I'm looking for an upper for my DPMS that I can use against elk. Preferably something with a bit more umph than a 308. Something that shoots a bit flatter and hits a bit harder. Any suggestions?
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7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
- Thread starter utnapishtim
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Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
Bullet placement > caliber when it comes to killing things. Put either round in the appropriate place and the elk will be dead, very quickly. Id go 6.5 for cheaper match ammo, just my .02.
Bullet placement > caliber when it comes to killing things. Put either round in the appropriate place and the elk will be dead, very quickly. Id go 6.5 for cheaper match ammo, just my .02.
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
7mm will be flatter, but not necessarily more energy. Same with the creedmore which was made as a target round, not a hunting round. If you want a 6.5mm hunting round, you need to look at the 260 rem which is a great round and very flat shooting. I dont know if I would use it for elk, but its a great round for white tail.
You wont find as much of a factory selection in 6.5mm and 7mm loaded with heavy bone smashing bullets like you will a 308. Match bullets are not hunting bulets. Dont use something like FGMM for hunting they dont expand and most times will make a clean little hole without transferring much energy to the target. Hitting is only part of the problem, transferring energy and tissue distruction is the other part of hunting bullets.
In fact for factory loadings, you wont find anything with as much of a selection as a 308.
Heavy for 7mm is a 150 grains and a 6.5mm heavy is 140 grains.
For hunting Elk you will be taking shots at reasonable distances and the 308 zeroed at 200 yards will be good for minimal holdover out to 250-300 yards. Beyond that you will have to know the real distance and know the dope for the load you are shooting.Probably shouldnt be taking 500 yard shots at elk anyway.
The 260 loaded hot will keep the crosshairs in the kill box well past 300 yards, but I dont know if I would trust the 260 to carry enough energy to take down a big elk at 350 yards...
Look into hornady's light magnum loading which is basicly +P rifle ammo. They have some premium hunting bullets loaded very hot and the extra speed will flatten out the trajectory a little. But for elk, its hard to beat the proven record of bone smashing bullets in 30 cal. The partion, the core-lokt, trophy bonded, and A-frame bullets are all loaded by a few different companies in the 308. All proven on big game, and flat enough for the ranges you should be taking shots at elk.
Just because you think you can hit an elk at 500 yards doesnt mean you should try.
7mm will be flatter, but not necessarily more energy. Same with the creedmore which was made as a target round, not a hunting round. If you want a 6.5mm hunting round, you need to look at the 260 rem which is a great round and very flat shooting. I dont know if I would use it for elk, but its a great round for white tail.
You wont find as much of a factory selection in 6.5mm and 7mm loaded with heavy bone smashing bullets like you will a 308. Match bullets are not hunting bulets. Dont use something like FGMM for hunting they dont expand and most times will make a clean little hole without transferring much energy to the target. Hitting is only part of the problem, transferring energy and tissue distruction is the other part of hunting bullets.
In fact for factory loadings, you wont find anything with as much of a selection as a 308.
Heavy for 7mm is a 150 grains and a 6.5mm heavy is 140 grains.
For hunting Elk you will be taking shots at reasonable distances and the 308 zeroed at 200 yards will be good for minimal holdover out to 250-300 yards. Beyond that you will have to know the real distance and know the dope for the load you are shooting.Probably shouldnt be taking 500 yard shots at elk anyway.
The 260 loaded hot will keep the crosshairs in the kill box well past 300 yards, but I dont know if I would trust the 260 to carry enough energy to take down a big elk at 350 yards...
Look into hornady's light magnum loading which is basicly +P rifle ammo. They have some premium hunting bullets loaded very hot and the extra speed will flatten out the trajectory a little. But for elk, its hard to beat the proven record of bone smashing bullets in 30 cal. The partion, the core-lokt, trophy bonded, and A-frame bullets are all loaded by a few different companies in the 308. All proven on big game, and flat enough for the ranges you should be taking shots at elk.
Just because you think you can hit an elk at 500 yards doesnt mean you should try.
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
Could you explain to me how the creedemore would be different than the 260 in hunting applications? Not seeing your logic here, since they push the same weight bullets at essentially the same speed....
Could you explain to me how the creedemore would be different than the 260 in hunting applications? Not seeing your logic here, since they push the same weight bullets at essentially the same speed....
