6mm chamberings

[MolassesTreeJ]

I made a few less than insightful comments; which seem to have been removed. My misgivings for poor composition, composure and blatant showing of ignorance.

Taking what I cared to read before said posts were removed.. A lot of comment about 6mm chambering came up. Since, I have dug around looking at various postings on 6mm cartridges. Talk to me. I am curious about a few things.

After reading up that the 6mm Dasher is still pretty top of the PRS matches, I see a few others floating around.

I was looking into the 6SLR, 6CompMatch and a few others. However - Even with a hydroforming tool, the 'fire formed' cases seem a bit tedious. Not enough to sway me away. Just an observation that less motivated/more lazy people will shy away.

A lot of people claimed 6CM(comp match) was able to promote longer barrel life when using H1000 due to the cold nature of this powder. Complaints were also handed out that H1000 is very space occupying, meaning it took long drop tubes and vibratory application to said case for proper fill. Also noticed people stated any amount of case lube would cause powder to hang up in the neck. The same complainers also mentioned that even using a more large volume of H1000 to net similar velocities as the h4835 region of burning powders would not promote barrel life due to the greater amount of sand blasting properties found in channeling more powder down bore. Those same people kept spouting 6Dasher.

I can see the argument that more powder is more erosion, regardless of temperature. Media blasting is media blasting. Longer you put a dirty part under aluminum oxide, the more clean it becomes. Factor 4,000-5,000 degrees Fahrenheit (is it more?) plus 50,000+ PSI and it probably does not take 'long' to see wear here.

This said - I noticed also the lower case fill cartridges shrimped out on actual power well before the larger brothers/sisters. Naturally. Which in sense may make more issue with 'impact' on steel at range.

If you all were going to throw large amount of money into a PRS Manners stock with their mini-chassis, ARC Nucleus action and a quality lens.. What 6mm chambering would you pick? Then, explain why. It seems 6SLR, 6CM, 6Creedmoor, 6XC all net similar velocities and barrel life. I personally have no real interest in the Creedmoor Kool-Aid however, am able to see that for some it may be the ideal place. However, that disclosed - Even with new in bag unloaded brass.. I have always ran it through a sizer first. When comparing to the 6SLR it seems almost moot.

Also - Has the less tapered body of 6Creedmoor shown issues with feeding/extraction? I am not touching the 243AI because of stigma following it on 'fickle feeding'. Little to no taper on body, steep shoulder.

I fully agree and acknowledge that the 6Dasher wins in terms of 'probable barrel life' and lowest cost for a person equipped to reload. Smaller powder charges coupled to a potential increase of barrel life can in term pay for another barrel. It also likely does not offer enough take down power for any 'extended' hunting. Beyond 300-400 yards. Granted shot placement is king. I have not actually ran any numbers on the Dasher cartridge. Though I heard most people winning with it are using 2750-2850fps and 105-108grain projectiles.

My initial thoughts were those 115DTACS around 2900fps. Some people are chasing big numbers. My thought was something relatively soft with a 26" barrel should reach those numbers. Simply due to the Litz G7 rating on the DTAC.

 

[lennyo3034]

First, let's determine the purpose of the rifle and then determine requirements based on that.

You're interested in extended range hunting as one purpose. What percentage of time will this rifle be used for hunting vs target shooting? What type of target shooting will you be doing and at what ranges?

 

[MolassesTreeJ]

It is just simply stated as this; I want meat and potatoes on the same plate.

More shooting paper and steel. Not going to openly compete in PRS. Max shot at game - 700yards. Have a shooting stand that views over 80acres. Whitetail deer. Nothing over 300lbs.

Mostly 300-800yds. Max of 1000 across the entire field.

It seems a lot of persons now feel these wildcats are 'byegones' and 'has beens' because hornady solved all problems.

Honestly a standard 243 would likely do just fine with quality brass and gentle use.

Especially with a 2.9" box mag.

 

[steve123]

You could pick any 30 + grains of powder 6mm and be successful. Get what works for you.

When at my peak my long range steel load was 115 DTACS at 3000 fps in 6x47L. Barrel life has always been an issue/1700 or so, but those ballistics don't disappoint. In this match most targets were from 500Y to 1000Y so farther out than most matches. The main thing for me which turned out to be one of the best decisions I ever made choosing this cartridge was the insane brass life! Approx 37 firings in 11 years.

