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6.8 or 300 blackout

#151
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

The barrels can handle the pressure in both cartridges - I am not saying it is a safety issue. In order to compare one cartridge to another - it is basic controlling of variables as per the scientific method to limit both to their normal pressure - which in this case, happens to be 55,000 psi for both of them.

Why can't I list the 175?
 
#153
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The 155s are 1990 fps from a 16 inch barrel:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/177928/...-tail-box-of-20

Calculating that now, I get 796 ft-lbs at 300 yards. I was claiming 734, but I am going to change that to 796. Thank you for catching my error.

</div></div>

Nice numbers to quote. I never got that testing the .300 and I found it damn hard to get that with the full length .223 case in .30 cal or .284 (7mm TCU) So, if you go with what they say, that's the energy you supposedly get, 759 ft lbs. I call that wishfull thinking but your right there, not really lying. I was more in the realm of 1650-1700 which gives you a 300 yd. energy of about 550 ft. lbs.
 
#154
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The 155s are 1990 fps from a 16 inch barrel:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/177928/...-tail-box-of-20

Calculating that now, I get 796 ft-lbs at 300 yards. I was claiming 734, but I am going to change that to 796. Thank you for catching my error.

</div></div>

Nice numbers to quote. I never got that testing the .300 and I found it damn hard to get that with the full length .223 case in .30 cal or .284 (7mm TCU) So, if you go with what they say, that's the energy you supposedly get, 759 ft lbs. I call that wishfull thinking but your right there, not really lying. I was more in the realm of 1650-1700 which gives you a 300 yd. energy of about 550 ft. lbs. </div></div> Hell, I bet next he is going to claim his beloved blackout is more powerful than the Mk211
wink.gif
. In all seriousness RSilvers, I think people would accept the 300 more around here if you didnt try to exaggerate it's ability and push it as the number one, all around go to round for everything(on every single forum the word Blackout even pops up on).
 
#155
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice numbers to quote. I never got that testing the .300 and I found it damn hard to get that with the full length .223 case in .30 cal or .284 (7mm TCU) So, if you go with what they say, that's the energy you supposedly get, 759 ft lbs. I call that wishfull thinking but your right there, not really lying. I was more in the realm of 1650-1700 which gives you a 300 yd. energy of about 550 ft. lbs. </div></div>

I have never seen a 300 BLK load which claimed numbers higher than what is typical, but you made me want to go and double check. Remington loaded some 155 grain ammunition for the military and it was 1940 fps in a 16 inch barrel. Remington may be more conservative than PNW Arms.

If we go with the 1940 fps, then it is 748 ftlbs at 300.
 
#156
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDStroup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In all seriousness RSilvers, I think people would accept the 300 more around here if you didnt try to exaggerate it's ability and push it as the number one, all around go to round for everything(on every single forum the word Blackout even pops up on). </div></div>

The numbers are the numbers and here they are. As you see, 6.8 has options which have more energy at 300 yards. For some people, that is worth it. For others, they want a bump in energy over 5.56mm, like 30 cal, and don't want to spend 40% more for practice ammunition and be required to buy special bolts and magazines (6.8 30 round magazines are $41).

6.8 Hornady 120 SST - 932
6.8 Hornady 110 V-MAX - 885
300 BLK 175 3-gun - 856
300 BLK PNW Arm 155 - 796
6.8 SSA 110 Pro-Hunter - 756
300 BLK 155 Remington - 748
5.56mm 16" Mk262 - 714
300 BLK Remington 125 - 690
6.8 85 TSX SSA +P - 685
5.56mm M4 14.5" with Mk262 - 684
300 BLK 115 UMC - 628
300 BLK Barnes 110 - 615
5.56mm M855 - 613
 
#157
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

I think going either or is a mistake. Both have great uses witch overlap but main uses are slightly different.

The 6.8 is the best killing machine in an AR15 platform I have found.

The 300 is about as good as you can get for a super quiet, easy to convert killing machine

Both great designs
 
#158
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDStroup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In all seriousness RSilvers, I think people would accept the 300 more around here if you didnt try to exaggerate it's ability and push it as the number one, all around go to round for everything(on every single forum the word Blackout even pops up on). </div></div>

The numbers are the numbers and here they are. As you see, 6.8 has options which have more energy at 300 yards. For some people, that is worth it. For others, they want a bump in energy over 5.56mm, like 30 cal, and don't want to spend 40% more for practice ammunition and be required to buy special bolts and magazines (6.8 30 round magazines are $41).