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: idahoshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could you explain to me how the creedemore would be different than the 260 in hunting applications? Not seeing your logic here, since they push the same weight bullets at essentially the same speed.... </div></div>
Probably just the factory loadings available. More hunting loads for the 260.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: idahoshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could you explain to me how the creedemore would be different than the 260 in hunting applications? Not seeing your logic here, since they push the same weight bullets at essentially the same speed.... </div></div>
Probably just the factory loadings available. More hunting loads for the 260.
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
So, assuming I'm headed west, and I might get a shot on a bull at 300-400 yards (my maximum comfortable distance for hitting a pie plate), would I be okay using my 18" barreled upper, or do you think a longer barrel would be better? I know Lowlight likes the shorter barrels for bolt guns, and a fair amount of math backs that up, but I'm wondering if the same holds true for a gas gun.
Thanks!
So, assuming I'm headed west, and I might get a shot on a bull at 300-400 yards (my maximum comfortable distance for hitting a pie plate), would I be okay using my 18" barreled upper, or do you think a longer barrel would be better? I know Lowlight likes the shorter barrels for bolt guns, and a fair amount of math backs that up, but I'm wondering if the same holds true for a gas gun.
Thanks!
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
6.5 Swede has been killing moose quite reliably for decades.
Or so I'm told.
Yeah, .308 has a lot more bullet selection. I don't know how many beyond "more than enough" it is.
140-gr A-Max bullets probably aren't right for elk, but I'd defer to Hornady on that. There are enough options in 6.5, especially if you include the European makers' bullets.
Me, I vote for Creedmoor because the company actually supports the round AND appears to be avoiding the recent trend of price-gouging the shooting community.
6.5 Swede has been killing moose quite reliably for decades.
Or so I'm told.
Yeah, .308 has a lot more bullet selection. I don't know how many beyond "more than enough" it is.
140-gr A-Max bullets probably aren't right for elk, but I'd defer to Hornady on that. There are enough options in 6.5, especially if you include the European makers' bullets.
Me, I vote for Creedmoor because the company actually supports the round AND appears to be avoiding the recent trend of price-gouging the shooting community.
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
If you are going elk hunting, any of the choices listed here will do. It depends on you, as mentioned above you MUST hit it right regardless of caliber/bullet design. A .308 is a great round for elk and has a great selection of bullets. The 7-08 would also be a good one with maybe the heavier end amax. The .260/creedmore would do the job fine I'm sure as well. <span style="font-weight: bold">providing you put the bullet in the right spot.</span>
With the scenario you describe, 400yd max range I dont think you can go wrong with any of them, as long as you practice. I shot a bull last year at 560yds with my .308 and a 175smk, and this year a guy next to me shot one at 700yds with the 162 Amax in his 7mm. the important thing is that both of the shots were good ones, neither elk went farther than gravity and momentum would carry them.
If you are going elk hunting, any of the choices listed here will do. It depends on you, as mentioned above you MUST hit it right regardless of caliber/bullet design. A .308 is a great round for elk and has a great selection of bullets. The 7-08 would also be a good one with maybe the heavier end amax. The .260/creedmore would do the job fine I'm sure as well. <span style="font-weight: bold">providing you put the bullet in the right spot.</span>
With the scenario you describe, 400yd max range I dont think you can go wrong with any of them, as long as you practice. I shot a bull last year at 560yds with my .308 and a 175smk, and this year a guy next to me shot one at 700yds with the 162 Amax in his 7mm. the important thing is that both of the shots were good ones, neither elk went farther than gravity and momentum would carry them.
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
I think you have 7mmRM in mind saying that the 7mm will be flatter.
With regards to the 6.5C or 7-08 question, I can't offer much help-I have a 7-08 as my goto boltgun and a 6.5C as my goto gasgun....
I know I'dlike them both to be the same caliber, but can't decide which I want to keep......
I'm leaning 6.5C, but that's because I hunt steel and paper. If I hunted flesh and blood I'd most likely go with the 7-08.
I think you have 7mmRM in mind saying that the 7mm will be flatter.
With regards to the 6.5C or 7-08 question, I can't offer much help-I have a 7-08 as my goto boltgun and a 6.5C as my goto gasgun....
I know I'dlike them both to be the same caliber, but can't decide which I want to keep......
I'm leaning 6.5C, but that's because I hunt steel and paper. If I hunted flesh and blood I'd most likely go with the 7-08.
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
First, I'm presuming an AR-10 platform not an AR 15 platform.
