Range Report 7mm Rem Mag 180gr VLD vs 180gr Hybrid Target

[LoanHarvey]

Can anyone give me good advise on the difference in these 2 bullets when it comes to putting down an Elk please. I have been told by that the bases are thicker on the Hybrids, and that the nose is the same. Also been told not to use the Hybrid's on game, however that is what Gunwerks is using. Does anyone have any information on this? Thank you

 

[Capt Academy]

This should be interesting.

 

[jonesy]

Blah blah blah, shot placement.

 

[madppcs]

Well, I probably wont be much help in your question. Im experimenting with the 180s as well. But it seems my 7mag does not like the berger design. So far, the 2 Berger bullets Ive shot were the 168VLD and 180 Hybrid. My rifle doesnt seem to like either. The 168VLD will group 5" at 100yds and the 180s are slightly better with about 3" at 100yds. This is using IMR 7828SSC. I cant remember the powder weight, but my buddy has it written down. I could find it if you like. Ive seen the 180VLD but honestly they both look the same. The 168SMKs however are a different story. Itll group 3/8th at 100. Im offshore right now and will post a pic of each when I get home. Until then, the only thing I can offer is a pic of the 180Hybrid that is on my phone.

 

[KYpatriot]

For what it us worth, recovered this 7mm 180 hybrid from soft ground from a miss at 890 yards. Impact velocity was 1954, energy 1562. It weighs 135gr now.







I am a fan of nosler accubonds, but if you are running hybrids at high velocity the thick jacket may be a help more than a hindrance. The smks it have recovered didn't mushroom pretty like this. This picture looks pretty textbook to me.

 

[Skyking]

They work great for hunting. Here is a ton of info from Jeff. Killing starts on page 12. They are the 215, but same applies to the 7mm.
Comparing the Berger 210 VLD to the 215 Hybrid - Page 12 - Long Range Hunting Online Magazine

 

[Rooster721]

KY...

What is your muzzle velocity? And how hard have you (or anyone reading this) pushed those hybrids, & in what barrel-twist??

I've got an 8 twist 5r on my firebird, worked up to 3175 and started seeing pressure... exceptional accuracy at 3075 but had 2 of the last 15 during load-finalizing dust on me. Have seen ordinary vld's dust/disintegrate due to the velocity and jackets tearing, but didn't expect the hybrids and their thicker jackets to do it. Dissapointed me, accuracy was definitely there.

 

[LoanHarvey]

Thank you Rooster! Will be working up a load soon. Appreciate the info!

 

[KYpatriot]

KY...

What is your muzzle velocity? And how hard have you (or anyone reading this) pushed those hybrids, & in what barrel-twist??

I've got an 8 twist 5r on my firebird, worked up to 3175 and started seeing pressure... exceptional accuracy at 3075 but had 2 of the last 15 during load-finalizing dust on me. Have seen ordinary vld's dust/disintegrate due to the velocity and jackets tearing, but didn't expect the hybrids and their thicker jackets to do it. Dissapointed me, accuracy was definitely there.

Hmmm, these were about 3040, out of an 26in 8.5 twist bartlein. I wouldnt expect that at 3075, and haven't heard others having that problem, but with the 8 twist i guess you are putting some serious spin on them. Wonder if there is something unique about your barrel.

 

[Rooster721]

Not sure it's anything unique.. Krieger 1:8 Obermeyer 5R, also 26"

I ran the 190 Matrix vld's to about the same speeds as these Berger 180's (but) had far more of the 190's dust* Was almost ridiculous, something like 2 in 6 weren't making the targets... puff's of smoke mid air as if shooting matchboxes full of chalk, lol I assume it's the 8" twist myself that's causing the problem. Just am curious whether others have had success with the Hybrids (or Hunter vld's) in slower twist barrels (and to what speeds, reliably) ???

I'm a hunter myself, I like the Berger's & Matrix designs because of their accuracy, but obviously (while hunting) little puffs of smoke and disintegrating bullets are NOT what you want. Wondering where to go with twist-rate once the barrel pukes* So (like the original poster) I'm curious what the rest of you's get for speeds and are seeing in your own rifles..?

 

[BryanLitz]

The VLD's are the hunting line, made on the thinner jacket intended for hunting expansion.

Target bullets such as the 180 Hybrid are made on thicker jackets and not verified for hunting.

Having said that, straight up, Personally I would load the 180 Hybrids for hunting because the hybrid design is less sensitive to seating depth in terms of precision (grouping).


