That’s crazy. I shoot my 9mm 160s in the mid 800fps - zero recoil. I do have quite a bit of N105 for 300blk subsonic bolt loads. Maybe I’ll try a few at 5.5 and work my way up. Is that more of a subgun load or are you actually shooting 1020fps out of a semi auto handgun ?
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9mm powder for defensive rounds
- Thread starter Ape_Factory
- Start date
Eh. Take the info on that website with a grain of salt. At least in the defensive loads category, the author has no business making recommendations because he doesn’t understand the differences I mentioned above between defense needs and target needs. He recommended Blue Dot and even Power Pistol, two of the highest flash powders in this category, while discarding AA7 which was made specifically for hot 9mm loads and is very low flash.
When someone’s recommendations like that obviously ignore the needs of the application, it’s time to look elsewhere for advice.
Edited to add - in the suppressed section, the author failed to test ANY of the really good 9mm suppressed powders: Clays, Green Dot, American Select, etc, or even Bullseye.
I don’t know the author, but based on what they’ve written I’m guessing they don’t have a lot of experience in defense and suppressed loads at least.
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Agree. I meant more that it is nice to have everything feel the same way going through your press, so you don't get weird failures from getting out of rhythm.
I don't load for SD, but I am in grizzly country, and I do load for that, and it does take more attention from me, plus chamber checking and using new brass, since I really don't shoot those loads much, using new brass is not a problem. Not 9mm, 10mm and 44 mag.
My experience is that the VV powders from N340 up are almost indistinguishable. Yes, you need different grain weight loads, but they are all really good, clean and consistent, and you can get about the same velocity. I used to shoot a lot of 9x23 Win, and 3N37 is the go to for that, but when I run out of 340, I often use 3n37 to get the same outcome. I think n105 is a little slow, probably too slow for 9mm. I see 3n38 as very much like AA9, so more of a 10mm powder. YMMV of course.
I know asking about which powder is best for 9mm is a neverending problem with too many solutions.
I have loaded literally 10's of thousands of 9mm and I have tested a bunch of different powders in the process. I load for a bunch of different calibers so I narrowed it down to the 2 that worked best for the most situations. HP38 and HS-6 cover just about all of it.
I really like HS-6 in 9mm clean burning great velocity and a full case. The full case is a great way to avoid double charging. The bonus is if you load other calibers HS-6 will likely work in plenty of them. HP-38 is much the same as HS-6 just a tad bit faster. Both meter extremely well.
Another plus is that I see HS-6 available all the time, so if you like it more should be available, that can be important in these times of shortages.
I have loaded literally 10's of thousands of 9mm and I have tested a bunch of different powders in the process. I load for a bunch of different calibers so I narrowed it down to the 2 that worked best for the most situations. HP38 and HS-6 cover just about all of it.
I really like HS-6 in 9mm clean burning great velocity and a full case. The full case is a great way to avoid double charging. The bonus is if you load other calibers HS-6 will likely work in plenty of them. HP-38 is much the same as HS-6 just a tad bit faster. Both meter extremely well.
Another plus is that I see HS-6 available all the time, so if you like it more should be available, that can be important in these times of shortages.
This is the smartest course of action.
One thing to note is that most of these bullets have an expansion velocity envelope, and what the load testing done at the factory is to maximize that expansion without increasing undesirable side effects. In other words, pushing your bullet much faster than is necessary to get max terminal effect is just giving you more recoil, and while 9mm doesn't really recoil, more of it is never the best idea.
For example, look at HST. According to Lucky Gunner, with 124/125 class bullets you are getting .61"/18.3" in a standard 9mm, .66"/18" in a +p, and .61/18" in a 357 Sig, so going from 1130 to 1160 to 1360 fps with basically the same bullet isn't getting you anything but a less shootable gun. Basically the same thing for Hornady and Golden Saber, while with Gold Dots you seem to get more for your extra speed.
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The most important thing to stress here is test, test, test different defensive ammo in YOUR guns. Just because lucky gunner says you get more with Gold Dots doesn't mean your gun likes them.
I bought a case of 124 Gold Dots years ago.. my carry guns HATED them. Shot them like buck shot.
They LOVE HST, very very accurate out of my carry guns. So just because someone says one flavor is the best, doesn't mean it shoots well in your gun. Find what shoots well in YOUR gun. Don't just buy a box, say oh I got HST, or I got Gold Dots I'm good without testing them in your gun......
3.8 grains of Titegroup with a 125 grain polymer coated bullet = 142 PF = 1135 fps
Easy to take it to 4.1 - 4.2 grains and get into the 1200's for +P velocity.