IMO, for PRS the 6mm Dasher has lower recoil for positional or shooting off obstacles - self spotting, longer barrel life than most 6mm's and is more efficient, or accurate in general. One guy I know of relegates his barrels at 2100 rounds or so for practice but they still shoot well, just a flyer here and there.

The cartridge setting records in 600Y and 1000Y are a few 6mm BR AI wildcats. Easy to form because there is a slight crush fit on virgin brass and there isn't much velocity loss over 6mm Dasher. One popular load is 31.6gr H4895 over a 108 Berger out of a 28" 8 twist at 2940 fps.

Reading over at another site I found out that N160 and H100V burn cooler than H1000. My current plan is to try to work up a lighter load with them for playing but use a temp insensitive powder fast load for matches.

Also threatening doing a 25 Dasher using Norma Dasher brass for the 131 Blackjacks. Hoping for better barrel life and like the .67BC.

 

[MolassesTreeJ]

So you would slighty neck the norma 6dasher brass for that BlackJack ace 25cal?

Quick look shows norma brass 6dasher is longer oal than the original 6br to 6dasher wildcat. Norma restored the neck length??..

That actually has my attention. Especially for the relatively low cost of the 131 projectile. If you carry on with this 25dasher please post informations.

Only - I am not finding anyone currently vending 'new' norma dasher. Was this a limited run?

So, any 6mm with a minimum of 30gr charge ought do what I want?

 

[spife7980]

I’m going to wander a bit.

When I first started out I always made the purpose of the rifle for hunting and wanted it accordingly. but I found that I may shoot 1k rounds of it a year but only 20 of them were actually at animals. I now have a hunting rifle and everything else is getting target oriented. I enjoy both designations much more so because they are great at what they do rather than a compromise. That said if you’re just sitting over an 80 acre field for white tail then make it a target oriented rifle and don’t worry about the hunting aspects of it.

For that reason I went with 6xc in the latest rifle and am shooting match bullets. I’m not concerned about terminal ballistics at all. It hits steel noticeably softer than a 6.5, hits at 1k can be light, a target suspended by one central chain would be best, get some rotation in instead of ever so slight sway with my two chain for ease of self spotting but it’s still a hit which is what matters. But going 6xc was also a compromise of sorts looking back. It didn’t have the top end speed to break into the 3100s like the creed or 243 and it doesn’t have the lowest recoil like a br/dasher. It’s a bit of both worlds. Looking back I should have gone creed or 243 with a long throat. Cram h1000 in and seat the 115 dtac or 110 smk bullet out in the neck for the most capacity (which comp match would do best but I also don’t like the idea of firforming that much). I expect I would get about the same life as I’ll get now with h4350 and 105s but would net a speed increase. Of course that’s just conjecture, ideas for future tinkering. If you were going for prs competitions then I would say go for the br/dasher where they have hit indicators and people with spotting scopes to verify impacts, the lower recoil is worth it for games and shooting from weird positions.

 

[MolassesTreeJ]

I saw 'bullets.com' had the 6mm norma dasher but it is discontinued? Hmm..

I appreciate you. The hunting aspect is the compromise. Barrel life is a consideration but only marginal; have mill and lathe in the garage. With a xl650 dillon and rcbs rock chucker in spare room. So, my perspective is a bit off from others.


One other thought I had.. and this is just my 'wandering'.. being a manually opperated bolt.. would it be unwise to download a 6slr/6compmatch to similar charge weights of the 6dasher/6xc? So long as the faster powders would make case seal in chamber.. there would be no issues? In so far, I could use 'puff loads' for fun and practice. Then, really fuel the case for match day? Fire a few zeroing loads.. dial in and burn the barrel?

You guys are all being great. Thank you.

That 131gr makes me wonder.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

First of all, will you be shooting PRS? If not, ignore what people are using for PRS as it's not directly applicable to your uses. If you will be shooting PRS and want to be serious about it, build a dedicated PRS rifle. You'll find that most of the top shooters have multiple rifles and some of them even run different calibers for different matches based on the course of fire.

