PRS Talk 6mm creedmoor vs 6.5mm creedmoor for positional shooting?

[richthe1]

I currently have a 308 and as a beginner it is very difficult for me to spot my own hits/misses when shooting off barricades. I am planning to purchase a new rifle in either 6 creedmoor or 6.5 creedmoor and shoot factory ammo. I’m leaning heavily towards going 6 creedmoor because I have heard it has less recoil making it easier to spot shots when shooting off of barricades. When doing positional shooting, how much of a difference does it make going 6 creedmoor vs 6.5 creedmoor?

One reason I’m asking is because my ideal purchase would be a folding AIAT in 6 creedmoor, but that’s not an option from the factory and is at the top of my budget already. I am struggling to decide if I should purchase a “beginner” rifle (RPR/Howa Bravo) in 6 creedmoor or if I should choose the AIAT in 6.5 creedmoor.

 

[MountainHunter]

I'd just run the 6.5. I shot one all last season. My rifle weighed 13.5 pounds and I could see all my impacts so long as I loaded the rifle into my shoulder.

I'm running a 6x47 this year and if I don't load my rifle properly then I still don't see my impacts.

6.5 barrel will last longer and the ammo is cheaper. I'd take advantage of that fact and burn up a barrel or two in 6.5 before you go to 6 anything.

 

[Harveyn]

I went through the exact same decision as you and decided on 6.5. I'm in the process of getting a 6.5 CM barrel made up for my AI AT. I couldn't justify the extra cost of shooting a 6mm when you take into consideration barrel life. I plan to shoot 123 grain projectiles with an MTU contour barrel and a brake so it will keep the recoil to a minimum. When you start to get up around that weight (15-18 lbs) i think the recoil difference becomes somewhat negligable between 123s in 6.5 and 108-110s in 6mm.

If i were you, I'd save money and practice as much as possible. Once you become a proficient shooter and get good at wind reading, that's when you can exploit the ballistic advantage of the 6mm.

 

[LawnMM]

If you can't see impacts with a 308 you're unlikely to see them with a 6.5/6 Caliber either.

Is it a bit easier with lighter calibers when in wonky positions, sure, but that's taking advantage of skills built around a solid application of the fundamentals.

My point is that this is like saying I can't corner well in my Ford focus, will a Ferrari help? The answer is no. It will make it easier but only provided you know how in the first place.

When the caliber holds you back, switch, for now...more ammo, more practice, more shooting. Positional is tricky but you do the same stuff you do in prone. If you're having issues even in prone you need more work, not a new gun.

Caveat, this assumes your current rifle fits you properly. If you don't have an adjustable stock properly set up for you, specifically, you're spinning your wheels.

To answer your specific question, I doubt there's any noticeable difference in recoil between a 6.5 and a 6 but some muppet will claim they can tell the difference in two light calibers with muzzle brakes.

It's not the recoil that makes 6s popular, it's the ballistics.

 

[Krazy Korean]

I like the ballistics of a 6.5 better, but i prefer to see my shot and splash. My 6mm is a dasher and the ballistics is not why I, or anyone i know that shoots a small 6mm, shoots a 6mm... shooting positional, managing recoil, quicker followups, and being able to free recoil are all the positives... a 6br or dasher has no ballistic advantage over any of the decent 6.5 loads.

 

[Precision Underground]

People who need a 6 to see hits are not driving the rifle. This is a 6.5 from a wobbly ladder @400. The camera shakes when shots are fired and the video quality is very compressed so I can see hits in real time much clearer than this. This is using a little 4”x6” 3lb Bag, not a huge barricade bag.

 

[lte82]

EDIT.

 

[richthe1]

If you can't see impacts with a 308 you're unlikely to see them with a 6.5/6 Caliber either.

Is it a bit easier with lighter calibers when in wonky positions, sure, but that's taking advantage of skills built around a solid application of the fundamentals.

My point is that this is like saying I can't corner well in my Ford focus, will a Ferrari help? The answer is no. It will make it easier but only provided you know how in the first place.

When the caliber holds you back, switch, for now...more ammo, more practice, more shooting. Positional is tricky but you do the same stuff you do in prone. If you're having issues even in prone you need more work, not a new gun.

Caveat, this assumes your current rifle fits you properly. If you don't have an adjustable stock properly set up for you, specifically, you're spinning your wheels.

To answer your specific question, I doubt there's any noticeable difference in recoil between a 6.5 and a 6 but some muppet will claim they can tell the difference in two light calibers with muzzle brakes.

