7WSM or 7SAUM info needed

[Barney88PDC]

I am looking to build a hunting rifle for Elk / Mule deer hunting in the Rockies. My desired goal is an 800 yard capable weapon that weighs approx 10# or less. A 180gr Berger VLD at 2850 should fit the bill.

My knowledge is more in tactical rifle setups and I currently own two custom builds. A .308Win and I just got a .260Rem. I compete in Tac matches and a few F class matches here and there. So I am not new to shooting but I am not up to speed on decked out hunting rigs.

So with that preface done here is what I am thinking.

Action: 591 with WSM bolt face.
Trigger: Jewell (same as my tac guns)
Stock: I really like a vertical grip and the McMillan Game Scout is very appealing. I run a A5 on my .308

Now for the 2 that I need help with.
Barrel: I will get either a Kreiger or Bartlein but what twist should I go with for the 160 or 180 gr bullets and what is a typical contour? I am thinking a finish length of 24".

Bottom Metal: I am not sure if I want a mag or just a blind floor plate. I think I could save a few dollars if I went with a blind floor plate? If I am correct on this and how easy is it to acquire the parts? I guess it would be easy as getting on Brownell's amd making an order? What are some good bottom blank bottom metal? I think Badger makes one? I assmue I would need the floor plate, spring, follower, and internal box.

DBM: I did see that Seekins makes a DBM for WSM calibers and it seems that the 3.1" OAL is generous allowing for the VLD to be jammed into the lands. Would a standard AICS .308 mag work with WSM calibers and if so would they need need to be tuned. If so then other bottom metal such as Surgeon or Badger would be an option.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

 

[SigsauerP229]

Re: 7WSM info needed

I have been researching this myself as I am looking to do a tactical/hunting rifle in this cal. 8 or 8.5 seems to be the preffered twist for the 180 VLD. I'm going with a heavy varmint but I don't know if you want to go lighter. 24" should get you the speed you want fairly easy.

If you go with a standard floor plate, Brownells sells Remington original floor plates which will be less then Badger.

You can either mod the mags to run the WSM in the Badger or other DBM or you can notch the feed ramp.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: 7WSM info needed

If your only looking for 2850 with a 160-180 You may consider the 7SAUM or a regular old 7mag, they will probably last longer if thats a concern. I am getting one made too, 8 twist and 25-26" is what I'm going with.

 

[Barney88PDC]

Re: 7WSM info needed

I was just playing with the numbers in my ballistic program and threw in 2850 with the 180 Berger. 5.3 Mil drop and approx 1350 lb-ft at 800 yards. Now if I can get it going 3000 fps then great but I wanted to err on the slow side. I am not really concerned about barrel life as this is a hunting rig. I should get 1500 rounds on the barrel and hell even if I only get 1000 even with load development that is alot of rounds at live targets.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: 7WSM info needed

You should do fine then with what you are planning. The 7 is awesome!

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: 7WSM info needed

I'd skip the 7WSM and look at the 7-300WSM or 7SAUM, they have better brass and either will net you 2,920 to 2,950 fps with the 180 Berger.

LA is the only way to fly and a DBM with 338LM magazines is what I'd run (due to the diameter of the case, not length) If Surgeon is your choice look 1086.

 

[turbo54]

Re: 7WSM info needed

9 twist will work
Any reason you don't just use a 7 Rem mag?
Blind mag with hinged floorplate is better for offhand shooting
Any 7mm mag, even a 284 will get you 2850 with a 180. The magnums will likely hit 3000.

 

[Trevor300wsm]

Re: 7WSM info needed

I'll give my opinion.

I have a 7wsm on a 591 action. I'm running a Rem Varm contour 1:9 twist fluted at 24". I'm shooting a 168VLD at 3,089fps with RL22. Yeah, I could move up to a 180 hybrid, but I don't see the need. The rifle shoots excellent and I have great speed.

The 7wsm is a awesome caliber, but as with any caliber there will be people that love it and those that tell you "xyz" is much better. I could have any 7mm variant I want and I chose the 7wsm.

You said you wanted a "Hunting" rifle, so let's build a true hunting rifle, NOT a multipurpose hunting/tac rig. The stock is purely your choice. Whatever you think will fit you and isn't too bulky. One thing to keep in mind is the differnce in feel between actual weight and just bulky weight. What I mean is, a heavy streamlined rifle will still carry/pack better than a lighter, but bulky rifle. Its the ability to handle it comfortabley.....bulk is bad.

