especially with the availability of WW brass.

Josh

 

[BlackSixWSM]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

My 7-08 is use a pain in the ass method that works great, an Old timer reloloader gave me the idea and it seems to work very decent with a 2.8COAL, 35g of H1000 and 180VLD's, ive been forced to switch to 168SMK's though which i think im going to stick with, Since Berger was bought out im having a hard time finding the 180's so I save them for my WSM,
The Gun is a trued Chester 70, with a 1:10 30" Krieger. the 7-08 kinda strikes me in a weird way, it seems like no matter what loads i try with the heavier bullets it shoots damn close to the same, if your really interested i can go through my log and get you some hard data on different loads, i have a wealth of Chrony info for that lil 7...it was my first BR gun


As for the 6WSM, i havent thrown it through a chrony yet but I dont think i would recommend it,LOL That gun was the brainchild of a group of gun guys, a free gunsmith, to much whiskey and a large tax return, The case is wayyyy over pressure, unreloadable, it stretches necks terribly, is the loudest lil shit i have ever heard and has a rediculously hard and stout recoil, This winter its more than likely gonna be rebarreled to a .338WSM, I cant believe they havent made one yet. in the last year or so has really got the gears in my head turning,

 

[BobinNC]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

BlacksixWSM,

Yes, I would be very much interested in your 7mm-08 load data, utilizing bullets of 162 grains of heavier.

Besides the usual suspects (Midway, Sinclair, Bruno's et al), I've found these two vendors that seem to have the 7mm Bergers I need, well most of the time, anyway.

Gun Stop

Outdoor Outfitters

Thank you for your time and trouble,

Bob

 

[JL]

Re: 6.5's over the 7 mm's ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, before we just announce the 6.5mm the winner by default let's examine some numbers, for both a .260 Remington and the way "too small" 7mm-08 Remington.

The following are all @ 1Kyds, Windage @ 10 MPH, and illustrated are velocities that can be obtained in a 260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 7mm-08, with barrel lengths from 22" to 26".

First: Berger 6.5mm Short 140 gr BT @ 2850 FPS
1000 Drop Mils -8.1 MOA -27.9 Windage Mils 1.9 MOA 6.6

Next Hornady 7mm 162 Grain A-MAX @ 2700 FPS
1000 Drop Mils -8.8 MOA -30.4 Windage Mils 1.9 MOA 6.6

Next Berger 7mm 168 gr VLD @ 2675 FPS
1000 Drop Mils -8.9 MOA -30.6 Windage Mils 1.9 MOA 6.4

Finally Berger 7mm 180 Gr Short BT @ 2575 FPS
1000 Drop Mils -9.8 MOA -33.6 Windage Mils 2.0 MOA 6.9
</div></div>

Dont know anything about other calibers You mentioned, but in sniper comp month ago a good friend´s 6.5x47 Lapua comp load was 140gr VLD @ 2 920fps. He did some testing just before comp -he was able to get 3020fps, but it started to be tad too hot. Rifle 26" RPA Rangemaster. So, Id say +2900 is not a problem at all with 47 Lapua.

According to JBM (Litz) Berger 140gr short BT: At sealevel, summer temps 2920ft/10 MPH would make -7.8mil/26.7MOA drop and windage 2mils/6.8MOA @ 1000yds.