It's not the recoil that makes 6s popular, it's the ballistics.

Thanks for everyone’s thoughts so far.

As to your caveat, my rifle does not fit me well at all - it’s an old savage with an accustock. I’m looking forward to upgrading.

 

[Precision Underground]

Thanks for everyone’s thoughts so far.

As to your caveat, my rifle does not fit me well at all - it’s an old savage with an accustock. I’m looking forward to upgrading.

Rifle fitting well is a huge part of it. You have to have a relaxed shoulder so the recoil goes through it and into your body rather than bouncing off of it and making the gun jump around. The rifle fitting correctly makes it a lot easier to have a relaxed shoulder. Pull into your shoulder with your bicep while leaving your shoulder completely relaxed.

 

[Campguy308]

People who need a 6 to see hits are not driving the rifle. This is a 6.5 from a wobbly ladder @400. The camera shakes when shots are fired and the video quality is very compressed so I can see hits in real time much clearer than this. This is using a little 4”x6” 3lb Bag, not a huge barricade bag.

View attachment 7057282

SWFA for the win!

 

[LawnMM]

I like the ballistics of a 6.5 better, but i prefer to see my shot and splash. My 6mm is a dasher and the ballistics is not why I, or anyone i know that shoots a small 6mm, shoots a 6mm... shooting positional, managing recoil, quicker followups, and being able to free recoil are all the positives... a 6br or dasher has no ballistic advantage over any of the decent 6.5 loads.

It shoots flatter which matters when target distance is not certain. If you're shooting a 6 because of recoil advantage over a 6.5 may I ask your preferred brand of sanitary napkin?

 

[LawnMM]

Thanks for everyone’s thoughts so far.

As to your caveat, my rifle does not fit me well at all - it’s an old savage with an accustock. I’m looking forward to upgrading.

I think this is most of your problem. If it doesn't have an adjustable comb or length of pull, change it! That's hugely important for consistency and recoil management, even on a massive recoiling cartridge like the 308 ?

 

[Precision Underground]

SWFA for the win!

Man I love them. I don’t like busy reticles so short of spending $3k on a scope there is no reason to buy anything else. It was hazy and raining so it looks pretty rough in the vid but that’s not the norm.

 

[Campguy308]

Man I love them. I don’t like busy reticles so short of spending $3k on a scope there is no reason to buy anything else. It was hazy and raining so it looks pretty rough in the vid but that’s not the norm.

I love them too. Is that a fixed SS, or one of the HDs?

 

[Precision Underground]

I love them too. Is that a fixed SS, or one of the HDs?

5-20HD I have two of them and a 3-15 on a Valkyrie. They are all ridiculously good scopes for the money.

 

[Krazy Korean]

When is target distance not known in PRS? I have yet to go to a PRS match that has an unknown distance... What PRS or NRL match have you been to that had Unknown Distance targets? And look at the trends of the people at the finale. There's a reason people are going to smaller calibers and smaller cases..

 

[LawnMM]

The Snipers Hide Cup was (may still be) a PRS points match and never had known distances any of the 4-5yrs I shot it. 6s are ballistically superior in their trajectory, though less over 6.5s than say a 30 Cal. With decent bullet choices, wind is a wash between them.

Steel Safari is still an unknown distance match. Getting smaller bullets, up to speed with less powder, I'd call that an advantage. I wouldn't call some indiscernible difference in recoil between a 6 & 6.5 in an era of braked rifles an advantage.

Frankly, if you can't see your impacts with a 6.5 but somehow when God anoints your 6mm barrel and then you can...it's because your form sucks, not the giant recoil advantage.

That you've never been to an unknown distance match highlights your naivete. I was shooting these back before it became trendy with giant checks and Nascar references.

Most people are shooting 6s because they shoot well enough to understand lower trajectory is good for targets at distance (keep in mind there may well be ranging error on part of who set up the stage, seen that and you will too if you shoot these enough) and lower max ordinate means less exposure to higher/faster wind currents.

I'm not going to deny the benefits of a lighter recoiling caliber, especially over the 30 Cal's lots of guys used to use, but if you're seriously hyping recoil reduction as an advantage when talking 6 vs 6.5 that's the kind of argument people make when their form needs work or they base all their decisions on What The Pros Use articles rather than experience.

To summarize I'll put it a different way, if I pulled my 308 out of the safe, I'd place lower on the list than with my 6mm, but it would be because of ballistic performance, not my inability to manage recoil.

