7mm Mag or 300 Win Mag for Hunting

[verdugo60]

As long as Hornady doesn’t pull a Remington and completely forget that they dumped a ton of money into developing the round…

But yes, the potential for the 7 PRC is big

Hornady tends to do it right(besides their exploding bullets); hence the high popularity of 6.5 Creed over the 260 Rem. Even though they were ballistic equivalents big H marketed it right and won the long range crowd by putting out factory offerings with accurate, match grade, high BC bullets that fit in standard mags. Hunters jumped on later.

The 6.5 and 300 PRC followed the same recipe, I see no reason 7 PRC will be any different as long as good factory rifles get offered in it and the price of ammo and brass comes down.

 

[DangerRanger]

7 prc will be even more popular than 300prc imo

Fits in every bodies long action for a rebarrel, fits in tikkas, as much horsepower as the average person needs without the recoil of 300prc

I expect it to do well.

 

[Long Range 338]

We have the tendency to focus on velocity and bc - which is important, but we neglect to consider SD (sectional density) along with the recoil. 7mm and 6.5mm bullets perform so well because the popular bullets weights have good sd which means they will penetrate well. As long as the shooter does their part the bullet should perform.

Been hunting with a 7mm my entire adult life and have been pleased with the results and manageable recoil. Anything more would obviously work well. Every year after hunting season I hear the opposing stories of the 6.5CM being fantastic for long range big game and also how it is an utter pile of garbage for big game. In the end it really comes down to hunter preparedness with proper expectations (proper bullet design for shot taken and the ability to put the bullet where it belongs). On the other hand I have seen animals nearly blown in half with a bad shot from close distance and the infallable 300 Weatherby....

 

[wpeach1912]

We have the tendency to focus on velocity and bc - which is important, but we neglect to consider SD (sectional density) along with the recoil. 7mm and 6.5mm bullets perform so well because the popular bullets weights have good sd which means they will penetrate well. As long as the shooter does their part the bullet should perform.

Been hunting with a 7mm my entire adult life and have been pleased with the results and manageable recoil. Anything more would obviously work well. Every year after hunting season I hear the opposing stories of the 6.5CM being fantastic for long range big game and also how it is an utter pile of garbage for big game. In the end it really comes down to hunter preparedness with proper expectations (proper bullet design for shot taken and the ability to put the bullet where it belongs). On the other hand I have seen animals nearly blown in half with a bad shot from close distance and the infallable 300 Weatherby....

SD and BC are directly related, so all the long range bullets are generally going to have a high BC

Just out of curiosity, have you tested SD for its relation to penetration? I hear it used a lot as a reason for more penetration but I haven’t noticed significant differences in ballistic gel (I understand not the greatest source) tests on YouTube. It seems like bullet construction and velocity is more important for penetration generally

 

[Holliday]

As long as Hornady doesn’t pull a Remington and completely forget that they dumped a ton of money into developing the round…

But yes, the potential for the 7 PRC is big

7 prc will be even more popular than 300prc imo

Fits in every bodies long action for a rebarrel, fits in tikkas, as much horsepower as the average person needs without the recoil of 300prc

I expect it to do well.

Exactly. One of the main reasons I feel it will do so well, is because of Hornady. The 6.5 PRC is really taking off and I suspect the natural offshoot will be hunting folks going up to the 7 PRC. A lot of hand-loading folks dislike belted magnums so the 7 PRC will have appeal there, as well as handing heavier, longer, better BC bullets for the long range hunters.

Until the 7 PRC appeared I saw a slow but steady increase in the 280 Ackley’s popularity. A couple of years ago Savage sent a “one and done” rifle for various game hunts around the country and chose the 280 Ackley. Many rifle manufacturers have added the caliber to their lineup.

Still there are only two brass makers Nosler and Peterson. It can be like finding unicorn turds and very expensive due to lack of competition. Still I felt the 280AI would continue to gain steam and even spoke to Alpha about making brass for us.

Once the 7 PRC dropped, I personally predicted that the recent momentum behind the 280AI would likely wane. I will most likely go that route on my next barrel. There will always be 7 mm RM & 280AI folks but going forward I expect the 7 PRC to dominate.

We’ll see how accurate my prediction is in 10 years…….

 

[Long Range 338]

SD and BC are directly related, so all the long range bullets are generally going to have a high BC

Just out of curiosity, have you tested SD for its relation to penetration? I hear it used a lot as a reason for more penetration but I haven’t noticed significant differences in ballistic gel (I understand not the greatest source) tests on YouTube. It seems like bullet construction and velocity is more important for penetration generally

BC and SD are related as long skinny bullets in general increase both numbers but SD doesn't need to be sleek and aerodynamic.