I just got done posting on another forum how the .308 is plenty adequate for elk out to 400 yds. by the "power" rule. If you plan on shooting that far you will have enough "power" to do so. That said you can look into a 7mm-08. There are good hunting bullets for that all the way up to 180 gr. Just make sure you get the right twist of at least 1-9". A Creedmoor and a .260 are going to be about the same velocity wise, and they are exactly the same bullet wise. That is definitely the 6 of either/half dozen of both, no difference rule.
With an AR-10 you can also find uppers of the RSAUM and WSM variety. They are a lot spendier and also require special magazines/followers. Those are the only way to get more power than a .308 out of an AR upper.
If you have a -15 then you could look at maybe the 25 WSSM. I know for a fact it is adequate on elk. Although you would be more limited if you strictly adhere to the "power" rule. But with a .257 Accubond bullet it will kill elk handily out to 500 yds. as well.
My personal opinion is to get what you are comfortable shooting, shoot it as far as you feel the round will take you. And, practice a lot with it at that range. Then hitting the precise mark as best you can won't seem like such a problem. That is the biggest key to killing even big animals is to hit them where it counts.
First, I'm presuming an AR-10 platform not an AR 15 platform.
I just got done posting on another forum how the .308 is plenty adequate for elk out to 400 yds. by the "power" rule. If you plan on shooting that far you will have enough "power" to do so. That said you can look into a 7mm-08. There are good hunting bullets for that all the way up to 180 gr. Just make sure you get the right twist of at least 1-9". A Creedmoor and a .260 are going to be about the same velocity wise, and they are exactly the same bullet wise. That is definitely the 6 of either/half dozen of both, no difference rule.
With an AR-10 you can also find uppers of the RSAUM and WSM variety. They are a lot spendier and also require special magazines/followers. Those are the only way to get more power than a .308 out of an AR upper.
If you have a -15 then you could look at maybe the 25 WSSM. I know for a fact it is adequate on elk. Although you would be more limited if you strictly adhere to the "power" rule. But with a .257 Accubond bullet it will kill elk handily out to 500 yds. as well.
My personal opinion is to get what you are comfortable shooting, shoot it as far as you feel the round will take you. And, practice a lot with it at that range. Then hitting the precise mark as best you can won't seem like such a problem. That is the biggest key to killing even big animals is to hit them where it counts.
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
hornady makes a 129gr sst hunting round in creedmoor,
lots of guys hunt with Amax's, can get those in 140gr.
just pick your pill, place your shot, all will go well
hornady makes a 129gr sst hunting round in creedmoor,
lots of guys hunt with Amax's, can get those in 140gr.
just pick your pill, place your shot, all will go well
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
I know plenty of people that hunt them with a 308, a stout load and a 180 accubond should work. If you want more oomph I would get a bolt gun in 30-06 or 300 win, there are several out there which will cost you less than the DPMS upper will and they will probably weight roughly half what your DPMS does.
I kicked that idea around for awhile but in the end I kept using my 30-06.
I know plenty of people that hunt them with a 308, a stout load and a 180 accubond should work. If you want more oomph I would get a bolt gun in 30-06 or 300 win, there are several out there which will cost you less than the DPMS upper will and they will probably weight roughly half what your DPMS does.
I kicked that idea around for awhile but in the end I kept using my 30-06.
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: idahoshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could you explain to me how the creedemore would be different than the 260 in hunting applications? Not seeing your logic here, since they push the same weight bullets at essentially the same speed.... </div></div>
I was assuming you are using factory ammo for hunting, the 260 will offer more choices, but if you roll your own, then there is no difference at all.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: idahoshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could you explain to me how the creedemore would be different than the 260 in hunting applications? Not seeing your logic here, since they push the same weight bullets at essentially the same speed.... </div></div>
I was assuming you are using factory ammo for hunting, the 260 will offer more choices, but if you roll your own, then there is no difference at all.
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
Personally I have seen a elk eat a round form a 300WM and 7RM inside 300 yards and run 400yrds with exploded lungs. Elk are a lot harder than moose to take down. Moose are big babies compared to Elk. I just got back from Augusta MT hunting deer and Elk. I watched I guy put three rounds from a 300WM at 500yrds into and elk and he still ran off. They searched for 7 hrs and lost him in the thick timber. I even help look for a few hours before I had to go meet back up with our crew.