If you really want to take up to 300lbs game up to 700 yards away, 6mm shouldn't even be a consideration. Without getting into that whole debate, yes it can be done but it's marginal at best. 6.5mm is what you should be looking at if you want dual purpose. Lots of people do really well with 6.5's in PRS and there's plenty of people who run both 6mm and 6.5mm rifles.

Or have two barrels spun up for your action, or three, or four. It takes 10 minutes tops to swap a barrel and retorque everything. So long as you're meticulous about putting everything back together with clean surfaces and consistent torque values your POI shift on and off should be minimal to non existent, really the only difference you should see is just the POI change from each individual barrel which can be logged and repeatable. 5-10 rounds to confirm zero and you're done. If you go this route with a switch barrel I highly suggest shouldered barrels and not the barrel nuts so that you get consistent and repeatable headspace every single time. By going with multiple barrels you're not compromising as much and you have much more flexibiity.

As to calibers, for just one caliber I'd be doing 6.5 Creedmoor or 6.5x47L because they both offer excellent performance and have top quality brass available too. They're both very easy to tune and there's no fire forming required. If you want to consider PRS stats then you can also say that they're the two most popular 6.5's among top shooters. 6.5 Creedmoor is probably the most popular round in PRS as a whole.

6mm is a lot more tricky to decide on because the ones that perform well across the board burn barrels at a fast rate, and the ones that don't burn barrels as bad will be marginal for further distance. I used to run 243 because of the case capacity and used H1000 and it worked well. The last couple years I've been unable to get a lot of H1000 that performed well in the 243 like I used to. The lots still perform great in high capacity magnums so I know they're good lots, but I think Hodgdon may have changed something with the powder. I switched to H4350 to get the velocity and performance and it burns barrels just as fast as the other fast 6mm's. IMO all of the 6's that drive 105's over 3000 FPS are barrel burners and I believe that any difference between them as far as barrel life is negligible. H1000 did give me great barrel life but it's no longer working for whatever reason.

The fast 6mm's really aren't appealing to me anymore. I've shot a lot of 243, some 6 Creed, and some 6x47L. Rounds that give 4 matches of optimal performance after break in just aren't for me. I want decent barrel life, easy tuning, and a round that stays in tune for a long time.

IMO 2 barrels/calibers is your huckleberry. I'd get a 223 bolt for your action and toss in a 223 barrel for cheap practice and to save your other barrels while you're at it.

 

[hlee]

Just to expand on the hunting v target rifle. A hunting rifle is a rifle you drag around while you hunt. It is carried often and shot little. A target rifle rifle, on the other hand, is carried from the car to the bench, then shoot a lot. If you are sitting in a box blind, waiting on a deer to show up in a field, you don’t need a rifle that carries well over miles of rocky mountainous terrain. If you want one that does both, realize that the type of hunting you are doing is actually target shooting at living targets. If you can’t get within 100 yards of your quarry you aren’t really hunting anyway.

 

[MolassesTreeJ]

Hlee, I am able to agree with your comments. There has been plenty of whitetail taken with the pre64 winchester model 94. There has also been plenty of times that those four-legged animals literally out ran my two legs. When they cross that 250-300yard sprint and stop at an endrow.. ole lever gun not doing it for me.

I know exactly what you mean. Archery has also been in the mix.

Redneck, you truly feel that the 264 cal will outlast those small capacity 243 cal chamberings?

It seems like the 6dasher is lasting near the same barrel life as the 6.5creed and 6.5x47

You do make an amazing point. I was intending a shouldered barrel for ease. Now.. that with the changeable bolt head.. makes things different.

Perhaps I should look into a 6.5 wsm wildcat and a 6dasher. The wsm will fit in a short action magazine length, yes? I believe 7 rounds was reported for fitting in a 10round magazine?

I do have a few of ar15's. The 223 is a novel idea however - would probably keep the ar's regulated for that.

Thank you guys! More help please?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

The small capacity 6’s? No probably not, they should be about equal. 2500-3000 rounds is what I’d expect from either, ask me next year and I’ll be able to tell you.

I wouldn’t go with a 6.5 short mag, I’ve yet to see one feed 100% reliably with the AICS pattern mags that are currently on the market. 6.5 Creedmoor or 6.5x47L are more than capable of the hunting you’re looking to do. Anything more and you’ll want a bigger bullet, not just a little more speed.