Testing as in ballistic gel or scientific results? Absolutely not. More along the lines of recovered bullets or lack of on animals. One can clearly observe the 6.5x55 as a succesful moose killer in Scandinavia with the old round nose 160gr bullets (not great bc but clearly does well with penetration). While manufacturers have to have some kind of testing to prove their bullet designs, ballistic gel doesn't translate that well to the actual fur, bone, and fluid that are live animals. For example, the ELDX is supposed to be an excellent hunting bullet and proven in the lab but many hunters here refuse to use it and actually prefer the ELDM..... It's crazy but true. I don't think Hornady has falsely advertised or misled the public in any aspect but nonetheless the result is what it is.

EVERY bullet has its fans and naysayers, and I've come to the conclusion that you don't try to drive a Berger thru a quartering away animal and bonded/solids do very well when aiming for bone to transfer the energy. In the end one needs to consider the tool for the job and place the bullet appropriately. What is the expectation? Do you want the animal to fall dead in its tracks as if struck by lightning? If so you have better aim to break the spine and need a bullet built for this. Are you taking a heart/lung shot? Then your bullet needs to expand to 2-3x its normal size and completely penetrate to leave a blood trail.

I've been very interested in following the new solids from PVA and the results they are documenting using what I would consider very small cartridges (6BR I believe) with phenomenally quick kills from longer ranges. While I am fascinated by the new whiz bang bullets, I always seem to gravitate towards my personal experience when my time to fill a tag arrives.

 

[The D]

Alright, I’m going to start fucking around in this thread.

Since 7rm brass is available from Peterson and ADG, how big of an advantage would a 7rm improved have over the 7 PRC?

 

[Long Range 338]

Alright, I’m going to start fucking around in this thread.

Since 7rm brass is available from Peterson and ADG, how big of an advantage would a 7rm improved have over the 7 PRC?

 

[The D]

View attachment 8094797

I get it but I’m pretty sure you can deduce what I’m asking. Quality brass is available for 7rm so that’s a wash. Humor me

 

[verdugo60]

I get it but I’m pretty sure you can deduce what I’m asking. Quality brass is available for 7rm so that’s a wash. Humor me

the 7 rem mag is a great, proven hunting and long range cartridge but I think I can summarize why 7 PRC is a natural modern upgrade:

1. No belt. Many say after first firing for reloading to ignore the belt and headspace off the shoulder but it’s a holdover from bygone African double guns in 375 H&H. Like tits on a bill, ya just don’t need it!

2. Long (high bc) bullets that fit in standard-for-caliber chambers with faster twist rates to match. Too many older 7 rems out there with slower twist rates for companies to load up heavy for caliber factory ammo.

3. Related to number 2, the chamber and cartridge was designed to have optimum COAL to fit in mags with long bullets.

Just realized you said 7RM IMPROVED so I misread the question but the points above may still apply. Go ahead and do a reamer though, Ackley-ize ALL the things!

 

[Ronws]

I shoot a 280 Ackley and love that cartridge. That said, if I were building a new Elk gun today, I would look long and hard at the 7 PRC. What I have seen so far, leads me to believe that is going to be a very popular cartridge here in the West.

In my opinion the best reason for a 300 win mag is hunting in Griz country. However, I personally would find the 7 PRC loaded properly with a 10 mm backup to be more than acceptable.

I know of a guy who has hunted black bear with a .300 WSM.

 

[The D]

Go ahead and do a reamer though, Ackley-ize ALL the things!

I have zero concrete plans right now. I’m just talking and asking annoying questions until my kids get a bit older(6,4,1 all boys) and I have some more hobby $$. Then I’ll go full retard

 

[Holliday]

I know of a guy who has hunted black bear with a .300 WSM.

I know of a guy who killed a Griz with a 9 mm handgun.

The Story of the Alaska Man Who Killed a Charging Brown Bear with a 9mm Pistol

It's a miracle this Alaskan fishing guide lived to tell the tale.

www.wideopenspaces.com

I bet if you look hard enough you could find someone who killed a black bear with a 22 LR.

Nether anecdote changes my desire to carry something much more substantial in Griz country.

 

[Holliday]

I get it but I’m pretty sure you can deduce what I’m asking. Quality brass is available for 7rm so that’s a wash. Humor me

From what I have “gleened” about the 7 PRC is that it achieves similar ballistics with less recoil and less powder due to the modern design.

Also again a lot of people, myself included, prefer non-belted cartridges when given a choice.