 

[morganlamprecht]

I could place wherever with 6 or 6.5, but I can still tell a difference when shooting them lol

Hell I can tell a difference between 55s vs 80s in 223

180s vs 195s in 28nosler

130 vs 140 in 6.5 creed

155 vs 168 vs 178 in 308

Just cause the difference doesn’t really affect my scores don’t mean it ain’t there

People shoot 6mm largely because it’s easier to manage recoil in compromised positions when great form isn’t always possible...period

 

[lawofsavage]

The Snipers Hide Cup was (may still be) a PRS points match and never had known distances any of the 4-5yrs I shot it. 6s are ballistically superior in their trajectory, though less over 6.5s than say a 30 Cal. With decent bullet choices, wind is a wash between them.

Steel Safari is still an unknown distance match. Getting smaller bullets, up to speed with less powder, I'd call that an advantage. I wouldn't call some indiscernible difference in recoil between a 6 & 6.5 in an era of braked rifles an advantage.

Frankly, if you can't see your impacts with a 6.5 but somehow when God anoints your 6mm barrel and then you can...it's because your form sucks, not the giant recoil advantage or outweighed by other factors.

That you've never been to an unknown distance match highlights your naivete. I was shooting these back before it became trendy with giant checks and Nascar references.

Most people are shooting 6s because they shoot well enough to understand lower trajectory is good for targets at distance (keep in mind there may well be ranging error on part of who set up the stage, seen that and you will too if you shoot these enough) and lower max ordinate means less exposure to higher/faster wind currents.

I'm not going to deny the benefits of a lighter recoiling caliber, especially over the 30 Cal's lots of guys used to use, but if you're seriously hyping recoil reduction as an advantage when talking 6 vs 6.5 that's the kind of argument people make when their form needs work or they base all their decisions on What The Pros Use articles rather than experience.

To summarize I'll put it a different way, if I pulled my 308 out of the safe, I'd place lower on the list than with my 6mm, but it would be because of ballistic performance, not my inability to manage recoil.

C’mon bro, it’s a sliding scale not a threshold. It makes zero sense to argue otherwise.

Whatever skill level you are at with managing recoil, you will be able to get more info from your shot with less recoil. You can’t argue that point. You can only argue that the differential is insignificant.

With that said, when you talk to people at matches, they can say whatever they want about why they choose a "small" 6 but the fact that they are shooting a 6br or dasher or whatever “small” 6 means they didn’t choose it for its "ballistics” because “bigger” 6’s are flatter with less wind but they chose the “small” 6 anyway. There was at least one other factor that was more important to that person.

I don’t get the distinction between 308, 6.5, and 6 recoil either. The limit for a 308 in tac division is a max of a 178 grain bullet with a max velocity of 2800 FPS. If we hold velocity constant at 2800 FPS and the weight of the rifle constant the recoil difference between a 6 with a 105 or even a 115 grain bullet at 2800 FPS and a 6.5 with a 147 grain bullet at 2800 FPS is going to be greater than or very close to the difference between the 6.5 using 147’s at 2800 and a 308 using 178’s at 2800.

 

[LawnMM]

Steering new shooters to a 6 over a 6.5 on the basis of recoil still feels disingenuous for some reason ?

Like trying to buy ability with money over practice. Shit I shoot a 6 but I don't remember ever thinking "this damn recoil, if only there was a way"

Poor articulation maybe

 

[Krazy Korean]

I will agree that the "what the pros use" list is biased due to sponsorships, deals, etc. If I pay 10 of the top 20 shooters to use an action I provide for free, they will still do well with it. But the caliber is usually up to what the shooter wants as long as it's made by the brass company that sponsors them. When a lot of the top tier guys are all swapping to smaller cases there is a reason. Recoil is easier to manage, faster follow up shots, cheaper to shoot, and you still reach out and touch all the same targets as a bigger 6/6.5/.30 but usually do better in the 800 and in targets that makes up a majority of the targets.
I have shot a national prs, a regional PRS match, and 3 league series matches that are setup the same way as a PRS match. None have had a single unknown distance. The only advantage I have found from more velocity is your holdovers are closer together so you don't have to hold a ton when shooting, which isn't much of a big deal. How many PRS matches have you shot in 2018/2019? The last snipers hide PRS match was November of 2017. I've had unknown distance stages in sniper/field matches..but none in a PRS match yet

 