Is it ideal? No. Something slightly slower burning is better.
Is it a poor choice? I guess if you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground about reloading.
In any case, reloading your own self defense loads is stupid. Massad Ayoob usually doesn't make claims that he can't back up with citation to actual trials/lawsuits where the issue in question actually cropped up. You can disregard his advice and mine, IDGAF
I agree with what is posted about NOT carrying reloads. Too many things to go wrong horribly if you have to use them. The Massad Ayoob references @308pirate referenced are spot on. There are some major issues after the incident with handloads. The powder burn tests mentioned are nearly impossible to use without traceable ammo. Any DA that has half a brain, and wants to, will use that to make you "evil" - premeditation, more deadly, and the list goes on and on. At the least they would use it to escalate the charges, manslaughter to first degree murder or whatever your state calls it. Another thing I recommend is to carry whatever ammo the local/county/state or even FBI use. It's hard to make an argument of more deadly when the bailiff has the same round in his duty gun. Performance of the best carry/duty ammo isn't going to be improved on in any meaningful way if at all anyway. DON'T DO IT!
Now if you want to try and emulate said carry round for practice that could be helpful. I personally load FMJ using Titegroup for practice stuff. It's clean, consistent, efficient, versatile and inexpensive compared to other powders. I use it for practice in all my handguns from 380 to 44 mag. It isn't going to get you high velocity though. Again like mentioned use a slower powder. And again already mentioned, use powders designed to meet PF. I use Lil' gun in my 357/44 but it's too slow for a 9mm. I have power pistol if I wanted to do that to a 9mm, but again, don't and there is no reason to do it.
Now if you want to try and emulate said carry round for practice that could be helpful. I personally load FMJ using Titegroup for practice stuff. It's clean, consistent, efficient, versatile and inexpensive compared to other powders. I use it for practice in all my handguns from 380 to 44 mag. It isn't going to get you high velocity though. Again like mentioned use a slower powder. And again already mentioned, use powders designed to meet PF. I use Lil' gun in my 357/44 but it's too slow for a 9mm. I have power pistol if I wanted to do that to a 9mm, but again, don't and there is no reason to do it.
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Die quality for handguns has really gone to a new level recently. All sorts of handgun reloading stuff has. About time.
This thread could show up in court as would all of your other posts. Every legal expert that I have talked to or read says the same thing. Do not load your self defense ammunition.
YES! I was reading up on that last night as I received my die set. I actually have the original barrel as I'd replaced it with a threaded version. I have a Sheridan gauge for 300 blackout, think that'd be a better choice (if they make it in 9mm) than a barrel? And I do confirm each case is charged prior to seating.
Yeah, I get your point. I don’t use it really. I just never see it in stock and I wanted to try it.
Honestly, I don’t even like pistols but I have 4 of them and a bunch of shit to reload them. Just never really do it much. Mostly 45 acp and I use bullseye for that.
Shoot I’d be lying if I said I even have thought about a defensive load but I can surely understand the need and not wanting a huge ball of fire
Nope; your barrel is the most accurate gauge you have.
I'll likely stick to 124/125's as I want consistency. And I'll sort brass but do you have any suggestions for good brass in general that I should try and hoard?
I keep my FC brass for heavy bullet suppressed loads, and like Blazer for middle weight stuff because it’s consistent enough and I have a lot of it.
There is better brass of course but if you can’t find much if it there’s not much point.
I have no need to roll size because I’m not trying to reuse someone’s Major brass or run an excessively tight chamber. Never had a need to use new brass either, for the same reasons.
More hot air from one of the worst blowhards on the forum.
Oh look another guy who gets sand in his mangina when someone disagrees!
I told you IDGAF what you personally do. I only replied to your dumb post to warn others.