6.8 Hornady 120 SST - 932
6.8 Hornady 110 V-MAX - 885
300 BLK 175 3-gun - 856
300 BLK PNW Arm 155 - 796
6.8 SSA 110 Pro-Hunter - 756
300 BLK 155 Remington - 748
5.56mm 16" Mk262 - 714
300 BLK Remington 125 - 690
6.8 85 TSX SSA +P - 685
5.56mm M4 14.5" with Mk262 - 684
300 BLK 115 UMC - 628
300 BLK Barnes 110 - 615
5.56mm M855 - 613
</div></div> Why do you keep saying you need the $40 plus PRI 6.8 magzines to shoot 6.8spc. They are not the only 6.8 ar15 magazine out on the market you know. The C-product magazines are only around $15 and you can losd it to the same C.O.A.L . Also what distances are these energy levels recorded at because they are pretty low for energy levels at the muzzle.( Forgot these numbers are for the 300 yard mark, my bad)
 
#160
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDStroup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDStroup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In all seriousness RSilvers, I think people would accept the 300 more around here if you didnt try to exaggerate it's ability and push it as the number one, all around go to round for everything(on every single forum the word Blackout even pops up on). </div></div>

The numbers are the numbers and here they are. As you see, 6.8 has options which have more energy at 300 yards. For some people, that is worth it. For others, they want a bump in energy over 5.56mm, like 30 cal, and don't want to spend 40% more for practice ammunition and be required to buy special bolts and magazines (6.8 30 round magazines are $41).

6.8 Hornady 120 SST - 932
6.8 Hornady 110 V-MAX - 885
300 BLK 175 3-gun - 856
300 BLK PNW Arm 155 - 796
6.8 SSA 110 Pro-Hunter - 756
300 BLK 155 Remington - 748
5.56mm 16" Mk262 - 714
300 BLK Remington 125 - 690
6.8 85 TSX SSA +P - 685
5.56mm M4 14.5" with Mk262 - 684
300 BLK 115 UMC - 628
300 BLK Barnes 110 - 615
5.56mm M855 - 613
</div></div> Why do you keep saying you need the $40 plus PRI 6.8 magzines to shoot 6.8spc. They are not the only 6.8 ar15 magazine out on the market you know. The C-product magazines are only around $15 and you can losd it to the same C.O.A.L . Also what distances are these energy levels recorded at because they are pretty low for energy levels at the muzzle.( Forgot these numbers are for the 300 yard mark, my bad) </div></div>

Because he thinks people are stupid, and since it's the highest price mag available, in comparisons, he thinks it makes his product look better...
 
#161
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDStroup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do you keep saying you need the $40 plus PRI 6.8 magzines to shoot 6.8spc. They are not the only 6.8 ar15 magazine out on the market you know. The C-product magazines are only around $15 and you can losd it to the same C.O.A.L . Also what distances are these energy levels recorded at because they are pretty low for energy levels at the muzzle.( Forgot these numbers are for the 300 yard mark, my bad) </div></div>

Some people don't need 30 round magazines, but if you want a 30 round 6.8 magazine, it is $41. The magazines you are speaking of are smaller capacity.

The energy numbers are at 300 yards.
 
#162
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: adrenaline junkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Because he thinks people are stupid, and since it's the highest price mag available, in comparisons, he thinks it makes his product look better... </div></div>

The $41 price I provided is for the lowest price 30 round magazine one can buy for 6.8.
 
#163
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDStroup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do you keep saying you need the $40 plus PRI 6.8 magzines to shoot 6.8spc. They are not the only 6.8 ar15 magazine out on the market you know. The C-product magazines are only around $15 and you can losd it to the same C.O.A.L . Also what distances are these energy levels recorded at because they are pretty low for energy levels at the muzzle.( Forgot these numbers are for the 300 yard mark, my bad) </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Some people don't need 30 round magazines, but if you want a 30 round 6.8 magazine, it is $41. The magazines you are speaking of are smaller.</span>

The energy numbers are at 300 yards.</div></div>

They are the same size as a 30 rd. mag. But, with the larger cartridges only hold 26 rounds. And they are $15 not $41 to get a C-products. Are we <span style="font-style: italic">NOT LYING</span> again?
 
#164
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDStroup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do you keep saying you need the $40 plus PRI 6.8 magzines to shoot 6.8spc. They are not the only 6.8 ar15 magazine out on the market you know. The C-product magazines are only around $15 and you can losd it to the same C.O.A.L . Also what distances are these energy levels recorded at because they are pretty low for energy levels at the muzzle.( Forgot these numbers are for the 300 yard mark, my bad) </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Some people don't need 30 round magazines, but if you want a 30 round 6.8 magazine, it is $41. The magazines you are speaking of are smaller.</span>

The energy numbers are at 300 yards.</div></div>

They are the same size as a 30 rd. mag. But, with the larger cartridges only hold 26 rounds. And they are $15 not $41 to get a C-products. Are we <span style="font-style: italic">NOT LYING</span> again? </div></div>

smaller "capacity"... he omitted a word, as it was implied...

is twisting words, or lack of, to make your case... intentionally ignoring context... not dishonest?
 
#165
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

Force_Multiplier

In my opinion, yes. He's been asked to straighten out his talk numerous times, and clarify things. Each discussion descends into a bunch more 'half truths', twisting words, taking out of context, etc.

As I have asked before of him, he needs to state clearly in no uncertain language, what the round will do and to compare his choice of improvements to relative improvements in the other cartridges. Instead we get comparisons to outdated versions of other choices.

Bottom line is we ask him to pinpoint what is/is not and all we get is more dance. I couldn't trust a fellow soldier that will never clarify... Why would I trust him with this attitude.
 