 

[steve123]

I saw 'bullets.com' had the 6mm norma dasher but it is discontinued? Hmm.

Months ago other Co's were going to start carrying the second version of the 6mm Dasher Norma brass. It hasn't been mentioned again on that other site that I know of so I made an inquiry. Hopefully some will know and I'll get back to you.

If not, 25 Dasher with Lapua brass and fireforming it is.

 

[MolassesTreeJ]

What is wrong with the 6.5 wsm? In terms of feeding..

It looks like a good projectile would make it plenty lethal to medium game quite well. Granted it would likely get rebarreled very quickly, 20-50 shots a year would give a long 'lifetime'.

Woodleigh offers a 160gr flat base with a .500BC rating. Even to 600yds, thought ought hammer with plenty of north america game taking energy.

Not arguing, just curious. I see a few others in the 160gr area. I think hornady. Would think a person could practice a little and get the 160gr even farther.

The 6.5mm has a good reputation of taking game. Some people even claim elephants. Though, I know nothing of this personally.

Please fill me in with more information. I appreciate your insight, a lot.

Thank you

 

[redneckbmxer24]

The issue with feeding short mag rounds from AICS pattern mags is the lack of a quality mag options for the short mags. You take what little there is and try to make it work, or deal with the issues.

I just don't see why you'd want to over complicate things and go to a magnum when a standard 6.5 will fulfill your needs and provide you a second viable option for matches as well.

 

[MolassesTreeJ]

Unsure how well these are reviewed..

http://www.matrixballistics.com/.264-Caliber-hunting-bullets.html

That gives the impression of working well.

The accurate magazine company offers a double stack, single feed 300wsm box mag either 3 or 7 rounds.

It seems like to me.. there is no need beyond a 6dasher for PRS. Now.. if a person could use that 257cal 131gr in a necked up dasher.. that would be interesting.

To be honest - I dislike the creedmoor. It is like a mercury leadsled with a 350chevy. 'Why did you go with a 350SBC?' "It is the best. Cheap, available, does everything." 'It is a 1938 Mercury..'

Ever watch super troopers? 'I would like a liter of cola.' "Liter of cola.. liter of cola.. do we make liter of cola?" ... ... "Just take a large, Farva.." 'I dont want a large farva, I want a damned liter of cola'.

Creedmoor is a hype to me. No stepping on toes.. just, it is a facelifted 260rem. With a big marketing push behind it.

It is why my gas rifles use keymod over mlok. Mlok just.. does not do it for me. A lot of hype, a lesser product.

A small, low recoil round is good for targets.. a big one with mulekicks are better for game.

After the push of conversation to, "use multiple chamberings and bolts".. why use that vanilla generic do all then? Other options became available at this point.

I mean everything in good standing. No offense. No defense. No problems are being made. I am grateful for all the help. You all are doing me right and definitely good in my book.

Thak you all! Appreciated. Keep learning me more.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Seems like you're set in your ways, just go Dasher then. Creedmoor is a great round and many great shooters results go against your assessment of the round. It's as popular as it is because it works and has tons of factory support. It's most certainly not a 260 with a facelift. It's got features the 260 doesn't that makes it more accurate and consistent like the straighter body, sharper shoulder angle, and longer neck. The only similarities is that it has the same bolt face diameter and bullet diameter.

I was stubborn and set in my ways for a long time too, it's part of the reason I shot 243 for so long. It worked, but other rounds work better. But you should buy one because, you know, dasher is just a 243 with a face lift, and I've got a lot of 243 brass I'd love to sell you.

 

[MolassesTreeJ]

Already have a savage bolt action in 6.5creed, want to buy it? Less than 20 rounds down tube. Been in vault #3 for almost five years. Bought it during the hype. Take that for what you will. No one I know has any interest in the thing.

Seems to me.. in a PRS game, dasher will win every time. For half the cost of a barrel, whidden sells hydroforming tools. I have a trashbin full of spent primers.

Not arguing with you at all. I was already directed by a well placing prs shooter that 6dasher was king. The comments here, coupled to being matched with outstanding accuracy proven elsewhere.. I am sure of using it now, over the 6slr/cm. The mention of changing bolts.. you are right, there are better chambers to be used with a larger headstamp for hunting. Even if I net 600 rounds of use.. at 100 rounds a year with that 6.5wsm, that is a long time.