The barrel is a key feature on hunting rifle weight. I'd suggest a #5 Krieger or a light palma Krieger. I think the #5 is excellent. I just finished a "hunting" rifle with a #5 and it's perfect. It's heavy enough to be able to handle 3-5 shots without getting too terribly hot, but it's not so damn heavy either. Most of the time hunting, 1 maybe 2 shots max is all your gonna take. Loss of accuracy from heat should be a non-issue.

Go with a hinged floor plate.......just do it. It's a hunting rig, you don't NEED a DBM. A good smith can make just about any caliber feed reliably from BDL internal mags. Yeah it's a pain at times loading from the top, but it beats a mag hanging down all the time, not to mention not gouging you in the side/back. Yeah you can do flush cups on the left side to avoid carry issues, but again, not needed.

It's sometimes hard to actually build what you need to really serve the purpose well versus what is the trend currently. Yes I love my M5 metal and AI mags......at the range and tac shoots. I absolutey hate them while hunting though. I don't want shit hanging down below my hunting rifle.

Rings/bases.....go all alloy, both rings and bases. They hold up just as good and way less weight. Your not gonna be bouncing this rifle off barricades or run and gun type situations. You don't need a solid steel base/rings.

These are just my opinions and observations from having a few rifles built. Do what you feel is best for you, but please think before you decide to slap a Rem varmint contour barrel on a dedicated hunting/high country big game rifle. It's just too damn heavy.

 

[RHutch]

Re: 7WSM info needed

My 7WSM hunting rifle sounds about like what you may be contemplating:
FN SPR action & bottom metal (lots of weight here)
Jewel trigger
Broughton #4, 1:9 at 24"
McM sako hunter stock standard fill
Near mfg base
Seekins low rings
Premier LT

Weighs 9ibs 8oz as it sits w/o bipod.
I shoot the 168 berger at 3000fps.

 

[Trevor300wsm]

Re: 7WSM info needed

^^^^^^^ That is a hunting rifle. Nice build Rhutch

 

[tigerfan_9]

Re: 7WSM info needed

The game scout is 2-2.25 lbs as per Mcmillan.

FYI - When I weighed my rem 700 action, trigger, lug, and Surgeon bottom metal to ship it was under 3 lbs including the box it was in. I believe the SS actions weigh a bit more but not much, half a pound or so.

Here is a link to compare weights on various contours:
http://pac-nor.com/cgi-bin/pnb/bweight.cgi

 

[ackleyfan]

Re: 7WSM info needed

I would use the Borden Alpine mag action that is already cut for the wyatt magazine, the action has a 2.75" port and is designed around the short mags, the feed rails are designed to feed the short mags smoother, also has .062 firing pin and a well desighned fire control system, it's a great action for a hunting rifle, a #3 Bartlein cut at 24" in a Game scout or Classic would make a super accurate rig!

 

[mcfred]

Re: 7WSM info needed

If it's a long range hunting rig then I don't think you need much barrel mass to keep the heat down and you can use a 1:9 twist for all the long bullets at high altitude. For a lightweight gun though I'd suggest a brake for maintaining a sight picture for potential follow-up shots at high(er) magnifications. Of course you should wear ear protection and moreso with a brake.

My 7WSM Pierce short action has a 25" factory contour and my max cartridge OAL is 2.975". 180gr Berger anything won't fit in a standard SA magazine without a big jump to the lands, but 180 SMKs actually fit in Alpha mags when .010" off the lands. My 180 SMKs are 2950fps without any flattened primers/cupping. For a strict hunting rig I wouldn't bother with the DBM though, it's just more stuff to get in the way or fail.

I like the 7 mags, it's hard to beat a 14 moa drop at 800 yards from a 200yd zero.

 

[tigerfan_9]

Re: 7WSM info needed

I'd think a detachable mag wouldn't be needed or wanted for a straight hunting rig due to comfort in carrying and weight.

I'm not sure but I'd think you could get longer bullets in an internal/blind mag then a detachable, which would be good for reaching the lands as I understand the bergers like.

 

[Trevor300wsm]

Re: 7WSM info needed

McFred, most people would disagree with you about a brake on a hunting rig, BUT not me!! I agree with you completely. It helps alot with a light weight rifle in a big mag caliber trying to maintain sight/target image after the shot. I personally won't build a rifle without a brake on it. You can always take it off, but atleast it's there if you want it.

 

[Barney88PDC]

Re: 7WSM info needed

The detach mag was just a thought but really I was leaning toward a hinged floor plate. At this point I guess a factory Remington hinged floor plate is what the doctor ordered?

