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Sidearms & Scatterguns 9MM Wins - Thanks FBI
- Thread starter Cobracutter
- Start date
That's the Dinkheller shooting. A lot of things went wrong on this one. He did get a center mass hit on the bad guy. I believe it was 9mm, but if it was .40 or .45 it would have been the same result with a gut shot on a determined individual.
One thing not really touched upon that I have seen in some of the circles and communities I have ties with reduces it down to usability. I have seen typically a Glock or S&W swing, focused around the 9mm. This allows whole departments etc to all run the same magazines with the same rounds and interchange/exchange them at will. The mention of training and budget did come up, this imho falls under the same category.
It comes down to more than just stopping power it also revolves around setting a standard that allows support for your team. Not opening the Brand X vs. Y debate, just saying if the FBI has relevant data to then convince more and more agencies to standardize to a round, it then opens the door to standardizing the service weapon.
It comes down to more than just stopping power it also revolves around setting a standard that allows support for your team. Not opening the Brand X vs. Y debate, just saying if the FBI has relevant data to then convince more and more agencies to standardize to a round, it then opens the door to standardizing the service weapon.
The Dinkelheller case is a prime example of everything not being done by the book.
When the individual is stopped and immediately shows combativeness - the backup should be called and waited for. Having a tactical means to subdue the subject was not present.
When the individual is openly disobeying the order from the officer to keep his distance - A simple weapon at that point brought out and used, such as a taser, nightstick, even hand-to-hand, which the officer clearly did not want to use any force. The officer clearly did not put his "stayin' alive" mindset on that morning. The individual walked all over him, and that is no way to control a situation.
When the individual goes back to the truck and is clearly prepping something for a coming battle - the officer should have opened fire right then. (with his 9mm, .357, .357 Sig, .40 or .45.) The individual is no longer a safety hazard to just the officer. He has now become a safety hazard to the public. He is ignoring all calls to stop doing what he is doing and address the law (of the people).
Something the officer (and each and every one of you officers still on duty) that in a shootout (read fight to the death), the last goddamned thing you can still hold onto is a weapon. Anything! When the perpetrator (formerly individual) is standing in the door of his vehicle prepping something, the officer could have used that nice brush guard/super-bumper of his to ram the vehicle. Taking away the opportunity of the perp to continue the civil disobedience. Your vehicle is literally your "fort-on-wheels". If you can't use it for protection, at least use it to put distance between you and the threat. Or, better yet, use it as a needed weapon to subdue the threat.
Finally, marksmanship under duress. Most of us, me included, do not fire our weapons under some duress. A lot of shooting in a firefight involves 360 degree awareness. But, that can't override the need to focus entirely, momentarily on a target you have chosen.
Want a little peacetime practice at this? Take your shotgun and go quail or dove hunting. Focus on one bird each flush. And take that bird. I've seen guys let a whole covey get away because they couldn't focus on one target. Worse, sometimes they wound a couple when flock shooting at max range. Consider that collateral damage. Avoid it. Focus on your target for the shot. Believe me, that mindset will help you get exactly what you aim for.
Considering handgun marksmanship/profiency, how many of you take your weapon out each day and practice drawing with it and/or dry-firing? I know if I change weapons, it sights differently because it fits differently in my hand. I have to re-learn that muscle memory for that weapon.
Which brings me to my final point. What about the weapons? The FBI report talks about larger/smaller weapons, weapons wearing out, reduced recoil etc. Is there a best choice of action with interchangeable grips? Meaning some like the 1911 style grip and others like the Sig/CZ style. The CZ style fits my hand like a glove. But, I shoot better with my 1911. I noticed a little Kahr in 9mm I shot this past summer flipped in my hand like a .44 Mag. Lightweight, seven shots convenient carry. Hit a post at 7 yds, 1-7 times. Point blank accuracy...okay. Closing accuracy....shit! I'd be physically closed with a perp if they were a determined attacker by the time I started getting hits. Halfway out of ammo, too. Again, not a caliber choice but a useable handgun choice.