Appreciated everyone. Thank you again.

 

[Rob01]

I love when someone comes in here asking questions and then tells everyone answering they are wrong. LOL A guy with at least 3 vaults full of guns should probably know more about all this shouldn't he?

Maybe if you put more than 20 rounds through the Creedmoor you would know more about what it is capable of but probably easier to just call it hype. Got to love the internet. LOL

 

[lennyo3034]

Seems to me.. in a PRS game, dasher will win every time.

I was already directed by a well placing prs shooter that 6dasher was king.

You've already stated that you're not going to be competing in PRS, so why does this matter?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Already have a savage bolt action in 6.5creed, want to buy it? Less than 20 rounds down tube. Been in vault #3 for almost five years. Bought it during the hype. Take that for what you will. No one I know has any interest in the thing.

Well your first mistake was buying a Savage.

3 vaults though, impressive. You'd think that with money like that one wouldn't be buying Savages and wouldn't be trying to build one rifle to cover multiple roles. I don't know what each one ran you but the concrete work, door, steel reinforcement and finishing on mine added more to the construction costs than a lot of people pay for a house.

 

[MolassesTreeJ]

Guys, got one for every chambering that is out there. Preparing for the end comes at a price. Aha.. it was an impulse buy. That accutrigger is not too terrible. I just much prefer other firearms.

I feel like everything is covered well enough. One can never ask a foolish question. There are only foolish answers.

I stated I would not be openly competing in PRS. Never said I was uninterested in wildcats, becoming a better marksman or valuing the expense of firing at range. The 6dasher seems much more low cost in a long term yield when able to turn and chamber barrels, reload and that means a lot. I was interested in seeing what the current consensus on the 6slr/6compmatch was when using powders like h1000. A lot of things popped up on google. From 2010-2015. The results were, 'the claims of barrel life are mostly advertisement.'

I never told anyone the way things are, only stated my personal views and offered mild insight. If you want to bash on me for that, ok. Go ahead. I am not here to chair warrior. I just wanted some information. Have lurked around here for a few months. I know nothing, never will know anymore.

I could retort about the reinforced concrete those vaults are in. This is not about measuring up. I had gym, I am not the king dingaling. Already know that.

Appreciated once more.

Thak you.

 

[BurnOut]

The thing about the marketing behind the Creedmoor is that it means that ammo is going to be more commonly available than some flavor of gee-whiz BR- based semi-wildcat. The ability to find off-the-shelf ammo is an absolute requirement for me in regard to hunting rifles. As spife mentioned, most of my collection tends to be bench-oriented (or at least not terribly hiking/carrying friendly)... I have a handful of dedicated hunting guns, all chambered in commonly found cartridges; 7.62x39, 300BLK, .270 Win, 30-06, and 338 WM. Upcoming builds include a 7mm RM and, relevant to this discussion, a 6mm Creedmoor.

My off-the-shelf ammo requirement means that my 6mm options are either .243 Win (or the AI variant) or the Creedmoor... and between those options, the Creedmoor is the clear winner. The ability to seat long projectiles without impeding on powder capacity AND provide smooth feeding make it the clear choice, IMO.

 

[rookie7]

The "jack of all trades" concept really doesn't work well when it comes to rifles. It can work, but not well.

AICS mags have 2 intentions: 1 - contain a lot of rounds 2 - fast reloads - neither of which are important when it comes to deer hunting in your environment. If it does, the "hunter" is a poor shot.

For your setup I would build 2 rifles or 1 rifle 2 barrels as redneckbmxer24 stated.

In no way would I consider the 6 dasher for your application. Screw targets - that concept is subordinate to performance on game if this is a hunting rifle.

You are in a box blind or tower? Shots up to and over 500 yards? 25-06, 270 are your friend. If you want to go old school 6.5x55.

If you have to build a wildcat and be different - 6.5-06.

You don't even need a short action for your application. THEN - scrap the idea of AICS mags and use a blind box. No question it will be better for hunting.

The rattling of mags and potential risk of it getting dropped is not worth it.

I would still build a rifle with a heavy and long barrel. If Remington wasn't so crappy lately the Sendero might meet your needs.