 

[Long Range 338]

I get it but I’m pretty sure you can deduce what I’m asking. Quality brass is available for 7rm so that’s a wash. Humor me

OK, now that I made fun of you I'll play along...

To get the 7RM to perform you'll have to optimize the entire system:
-Pick your bullet and design the chamber around it
-COAL will need to fit in existing rifle dimensions
-COAL will need to fit magazine restrictions
-blow out the shoulder for more powder capacity
-Barrel with 1:8 twist for using the higher BC bullets

After all the time and $$$ you'll see that you could have alternately purchase a factory 7PRC rifle and factory ammo to get almost identical performance. But the experience was fun and educational. To outperform the 7PRC you'll have to do something like a 7-300WM or 7-300PRC.

 

[The D]

OK, now that I made fun of you I'll play along...

To get the 7RM to perform you'll have to optimize the entire system:
-Pick your bullet and design the chamber around it
-COAL will need to fit in existing rifle dimensions
-COAL will need to fit magazine restrictions
-blow out the shoulder for more powder capacity
-Barrel with 1:8 twist for using the higher BC bullets

After all the time and $$$ you'll see that you could have alternately purchase a factory 7PRC rifle and factory ammo to get almost identical performance. But the experience was fun and educational. To outperform the 7PRC you'll have to do something like a 7-300WM or 7-300PRC.

Yes, that’s what I’m asking about. Noticeable performance gains over the 7PRC with not a ton of additional effort. Maybe just a fireforming step with a mild 7rm hand load like the original Ackley rounds could do. How much of a performance gain do you think this could provide?

@Saluki2003 , if you want me to stop shitting up your thread just let me know

 

[Ronws]

I know of a guy who killed a Griz with a 9 mm handgun.

The Story of the Alaska Man Who Killed a Charging Brown Bear with a 9mm Pistol

It's a miracle this Alaskan fishing guide lived to tell the tale.

www.wideopenspaces.com

I bet if you look hard enough you could find someone who killed a black bear with a 22 LR.

Nether anecdote changes my desire to carry something much more substantial in Griz country.

You can relax, now. I was not slighting you. Just saying that there is more than one way to get a bear, either intentionally or defensively.

 

[Ronws]

After all the time and $$$ you'll see that you could have alternately purchase a factory 7PRC rifle and factory ammo to get almost identical performance. But the experience was fun and educational. To outperform the 7PRC you'll have to do something like a 7-300WM or 7-300PRC.

That was my thinking, too. I mean, I love .308 and have a few rifles in that caliber and they are comfy, shooting lower grains at 2700, maybe 2800 max fps. Carrying 1k energy to just short of 500 yards.

I wanted something that would reach farther, especially as I intend to hunt mule deer and elk before I shirk off this mortal coil. And something with great energy and a flatter trajectory sounds like the ticket. I thought about .300 WM. And even the 7 RM. I have seen at least two people harvest an elk with a 7 RM. But I saw the specs and performance of the 7 PRC and I am glad I waited. Sure, it has a bit more of a magnum recoil than my .308 rifles but I really don't have to change the ammo from factory. I have thought of reloading but not to change the recipe. Simply to be able to have ammo available, even if the cost is the same as store-bought. So, yeah, technically a smaller diameter round but it brings some fight to the ring.

 

[Holliday]

You can relax, now. I was not slighting you. Just saying that there is more than one way to get a bear, either intentionally or defensively.

Relax. I did not feel the slightest bit slighted. Not even slightly……

 

[Ronws]

Relax. I did not feel the slightest bit slighted. Not even slightly……

Well, damn it, I must be doing something wrong. Plenty is the time where I tick people off because I drew a breath. I must be slipping in my old age.

 

[Long Range 338]

That was my thinking, too. I mean, I love .308 and have a few rifles in that caliber and they are comfy, shooting lower grains at 2700, maybe 2800 max fps. Carrying 1k energy to just short of 500 yards.

I wanted something that would reach farther, especially as I intend to hunt mule deer and elk before I shirk off this mortal coil. And something with great energy and a flatter trajectory sounds like the ticket. I thought about .300 WM. And even the 7 RM. I have seen at least two people harvest an elk with a 7 RM. But I saw the specs and performance of the 7 PRC and I am glad I waited. Sure, it has a bit more of a magnum recoil than my .308 rifles but I really don't have to change the ammo from factory. I have thought of reloading but not to change the recipe. Simply to be able to have ammo available, even if the cost is the same as store-bought. So, yeah, technically a smaller diameter round but it brings some fight to the ring.