If you want to shoot elk at 500 yards you need a magnum and 24" plus barrel. Anything less is just irresponsible and will lead to lost and wounded game.
They only way I could ever see shooting a .260, 6.5CM or 7mm-08 would be if I loaded my own ammo shooting and all shots were inside 300 yards. Even then I would prefer a mag.
and a 7mm-08 is not a flatter round that a 6.5CM or 260.
Personally I have seen a elk eat a round form a 300WM and 7RM inside 300 yards and run 400yrds with exploded lungs. Elk are a lot harder than moose to take down. Moose are big babies compared to Elk. I just got back from Augusta MT hunting deer and Elk. I watched I guy put three rounds from a 300WM at 500yrds into and elk and he still ran off. They searched for 7 hrs and lost him in the thick timber. I even help look for a few hours before I had to go meet back up with our crew.
If you want to shoot elk at 500 yards you need a magnum and 24" plus barrel. Anything less is just irresponsible and will lead to lost and wounded game.
They only way I could ever see shooting a .260, 6.5CM or 7mm-08 would be if I loaded my own ammo shooting and all shots were inside 300 yards. Even then I would prefer a mag.
and a 7mm-08 is not a flatter round that a 6.5CM or 260.
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.
and a 7mm-08 is not a flatter round that a 6.5CM or 260. </div></div>
The OP was comparing the different rounds to a 308. A 7mm is much flatter then a 30cal driven to the same velocity, and the 6.5mm's are evn flatter then the 7mm.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.
and a 7mm-08 is not a flatter round that a 6.5CM or 260. </div></div>
The OP was comparing the different rounds to a 308. A 7mm is much flatter then a 30cal driven to the same velocity, and the 6.5mm's are evn flatter then the 7mm.
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personally I have seen a elk eat a round form a 300WM and 7RM inside 300 yards and run 400yrds with exploded lungs. Elk are a lot harder than moose to take down. Moose are big babies compared to Elk. I just got back from Augusta MT hunting deer and Elk. I watched I guy put three rounds from a 300WM at 500yrds into and elk and he still ran off. They searched for 7 hrs and lost him in the thick timber. I even help look for a few hours before I had to go meet back up with our crew.
If you want to shoot elk at 500 yards you need a magnum and 24" plus barrel. Anything less is just irresponsible and will lead to lost and wounded game.
They only way I could ever see shooting a .260, 6.5CM or 7mm-08 would be if I loaded my own ammo shooting and all shots were inside 300 yards. Even then I would prefer a mag.
and a 7mm-08 is not a flatter round that a 6.5CM or 260. </div></div>
I can tell you then that if your friend lost the elk then he didn't hit the mark. They are not bullet proof, they don't have armor and once hit they may go a little ways. But, if you hit them with a "KILL SHOT" they go down within 200 yards. I've seen a number of wounded elk when I lived in Montana. Most, I've come to find out, were shot by someone with a magnum, who was carrying too much gun for himself. I know a guy who lives in California who killed 12 elk with a .243. The more I look back on what he has done. The more I think he's right.
<span style="color: #3333FF">Added:
I killed my only elk, a spike, with a .257 Roberts. He dropped when I hit him. They may be tough but they aren't that tough.</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personally I have seen a elk eat a round form a 300WM and 7RM inside 300 yards and run 400yrds with exploded lungs. Elk are a lot harder than moose to take down. Moose are big babies compared to Elk. I just got back from Augusta MT hunting deer and Elk. I watched I guy put three rounds from a 300WM at 500yrds into and elk and he still ran off. They searched for 7 hrs and lost him in the thick timber. I even help look for a few hours before I had to go meet back up with our crew.
If you want to shoot elk at 500 yards you need a magnum and 24" plus barrel. Anything less is just irresponsible and will lead to lost and wounded game.
They only way I could ever see shooting a .260, 6.5CM or 7mm-08 would be if I loaded my own ammo shooting and all shots were inside 300 yards. Even then I would prefer a mag.
and a 7mm-08 is not a flatter round that a 6.5CM or 260. </div></div>
I can tell you then that if your friend lost the elk then he didn't hit the mark. They are not bullet proof, they don't have armor and once hit they may go a little ways. But, if you hit them with a "KILL SHOT" they go down within 200 yards. I've seen a number of wounded elk when I lived in Montana. Most, I've come to find out, were shot by someone with a magnum, who was carrying too much gun for himself. I know a guy who lives in California who killed 12 elk with a .243. The more I look back on what he has done. The more I think he's right.