Now to throw a wrench into the equation. I have been contacted by a few people that a 7SAUM would be a better choice. So what are your thoughts.

Barrel: I think a #4 Heavy Sporter at 24" is where I am leaning. A brake is out of the question as I HATE the muzzle report. What twist should I go with?

Action? I know Surgeon has the 1086, is there something that would be better. If so please give a reason not just cause you or your buddy has one and it is great.

The trigger (Jewell) and the stock (Game Scout) I am pretty much sold on. And it will have 2 flush cups left side so my TAB Biathalon carries the bolt away from me with one front stud for a Harris.

So if I nail down twist the barrel, bottom metal, stock, and trigger are picked out. I need some more help on caliber which will help determine action.

PS I AM building a pure hunting gun and not trying to build a dual tactical/hunting rig.

 

[turbo54]

Re: 7WSM info needed

The 7RSAUM has plenty of capacity, but the WSM has more. I can't think of much reason to choose less capacity unless you know you'll run it as hard as it can be run AND you care quite a bit about barrel life. For a hunting rig, I'd think you'd want the WSM.

1:9 will be plenty of twist. If it were me, I'd jump on the first Bartlein I came across with the right contour and length, provided it was between 1:8 and 1:9.

Either SA or LA will work. I'd go with the 1086 if I was going with a Surgeon. That way you can maximize performance (COAL considerations) and rebarrel to whatever you like in the future.

Definitely go with a hinged floorplate...plenty of capacity and not "gangly".

 

[Trevor300wsm]

Re: 7WSM info needed

If you havent found a action yet, 3rd Gen Shooting supply has a couple of the 591 WSM bolt face short actions in stock at a good price.

 

[gme]

Re: 7WSM info needed

I've got two RSAUM's that I use for 1000 yard comps, one has a 28" melonited Krieger the other a 28" untreated Benchmark, both are 9 twist, there's no problem running the 180 Sierra or Berger hybrid at 2960, the 162 Hornaday runs about 3075 with the same load, with a. 220 freebore chamber the COL with a 180 Hybrid will be over 3.1" so you'll need to run t through a long action, the AI. 338 (non CIP) works perfectly with no modifications.

 

[25MAN]

Re: 7WSM info needed

I personally like the SAUM more becuase you can shoot less powder and perform as well if not better then the WSM using more powder.

But for you needs I would just go WSM...brass is more available, cheaper and there are more ammo options outside of relaoding at this point.

and for a hunting gun there is no need to have it mag fed in my opinion. 1:9 twist will handle the 180s with no issue.

really can't go wrong with any 7mm whether short, long or ultr mag.

 

[Barney88PDC]

Re: 7WSM info needed

I have not mentioned but I do reload and will be for whatever caliber I decide on.

 

[mcfred]

Re: 7WSM info needed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barney88PDC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Barrel: I think a #4 Heavy Sporter at 24" is where I am leaning. A brake is out of the question as I HATE the muzzle report. What twist should I go with?
</div></div>

It's not a dangerous game rifle where you might need to hear the pitter patter of a lion approaching your rear and hearing protection's truely a liability. At (up to) 800yds you can relax and take your time to shoot at elk. For the price of some trophy bull elk hunts I'd do whatever I could to ensure a follow up shot in the event of a miss and that means I'd have a brake. I know, I know. Personal preferance and whatnot, just my 2¢. Of course I work in a machine shop so I wear ear protection most days for hours and have ear plugs in my pocket all the time.

As far as your equipment list I think it's hard to go wrong. I don't think many animals in the western hemisphere are going to notice the difference of one bullet or another out of a SAUM or a WSM if you do your job and put it where it needs to be.

 

[tigerfan_9]

Re: 7WSM info needed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barney88PDC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And correct me if I am wrong but 7SAUM is Short Action Ultra Mag but it is a Long Action caliber? What gives? </div></div>

http://www.6mmbr.com/7mm284.html

According to this the OAL of the 7mm WSM is 2.860 and the 7mm SAUM is 2.8252. So you would have more room to play with seating depth in the SAUM in a short action.

 

[DZelenka]

Re: 7WSM info needed

Barney,

If you are looking to build a pure hunting rifle, a 26" #4 or maybe a #5 is perfect. Without scope or mounts, you are looking at about 8 lbs 6 oz for a #5 and 7 lbs 14 oz for a #4. This would be with a Remington long action and a McMillan hunting stock.The gun is light enough to Carry, but heavy enough to shoot. It doesn't kick enough to need a brake.

