73gr ELD M and CFE 223

[Ledzep]

I have a pile of CFE 223 and just got a bunch of the 73's. Been trying them in a new barrel and getting pretty horrible groups. I'm going to try some Hornady factory match and factory 55gr VMax ammo (has traditionally both shot very well for me) and see if it's the barrel or the bullet/powder. I had some leftover 75gr HPBT loads that shot 1.25-1.5" in my old barrel (10.5") @100yd. This barrel threw them around 3-4", so I'm kind of suspecting the barrel. ETA: New barrel is a Seekins Precision 16" 5r 1:8 twist.

In the mean time I'm curious to see if anyone else has had success with this bullet/powder combo. I'm not looking for gnat's ass, but if I could get 10 rounds under 1.25" @ 100yd I'd be very happy. Right now everything has been 1.75-3.5"

 

[JimmyT]

Have some bullets that are coming soon. I will try TAC and Varget.... and have a pound of CFE 223 hiding in the back too.

 

[USMC 308]

Some additional info in this thread....not sure if you've seen it.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/223-eldm.6888851/#post-7079020

 

[gregsjt]

I had a hard time with 73's in my AR. The 75 BTHP's worked a lot better with a variety of powders.

 

[FLIGHT762]

I had a hard time with 73's in my AR. The 75 BTHP's worked a lot better with a variety of powders.

I had the exact same thing. I can't get the 73's to shoot well in two uppers, a 20" Service Rifle WOA and a 18" Rainier Super Match SPR. The Rainier shoots the 75 Hornady OTM very well.

Tried a bunch of proven powders, no dice.

 

[cleric]

Not saying this is fact. But have heard tipped bullets in ar are less forgiving then open tip. I bought some 69tmk and couldn’t get them to shoot. 69bthp were good to go for me

 

[Ledzep]

I checked my barrel out with the 73's and they're jumping like .140-.150 at mag length. After I test some factory match 73's, and 55 Vmax's, if they shoot well I will try single loading a few of them out at .020 off the lands to see if it makes a drastic improvement.

If the factory ammo doesn't shoot well (under 1.75" @ 100), I'm going to give SP a call and see if they'll work with me.

The only other thing I've thought to do is buck up for something like the VLTOR MUR in hopes that the upper is playing a part in this but I'm not really convinced of that. Results so far have just been way sporadic.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Can't speak about either the 73's or the CFE 223, but have found the HDY 75 HPBT-Match and Varget to be essentially staple components for nearly all my AR Uppers. I use standard pattern metal magazines.

I say nearly because I never even considered trying them in 16" 1:9" barrels. Maybe I should.

Greg

 

[lennyo3034]

A few friend just tried the 73 with various powders. Couldn't get them to shoot. I'm not going to waste my time.

 

[bunsen27]

I've had great success (sub MOA) with the 73gr ELD-M's in bolt guns with both Varget and TAC. My JP upper loves the Hornady 73gr Match factory ammo. I'm working on a clone load with TAC presently and have found around 23.8gr to be close. I need to do an OCW test to pinpoint the node though.

I've not had good success with CFE and anything heavier than 69gr. For reference 25.8gr of CFE under a Hornady 55gr VMax is a great clone load for the factory offering.

 

[Ledzep]

No luck so far. Varget and cfe both are giving me pretty wide spreads with 73s. 55gr Vmaxs were under an inch for 10 rounds first group. I want to try some 75 hpbts but it's nice knowing at least the vmax will work.

 

[JimmyT]

How are you working up your loads?

I plan on starting 2.2 grains below max an loading single rounds on .2 grin progression. I’ll fire in sequence over my Magnitospeed and record the velocity to see if there are two or more close together, signifying a flat spot or accuracy node. I will then load 10each at the flat spot nd .2 of a grain high and low to CCI grouping.

 

[Ledzep]

CFE 223, First tried 23.0gr
No crimp (10 rounds for all)
slight crimp
light crimp (light crimp marks on the brass, bullet appears not to be deformed)
heavy crimp (very slight visible deformation of the bullet @ the crimp)

all shot 1.5-4 MOA, light crimp was the most consistent @1.5 MOA..... With the crimp die set at the same setting as the previous "light crimp", 5 rounds each
23.0
23.2
23.6
24.0
24.2
24.4
24.6

Everything was a mess again, 1.5-3 MOA, worse as charge increased. All shot on a bench off front and rear bags, pulling the rifle into my shoulder, 100yd indoor tunnel. Varget I only tried 24.0 and 24.5 but the results were 2-3 MOA, also. So I think my barrel just doesn't like these bullets. The 55 Vmax factory ammo knotted up 10 rounds in about a 0.8-0.9" group in the same conditions.