And 180 grains of 7mm in the vitals is lethal, regardless of jacket thickness.

My $0.02.

-Bryan

 

[Capt Academy]

KY...

What is your muzzle velocity? And how hard have you (or anyone reading this) pushed those hybrids, & in what barrel-twist??

I've got an 8 twist 5r on my firebird, worked up to 3175 and started seeing pressure... exceptional accuracy at 3075 but had 2 of the last 15 during load-finalizing dust on me. Have seen ordinary vld's dust/disintegrate due to the velocity and jackets tearing, but didn't expect the hybrids and their thicker jackets to do it. Dissapointed me, accuracy was definitely there.

Rooster, what powder are you using? I have my 180 VLD's @ 3058 using Retumbo and was going to try the Hyb's. Accuracy is great for the VLD's.

 

[Gray]

Well, I probably wont be much help in your question. Im experimenting with the 180s as well. But it seems my 7mag does not like the berger design. So far, the 2 Berger bullets Ive shot were the 168VLD and 180 Hybrid. My rifle doesnt seem to like either. The 168VLD will group 5" at 100yds and the 180s are slightly better with about 3" at 100yds. This is using IMR 7828SSC. I cant remember the powder weight, but my buddy has it written down. I could find it if you like. Ive seen the 180VLD but honestly they both look the same. The 168SMKs however are a different story. Itll group 3/8th at 100. Im offshore right now and will post a pic of each when I get home. Until then, the only thing I can offer is a pic of the 180Hybrid that is on my phone.

Try 69 gr. Retumbo with the 168 VLD seated .010-.020 off the lands in Winchester brass

 

[Rooster721]

Powder is Retumbo, same as yourself. And yah, accuracy with the Hybrids is excellent.. at 200y I had them grouping at & under an inch with speeds of 3075... Problem is the odd one blows mid air, as I mentioned.

I've read of guys such as Kirby Allen run into this problem in his Allen mags but with twists even faster than an 8 twist and barrels with roughened barrels and higher round counts (using ordinary vld's) The claim afterward was the Target & Hybrids with thicker jackets were holding up... so why mine are dusting is beyond me. My twist is a touch faster than needed no doubt, but 1:8 really isn't that terribly aggressive, nor is the 3075 compared to what those Allen mags claim to run (for example)

So again, big question is: What barrel will handle these bullets reliably, shot for shot, above 3000?? As of still, 2 barrels into this, I haven't got it figured. 1:9 originally was tearing the 168 Hunting Vld's, went to a 5R obermeyer 1:8 thinking the gentler 5R design would help and not engrave/remove as much jacket as it is turning in the barrel (and went with the 1:8 obviously to shoot 180 & 190's) But still no go. Have come to the same problem now again.

 

[KYpatriot]

Hmm. Let us know if you figure this out Rooster, I havent heard of anybody having these problems less than 3100fps like you have. I was going to ask if you are sure it was really a 1-8, maybe it is more like 1 in 7?? but id be surprised if krieger were off much.

Maybe if Berger will get on the ball and get those 195s out you can switch to those and you wont have to worry about it. I have an new 8.5twist barrel waiting for them, hopefully that will be enough at the 2900 or 2925 id expect to push them at.

Hint Hint Berger lol.....

 

[Rooster721]

Hmm. Let us know if you figure this out Rooster, I havent heard of anybody having these problems less than 3100fps like you have. I was going to ask if you are sure it was really a 1-8, maybe it is more like 1 in 7?? but id be surprised if krieger were off much.

Maybe if Berger will get on the ball and get those 195s out you can switch to those and you wont have to worry about it. I have an new 8.5twist barrel waiting for them, hopefully that will be enough at the 2900 or 2925 id expect to push them at.

Hint Hint Berger lol.....

About the only thing that could be the curveball in my results is my chrony itself, the only damn thing I can figure is maybe it's "off" and giving lower than real readings... I've probably put 1000+ rounds over it since I got it a couple yrs back, been noticing alot more false reads the last two outings. During the testing of the 180's I had a handful hovering in that 3300 mark, but "more" in the 3050-3115 range (so obviously disregarded the higher readings for mis-reads) ...maybe the chrony has had-it and the lower reads are the mis-reads ??? Hell if I know. Guess I'll have to check it against a buddies chrony and see for sure, but I suppose it's possible to have crapped out.

...that 3300 velocity would be more understandable for torn jackets and excess speed* Otherwise, I'm at a loss for understanding.


And for the record, I too am anxiously awaiting the 195's! I hope they come available sooner than later...