What your your thoughts on weapons? Personal choice or mandate something useable?
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I understand sending people to training facilities costs money. But, if department trainers mandate time to training, with the far less expensive methods, it doesn't cost that much money. You don't need to send all of your people to these new high cost 'super-cop' programs. They cost a lot of money. What departments need is for officers to get out with tried and true drills and spend the time doing them.
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My thought is purely on consistency. If you run with a team, any team member should be able to grab your mag and go, or pick up your weapon and have familiarity with it. I like the 9mm platform from the perspective of carrying 17-19 rounds in a service weapon/EDC. If I could carry 17-19 rounds of .45 in a magazine, and the mag would remain flush(or close enough) I would recommend going that route.
I prefer the mandate something useable, but that is the key point of the statement, "useable." If a significant number of your team is proficient and effective with a style of weapon, push it. A team of 5 people using load outs that are not compatible has the potential to diminish the effectiveness of the team. Everyone's experience is their own, but removing variables typically improves results.
I prefer the mandate something useable, but that is the key point of the statement, "useable." If a significant number of your team is proficient and effective with a style of weapon, push it. A team of 5 people using load outs that are not compatible has the potential to diminish the effectiveness of the team. Everyone's experience is their own, but removing variables typically improves results.
I will stick with my Kel-tec PMR loaded with 30 CCI .22 magnum Maxi mag TNT rounds at 2200fps. Four rounds to the head (or center mass) in about a second should do the trick, and I still have 26 rounds left in the magazine.
Back up is a luxury in many places. DT guys watch the video and say he should have tackled the subject before he got back to his truck. Firearms guys say he should have shot him as soon as he saw him pulling the rifle out. Either would have been preferable to what happened. Sad situation. The officer in question was disciplined before this for drawing his gun to often so he was scared of that as well. I wish I could just call for back up all time but that is not the reality.
Pat
Thanks for everyones input yall. Been a mite bit enlightening.
Im also grateful noones trying to get into any type of feminine emotional "WHY?!!!" type of BS and is keeping everything professional in here. It was a sad unfortunate turn of events, happened one county west from my back yard.
Im currently bout 200mi away now, and it just so happens the nephew of Mr Andrew(the killer) is working alongside me at my current employer. Small world. Hes apologetic about the incident and I consider him a good dude. Im not here to question Mr Andrew`s actions, he did what he did and it was wrong. He was dealt with and is sitting on death row for it(nephew says hes made his peace with god and is of a lot more sound mind). It was an unfortunate moment for Mr Dinkheller in which Mr Brannan came out on top. Thems the facts Ill leave it at that.
Im also grateful noones trying to get into any type of feminine emotional "WHY?!!!" type of BS and is keeping everything professional in here. It was a sad unfortunate turn of events, happened one county west from my back yard.
Im currently bout 200mi away now, and it just so happens the nephew of Mr Andrew(the killer) is working alongside me at my current employer. Small world. Hes apologetic about the incident and I consider him a good dude. Im not here to question Mr Andrew`s actions, he did what he did and it was wrong. He was dealt with and is sitting on death row for it(nephew says hes made his peace with god and is of a lot more sound mind). It was an unfortunate moment for Mr Dinkheller in which Mr Brannan came out on top. Thems the facts Ill leave it at that.
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Interesting side note there forgetful Coyote. That reminds me of the time I was in Maintenance Control at Mesaba and I had to call outstation MX in Indiana (IIRC) and used one mechanic by the name of James Hoffa... cousin to Jimmy. Awkward, to say the least, when I found that out. Mostly in my mind because I repeated so many jokes about that.
Anyhow, I'm still wondering how many departments have 'feet draggers' when it comes to doing the walk-through cheap type training.
Also, regarding pistol size/type. I carried a 1911 often on my webgear in the military. Not in/out of a patrol rig. Obviously, size matters here, no pun intended, as packing a pistol around that size, probably isn't too comfortable for that job. So, what really do most LE guys here find 'adequate' for size, yet not too big so it catches on everything. But, big enough to handle the recoil and allow you to get a good feel for it.