#166
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are the same size as a 30 rd. mag. But, with the larger cartridges only hold 26 rounds. And they are $15 not $41 to get a C-products. Are we <span style="font-style: italic">NOT LYING</span> again? </div></div>

Not lying. Show me a new, not used, 30 round 6.8 magazine for less than $40.
 
#167
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is twisting words, or lack of, to make your case... intentionally ignoring context... not dishonest? </div></div>

30 round magazines are important to me and I don't feel that it is twisting words to be speaking of 30 round magazines rather than lower-capacity ones.

If you want to make the case that one can buy 5, 10, or 25 round magazines in the C-Products brand for a lower price, then you can make that case without saying I am dishonest for not making that case for you.
 
#168
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my opinion, yes. He's been asked to straighten out his talk numerous times, and clarify things. Each discussion descends into a bunch more 'half truths', twisting words, taking out of context, etc.</div></div>

You think it is unclear to say that there are no 6.8 30 round magazines for under $40? That seems clear to me. I think everyone understands that I said 30 rounds and not a lower capacity.
 
#171
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

well SW,

I'll admit, I'm a 300blk fanboy (by fanboy, I mean it's the only AR chambering I've owned since I left the Army and no longer wanted an AR to mimic my issue M4)...

556, I just don't like much
6.5G...6.8, I have the same issues w/ that silvers mentions, mags and bolt... and price
300 Whisper, was expensive too
9mm, doesn't thrill me
7.62x39, would be cool, but it has the same issues as 6.5/6.8, except price, but add in feeding issues

so 300blk pops up,

it's a rip off of the 300 whisper, that's the biggest issue I have w/ it, silvers/AAC act like they came up w/ something new, it was a wildcat before the whisper, then whisper, then the 300blk... now bill wilson has a longer variation too... they're all just tweaking shit a tiny amount and slapping a new name on it...

BUT, it gives me a .30 that I can shoot in an AR, AAC/Rem gives me the best option as far as support, .30 has the best bullet selection.

I can easily load (or buy ammo loaded) from 110gr-220gr... it functions (being relatively new to the mainstream, some builders have issues, but well built guns w/ good ammo run)

and the support for it is still growing

would I like to see more 300blk specific bullets, yeah, but .30 gives me a better selection than any other caliber now anyway

would I like to see a piston system that works well both suppressed and unsuppressed, yeah

I've shot it suppressed to 400yds (16" bbl w/ subs) and held around MOA

I can load it super sonic and get enough power to knock down medium game sized targets

all out of a SBR, that is VERY comfortable to shoot and cheap as hell to load for, w/ factory ammo that is pretty inexpensive...

and all it is to convert the average AR is a bbl swap (which sell for as low as $200ish)

I get what silvers says about 300yds too, and if all you guys think soldiers and Marines are routinely hitting targets w/ a 556 beyond 300, get real... 9 out of 10 (probably that qualified expert, much less barely qualified) can't hit a 300yd target in the field... do I think it replaces the M4, as a primary infantry weapon, nope... but in a whole lot of roles, it's a better choice... but then brings in logistics... which I see as only a small issue on our modern battlefields

I see an SBR in 300blk as what they were looking for in WWII w/ the M1 Carbine and Thompson SMG... it was developed to be issued to troops who were in a support role, they needed more than a pistol, but a full sized rifle was too much... a 9-10" 300blk fits that VERY well, and just like the M1 Carbine, Thompson, and the greasegun, it'd find specialized roles too, generally suppressed... but it's main military role, IMHO, would to issue to troops who either don't use a rifle as their primary weapon, or are in the rear w/ the gear... Germans did it w/ SMGs, so did the Russians

Tankers (and damn near any other vehicle crew)
Mortarmen
Artillerymen
supply
military police
cooks
most officers
some NCOs
medics
helo crews
mechanics

so forth and so on...


people in general, and especially long range shooters... tend to be trapped in their own little box... the 300blk is an outside that box weapon
 
#172
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it's a rip off of the 300 whisper, that's the biggest issue I have w/ it, silvers/AAC act like they came up w/ something new</div></div>

I have presented 300 BLK many times to auditoriums filled with people and always gave SSK the proper credit, as I have in magazine articles and in the PowerPoints I have created. See page 5:

http://www.300aacblackout.com/resources/300-BLK.pdf

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it was a wildcat before the whisper, then whisper, then the 300blk.</div></div>

Exactly - it was 300-221 before SSK, then SSK made it work subsonic in an AR15, then AAC/Remington went back to the original Remington 221 Fireball drawings, used those Remington dimensions, and then picked the final throat diameter, chamber neck diameter, headspace datum, and corner radii - and also came out with a subsonic/supersonic ammunition that both worked with the same gas port and in normal magazines with full capacity.
 
#173
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Exactly, Mk 262, 318 and 855A1 have all been used since the 55gr was but the 300 doesn't look as good when you compare it to those. </div></div>

Well, it looks like this - ft-lbs at 300 yards:

300 BLK 16" 175 3-gun - 856 ft-lbs.
300 BLK 16" PNW Arm 155 - 796 ft-lbs.
5.56mm M4 14.5" with Mk262 - 684 ft-lbs.
</div></div>
Now why didn't you use a 16" 5.56 barrel?
People aren't as stupid as you think they are Robert, they can see right through your used car marketing tactics.
 