I love my 7RM and the way it performs BUT I've always wished I could get the bullet seated closer to the lands for better accuracy but am always limited by COAL in the magazine. Winchester Model 70 rifle and I love it (have the same gun in 300WM and the issue is actually more pronounced) but it's like the rifle makers and ammo makers weren't working together, just throwing ideas around and everyone was stuck with the mediocre outcome.

As newer and better long range bullets are made the PRC cartridges shine.

 

[Long Range 338]

Yes, that’s what I’m asking about. Noticeable performance gains over the 7PRC with not a ton of additional effort. Maybe just a fireforming step with a mild 7rm hand load like the original Ackley rounds could do. How much of a performance gain do you think this could provide?

@Saluki2003 , if you want me to stop shitting up your thread just let me know

When the 375 Ruger came out I thought it would be the optimum case for getting rid of the belted cases and maximizing the powder column. The 300 PRC did an amazing job of maximizing the powder capacity and still allowing the COAL to fit in normal action dimensions. The belt on the 7RM eats up some of the powder capacity that can be taken advantage of in the 300 PRC and Nosler cartridges, but the Nosler chamberings require the bullets to be seated too deeply when going with the high BC bullet options.

Someone with more experience than myself would have to run the numbers on an Ackley Improved 7RM. Even with 10% more powder capacity (which I don't believe you could gain) you would only get 2-3% more velocity. There are only 2 ways I know to get more performance from an existing cartridge which are more powder and longer barrels. And the 7PRC is already getting an additional 150 fps out of the gate vs the 7RM.

 

[Aftermath]

I have zero concrete plans right now. I’m just talking and asking annoying questions until my kids get a bit older(6,4,1 all boys) and I have some more hobby $$. Then I’ll go full retard

So….in about 25 years…

 

[Fujihokeymoto]

My ole man gave me his remi 7mm I hunt with that every year and love it,

 

[The D]

So….in about 25 years…

Lol, I hope not. The oldest has already asked about going shooting some of the smaller guns so I need to get my shit together

My ole man gave me his remi 7mm I hunt with that every year and love it,

My dad got a 7rm 700 a few years ago when my grandfather passed away. I’ve got some plans for that thing too

 

[30338]

We keep killing things with 6.5x47, 6.5 creedmoor and 30/06. I hate brakes on hunting rifles as I never used to put in plugs. Hearing aids are great at earlier than age 60 lol.

I'd buy a 6.5 creedmoor, 270, 30/06 and learn to shoot it well. First choice Tikka T3, second choice for more money Seekins Havak. Scope Nightforce 2.5-10 or NX8 2.5-20.

Personally for me hunting deer, antelope, bear and elk here in CO out to 600 yards, I'll keep using my 6.5x47 these days. But Creedmoor makes way more factory ammo sense.

 

[Holliday]

Well, damn it, I must be doing something wrong. Plenty is the time where I tick people off because I drew a breath. I must be slipping in my old age.

I grew up on coastal Maine. Banter is how we breathe….

 

[Holliday]

We keep killing things with 6.5x47, 6.5 creedmoor and 30/06. I hate brakes on hunting rifles as I never used to put in plugs. Hearing aids are great at earlier than age 60 lol.

Nothing wrong with your choices, if they suit you. Hopefully you best understand your limits with your caliber of choice.

That said, are you saying you hunt with a 6.5 cm no ear pro?

I have been a big proponent of ear pro when hunting. With today’s electronic options it is a no brainer for me. In fact when I started hunting with a silencer I had to find a new way to keep my hat on in wind and to keep my ears warm.

 

[30338]

I shoot and hunt suppressed now. I know my limits when shooting centerfire and have great success at long range with them. Use the 6.5x47 for under 600 yard stuff, 6.5-284 if I want 800 to be an option. Always berger bullets though may switch depending on supply to 147 eld.

 

[Holliday]

I shoot and hunt suppressed now. I know my limits when shooting centerfire and have great success at long range with them. Use the 6.5x47 for under 600 yard stuff, 6.5-284 if I want 800 to be an option. Always berger bullets though may switch depending on supply to 147 eld.

Been using Berger in my 280 Ackley. They fly true and kill. I am getting a bit tired of the grenade effect though. Trying some eld-x now.

 

[Ronws]

I love my 7RM and the way it performs BUT I've always wished I could get the bullet seated closer to the lands for better accuracy but am always limited by COAL in the magazine. Winchester Model 70 rifle and I love it (have the same gun in 300WM and the issue is actually more pronounced) but it's like the rifle makers and ammo makers weren't working together, just throwing ideas around and everyone was stuck with the mediocre outcome.

As newer and better long range bullets are made the PRC cartridges shine.