The M9 seems to me to be just as big as the 1911, if maybe a little lighter. Which leads me to ask about another aspect, how well does your duty belt disperse the weight or is it tweaking your back. What other method of carry do you find more feasible?
Anyhow, I'm still wondering how many departments have 'feet draggers' when it comes to doing the walk-through cheap type training.
Also, regarding pistol size/type. I carried a 1911 often on my webgear in the military. Not in/out of a patrol rig. Obviously, size matters here, no pun intended, as packing a pistol around that size, probably isn't too comfortable for that job. So, what really do most LE guys here find 'adequate' for size, yet not too big so it catches on everything. But, big enough to handle the recoil and allow you to get a good feel for it.
The M9 seems to me to be just as big as the 1911, if maybe a little lighter. Which leads me to ask about another aspect, how well does your duty belt disperse the weight or is it tweaking your back. What other method of carry do you find more feasible?
I carry a commander size 1911. When I was uniform, I carried an M&P .40, which I liked quite a bit.
I will probably go back to the M&P as it is lighter than the steel frame that I am carrying now with the added benefit of more rounds per mag.
I have been known to carry a model 625 in .45 acp also, but that was rather impractical, but VERY cool.
I dislike the ergos of the glock but can see why so many carry them and have even recommended them.
Lots of folks tout "well, look at all the PD's that carry Glocks". That is because they are dirt cheap at PD prices, not because they are the best thing ever made.
I own a taurus 24/7 pro that I like very much, it fits the hand very well, points well and hold 17 rounds of 9mm in a mag. I've been considering carrying that as it has been utterly reliable and a pleasure to shoot.
I will probably go back to the M&P as it is lighter than the steel frame that I am carrying now with the added benefit of more rounds per mag.
I have been known to carry a model 625 in .45 acp also, but that was rather impractical, but VERY cool.
I dislike the ergos of the glock but can see why so many carry them and have even recommended them.
Lots of folks tout "well, look at all the PD's that carry Glocks". That is because they are dirt cheap at PD prices, not because they are the best thing ever made.
I own a taurus 24/7 pro that I like very much, it fits the hand very well, points well and hold 17 rounds of 9mm in a mag. I've been considering carrying that as it has been utterly reliable and a pleasure to shoot.
Not to start a debate. But Glocks do have a very good military law enforcement discount (I know as I bought one that way) and I know they sell very cheap to police and the such.
But one thing people have to remember is price is ALWAYS a factor when determining anything with military or police. If something performs ok but it much cheaper that will be the item they choose. Prime example is in my opinion many rifels that perform much better than the M4 that we are issued. But the bean counters have a huge impact on what is actually purchased. Sad but true. I have to imagine (as I do not know for a fact) that it is the same way with the police force.
ALso a reminder to not start a debate I said nothing about which caliber is better just that price is a def factor one can not leave out.
You know as well as I do that cost is the driving factor in ALL departmental purchases.
Yeah, they work.
So do M&P's, CZ's, Sigs, HK, Springfield Armory, Kahr arms etc... I'm not bashing glocks, but when they sell them in bulk for about 370 per, it is what gets bought.
It is a smart move, because then many of the civilians purchase said guns because glock advertises the fact that they have so many PD contracts.
My bias toward Glock is that I have owned 9 of them through the years, and I've never had one that didn't work. Had a couple 1911's that didn't work, had a couple m&p pistols that didn't work, but no Glocks that didn't work (out of nine). Why does the FBI issue Glock? Cost is probably one factor... But, saying it's the only factor when they issue Springfield Professionals to regional SWAT is not correct. They just don't tend to publicly annOunce that a company's pistol doesn't meet their standards.
9MM Wins - Thanks FBI
Very true. I talked to a state trooper once that stated his department issued the S&W M&P rifles and pistols because they were a package deal that couldn't be turned down... That department now carries Glock pistols as well... Kept the M&P rifles, though.
Very true. I talked to a state trooper once that stated his department issued the S&W M&P rifles and pistols because they were a package deal that couldn't be turned down... That department now carries Glock pistols as well... Kept the M&P rifles, though.