#174
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I get what silvers says about 300yds too, and if all you guys think soldiers and Marines are routinely hitting targets w/ a 556 beyond 300, get real... 9 out of 10 (probably that qualified expert, much less barely qualified) can't hit a 300yd target in the field...</div></div>

Apparently you are not familiar with the Marine Corps rifle qualification requirements.
 
#175
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it's a rip off of the 300 whisper, that's the biggest issue I have w/ it, silvers/AAC act like they came up w/ something new</div></div>

I have presented 300 BLK many times to auditoriums filled with people and always gave SSK the proper credit, as I have in magazine articles and in the PowerPoints I have created. See page 5:

http://www.300aacblackout.com/resources/300-BLK.pdf

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it was a wildcat before the whisper, then whisper, then the 300blk.</div></div>

Exactly - it was 300-221 before SSK, then SSK made it work subsonic in an AR15, then AAC/Remington went back to the original Remington 221 Fireball drawings, used those Remington dimensions, and then picked the final throat diameter, chamber neck diameter, headspace datum, and corner radii - and also came out with a subsonic/supersonic ammunition that both worked with the same gas port and in normal magazines with full capacity.

</div></div>

Robert,

stop, I'm on your side here

I've talked to you enough to have noticed that people don't always get you thought process, and you don't always get their's...

I'm trying to bridge the gap here between you and some people who might not really understand the need for a relatively short range, efficient SBR...

 
#176
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it's a rip off of the 300 whisper, that's the biggest issue I have w/ it, silvers/AAC act like they came up w/ something new</div></div>

I have presented 300 BLK many times to auditoriums filled with people and always gave SSK the proper credit, as I have in magazine articles and in the PowerPoints I have created. See page 5:

http://www.300aacblackout.com/resources/300-BLK.pdf

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it was a wildcat before the whisper, then whisper, then the 300blk.</div></div>

Exactly - it was 300-221 before SSK, then SSK made it work subsonic in an AR15, then AAC/Remington went back to the original Remington 221 Fireball drawings, used those Remington dimensions, and then picked the final throat diameter, chamber neck diameter, headspace datum, and corner radii - and also came out with a subsonic/supersonic ammunition that both worked with the same gas port and in normal magazines with full capacity.

</div></div>
So you just happened to pick the same headspace datum as the Whisper?
 
#177
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now why didn't you use a 16" 5.56 barrel?
People aren't as stupid as you think they are Robert, they can see right through your used car marketing tactics. </div></div>

All M4s are 14.5 inches. I only had M4 data at first, but when someone asked, I researched it and then also listed 16 inch barrel Mk262 data.
 
#178
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So you just happened to pick the same headspace datum as the Whisper? </div></div>

Actually 300 Whisper(R) used Remington's 221 Fireball headspace parameters exactly.

We changed the datum point for 300 AAC Blackout so that the measurement point would not occur on a radius. It is not the same datum location as 300 Whisper.
 
#179
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

Force_Multiplier,

No one is saying the .300 BLk isn't an effective short range weapon. But, it will not hold Point Blank Zero out to 300 yds. It takes a pretty big adjustment to get it there and especially beyond.

I also understand that not everyone can hit @ 300 and beyond. But you at least have to be at the correct elevation to give suppressive fire. Otherwise it's ineffective. That's why you have M4's that can dial up to 600m. It isn't always practiced in the field as time isn't an expedient you have to work with.

In my opinion, what it does best, and I do mean it, is shoot heavy bullets subsonic. That gives a lot of energy for a super quiet round. I realize not as many people here get to shoot suppressed weapons as wish they could. It's not just the cool factor, it's the total unknown it's coming at you. The guy who gets it first never knew it was coming and the ones following never even know something is up, until eventually surprise is lost. In the respect of an assault/raid on a compound or near ambush it gives the attacker a huge edge. That also gives a real use for it in CQB. Anytime a weapon can be used in two roles it becomes more valuable than the sum of each use.

No one, is not crediting rsilvers with that. What we have issue with, are the huge numbers and making it sound like it will hang with the 5.56, 6.8 or 6.5G when it comes to overall usefulness. Beyond a very limited range the weapon pretty much falls short of any needs required. rsilvers making it sound as though those needs are met, or don't need to be met is what's pissing people off here.

I've loaded for the round in a T/C and a couple batches for a friend in an AR (not suppressed) We loaded 110's, 125's 150's 175's, 180's and 240's. None gave as good of velocity we see advertised except the sub-sonics. I did run a ladder to see where max was for the 240's. All were effective short range. None were point blank past 220. They just dropped off too fast. With the right scope and the dope one could shoot longer ranges with one. Although, no where near 800 yds. Thus the previous joke about where to hang the mortar sight on your firearm to get it out there.

But, to counter the CQB issue, all the above in short barreled rifles do just as well. If I'm going to carry a second gun it will be a pistol to augment my long range rifle. Not a long range rifle to augment my short range rifle.
 