going to recommend you stick to factory ammo for carry gun and use reloads to practice with. Duty ammo is manufactured with tighter quality control( due to liability and PR issues) then bulk ammo. Powder is selected for consistency in cold/ hot temperatures, not sensitive to case position.Bullets are tested for expansion and penetration under consistent controls,auto glass, heavy clothing , temperature of the ballistic jello it is shot through. one box of ammo a year at a $1. a round is not outrageous. the major PD where i can use the range with my retired ID checks each box of duty ammo they give to PO with EGW case gauge due production issues , case mouth occasionally nicked from bullet seating which can cause feeding problems. Tightgroup ,CFE pistol and Unique will give you 1100-1200 FPS with 115 gr and 124 gr bullets depending on your load following reloading manual not the inter net experts,(chronograph my loads) . mixed brass can give you inconsistent crimping pressure to different case wall thickness , can have chamber issues depending on gun it was fired in and how tight your pistol chamber is. good luck on your search for the perfect powder, today you take what you can find
...the Sheridan gauges are made with a SAAMI reamer to the MIN SAAMI spec so it would work for "across the board" with SAAMI compliant barrels. The rub is one can never tell if the barrel in hand is actually "SAAMI Compliant"
Using the barrel in hand as a "chamber checker" is an old school method, especially for semi's like 9mm and .45ACP that headspace on the OAL of the brass (case mouth) in addition to the ogive of the bullet in use. Still a valid and efficient method. Brass growth in pistol cases does occur and more rapidly with "hot loads", requiring checking over time.Hello. I run natoreloading.com
Let me just say from testing for years, the following.
Titegroup is not recommended by myself, I just think you can do a lot better. Its cheap, available, meters good and it shoots, that is the positives. The positives end there.
For self defense rounds, I am running a large self defense round test in a few weeks. It will be between 147 G2 Speer reloads, 147 XTP reloads, 147 HST reloads, and 124 Gold dot reloads, 124 V Crown reloads. Using Silhouette, N330, and a few others. These are once commercial loads. This just tests accuracy, not effectiveness, since you can get that from 100 guys on youtube with the gel. don't forget 12-18" or its JUNK! LOL
3N38 is not a good 9 MM powder. However, if you put muscle down the lever to put your 147 grain bullet, with say 7 grains, man..is it POWERFUL. Its off the chart. I will include this in the test, I think I have 6.9 with 147 XTP loaded up. I also have Blue dot loaded up with 124's at like 7.8 grains which is powerful too. but not near 3N38. I also have some +PP 3N37 loaded up for comparo. 3N37 is sort of like comparable to Silhouette, except I dont find it to be as accurate, and also, Silhouette has better case fill. I prefer Silhouette over 3N37, and I bet so does pretty much everyone who has used both.
When I say the following, I am certain of it beyond doubt,
VV N330/N340 are without question, the best 9 MM powders, in the history of mankind. (Ok, I am being dramatic, but I believe it)
Silhouette makes too much mess when you use with suppressor, while N330 does not. If that is not an issue, SIl is God tier powder.
N330/N340 are stick powders, SOOOO if you INSIST on wanting a "Meter like water" powder, then you want one of the following
TRUE BLUE or SILHOUETTE
CFE pistol is ok, but in that range BE-86 is superior. I don't recommend Power Pistol if you can get BE-86 because its inferior (My opinion). If you can get BE-86, you get it.
So there is like S tier, A Tier, B Tier, C Tier is average.
S Tier is N330/N340
A Tier is Silhouette, Sport Pistol, N320, BE-86 for example. One could argue HS-6 is A tier too, its all debatable.
B Tier UNIQUE, CFE pistol, WAC, AA#2
C Tier Blue Dot, Red Dot
D Tier Titegroup, IMR Blue,
I like Blue Dot for standard pressure loads for people not super comfortable reloading. BLue dot will make less than average ES though. While, if you know what you are doing N330 can have ES under 10 and SD under 5.
N330 is really, really, really good. Its sort of like a "superior" Unique. Unique is good powder, I place on B tier.
I hope this helps. I don't want to tell anyone what to buy, what to do, or any of that. I just want to provide opinions and data, so people can make informed decisions. What works for me, may not work for you, what is safe for me, may not be safe for you. Work up and be careful.
Obviously, I cannot test 40 powders for every test. When you post anything in the internet, you can't please everyone. The site is a giant reference for people to use to make more informed "starting" decisions about what they want to do, for whatever application their hobby likes. I made it because I wanted it before I started reloaded, to help me save money and time. Since I didn't have it, I made it so help other people save money and time. I undertsand about Blue Dot. You would be surprised how many people who hate that powder. But its pretty good for beginners, it has good pros, and some cons.
Semper Fi
Let me just say from testing for years, the following.
Titegroup is not recommended by myself, I just think you can do a lot better. Its cheap, available, meters good and it shoots, that is the positives. The positives end there.