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That is a very good point. I hope you don't think I meant that cost is the only factor (sometimes in the military it seems that way). I love Glock. I have one and hope to get another shortly. Love them had a few pistols and always kept my Glock. I was only brining up the point that Glock was the one company that figured out a way to make a dead reliable firearm that also was extremely affordable.
I didn't. It's Just a good thing to remind folds of. To get a major contract like the FBI, all the contenders are going to bottom out their prices.
+ 1 brother ...... you said alot and you are RIGHT. I would like to add LE's need to have their rifles ready and the patrol rifle should be the first option if possible.
TEN RULES OF A GUNFIGHT
1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two.
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice.
3. Only hits count.
4. If your shooting stance is good and you are comfortable, you 're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.
5. Keep shooting until the threat no longer exists; then stay sharp until the police arrive.
6. If you can choose what to bring to a gun fight, bring a long gun (RIFLE) with a light, and a friend with a long gun with a light (RIFLE).
7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of calibre, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
8. If you are not shooting you should be reloading or running to cover.
9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependant on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.
10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty and you are out of ammo.
I've preached these ten rules for years. I've also found using simunitions (paint ball bullets) #9 gets most police officers killed and through my own experience my inner calm was one of the most important aspects of the gun fight. Just sayin'.
1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two.
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice.
3. Only hits count.
4. If your shooting stance is good and you are comfortable, you 're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.
5. Keep shooting until the threat no longer exists; then stay sharp until the police arrive.
6. If you can choose what to bring to a gun fight, bring a long gun (RIFLE) with a light, and a friend with a long gun with a light (RIFLE).
7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of calibre, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
8. If you are not shooting you should be reloading or running to cover.
9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependant on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.
10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty and you are out of ammo.
I've preached these ten rules for years. I've also found using simunitions (paint ball bullets) #9 gets most police officers killed and through my own experience my inner calm was one of the most important aspects of the gun fight. Just sayin'.
Can you expand on this some sir? What you mean it got them killed? I thought the whole purpose of simunitions was it didnt kill you when you got shot by it?
Lmao those 1811's sure are scary out on the street so I don't know where the hell you get your ideas from. I went and arrested a bank robber with some of the task force members and an 18 year FBI veteran was quick to ask if they could cuff the suspect and was excited as can be when we said sure why not. When we shot them the WTF look we were told, "I've never actually handcuffed anyone before. " This was after the other super high speed FBI agents that were supposed to be blocking the street on the outer perimeter got so excited that they blocked us (the arrest team) from getting down the street nearly blowing the operation. They may have the budget for training but most of them should stay behind their desks so nobody gets hurt when real lives are at stake.
BTW DHS buys a ton of ammo because of the billion different agencies that fall under the DHS umbrella. HSI/ICE, CBP, Coast Guard, Secret Service, TSA (Includes Air Marshalls) and at least 18 other different alphabet agencies. Not because they shoot that much more than any other form of LE.
I've met a lot of federal LEO officers and agents in my time and most of them are good people and are very skilled investigators. Very few are worth a damn on the street when everything goes to shit and if they are around (which is not often) most will be easily identified by the deer in the headlights look on their faces while the local coppers run in and take care of business. The only exception to this is the tactical teams but they are usually made up of a lot of former Special Operations types and are not your average agents.
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You are correct by saying simunitions doesn't kill you when getting shot in the literal meaning but for training purposes we look at where the paint bullet struck the officer to determine if it would have been a fatal wound. Those officers who are able to stay calm enough to fire multiple accurate rounds will win the simunition scenario compared to the officer who fires wildly with no front sight focus and trigger control. Simunitions = very good training.
That's a prime example of why people need to train under pressure.
Military - we ran 2 miles and had 2 minute sto load and fire for accuracy (Combat Pistol team).
When I was in LE I just practiced, and practiced. But procedures and laws and juries always make you second guess, in this case he WOULD have been fully justified in unloading on this guy as he exited the vehicle the 2nd time.