#180
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No one is saying the .300 BLk isn't an effective short range weapon. But, it will not hold Point Blank Zero out to 300 yds.</div></div>

Neither will 6.8. Here are some examples (+- 2.5 inches):

6.8, Hornady, 110 V-MAX - 244 yards.
6.8, SSA, 110 Pro Hunter - 237 yards.
6.8, SSA, 120 SST - 239 yards.
300 BLK, 110 grain black tip, loaded by Barnes, is 220 yards.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No one, is not crediting rsilvers with that. What we have issue with, are the huge numbers and making it sound like it will hang with the 5.56, 6.8 or 6.5G when it comes to overall usefulness. </div></div>

Which number did I get incorrect? The fact is, the numbers are big - and that hard for you to believe - but that is all the more reason 300 BLK is impressive - because it really gets those numbers (better than Mk 262, for example, for energy at distance).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Beyond a very limited range the weapon pretty much falls short of any needs required. rsilvers making it sound as though those needs are met, or don't need to be met is what's pissing people off here. </div></div>

The max point blank range of 6.8 is only about 22 yards more.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've loaded for the round in a T/C and a couple batches for a friend in an AR (not suppressed) We loaded 110's, 125's 150's 175's, 180's and 240's. None gave as good of velocity we see advertised except the sub-sonics.</div></div>

Then you are the only one who cannot get the same or better velocity than the Remington factory ammunition.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thus the previous joke about where to hang the mortar sight on your firearm to get it out there.</div></div>

The max point blank range is only about 20 yards less than 6.8, so your jokes are misleading.
 
#181
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

ok, we get it sand... the 300blk does NOTHING for YOU...

and the number MAY be off a little (few people, myself included match published numbers, on any round, we either don't see them, or we fly right past them)...

here's what I know... the 300blk does everything I need a SBR/Carbine to do... and it does it well, and comfortably (low recoil, blast, noise, and cost)...

and I know that EVERYONE I've ever let shoot one, loved it (mostly inexperienced shooters that are scared of an AR, or "hunters" that are used to a 300WM), they all shot it well, they were comfortable w/ it...

I know a mil based reticle lets me hold out to 400 (PST 1-4)

and I know MOST soldiers, sailors, Marines, and airmen are a LOT like those shooters, so I THINK those people would benefit from a 10" 300blk, instead os having a M4 or M16a2, that they can't shoot past 200M anyway, and a M9, that they can't hit a 25m target with...

I also KNOW that the average 03 series Marine, 11B soldier, etc... doesn't need the damn thing...

and I know that if I, me personally, am putting FMJ downrange (issue ammo), I'd rather have a .308 than a .224, .264, .277... because all these energy #s are really cool... until you start looking at how much a given bullet gives up into a target...

that's part of where people get too wrapped around the axle, they worry too much about the theoretical, does it work?...yep. is it easy to live with?... yep.

now notice, I'm talking almost exclusively super sonic, I sure like shooting subs, but the most useful rounds are supers

 
#183
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

Barrel length 16"
(far longer than the 10" that silvers endorses)
Data compiled from Barnes website on their HIGHLY SPECIALIZED black tip bullet and JBM ballistics

MV 2400 fps (yeah, right)
BC of black tip bullet: .289
100 yard zero
Drop at 300 yards: 23 inches
Ft lbs of energy at 300: 626

SSA 115gr OTM tactical load:
BC of bullet: .317
100 yard zero
Drop at 300: 18.6 inches
Ft lbs of energy at 300: 830
More then 200 ft lbs more energy with almost 5" less drop

SSA 110gr Accubond:
BC: .370
100 yard zero
Drop at 300: 16.7 (wow, even flatter)
ft lbs of energy at 300: 929 plus change
Oh yeah, Max PBR 310 yards, significantly farther than the .300 blk load. Imagine that, doesn't go subsonic till about the 850 yard mark (much like the 168 grain MK from a .308)

Makes you wonder why he doesn't wish to compare the tactical loads with readily available components, oh yeah, it just makes his cartridge look anemic.
 
#184
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I've loaded for the round in a T/C and a couple batches for a friend in an AR (not suppressed) We loaded 110's, 125's 150's 175's, 180's and 240's. None gave as good of velocity we see advertised except the sub-sonics. </div></div>

Snapped this right after I skipped a round off the top of my chrono a few months back. I was running 147gr M80 pulls out of my CMMG barreled 16" 300 Blackout at the time, chrono was at 15' from the muzzle. This load is with 16.5gr of H110, in converted PMC brass, with CCI 450 primers. I can push them to nearly 2,000fps before I start to see pressure signs, but they are more accurate at this speed. 150gr Nosler BT's with the same powder charge run 11fps faster on average, 155gr AMAx's are about 6fps slower.

These aren't out of the ordinary velocities either, they're quite typical.

warningshot.jpg
 
#185
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barrel length 16"
(far longer than the 10" that silvers endorses)
Data compiled from Barnes website on their HIGHLY SPECIALIZED black tip bullet and JBM ballistics

MV 2400 fps (yeah, right) </div></div>

Why do you expose yourself by saying things that are demonstrably false?

300 BLK 110 grain is 2400 fps from a 16 inch barrel all day long. It has been pressure tested in SAAMI barrels many times.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/300-AAC-Blackout-110gr-TAC-TX.pdf
 
#186
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

You're such a dumb ass.