For self defense rounds, I am running a large self defense round test in a few weeks. It will be between 147 G2 Speer reloads, 147 XTP reloads, 147 HST reloads, and 124 Gold dot reloads, 124 V Crown reloads. Using Silhouette, N330, and a few others. These are once commercial loads. This just tests accuracy, not effectiveness, since you can get that from 100 guys on youtube with the gel. don't forget 12-18" or its JUNK! LOL
3N38 is not a good 9 MM powder. However, if you put muscle down the lever to put your 147 grain bullet, with say 7 grains, man..is it POWERFUL. Its off the chart. I will include this in the test, I think I have 6.9 with 147 XTP loaded up. I also have Blue dot loaded up with 124's at like 7.8 grains which is powerful too. but not near 3N38. I also have some +PP 3N37 loaded up for comparo. 3N37 is sort of like comparable to Silhouette, except I dont find it to be as accurate, and also, Silhouette has better case fill. I prefer Silhouette over 3N37, and I bet so does pretty much everyone who has used both.
When I say the following, I am certain of it beyond doubt,
VV N330/N340 are without question, the best 9 MM powders, in the history of mankind. (Ok, I am being dramatic, but I believe it)
Silhouette makes too much mess when you use with suppressor, while N330 does not. If that is not an issue, SIl is God tier powder.
N330/N340 are stick powders, SOOOO if you INSIST on wanting a "Meter like water" powder, then you want one of the following
TRUE BLUE or SILHOUETTE
CFE pistol is ok, but in that range BE-86 is superior. I don't recommend Power Pistol if you can get BE-86 because its inferior (My opinion). If you can get BE-86, you get it.
So there is like S tier, A Tier, B Tier, C Tier is average.
S Tier is N330/N340
A Tier is Silhouette, Sport Pistol, N320, BE-86 for example. One could argue HS-6 is A tier too, its all debatable.
B Tier UNIQUE, CFE pistol, WAC, AA#2
C Tier Blue Dot, Red Dot
D Tier Titegroup, IMR Blue,
I like Blue Dot for standard pressure loads for people not super comfortable reloading. BLue dot will make less than average ES though. While, if you know what you are doing N330 can have ES under 10 and SD under 5.
N330 is really, really, really good. Its sort of like a "superior" Unique. Unique is good powder, I place on B tier.
I hope this helps. I don't want to tell anyone what to buy, what to do, or any of that. I just want to provide opinions and data, so people can make informed decisions. What works for me, may not work for you, what is safe for me, may not be safe for you. Work up and be careful.
Obviously, I cannot test 40 powders for every test. When you post anything in the internet, you can't please everyone. The site is a giant reference for people to use to make more informed "starting" decisions about what they want to do, for whatever application their hobby likes. I made it because I wanted it before I started reloaded, to help me save money and time. Since I didn't have it, I made it so help other people save money and time. I undertsand about Blue Dot. You would be surprised how many people who hate that powder. But its pretty good for beginners, it has good pros, and some cons.
Semper Fi
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I got N350 a long time ago that I’ve never used. I thought it could work for 9mm also (but I think I got it to try to 45acp. Can’t remember). I do remember being pissed b/c I meant to get n340. So, have you tried n350 for 9mm?
Another one for CFE pistol.l, especially for 9mm. It works fine in .45 acp loads (for me) too, though I still prefer Winchester 231 for 230gr loads.
The VV series, is not intuitive, as one would think N320, 330, 340, 350 then 3N37 and 3N38, and one would think case fill, etc is sort of linear.
This is not the case, as N350 takes about the same charge as 3N37, except for 1 problem. Its WAYYY more bulky
350 is OK for 115-147 grain bullets, and will work good, its good, but 340 as you wanted, is superior. Some guys use it for high compression loads. It lacks versatility for the entire 9 MM bullet weight range because its bulky. If you only use like 115-124 grain bullets, I would say its a good performer. Its accurate as nuts. thats 4 shots at 30 feet using XDM Springfield with an SD of 5. That is pretty top tier result and totally viable in 9MM Major.
I see a lot of opinions and not any data
Also, what is your criteria for "best"? Best at what? Best for what?
Just my opinion, but 310 and 320 are the best 45 powders in the line. 330 is a do it all. 340, 350 and 3n37 are the best 9mm powders. But really from 330 to 3n37 you can get the same performance without noticing a difference if you work at it. On the margins you'll get more velocity with 3n37 and n350, but only if that is what you want. They are all good, clean burning, consistent, accurate powders.
@semperfireloading thanks! I do have 115s and 124s and would like to use it up and try it. My problem is my only 9mm pistol is a beretta full frame and the double stage trigger I suck at using
Ill still try it though
Ill still try it though
Yeah I’m starting to remember now. I didn’t get it for 45. I got it for 9
I’m gonna try it. Now that I have a zero press I’m only using my Dillon xl650 for pistols otherwise it would just collect dust LOL
You seem to be way off base on suppressed powders, not even trying any of the good choices. Silhouette for example is a great powder for hot loads and pushing bullets fast; it's a very poor choice for subsonic loads that tend to be run at lower pressure or at lower powder charge weights. Further than that, Silhouette just isn't even in the right burn rate for a good suppressed powder; you should be looking at faster powders that use the smallest quantity possible to reduce muzzle pressure, while also producing a good burn due to their fast burning nature.