I'm going to give 75gr hpbt's a shot, maybe 68gr hpbt's... Again, the only other thing I can think is to change the upper. I've had it since 2010 and haven't had agregious accuracy issues with it, but maybe the MUR or some other upper would shrink the groups down a little, but I can't imagine it would be drastic enough to make the 73's work. I just know I had consistently better results with my previous 10.5" barrel and 75 hpbt's than I'm having with this barrel and 73's.

So the plan going forward, I'll give 75's and 68's a shot-- probably no crimp and single load them at first to see if there's accuracy potential. If they don't work I'll probably buy the MUR out of curiosity. If no heavies ever shoot well out of it, I'm going to probably talk with Seekins. But Like I said, the 55's were knotting up sub-MOA for 10 shots so I'm hopeful going forward.

 

[padom]

Surprised your having issues. I tested 73 ELD-M's on here a while back with 8208XBR and they shoot lights out in my 20" Rainier Ultramatch 1:8. Havent tried them yet in my new Keystone Accuracy 20" Kreiger 1:7 but will be shortly.

For those wondering, these were shot out of ASC SS AR mags. They allow a COAL up to about 2.316". The below final load is in the 2.27" - 2.28" range. So these will not run in PMAGS but run no problem in steel mags.

OCW Test




Seating Depth Test





Final Load Confirmation 5 Shot Groups

 

[Ledzep]

Interesting. I have been doing everything at Pmag length. I'll try loading a few out to 2.300.

 

[padom]

Dont just load to 2.3".... Pick your OCW charge and then do a seating depth test. You'll find one that shrinks the group. As you see in the above seating depth test, they tighten up then opened up again as I loaded real close to the lands..

 

[Ledzep]

Gotcha. I already loaded a few at 2.305 just to see if it makes any appreciable difference. Even at that COAL I'm still jumping approximately .095-.100".

I believe I'd be touching the lands at right around 2.400" COAL, give or take a few thou. I wasn't incredibly careful with the measurement because it was so far from Pmag length that I knew I'd never be close with these bullets. My Pmag rounds were coming out around 2.258 or so for COAL.

I can run a proper seating depth test if this shows any promise. I'm also trying a little warmer powder charge near max published numbers, hoping that filling the case more may help with consistency.

I also loaded a few hpbt's today at Pmag magazine length. Not sure what the jump is on these, but the ogive is much shorter so I'm sure not as much as the 73 ELD's. I'll get out tonight around 7 or so and shoot them @ 100. Hopefully won't be too damn hot.

 

[padom]

75 BTHP and 77smk are optimal in the 2.248-2.250 range on like 7 different AR's. WOA's, Bartleins and Daniel Defense barrels all 1:7.

I found optimal with 73 ELD like I said 2.27-2.28. Shot like shot shorter and longer than that. So just saying you may not find what your looking for just loading to 2.3

 

[Ledzep]

I'm going to give the 73's one last chance, and that will be a seating depth test like you suggest. Seating to 2.305" with 24.5gr cfe223 showed some promise, about 1.9" group. However, upping the load density did not-- about a 4" spread.

75 bthp's @ 2.250" with 24.5gr cfe223 were a little over 1" for 5 rounds. I'd be happy if it did that consistently. Upping load density resulted in a pretty ugly spread here, also.

Do you think I'm better off testing charge weights first, then seating depth or visa versa?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Just give up on CFE with heavy bullets and go straight to 8208 XBR. You'll be happier and it'll probably even make your dick bigger.

 

[Triple D]

Like Padom said, try the 73’s and 8208 at just over typical mag length (2.27x). I also had good results with RL-15 and the 73’s. Two Rainier ultramatch barrels delivered sub half moa groups when developing the load. Almost there with a Larue barrel as well, but that barrel seems to throw 1/5 to open up the group to just at MOA.

Running modified P-mags. Can load out to 2.285, maybe longer.

 

[padom]

I'm going to give the 73's one last chance, and that will be a seating depth test like you suggest. Seating to 2.305" with 24.5gr cfe223 showed some promise, about 1.9" group. However, upping the load density did not-- about a 4" spread.

75 bthp's @ 2.250" with 24.5gr cfe223 were a little over 1" for 5 rounds. I'd be happy if it did that consistently. Upping load density resulted in a pretty ugly spread here, also.

Do you think I'm better off testing charge weights first, then seating depth or visa versa?