1. I USED their data. (which, coincidentally is info for the HANDLOADER, not commercial ammo). I used the data from that very file.

2. They achieved that velocity, as YOU pointed out, in a TEST barrel. Which have been PROVEN to result higher velocities.

SSA tests their loads through RIFLES.

Again, when presented with facts, you attempt to cloud things.

You will not consistently get 2400 FPS out of a semi-auto, 16" barrel.

Since you claim what I said is demonstrably false (even though I used those exact figures provided by Barnes).
Please DEMONSTRATE to me, in front of witnesses, with a production rifle and regular production ammunition, consistent 2400 fps from a 16" gas operated barrel WITHOUT a suppressor.
 
#187
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SSA 110gr Accubond:
BC: .370
100 yard zero
Drop at 300: 16.7 (wow, even flatter)
ft lbs of energy at 300: 929 plus change
Oh yeah, Max PBR 310 yards, significantly farther than the .300 blk load. Imagine that, doesn't go subsonic till about the 850 yard mark (much like the 168 grain MK from a .308)</div></div>

The .370 BC is doubtful in a 16 inch barrel 6.8. It is most likely a BC put out by Nosler from testing with a 26" barrel 270.

300 BLK BCs are not BS - they are tested with 300 BLK in 16 inch barrels (not 300 WM in 26 inch barrels).

Max point blank range for the SSA load (assuming the 0.370 BC is correct, which is doubtful) is 237 yards (+- 2.5"), <span style="font-weight: bold">NOT 310 yards</span>. The only way you can get a 310 yard max PBR is by changing it to +- 5" - which is fine if you want to do that, but just note that all of the 300 BLK max PBRs I was posting were the more strict +- 2.5"

Yes, that 6.8 load goes subsonic at around 825 yards (again assuming the BC of 0.370 is correct) - and 300 BLK is more like 625 yards. So 6.8 is a longer range round than 300 BLK, but 6.5 is longer range than 6.8 so why not use 6.5 if that is your goal?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Makes you wonder why he doesn't wish to compare the tactical loads with readily available components, oh yeah, it just makes his cartridge look anemic.</div></div>

I already said why - because I am not willing to load 300 BLK to above 55,000 psi and seat the bullets out to longer than max OAL just to create cartridges that can be compared to 6.8 loads which use those hand loader tricks. It makes more sense to compare cartridges loaded to normal pressure.

For the record - a 100 yard zero is not optimal for 300 BLK or 6.8 - 200 yards is much better. SSA even uses a 200 yard zero for their data. This does not mean you literally need to sight in at 200 yards - you can just sight in at 100 and be +3 high.
 
#188
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're such a dumb ass.

1. I USED their data. (which, coincidentally is info for the HANDLOADER, not commercial ammo). I used the data from that very file. </div></div>

I know you used the Barnes data - but you also said "Yeah right," so you were implying that one cannot reach 2400 fps at 55,000 psi when it is easy to do so.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2. They achieved that velocity, as YOU pointed out, in a TEST barrel. Which have been PROVEN to result higher velocities.</div></div>

This may be difficult to follow (I am not being sarcastic), but yes - a test barrel will often give higher velocities and higher pressure than a typical production barrel. But the pressure/velocity are aligned. So sure - if you take that same load that gets 2400 fps and 55,000 psi in a pressure test barrel and stick it in a commercial rifle, it may be 2350 fps and 52,000 psi. But you can always bump the powder up a hair and be back to 2400 fps and 55,000 psi. If you don't understand that, I can try to explain it another way.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SSA tests their loads through RIFLES.</div></div>

There is no way to get good pressure data from a rifle - which is why companies with more resources don't do it that way.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You will not consistently get 2400 FPS out of a semi-auto, 16" barrel.</div></div>

You will be able to if the ammunition is loaded to 55,000 psi. If the velocity is less, then the pressure is less (assuming you are using H110 powder).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since you claim what I said is demonstrably false (even though I used those exact figures provided by Barnes).
Please DEMONSTRATE to me, in front of witnesses, with a production rifle and regular production ammunition, consistent 2400 fps from a 16" gas operated barrel WITHOUT a suppressor.
</div></div>

It is no problem to get 2400 fps from a 16 inch rifle at 55,000 psi, and of course you would get more if you used the 6.8 tricks of loading long or to 58,000 psi.
 
#189
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

Once again, you obfuscate.

SSA publishes REAL WORLD VELOCITIES out of a rifle barrel, unlike the data you spew. No one said anything about pressure.

Now you are suggesting that the velocities for the blk CAN"T be reached with commercial ammo, that you MUST bump up the powder charge to reach the pressure in a gas gun. Imagine that.

Put up, or shut up.

I want to see you achieve these velocities with off the shelf, commercial ammo fired from a commercially produced AR15, 16" barrel with a standard operational gas port.
 
#190
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once again, you obfuscate.