 

[Sheldon N]

If you all were going to throw large amount of money into a PRS Manners stock with their mini-chassis, ARC Nucleus action and a quality lens.. What 6mm chambering would you pick? Then, explain why.

More shooting paper and steel. Not going to openly compete in PRS. Max shot at game - 700yards. Have a shooting stand that views over 80acres. Whitetail deer. Nothing over 300lbs.

Mostly 300-800yds. Max of 1000 across the entire field.

You should buy 2 barrels and 2 bolt heads. One in 223, and one in 6.5x47.

223 because it's the easiest to load for (progressive press), cheapest to shoot, and is perfect for all around practice because it's low recoil, pleasant to shoot, plenty accurate to hit steel inside of 600 yards, and will make you a better shooter overall. I shoot my 223 probably 5x as much as any of my other calibers, and enjoy shooting it more.

6.5x47 because it's incredibly accurate even out to 1k yards and beyond, powerful enough to hunt with, probably one of the easiest to reload for (finding an accurate load), and will have better barrel life than all the 6mms (yes even the Dasher). It's also not so large as to be offensive to shoot or a barrel burner like a magnum.

The reason I say no to 6mm's is because you aren't shooting PRS or benchrest. The reason people go through fireforming/wildcatting and all the stuff that comes with it is for the competitive advantage of either benchrest accuracy or for low recoil positional shooting. You're not likely to see the accuracy difference between 6.5x47 and Dasher unless you are deep into competitve benchrest territory with fancy rests and fine tuned loads. And you don't need the low recoil for positional shooting. Everything else for you will be worse with the Dasher.... shorter barrel life, more difficult to mag feed, not as able to hunt your desired game.

And for context, I shoot Dasher and 6BRA as my PRS match caliber.

 

[prcomte]

I shoot a 6 comp match, and the only reason i continue to shoot 6 comp match is because I'm already set up for the cartridge. Custom dies are expensive. Find a 6mm caliber that has FACTORY support and shoot the hell out of it. You're making it way to complicated. Creedmoors just work. 243 win just works. 6x47 just works..Pick one and shoot the hell out of it. You'll have all the options you could want with dies, brass, data, etc. Personally I haven't been able to make H-1000 in the three barrels i have shot out. If you notice the people running H-1000 are running longer barrels, usually 26-28 inch. This is because you can't burn all the H-1000 through a short barrel thus creating erratic muzzle velocities. You also have more problems with donuts in the neck and how long you seat bullets. Make it easy on yourself. Choose an easy caliber.

 

[b6graham]

Why do these 'ask questions' 'argue answers' threads always come from 'new hide member'

 

[Blute308]

Just a few observations (And I'm admittedly biased). This site spends a lot of time talking about PRS, but when you listen to the type of shooting most people who are not actual PRS shooters are doing, it is much closer to F Class or long range bench rest than it is to PRS. (Stand hunting, flat range shooting, & prone shooting in the field) Yet, few people talk about the top calibers used in these disciplines. Two of the top calibers in F Class are strait 284 and 7mm RSAUM. They are excellent long range cartridges that are putting up top scores and yet both were originally designed with hunting mid size game in mind.

If you are looking to have your cake and eat it too (Good barrel life, long range capability, performs well on medium game) you would be hard pressed to find a better choice than these mid sized 7mm's. The Hornady 162 ELD-M has a G1 of .670 and mild recoil, the 180gr projectiles have a BC that is hard to believe and still don't kick any harder than your grandad's old 30-06.

Like every competitive event, PRS started out as a practical competition but after several years of folks looking to gain an edge by using specialized calibers and equipment, the gear you see on the line at a match has little in common with the equipment a hunter, military sniper, or marksman would want in the field. Most shooting competitions have about 5 years of usefulness before they become a carnival game. Small 6mm varmint cartridges that carry little kinetic energy to distant targets is an example of this. (I know I didn't win any friends with that last part, but give it some thought before you burn me at the stake.)

 

[steve123]

I saw 'bullets.com' had the 6mm norma dasher but it is discontinued? Hmm.

Months ago other Co's were going to start carrying the second version of the 6mm Dasher Norma brass. It hasn't been mentioned again on that other site that I know of so I made an inquiry. Hopefully some will know and I'll get back to you.

If not, 25 Dasher with Lapua brass and fireforming it is.

