7mm rem mag Sporadic OCD UPDATE

[7mmVertigo]

**********ORIGINAL POST**************
"7mm rm load way off please help "

Sorry I posted this in wrong forum first I believe this is where it should be:

Hey hide I need some serious counseling here. Here is what's going on. I have a rem sendero 2 action and factory barrel mounted on top of a jae700 chassis and it sees through a swfa 5-25x50 HD. I took out for load development sat. Took with me an ocw test. Sighted rifle in with factory hunting ammo yes I know oops. Then proceeded with the worst ocw test ever. Every shot was off paper very scattered And there was no discernible grouping. So I figured okay dumb ass let sight it in with the right ammo. The ammo I'm shooting/loading for this gun is the berger 168 with RETUMBO .010 off lands. Okay so I took it today with a new ocw test in hand and sighting in rounds with 69 grains. Got it on paper and proceeded. This time 85% hit paper but again no good grouping and not discernible! I really need help with this one! Is anyone experiencing these problems with the 7mm. Here is some more pertinent facts.

I'm seeing pressure signs at load 3 with 69gr and still have 70.6 and 71.3 to go.
I have checked ALL likely suspects. Everything is tight and torqued with lock tight scope is level with rifle.
Keep in mind this is a stock remington 700 sendero II in the chassis until I can get either a re barrel or the stiller/shilled combo I want.

My loads are as follows:
Sighters: 64.1, 65.4, 66.7
Load 1: 67.5
Load 2: 68.2
Load 3: 69.0
Load 4: 69.8
Load 5: 70.6
Load 6: 71.3

Dan if your out there please toss me a bone here

I know it's NOT the shooter as after this second fail I got behind my buddies 300 and put 3 rounds sub moa. His gun is identical in every way except caliber and optic.

PLEASE CAN ANYONE HELP ME?
Am I seeing too much pressure? Or what?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

**********UPDATE******************************

Okay hide here is the update after the epic fail 2 weeks ago. So I ran these tests and received these results:

Test 1. Took off scope and box tested it on a 22-250 that is my yote cracker and tac driver: PASS "flying colors" not the scope!

Test 2. Place by buddies identical rifle (300 winmag different optic) in my chassis (jae700): PASS "Extremely Flying Colors" the stock is badass

Test 3. put problem child rifle back together resighted and shot box of match ammo: Undetermined this is where input is needed.....

So I shot 25 rounds of premium match ammo and got interesting results. (wish I had pics to post sry) once sighted in I was getting I was putting them pretty much on top of each other at 50 yards just to see. but here is the wtf... after moving it out to 100 yards I was 3 mil right and 2 mil high 3 shot group. I was confused since at 50 yards I was in the bull's-eye on top of one another.. I was like okay wtf!? my buddy milled milled for me and we made adjustments. I just don't understand how factory loads can yield that kind of change. 5 shots decent group no flyers. Good right? wrong! So we loaded these loads and got these results:

Load 1: Retumbo, 68.2 gr, 160gr Berger hunting VLD at lands, first shot: off paper. WTF!? second shot far right , 3 shot after adjustment 2mils high 1.5 mils right. 4th shot same 5th shot same.

Load 2: Retumbo, 68 gr, 160gr Berger hunting VLD .010 jump, first shot: 2mils high 2.5 mils right, shots 2 and 3 with 1-1&1/2 MOA

Load 3: Retumbo, 68 gr, 160gr Berger hunting VLD at lands, first shot: same as 4th and fifth shot of LOAD 1. next 2 shots 3/4 to 1 MOA group.

Load 4: Retumbo, 68gr, 160gr Berger hunting VLD Jammed .010 into lands, all shots sporadic.

Load 5: (shits and giggles) H1000, 68gr, at lands, again sporadic.
again I apologize for no pictures. dumb ass mistake

will be going out again with a "mini" OCW test with ranges from 67.8-68.4 gr retumbo at the lands. Any input or advise would be appreciated.
Well at least in know its not the scope or the chassis and im pretty sure at this point since the gun is "somewhat?" repeating it shouldn't be the gun right? so it must be the load.

One more question, can there really be that big of a difference between factory match (federal brand) and hand loads to push my POI that far off with LOAD 1?

Looking forward to your insight.

Safe shooting
vertigo

 

[Gilly]

I would first ask how you came about your charge weight? Next if you have not done it run either a ladder test with .3 gr intervals at long range 5-600 yards if possible to find a node and work off of that or do ocw if you prefer. Both may be challenging if accuracy at other charges is so sporadic. I have heard bergers can be very finicky in some rifles so you may want to look at their instructions for finding setting depth. Not all rifle/bullet combos need to chase rifling, I want to say .060 jump or something like that based on berger instructions. If you have previously found your powder weight to be an accuracy node than you may need to load up 3-5 round groups starting at rifling and back off .010 each group until you see a change in group size. Either way do this step once accuracy node is found. Maybe try different powder too, my 257 wby was scattering all over in load development with 7828 but same charges of RL-25 was stacking in just fine and they are right next to one another on burn rate charts, sometimes you just can't fight what the rifle is telling you.

 

[7mmVertigo]

Hey gilli thanks for the insight I came up with my load from an ocw test from a previous post the target picture dint copy over to this post so its hard to explain it withou visualization. Ill get started on seating depths and update. I'm saving up for a micrometer seating die so I can be über precise.

 

[Gilly]

Here is the article I was referencing from berger on seating deapths. I have not been able to find any bergers for my 257 but have been putting together load info for when I do and plan to use this to get my seating deapths. For measuring oal I have found with this type of bullet whether its berger or DTacs in my 243 the tips are inconsistent so base to ogive is the best way to measure when trying to adjust in .005 to .010 increments because measuring base to tip will dive you nuts unless you are trimming meplats.

Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

Background

VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifles. It can be difficult to get the VLD to group well (poor accuracy).

For years we encouraged shooters to use a base of cartridge to end of bearing surface OAL (I will use the term COAL to represent this dimension) which allows the VLD to touch the rifling or to be jammed in the rifling. This provided excellent results for many shooters but there were others who did not achieve top performance with the VLD jammed in their rifling. These shooters were left with the belief that the VLD bullets just won’t shoot in their rifle.

Other groups of shooters were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling. Some of these shooters knew that at some point during a target competition they will be asked to remove a live round. With the bullet jammed in the rifling there was a good chance the bullet will stick in the barrel which could result in an action full of powder. This is hard on a shooter during a match.

Yet another group of shooters who were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling are those who feed through magazines or have long throats. Magazine length rounds loaded with VLDs could not touch the lands in most rifles (this is the specific reason that for years we said VLD bullets do not work well in a magazine). When a rifle could be single fed but was chambered with a long throat a loaded round that was as long as possible still would not touch the rifling.

Until recently, shooters who suffered from these realities were believed to be unable to achieve success with VLD bullets. Admittedly, we would receive the occasional report that a rifle shot very well when jumping the VLD bullets but we discounted these reports as anomalies. It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.

After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying “this is the best my rifle has ever shot.”

We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. We were able to relay these characteristics to several shooters who were struggling with VLD bullets. Each shooter reported success after applying our recommendation.


Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

Solution

The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.

Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.

Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).

Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).

Regards,
Eric Stecker
Master Bulletsmith