SSA publishes REAL WORLD VELOCITIES out of a rifle barrel, unlike the data you spew. No one said anything about pressure. </div></div>

It is not a question of real world vs non-real-world. It is not good to use regular rifles because there is no effort made to controlling the chambers/bores to minimum dimensions.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now you are suggesting that the velocities for the blk CAN"T be reached with commercial ammo, that you MUST bump up the powder charge to reach the pressure in a gas gun. Imagine that.</div></div>

What I am saying is that a 110 grain bullet is easily loadable to 2400 fps at 55,000 psi. If it is making less velocity, then it is also at less pressure.

300 BLK ammunition from Barnes and Remington meets or beats its claimed velocity in actual rifles.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Put up, or shut up.

I want to see you achieve these velocities with off the shelf, commercial ammo fired from a commercially produced AR15, 16" barrel with a standard operational gas port.
</div></div>

You are just digging a deeper hole. 300 BLK velocities are not exaggerated.

Remington 125 grain Match is listed by Remington as 2215 fps. Steve Johnson, a former Hornady employee, achieved 2209 at 10 feet and 2235 fps at 10 feet in another session.

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/shades-of-gray-page-2/

Remington 125 AccuTip is marketed as 2215 fps also. Steve got 2311 fps at 10 feet.

Rifle Shooter magazine got:

http://rifleshooter.com/2012/09/300-aac-blackout-review/

Remington 125 grain OTM: heavy buffer 2208 fps, SD 6, regular buffer 2213 fps, SD 15, five shot groupings from .862&#8243;-1.469&#8243; @ 50 yards

Remington 125 grain Accutip: heavy buffer 2298 fps, SD 25, regular buffer 2308 fps, SD 19, five shot groupings from .893&#8243;-1.092&#8243; @ 50 yards

And for the black-tip hand-load data, Barnes says 2400 fps for a 16 inch barrel, and they mean it. Barnes is not going to put out data that goes over 55,000 psi.
 
#191
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once again, you obfuscate.

SSA publishes REAL WORLD VELOCITIES out of a rifle barrel, unlike the data you spew. No one said anything about pressure. </div></div>

It is not a question of real world vs non-real-world. It is not good to use regular rifles because there is no effort made to controlling the chambers/bores to minimum dimensions.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Yes, it is. Instead of living in fantasy land, I live in the real world, where real world velocities matter. </span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now you are suggesting that the velocities for the blk CAN"T be reached with commercial ammo, that you MUST bump up the powder charge to reach the pressure in a gas gun. Imagine that.</div></div>

What I am saying is that a 110 grain bullet is easily loadable to 2400 fps at 55,000 psi. If it is making less velocity, then it is also at less pressure.
<span style="color: #FF0000">
No, what you're saying is that if I go out and buy a box of commercial, barnes ammo, it won't make 2400 fps</span>
</div></div>
 
#192
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, what you're saying is that if I go out and buy a box of commercial, barnes ammo, it won't make 2400 fps</div></div>

Oh, then we agree. Barnes opted to their cartridges to 2350 fps, which is what I used for my energy and max point blank range calculations.

If you want 2400 fps, Corbon claims it:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/616758/...-free-box-of-20

But I have not tried those.
 
#193
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

Force_Multiplier

I think I was very clear on what the .300 blk WILL do and what it won't do. I never said it isn't a good idea or had nothing for me. I'm pretty sure if you go back and read my post, you will see what I feel it has going for me.

I do agree with every branch of the service though, in that there is not enough difference in power to warrant changing to the .300 blk for them.
 
#194
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barrel length 16"
(far longer than the 10" that silvers endorses)
Data compiled from Barnes website on their HIGHLY SPECIALIZED black tip bullet and JBM ballistics

MV 2400 fps (yeah, right) </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Why do you expose yourself by saying things that are demonstrably false?
</span>
300 BLK 110 grain is 2400 fps from a 16 inch barrel all day long. It has been pressure tested in SAAMI barrels many times.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/300-AAC-Blackout-110gr-TAC-TX.pdf</div></div>


Why do you? I think this is where you get called a liar. You mix and match what makes your project round look better. When someone calls you on it, you call them a liar. Meanwhile, your truthfulness is sliding back and forth behind whichever numbers serve you best, no matter the source.

I have worked with 6.8 and I can get a max point blank zero out to 300 yds. without adjusting. I was not able to do that with the .300. Unless of course you call 'dialing up' part of a point blank zero.

At this point, I'm sick of arguing with you. You don't come forward with straightforward numbers and anybody I get the chance to, I'll tell, don't buy the .300. That's the kind of 'word of mouth advertising' I'll pass along for you.

CEEYA!
 
#195
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once again, you obfuscate.

SSA publishes REAL WORLD VELOCITIES out of a rifle barrel, unlike the data you spew. No one said anything about pressure. </div></div>

It is not a question of real world vs non-real-world. It is not good to use regular rifles because there is no effort made to controlling the chambers/bores to minimum dimensions.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now you are suggesting that the velocities for the blk CAN"T be reached with commercial ammo, that you MUST bump up the powder charge to reach the pressure in a gas gun. Imagine that.</div></div>

What I am saying is that a 110 grain bullet is easily loadable to 2400 fps at 55,000 psi. If it is making less velocity, then it is also at less pressure.

300 BLK ammunition from Barnes and Remington meets or beats its claimed velocity in actual rifles.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Put up, or shut up.