This was posted on that other site.//

"Graf and Sons will be carrying it but won’t be available till fall is what Norma said at NRA in May. "

 

[steve123]

Just a few observations (And I'm admittedly biased). This site spends a lot of time talking about PRS, but when you listen to the type of shooting most people who are not actual PRS shooters are doing, it is much closer to F Class or long range bench rest than it is to PRS. (Stand hunting, flat range shooting, & prone shooting in the field) Yet, few people talk about the top calibers used in these disciplines. Two of the top calibers in F Class are strait 284 and 7mm RSAUM. They are excellent long range cartridges that are putting up top scores and yet both were originally designed with hunting mid size game in mind.

If you are looking to have your cake and eat it too (Good barrel life, long range capability, performs well on medium game) you would be hard pressed to find a better choice than these mid sized 7mm's. The Hornady 162 ELD-M has a G1 of .670 and mild recoil, the 180gr projectiles have a BC that is hard to believe and still don't kick any harder than your grandad's old 30-06.

Like every competitive event, PRS started out as a practical competition but after several years of folks looking to gain an edge by using specialized calibers and equipment, the gear you see on the line at a match has little in common with the equipment a hunter, military sniper, or marksman would want in the field. Most shooting competitions have about 5 years of usefulness before they become a carnival game. Small 6mm varmint cartridges that carry little kinetic energy to distant targets is an example of this. (I know I didn't win any friends with that last part, but give it some thought before you burn me at the stake.)

I don't think many would argue your point, except it's about self spotting in PRS style matches, can't compensate if you can't see where you missed so recoil is a big factor.

But still there are matches that would favor the 7mm's. Like members mentioned, some guys have other rifles or other barrels. My answer is a 6.5 Saum, 140's at 3172 fps.

Out just this morning, no matter how I try to like it, 308 just does not do it for me for long range when the wind comes up, I knew that but I got a good deal on the rifle, so I revisited. Part of the reason I got it was long barrel life but what happened is it sits in the safe instead, well it's really windy all spring around here. Thinking hard about converting that 40x iron sighter to 284 Win!

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I don't think many would argue your point, except it's about self spotting in PRS style matches, can't compensate if you can't see where you missed so recoil is a big factor.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think the self spotting is blown a little out of proportion. I ran 300WM at the buckeye classic in may and I had no problem spotting every miss and impact, even on the positional stuff. In fact the positional stages (was mostly a prone match) were my strongest stages cleaning or almost cleaning all of them... Except the sling stage, I sucked that up really good, but it wasn't because I was shooting win mag.

Free recoiling may be a different story, but I don't shoot free recoil because I've found that even with 223 free recoil moves the gun enough to lose the target. Not sure how other guys are doing it, but it most certainly doesn't work for me.

 

[steve123]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think the self spotting is blown a little out of proportion. I ran 300WM at the buckeye classic in may and I had no problem spotting every miss and impact, even on the positional stuff. In fact the positional stages (was mostly a prone match) were my strongest stages cleaning or almost cleaning all of them... Except the sling stage, I sucked that up really good, but it wasn't because I was shooting win mag.

Free recoiling may be a different story, but I don't shoot free recoil because I've found that even with 223 free recoil moves the gun enough to lose the target. Not sure how other guys are doing it, but it most certainly doesn't work for me.

I tried running a TRG42 in 7 mag for a season. It didn't work for me. That's cool you can manage recoil that well. What do you weigh?

 

[RTH1800]

I think there is more going on with the OP than is apparent at first glance. Almost looks like a 6CM bash in the making. Clearly the guy is not looking for information.

 

[Rob01]

Just a few observations (And I'm admittedly biased). This site spends a lot of time talking about PRS, but when you listen to the type of shooting most people who are not actual PRS shooters are doing, it is much closer to F Class or long range bench rest than it is to PRS. (Stand hunting, flat range shooting, & prone shooting in the field) Yet, few people talk about the top calibers used in these disciplines. Two of the top calibers in F Class are strait 284 and 7mm RSAUM. They are excellent long range cartridges that are putting up top scores and yet both were originally designed with hunting mid size game in mind.