I've already mentioned the issues with your defensive load powder suggestions. If you're disregarding flash, then your recommendations are not worth much unfortunately.
Seems to me there are a number of factors you should step back and reconsider prior to making such large claims, beyond just accuracy, velocity, and case fill.
So I think the site intention is a misunderstanding. You thought I was recommending, when in fact, I just just testing a popular variety and posting the results so people can see and make their own judgements. Some of the variety are TERRIBLE choices. You know they are, and I know they are, but they are popular, so they get picked. I got your point, I will try and do better with the text to make the intention more clear. Same misunderstanding on the self defense page. Its not implying USE THESE for self defense. Its saying that the bullets used are in the self defense classification, and here is what is accurate and what velocity it is. That is it. That is what the entire text says too.
My site is not like all those ones that do Gel tests, then the guy goes on a diatribe about how it penetrated 18.1" so thus it doesn't pass the FBI test with a rifle, thus its junk. I don't make judgements like that of what is great for X application. I just show the basics, so people can see what the characteristics are, like accuracy, velocity, SD, ES, flash, blowback, case fill, pressure, etc. That is a lot different than what is effective and what is not. Those are the meat target guys, and the gel guys, or the special forces guys that shoot through dry wall and brick and all that. My site has nothing to do with that, its for reloading to display characteristics of powder, bullets, primers, brass. etc. I hope that helps. I hope you like the flash tests, it helps get to the point your making better.
If you think that someone in your position is going to achieve faster split times based on the burn rate and relative weight of the powder and powder charge that you use, you are greatly misguided. You’ll be far better served developing a load that mimics the velocity and accuracy of an established factory loaded duty/defense round and that you can afford to shoot a large volume of for training,
The first table shown below uses the 124 grain XTP bullet loaded to a muzzle velocity of 1100 FPS with a powder charge of 5.7 grains of Power Pistol. The recoil energy for this load when fired from a Glock 19 is 5.29 foot-pounds.
The next example uses a smaller powder charge of a faster burning powder to achieve the same muzzle velocity using 5.2 grains of BE-86. The recoil energy for this load when fired from a Glock 19 is 5.16 foot-pounds. The difference in the recoil energy of these two loads is 0.13 foot pounds; a difference that you will never be able to notice.
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All you could possibly wrap your head around:
Accuracy testing conducted using 3-shot groups at 5 yards. T-H-R-E-E shots at F-I-V-E yards.
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Quite minimal for sure.
When chronographed from my Gen 2 Glock 19 (with the factory original barrel) the standard pressure 147 grain HST load (P9HST2) had a muzzle velocity of 1018 FPS.
The advertised muzzle velocity of the +P variant is 1050 FPS. I chronographed three different lots of the +P variant from the Glock 19. The average muzzle velocity was 1029 FPS.
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Unless loading for some bizarre threat or weapon or scenario I buy my defense ammo. Usually only every couple of yrs. I buy a bunch all at once. Over a year or two or three I may use up a bit here or there trying it in different guns or just 5o run some through. You can load practice ammo to recreate it. I probably burn most of it up shooting at snapping turtles, water snakes, raccoons, or when I walk past my pistol targets doing something random and decide to send a few as I walk by.
Less than 250 rounds a year.
If you are newer to reloading I wouldn't trust my life to inexperience or inexpensive.
Less than 250 rounds a year.
If you are newer to reloading I wouldn't trust my life to inexperience or inexpensive.
Not only that, but the 125 grain HAP is the most accurate 9mm bullet that I've tested.
10-shot group at 25 yards. Extreme spread = 0.413".
10-shot group at 50 yards. Extreme spread = 0.85".
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Fuck dude, that's some impressive groups, I know that pistol was in a vice, had to be....Not only that, but the 125 grain HAP is the most accurate 9mm bullet that I've tested.
10-shot group at 25 yards. Extreme spread = 0.413".
10-shot group at 50 yards. Extreme spread = 0.85".
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Hi Molon, yes, that section is more useful for load comparison, not accuracy. I would hope nobody thinks 3 shots is the end all. If I can do anything better to make things clear, please mail me and I will make improvements. I take all feedback and try and do better.