<span style="color: #3333FF">Added:
I killed my only elk, a spike, with a .257 Roberts. He dropped when I hit him. They may be tough but they aren't that tough.</span>
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
I built a 7-08 on a DPMS platform,
it shot well, and I was able to reliably get 2650 fps with the 162 AMAX's using RL17 out of a 20" barrel, FWIW...
I have also seen guys drop elk here reliably to 400 yards with a 308 running TSX's....
I built a 7-08 on a DPMS platform,
it shot well, and I was able to reliably get 2650 fps with the 162 AMAX's using RL17 out of a 20" barrel, FWIW...
I have also seen guys drop elk here reliably to 400 yards with a 308 running TSX's....
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They searched for 7 hrs and lost him in the thick timber.</div></div>
Probably zinged his lungs or just plain missed.
I know people use 243's for elk but I wouldn't, 30-06 or 300 win and shoulder.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They searched for 7 hrs and lost him in the thick timber.</div></div>
Probably zinged his lungs or just plain missed.
I know people use 243's for elk but I wouldn't, 30-06 or 300 win and shoulder.
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
Because of mag. limitations in any of the AR type platforms, I don't think you can load a 7-08 to it's full potential with the larger bullets. I looked into doing a 7-08 AR and this was my conclusion. I don't know about the 6.5's oal.
Because of mag. limitations in any of the AR type platforms, I don't think you can load a 7-08 to it's full potential with the larger bullets. I looked into doing a 7-08 AR and this was my conclusion. I don't know about the 6.5's oal.
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
I agree, any elk hit properly will not go far. and you certainly dont need a magnum to shoot them. I shot my first with a 25-06, I'll agree it is on the light side but it works if you place it right. I've shot two of them since last year with my .308/175SMK combo, and it works just fine.
I agree, any elk hit properly will not go far. and you certainly dont need a magnum to shoot them. I shot my first with a 25-06, I'll agree it is on the light side but it works if you place it right. I've shot two of them since last year with my .308/175SMK combo, and it works just fine.
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree, any elk hit properly will not go far. and you certainly dont need a magnum to shoot them. I shot my first with a 25-06, I'll agree it is on the light side but it works if you place it right. I've shot two of them since last year with my .308/175SMK combo, and it works just fine.
</div></div>
Yeppers! I think too many people get stigmatized with the "what do I gots" vs. what is out there. You hit an elk in the right place and kill him. Period. He may move a bit on you but he ain't going nowhere far. If, you hit him solid in a place he can't come back from. Searching 7 hours say's you didn't hit him in the kill zone <span style="text-decoration: underline">period</span>.
This is not the make-believe land like Roy Weatherby dreamed up that if just hit them harder it will all be good. No. You <span style="text-decoration: underline">always, always, always</span>, need to hit them in the kill zone and be done with it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree, any elk hit properly will not go far. and you certainly dont need a magnum to shoot them. I shot my first with a 25-06, I'll agree it is on the light side but it works if you place it right. I've shot two of them since last year with my .308/175SMK combo, and it works just fine.
</div></div>
Yeppers! I think too many people get stigmatized with the "what do I gots" vs. what is out there. You hit an elk in the right place and kill him. Period. He may move a bit on you but he ain't going nowhere far. If, you hit him solid in a place he can't come back from. Searching 7 hours say's you didn't hit him in the kill zone <span style="text-decoration: underline">period</span>.
This is not the make-believe land like Roy Weatherby dreamed up that if just hit them harder it will all be good. No. You <span style="text-decoration: underline">always, always, always</span>, need to hit them in the kill zone and be done with it.
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
they are both good rounds, the differance about the too is like splitting hair to me, a well hit elk with either one won't know the dif, dead is dead.
they are both good rounds, the differance about the too is like splitting hair to me, a well hit elk with either one won't know the dif, dead is dead.
Re: 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmore
I bought a dpms upper from accuracy systems in 300wsm for my elk hunts. It worked great this year. You don't need special followers or mags for the wsm case. I just use a dpms factory 10 round mag. It holds 5 wsm cases. They are spendy though.
I bought a dpms upper from accuracy systems in 300wsm for my elk hunts. It worked great this year. You don't need special followers or mags for the wsm case. I just use a dpms factory 10 round mag. It holds 5 wsm cases. They are spendy though.
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