With my 7SAUM and 180 gr Hybrids, I get an average of 2975fps with 65.7 gr of Retumbo and WLR primer in a Nosler case. Same load with 210Ms runs 2950 fps and CCi 200s around 2920 fps. (Interesting difference with just a primer change.) My chamber has .188" of FB and the Hybrid's OAL to the lands is 3.080" (VLD is 3.025" to lands).

If you are interested, we can hook up and you can check out my rifle.

Dan

 

[Barney88PDC]

Re: 7WSM info needed

Thanks for all of the help guys. I decided to go with a 7mm RSAUM instead of my original 7WSM. It looks like the the 7WSM might have a little bit more horsepower but the 7RSAUM uses its better so to speak. Either way and Elk / Mule Deer isnt going to tell the difference from what caliber the 180 Berger VLD Hunting bullet came from.

I had my buddy who is a smith talk with Dave at PTG and I spoke with Roscoe and got there thoughts. The .188 vs the .220 freebore is not going to be much different. Dave recommended a .180 reamer stating that the lands are going to move pretty quick and by the time load development is done they might be at .188. He recommended a .3185 neck to assure no neck turning would be needed.

Components are:
Action: Surgeon 1086 (Long action so I can seat the 180's out and not worry about mag length)
Barrel: Kreiger 5R 1:9 RV (I wanted something a little lighter contour but didnt want to wait)
Trigger: Jewell
Bottom Metal: Badger M4 Aluminum
Stock: McMillan Game Scout in McMillan Camo
Thinking about a brown or tanish color on the metal once it's all finished.

THIS THING IS GOING TO BE A MEAT TRAIN!!!

I plugged in the ballistics to Ballistic FTE on my iPhone and a factory .338 Laupua running a 250 Lapua Scenar is neck and neck with a 180gr Berger going 2950 out to 800 yards. 4.8 vs 4.9 on the elevation and the same at 1.2 on the wind. Only one click (0.1 MIL) differnent on the elevation and the same on the wind!!! OMG

 

[264highlandhunter]

Re: 7WSM info needed

#3 barlein. 1 in 8.75

 

[VKC]

Re: 7WSM info needed

I would be interested in how your rifle turns out. I have a heavy tactical rifle in 7mm WSM, but want a lighter hunting version.

 

[Barney88PDC]

Re: 7WSM info needed

Getting Closer. Ok I ate my words on the brake. Should be back from coating very soon and the stock should be here any time now. Picked up a S&B 4-16x42 to top it off with.

 

[Barney88PDC]

I guess I never updated the thread once it was complete.

Final Specs:
Caliber: 7RSAUM
Action: Surgeon 1086R
Barrel: 26" 1:9 Kreiger 5R Remington Varmit Contour Threaded 5/8" x 24
Muzzle Brake: JEC Custom
Stock: McMillan Game Scout in McMillan Camo
Trigger: Jewell set to 2#
Bottom Metal: Badger M4
Rings: Seekins 34mm Low 4 Screw
Optic: S&B 4-16x42 PM II Gen2 XL retical with 0.1 MIL turrets
Bipod: Harris 9-13" Notched Leg Swivel with KMW Lever
Metal Coating: Cerakote in Patriot Brown

I finally settled on a load (Nosler Brass, CCI BR2, 65.5 H1000, 180 Berger Hunting VLD 0.015" into lands) and needed to go get DOPE at distance. This was the first time I shot this gun past 200 yards. All groups were 3 shots.

I needed to zero the scope for this load so I started at 100 yards. Here is the frist three from the day with a 1" orange dot. 0.664" - 0.284" = .380"

This is from 300 yards with a 2" orange dot. I aimed right edge for a slight quatering wind but didnt need it. I also guessed on the elevation and was 3 clicks too high. 1.184 - 0.284 = 0.900" 300 yard group.

500 Yards the orange reactive flapper is 7.5" in diameter. Shots are the grey marks at approximately 2:00, 2:30 and 3:30

1000 yards. Not a great group but the two on the right were consistant. Target is an ISPC which is 18" wide.

 

[Tango down]

Barney88PDC
Glad you posted these pics; IMHO you did your homework well, talked to the right people, made the right decisions and it shows.
Great looking rifle and great results.
What is the total weight rifle/scope/bipod?
Congratulations.
Ombre noire

 

[Barney88PDC]

12.5# rigged out with scope, rings, bipod.

 

[medium rare]

That is an awesome rig. I have a 7 saum also and I'm having a hard time finding brass. I got 4th in my first f-class match with it. I had good luck with the 180 hybrids and h4350. It was a great choice in caliber in my opinion.