You cant just pick charge weights. If you didnt do an OCW test and pick the charge in the center of the node then you need to do that first before doing a seating test

 

[Ledzep]

Welp, faith restored. I loaded a OCW test at 2.275". 23.5, 23.8, 24.1, 24.5, 24.8, 25.1. Somewhere around 24.0 is the middle of the node. Most of them were acceptable; under 1.5" @ 100yd. So I'm going to load up a bunch at 24.0 and play with seating depth, then see how they shoot out of a magazine (I've been single loading) to see if I need to mess with crimping them.

I'll probably have to get some metal magazines, which is no big deal. I intend to load some 50-55gr bullets as well (53gr Vmax I think) which will easily work in the Pmags I have. I have a couple thousand cases to load up and I was thinking about 500 precision/LR rounds and the rest the lighter bullets.

 

[JimmyT]

In my Ar, I am coming into an accuracy node at 23 grains of CFE 223. I have 30 loaded at 2.26" and will test at 200 yard in the next few days and get velocity over a chrono. If I run 3" or more at 200 yards, I will try the whole setup again with a load ladder using Varget.

 

[JimmyT]

BTW, just for laughs and giggles I bought one box of the 73 gran ELD match rounds from hornady. Would not group consistantly under 2" for 5 shots in two rifles I had with me. 18" PredatOBER and 16" frankenrifle with LaRue barrel.

 

[232593]

Surprised your having issues. I tested 73 ELD-M's on here a while back with 8208XBR and they shoot lights out in my 20" Rainier Ultramatch 1:8. Havent tried them yet in my new Keystone Accuracy 20" Kreiger 1:7 but will be shortly.

For those wondering, these were shot out of ASC SS AR mags. They allow a COAL up to about 2.316". The below final load is in the 2.27" - 2.28" range. So these will not run in PMAGS but run no problem in steel mags.

OCW Test




Seating Depth Test





Final Load Confirmation 5 Shot Groups

How far off the lands did your final load end up being?

 

[padom]

How far off the lands did your final load end up being?

2.275

 

[232593]

2.275

2.275” off the lands?

 

[padom]

2.275” off the lands?

Uh no that's coal. Lands measurement means nothing to me in an AR it's way farther than you can load in a mag. 223 Wylde chamber.. 2.275 coal

 

[bfoosh006]

@padom​

Sorry about the font size... sometimes my computer thinks it knows what is best... Lol​

Just an FWIW... Hornady Flat Meplat Tech.. "Drag Variability Reduction Technology"​

​

I wonder if this "might help explain" why some polymer tipped bullets can be so fussy to reload. Or at least contributing to the fussy aspect.​

https://www.hornady.com/dvrt​

​

 

[MontanaMan]

Surprised your having issues. I tested 73 ELD-M's on here a while back with 8208XBR and they shoot lights out in my 20" Rainier Ultramatch 1:8.

CFE-223 is a piss poor sub for 8208.

While the CFE is OK for general loads, I have not gotten best accuracy, compared to several other more favorite powders, with several different bullets.

MM

 

[232593]

Surprised your having issues. I tested 73 ELD-M's on here a while back with 8208XBR and they shoot lights out in my 20" Rainier Ultramatch 1:8. Havent tried them yet in my new Keystone Accuracy 20" Kreiger 1:7 but will be shortly.

For those wondering, these were shot out of ASC SS AR mags. They allow a COAL up to about 2.316". The below final load is in the 2.27" - 2.28" range. So these will not run in PMAGS but run no problem in steel mags.

OCW Test




Seating Depth Test





Final Load Confirmation 5 Shot Groups

How much neck tension did you use? Or did you apply a crimp?

 

[padom]

How much neck tension did you use? Or did you apply a crimp?

0.003 and no crimp

 

[LRRPF52]

CFE-223 is a piss poor sub for 8208.

While the CFE is OK for general loads, I have not gotten best accuracy, compared to several other more favorite powders, with several different bullets.

MM

Yup. It’s basically like the age-old conundrum with the AR-15 and propellants between what it was engineered around (IMR4475 stick powder), vs what the DoD could get made consistently or make it through MAP/MPLM/MPSM batch-testing (WC846 ball propellant).

IMR4475 tiny extruded propellant is similar to 8208XBR.

WC846 ball powder is similar to CFE223, AA2520, and BL-C(2).

The ball powders are great for mass production, metering, consistency, and are very forgiving with chamber pressure, but port pressure is higher and fouling is quite noticeable. Not the best SDs and groups, though not terrible.