If you are looking to have your cake and eat it too (Good barrel life, long range capability, performs well on medium game) you would be hard pressed to find a better choice than these mid sized 7mm's. The Hornady 162 ELD-M has a G1 of .670 and mild recoil, the 180gr projectiles have a BC that is hard to believe and still don't kick any harder than your grandad's old 30-06.

Like every competitive event, PRS started out as a practical competition but after several years of folks looking to gain an edge by using specialized calibers and equipment, the gear you see on the line at a match has little in common with the equipment a hunter, military sniper, or marksman would want in the field. Most shooting competitions have about 5 years of usefulness before they become a carnival game. Small 6mm varmint cartridges that carry little kinetic energy to distant targets is an example of this. (I know I didn't win any friends with that last part, but give it some thought before you burn me at the stake.)

6mms have been being used in "PRS" matches since 2004. Nothing new. I don;t feel the need for the super light recoiling 6mms like the Dasher and the like as I can manage recoil fine without it. Hasve shot 300WM and down in matches without a problem. Also the sport has been around in matches since the 90s so well past 5 years.

And honestly "PRS" is just a game. People try and make it more than it is like some training for sniper missions in the deep dark bush or the great stalk of animals but it's not. It's a shooting game like any other. Try to make it more than it is and you will be disappointed.

 

[bab029]

but after several years of folks looking to gain an edge by using specialized calibers and equipment, the gear you see on the line at a match has little in common with the equipment a hunter, military sniper, or marksman would want in the field.

There's some truth to this, but I don't think "gamerism" is as widespread as this statement makes it sound. Solid fundamentals and solid dope carry the day, even against the heavy 6mms with 8-oz triggers.

All you really need to do well is rifle, bipod, gamechanger, dope. That's a tight setup that you can fit in a backpack, and bend into a lot of different roles. How much more practical does it have to be? You can take that same setup to Montana and shoot an elk tomorrow if your PT is up to it.

Just a counterpoint for the debate.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I tried running a TRG42 in 7 mag for a season. It didn't work for me. That's cool you can manage recoil that well. What do you weigh?

175, but I'm short and a little fat so it may be a center of gravity thing.

 

[Rob01]

And high pressure 6mms are great and all, but let a little rain start blowing around, and you'll be begging for some federal gold medal 175s. After you clear that casehead separation, that is.

What exactly does the rain have to do with it?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

What exactly does the rain have to do with it?

Moisture in the chamber raising pressure since it doesn't compress. Never seen it cause case head separation though and it's not going to unless someone is sizing there brass back to retard level. Blow primers and lock up a bolt, yes.

 

[Rob01]

Moisture in the chamber raising pressure since it doesn't compress. Never seen it cause case head separation though and it's not going to unless someone is sizing there brass back to retard level. Blow primers and lock up a bolt, yes.

I know that as anyone who shoots should but it would happen as easily in a .308 as it would in a 6mm. Didn't know what he was trying to infer.

 

[bab029]

I know that as anyone who shoots should but it would happen as easily in a .308 as it would in a 6mm. Didn't know what he was trying to infer.

Upon further reflection, I was working an edit to remove that as you guys were talking lol. I was at a match where a guy was having issues with 6 creed brass. Must be the exception, not the rule, as I hadn't run into it in person before.

 

[Rob01]

Upon further reflection, I was working an edit to remove that as you guys were talking lol. I was at a match where a guy was having issues with 6 creed brass. Must be the exception, not the rule, as I hadn't run into it in person before.

Ok but even the issue with the Creedmoor was not due to chambering but due to operator error in not keeping chamber dry.

 

[brianf]

6mms have been being used in "PRS" matches since 2004. Nothing new. I don;t feel the need for the super light recoiling 6mms like the Dasher and the like as I can manage recoil fine without it. Hasve shot 300WM and down in matches without a problem. Also the sport has been around in matches since the 90s so well past 5 years.

And honestly "PRS" is just a game. People try and make it more than it is like some training for sniper missions in the deep dark bush or the great stalk of animals but it's not. It's a shooting game like any other. Try to make it more than it is and you will be disappointed.

like Rob01just said Terry Cross was winning matches with .260 15 years ago, and my old teacher was using a 243 from mid 90's. Hell he was using a 300WSM when they first came out there is nothing supersecret going on.

just good old Prep, Skill and practice.

So Rob01, i guess you chuckle as well when guys show up with bloused pants.