I think the problem is that the ammo maker doesn't know exactly what rifle you are putting it in. So, you may have a bit more free bore than you want. AFAIK, which is not much, the only remedy might be handloading after you run the gauge in there to see exactly how long you need it. Right now, Precision Hunter 175 gr is 3.4 inches long. So, of course it will hold in any .300 WM magazine. But a specific rifle might allow a slightly longer one to allow closer tolerances.

 

[Long Range 338]

I think the problem is that the ammo maker doesn't know exactly what rifle you are putting it in. So, you may have a bit more free bore than you want. AFAIK, which is not much, the only remedy might be handloading after you run the gauge in there to see exactly how long you need it. Right now, Precision Hunter 175 gr is 3.4 inches long. So, of course it will hold in any .300 WM magazine. But a specific rifle might allow a slightly longer one to allow closer tolerances.

In the case of my rifles the problem is the riflemaker and SAAMI I suppose. The chamber is cut long but the magazine is short. Only way to get close to the lands is with a round nose bullet - which I'm not about to use, or single feed - which I won't do in a hunting rifle. It is what it is. Only makes the 7PRC shine though as the chamber spec and loads are built for high bc bullets.

I suppose the issue would be resolved as well with a custom barrel job but it still shoots well and its always a fight to decide where to put the $$$

 

[Mike Islander]

I would use the .308. It's more than capable.

 

[Scottifly]

I have both. Started elk hunting with a 30-06 and 180 grain Accubonds but wasn't happy with the accuracy I got out of my rifle. Went to 7 mag with 175 grain pills and wasn't impressed with the ballistic gain over the 06. Then I went to the 300 WM and saw a lot better...well, everything...shooting 180 grain Accubonds.

All of that being said, I hunt elk at 9,000 - 10,000 feet. When you plug in the data for the 30-06 shooting 165 grain Accubonds (which it loves), it's still got plenty of velocity and energy for elk out to 800 yards. That's about 200 yards farther than I'd shoot an animal under perfect conditions.

Less recoil, lighter weight, super accurate, and just a pleasure to shoot. The 30-06, in my opinion, is still one of the best all-around rounds ever invented.

When you're talking about ethical hunting ranges out 500 yards or just a tad over, the old 06 is still just as effective as any of the "new stuff" out there. I always considered it my grandfather's generation caliber and thought the new stuff had to be better. I was wrong.

There may be better stuff for hitting targets at very long ranges. But, nothing is going to make animals any more dead at typical hunting ranges. Especially if you reload. I'm getting just over 3,000 fps from my 06 with 165 grain Accubonds.

Oh....yes, Accubonds. They'll let you shoot farther if the opportunity presents itself, but they'll hold together and perform great at closer ranges. No matter what anyone says, the "long range" bullets just aren't good on elk unless you're 100% sure you're going to be shooting over 300 yards.

We practice out to 1,000 yards all year every year. So far, the farthest shot any of us has taken an elk is 200 yards. The longest shot I've taken in the mountains was on a bear at 505 yards. That was with the 30-06 and 165 grain Accubonds on a bear, which ran 20 yards before rolling down the side of the mountain.

Sorry I got so long-winded. To answer your question...neither. Get a light to mid-weight 30-06.

 

[BurtG]

getting just over 3,000 fps from my 06 with 165 grain Accubonds

Nice.
Big reason there why it works for you I think. Factory ammo would be what 300 fps slower ?

 

[Scottifly]

Nice.
Big reason there why it works for you I think. Factory ammo would be what 300 fps slower ?

Yeah, you're right. You can really "tweak" things when you reload. That being said, the 06 I have is sorta an anomaly. I once read an article by one of the big gun writers back in the day who was talking about a particular 06 he owned, that was like this one. Ballistically, it made no sense. He was consistently getting over 100 fps faster speeds from it using factory ammo than what was stated on the box. In some cases, he'd even so increased speeds approaching 200 fps. After doing some research, he said that this was one of those things that had been documented before and no one, including the military, really had an explanation. It just shouldn't happen, but it did.

My guess (and his) was that there was some sort of inconsistency in the barrel that caused it to produce more pressure or something. A kind of manufacturing defect that just had a positive effect instead of an negative one. Fortunately for me, it's also a very accurate rifle as long as I keep the bullets in the 150 to 165 grain range. It absolutely hates 180s.

Even with the load I'm using, Hodgdon data says it should be over 100 fps slower than it is. But, I've sent it through the magneto, and trued it with a ballistic calculator out to 1000 yards and it's right.

You're right on another front as well. If it weren't for the speeds I'm getting, it probably wouldn't compare to the 300WM. Especially if I were only shooting factory loads, which I'm sure most guys do.