[Krazy Korean]

lawnmm tell new guys to go for a 223, 6cm, or 6.5cm..with less emphasis on the 6.5. They are cheaper to shoot/reload... For a new shooter you need all the practice you can get. If they reload there's more options, but those 3 are good starting points. The 6.5 is the most expensive to reload but has the best wind knocking advantage, the 223 is dirt cheap to shoot, but gets shoved around by wind...the 6 is a happy medium and that's why I like 6mm for a new guy. The recoil and follow up shots is just an advantage

 

[LawnMM]

I will agree that the "what the pros use" list is biased due to sponsorships, deals, etc. If I pay 10 of the top 20 shooters to use an action I provide for free, they will still do well with it. But the caliber is usually up to what the shooter wants as long as it's made by the brass company that sponsors them. When a lot of the top tier guys are all swapping to smaller cases there is a reason. Recoil is easier to manage, faster follow up shots, cheaper to shoot, and you still reach out and touch all the same targets as a bigger 6/6.5/.30 but usually do better in the 800 and in targets that makes up a majority of the targets.
I have shot a national prs, a regional PRS match, and 3 league series matches that are setup the same way as a PRS match. None have had a single unknown distance. The only advantage I have found from more velocity is your holdovers are closer together so you don't have to hold a ton when shooting, which isn't much of a big deal. How many PRS matches have you shot in 2018/2019? The last snipers hide PRS match was November of 2017. I've had unknown distance stages in sniper/field matches..but none in a PRS match yet

Personally, I wish new guys would jump in with a 6.5 and run it a few years till they had enough time under their belts to identify weaknesses and address them properly.

I kick the What The Pros Use articles around a bit but I do like Cal Zant I just don't like how the articles tend to steer folks that don't understand what they're reading. It's where a lot of this "buy your way to the podium" mentality comes from.

Shot 3 NRL matches in '17, got the call for their finale but couldn't attend, zero in 18 (I'm off about 4 weekends per year) but did make two club PRS matches (7th & 4th if memory serves) pissed I couldn't have made a third, 3 NRL matches on the calendar this year, made it to none in 16' too because I was busy with Cancer, 4 Hide Cups in the years prior, don't remember the local stuff that far back. Why?

Most matches, at least with experienced MDs, are set up and ranged properly. I have seen some that weren't.

I think 6.5, particularly the Creedmoor, is good for new guys because the wind bucking is as good as anything out there and good choices for factory ammo. Most new guys don't reload from the word go. You can buy 6cm ammo now so maybe that's less an issue than it used to be.

 

[Krazy Korean]

I was wondering how many matches outside the snipers hide cup have UKD targets that you've experienced. The snipers hide cup I'm sure is more of a field/sniper match format as opposed to the typical PRS format. I personally enjoy the sniper style matches with the UKD, but EVERY PRS match I have been to has had accurate distances listed for every target except for 1 stage of 1 match because they moved back about 15 yards and the shots were 900-1300 yards, and at that distance the 15 yard difference was enough that people were off the bottom of the plate. Speed is overrated from what I have learned while shooting. A click or two more is easy to accommodate for, and 99% of targets have been listed correctly. Although I do know that one target at WAR was off, and they caught it by the 3rd squad and just took it out of the match for that day that I just remembered. But factory ammo and cost is a lot for a new guy to choose a caliber. I never recommend a BR cartridge or x47 to a new guy unless he has been reloading for years and plans to shoot a lot. I think the 223 is a great gun for new guys as well.

 

[LawnMM]

223 ain't just for new guys, I spent big bucks putting a progressive together last year while I was pissed I couldn't line any of these matches up with my schedule. I can buy/install at 223 barrel for practice for like $400 and if I get 4000-6000 rounds out of it that's maybe two seasons worth of practice between matches and I'm not burning up my cut rifled 6mm barrel.

The only issue with that for new guys is depending on the range the match goes out to they'd be handicapping themselves ballistically unless they had the means to switch the barrel out for a different caliber. That's way into the weeds and pocketbook for a lot of guys just starting out.

 

[ToddKS]

I have decided to stick with the 6.5 for now because of barrel life and because I do not have time to fire form brass. The amount of time I have to shoot is limited and I have decided that I don't want to spend that time fire forming brass. I looked at 6 Creedmoor but the guys I know running that caliber are not getting great barrel life.

 

[Dthomas3523]

It's not the recoil that makes 6s popular, it's the ballistics.

No it’s not. The 6.5’s aren’t that far off from the 6’s ballistically. The max ord isn’t high enough over a 6 for it to be in a different wind zone.

No top shooter switched from a 6.5 creed or 6.5x47 to squeak out marginal ballistics.

It’s absolutely about the lighter recoil.