The tiny stick powders are great for more complete burning with minimal cellulose residue, tend to be very accurate, but have higher chamber pressures and lower port pressure, and are more difficult to manufacture consistently.

We’ve seen 8208XBR become more energetic lately, demonstrably-so in the new Hodgdon’s load data.

It’s a great reminder that you can’t just buy the same powder off the shelf, go home, and start cranking out your personal recipe you found with another lot of powder 3 years ago.

 

[232593]

0.003 and no crimp

And you used Lake City brass right? Standard buffer or a heavy one?

 

[padom]

And you used Lake City brass right? Standard buffer or a heavy one?

Fully prepped LC.. JP SCS tuned with spring pack and AGB

 

[B Man]

There’s a reason so few talk about them. If accuracy was great trust me you would see a lot more being a tipped heavy high (for 223 ar) bc bullet. They were “ok” for me. 1.25 moa at 500 yards. Hard to go for with the old 77 SMK’s shooting half that and every AR barrel I have loves them.

 

[Ledzep]

Welp, faith restored. I loaded a OCW test at 2.275". 23.5, 23.8, 24.1, 24.5, 24.8, 25.1. Somewhere around 24.0 is the middle of the node. Most of them were acceptable; under 1.5" @ 100yd. So I'm going to load up a bunch at 24.0 and play with seating depth, then see how they shoot out of a magazine (I've been single loading) to see if I need to mess with crimping them.

I'll probably have to get some metal magazines, which is no big deal. I intend to load some 50-55gr bullets as well (53gr Vmax I think) which will easily work in the Pmags I have. I have a couple thousand cases to load up and I was thinking about 500 precision/LR rounds and the rest the lighter bullets.

Holy necro thread! Look at what I said!!!

The more you know...

For some background, this post was made during my initial internship at Hornady and shortly thereafter there was a slight tweak done to the boat-tail on the 73gr ELD-M that made it much more agreeable in AR-15's. Personal thoughts at this point, though, were that the barrel I had just didn't like them, and I was also gunning for speed to try to make a 16" 5.56 "viable" for 800yd. Don't really remember how it turned out but I think I just lowered expectations and moved onto other projects (6mm ARC).

 

[232593]

Holy necro thread! Look at what I said!!!

The more you know...

For some background, this post was made during my initial internship at Hornady and shortly thereafter there was a slight tweak done to the boat-tail on the 73gr ELD-M that made it much more agreeable in AR-15's. Personal thoughts at this point, though, were that the barrel I had just didn't like them, and I was also gunning for speed to try to make a 16" 5.56 "viable" for 800yd. Don't really remember how it turned out but I think I just lowered expectations and moved onto other projects (6mm ARC).

It may be a necro-thread but it’s a useful one.

 

[padom]

I found the 73 ELD to be a picky bullet across many AR match barrels that shoot 77smk really well. But, for example Shilen ratchet barrels liked them and Rainier Ultramatch when they were using shilen blanks... But other high end AR barrels I had, Bartlein, Krieger, Wilson, didnt like them.

So yes, they were a picky bullet for me

 

[232593]

I found the 73 ELD to be a picky bullet across many AR match barrels that shoot 77smk really well. But, for example Shilen ratchet barrels liked them and Rainier Ultramatch when they were using shilen blanks... But other high end AR barrels I had, Bartlein, Krieger, Wilson, didnt like them.

So yes, they were a picky bullet for me

I have one upper with a 24” Krieger 1:7 5.56 chamber that likes them. My older Stag Varminter did NOT like them at all.

I have a new 24” 1:7 Krieger with a Wilde chamber and +2 gas system that I am currently testing with TAC and soon N140 & ARCOMP. So far I have only found one velocity node at 2930 or so with TAC.

 

[232593]

I found the 73 ELD to be a picky bullet across many AR match barrels that shoot 77smk really well. But, for example Shilen ratchet barrels liked them and Rainier Ultramatch when they were using shilen blanks... But other high end AR barrels I had, Bartlein, Krieger, Wilson, didnt like them.

So yes, they were a picky bullet for me

Padom, still 1.824 CBTOL or did you find a better seating depth?

 

[padom]

Padom, still 1.824 CBTOL or did you find a better seating depth?

Nope that's what shoots tight in my Ultramatch.

These are picky bullets... they don't shoot great in every one of my AR's.

 

[232593]

Nope that's what shoots tight in my Ultramatch.

These are picky bullets... they don't shoot great in every one of my AR's.

This is what I got from a 1.826” CBTOL, 23.9 grains of ARCOMP in new LC brass with FED215M primer