I want to see you achieve these velocities with off the shelf, commercial ammo fired from a commercially produced AR15, 16" barrel with a standard operational gas port.
</div></div>

You are just digging a deeper hole. 300 BLK velocities are not exaggerated.

Remington 125 grain Match is listed by Remington as 2215 fps. Steve Johnson, a former Hornady employee, achieved 2209 at 10 feet and 2235 fps at 10 feet in another session.

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/shades-of-gray-page-2/

Remington 125 AccuTip is marketed as 2215 fps also. Steve got 2311 fps at 10 feet.

Rifle Shooter magazine got:

http://rifleshooter.com/2012/09/300-aac-blackout-review/

Remington 125 grain OTM: heavy buffer 2208 fps, SD 6, regular buffer 2213 fps, SD 15, five shot groupings from .862&#8243;-1.469&#8243; @ 50 yards

Remington 125 grain Accutip: heavy buffer 2298 fps, SD 25, regular buffer 2308 fps, SD 19, five shot groupings from .893&#8243;-1.092&#8243; @ 50 yards

And for the black-tip hand-load data, Barnes says 2400 fps for a 16 inch barrel, and they mean it. Barnes is not going to put out data that goes over 55,000 psi.
</div></div>
Everyone uses real rifles in the field, they don't lug around test barrels. They use ammo purchased online most of the time.
Real obtainable products is what should be tested and results used to figure PBR. Using a vel that was obtained in a test barrel isn't going to help John Q shooting his rifle in the field. Most of SSA's and Hornadys factory loads are 52000psi, SSA's Tac loads and Wilson Combats loads are higher than 52000 but not higher than 58000 in a 10 twist SPCII chambered barrel.
What I see is you are comparing the best 300blk bullet to bullets that aren't the best 6.8 or whatever. If you want to compare the best 110gr 300 bullet then compare it to the the 110 Nosler, that would be fair. The 110 black tip is the BEST bullet for the blk. The 110 Nosler is not the best bullet for the 6.8 for all things. For max point blank try a 105gr GS SP. For factory ammo it could be the 100 Nosler, 110 Nosler, 120 SST or 140 Berger.
All BS aside, you are trying to make the blk look like the best cartridge for everything, it's not. Every time you post stuff you open it up so guys can tell everyone else how it doesn't perform. All of these negative threads are doing more harm than good.
The Grendel guys would always compare a 123 Lapua to a 308 175gr SMK and say how the Grendel was better. Well they compared the best 6.5 bullet to an average performing 308 bullet and everyone saw right through it. Compare the best 264 123 Lapua to the .308 155 Lapua and the 308 smokes it.
It took a few years for them to stop trying to say it was better than a 308. It's a very good round for what it is but it doesn't best every cartridge out there.
 
#196
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do you? I think this is where you get called a liar. You mix and match what makes your project round look better. When someone calls you on it, you call them a liar. Meanwhile, your truthfulness is sliding back and forth behind whichever numbers serve you best, no matter the source. </div></div>

I don't follow. I don't remember calling anyone a liar.

Fact: 300 BLK will reliably push a 110 grain bullet from a 16 inch barrel at 2400 fps at 55,000 psi - in either a test barrel or an actual commercial rifle.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have worked with 6.8 and I can get a max point blank zero out to 300 yds. without adjusting. I was not able to do that with the .300. Unless of course you call 'dialing up' part of a point blank zero.</div></div>

When calculating max point blank range, you need to pick the radius. You cannot get 300 yards from 6.8 if the radius used is 2.5 inches - which is the radius I have been using in every example for 300 BLK.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At this point, I'm sick of arguing with you. You don't come forward with straightforward numbers and anybody I get the chance to, I'll tell, don't buy the .300. That's the kind of 'word of mouth advertising' I'll pass along for you.

CEEYA!</div></div>

I have posted the actual numbers. It seems like you did not know that max point blank range requires one to pick a radius, and you are using a more generous / less strict radius than I was.
 
#197
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone uses real rifles in the field, they don't lug around test barrels. They use ammo purchased online most of the time.
Real obtainable products is what should be tested and results used to figure PBR. </div></div>

Agreed - when I listed the max PBR of the 300 BLK, I used the velocity of 2350 that Barnes publishes - not the 2400 fps from a max load.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All BS aside, you are trying to make the blk look like the best cartridge for everything, it's not. </div></div>

300 BLK is not the best for everything. I have said that 6.8 has longer range than 300 BLK and even gave examples which showed that.

 
#198
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

Rsilvers, when I run the 110 tacx at 2400 through JBM I get a max PBZ of 180 not the 220 you posted. Perhaps I made a mistake, could you please post a copy of your JBM output page so I can see if we are using the same inputs?
 
#199
Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Low Sioux</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rsilvers, when I run the 110 tacx at 2400 through JBM I get a max PBZ of 180 not the 220 you posted. Perhaps I made a mistake, could you please post a copy of your JBM output page so I can see if we are using the same inputs? </div></div>

Maybe you are using the wrong 110 grain bullet data? Did you pick the "Tac-X" from their database? If so, that is the regular Tac-X. You need the black tip.

pbr.png
 
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