But now a state patrolman is being hung in the media for doing the same thing when the g uy went for his ID/License...
Tough call but definitely s hould have gotten more shots on target
RIP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kyle_Dinkheller
Bullet construction came up about 10 years ago with my agency. We are allowed by policy to carry just about any pistol on duty that we want, as long as it is from a reputable manufacturer. Caliber has to be 9mm, 40/10mm, 45 in autos - agency provides the duty ammo to be carried.
Issued ammo at the time was Winchester Ranger. During investigations into police involved shootings, it was discovered that the 9mm offering was shedding its jacket and not expanding like it was intended to. This was rectified by switching to Speer Gold Dot, which has jacket bonded to the inner slug. So far, results have been good....
I preferred to carry a Springfield TRP. It went nicely with the Benelli M1 and M-16 that I was issued (procured through an EVIL program that obtained military weapons from DOD).
Issued ammo at the time was Winchester Ranger. During investigations into police involved shootings, it was discovered that the 9mm offering was shedding its jacket and not expanding like it was intended to. This was rectified by switching to Speer Gold Dot, which has jacket bonded to the inner slug. So far, results have been good....
I preferred to carry a Springfield TRP. It went nicely with the Benelli M1 and M-16 that I was issued (procured through an EVIL program that obtained military weapons from DOD).
The best handgun is the one you are proficient with and the one you have with you. And hopefully it is the same pistol. Arguing calibers is for amateurs.
I fail to understand why simple physics cannot be applied. The 2 most important factors are and always will be shot placement and penetration. Let's all throw away our .40's, .45's and 10's because the FBI had an epiphany that they can unload their 17rds of 9mm into a target a tenth of a second faster than I can unload 15 rds of .40. Due to recoil sensitivity I can see where this debate has some merit. Aside from that what person stands there and lets you shoot them? The chances of a moving target and off-angle shot are the reality which increases the likelihood of having to penetrate bone and muscle. Heavier bullets just do a better job.
I'm sure hunters are familiar with this. Heavy bullets for caliber is a good start but larger diameter, heavier bullets are better. A 150 gr .270 bullet has a sectional density of .279 which is actually higher than a 270 gr 375 bullet which has a sd of .274. Of these 2 loads I'm sure 100% of hunters would pick the .375 if going brown bear hunting given the fact that the heavier 270 gr bullet smashes through bone. And before someone says well why not use a .375 for hunting deer then? Deer most of the time aren't shooting back, quartering away or ducking behind cover so a carefully aimed shot on an unsuspecting animal does not require the extra advantage...in most cases.
I get it, humans are not bears or deer but physically they are still constructed of muscle and bone and gel tests just don't emulate this enough. Shoot what you want but 9mm is by no means the final answer in the debate. I'll take a 180 gr .40 over a 115 gr 9mm every day for reasons stated.
I'm sure hunters are familiar with this. Heavy bullets for caliber is a good start but larger diameter, heavier bullets are better. A 150 gr .270 bullet has a sectional density of .279 which is actually higher than a 270 gr 375 bullet which has a sd of .274. Of these 2 loads I'm sure 100% of hunters would pick the .375 if going brown bear hunting given the fact that the heavier 270 gr bullet smashes through bone. And before someone says well why not use a .375 for hunting deer then? Deer most of the time aren't shooting back, quartering away or ducking behind cover so a carefully aimed shot on an unsuspecting animal does not require the extra advantage...in most cases.
I get it, humans are not bears or deer but physically they are still constructed of muscle and bone and gel tests just don't emulate this enough. Shoot what you want but 9mm is by no means the final answer in the debate. I'll take a 180 gr .40 over a 115 gr 9mm every day for reasons stated.
The whole point of this is that they DID allow science a seat at the table, and considered the totality of circumstances against the use case for an issued, law enforcement duty firearm.
Recoil, controllability, magazine and loadout capacity, bullet selection, terminal performance.
If you agree that shot placement is the most important thing, then you have to consider that physics is involved way before the bullet strikes the target. The advantage they demonstrated with actual shooters placing better shots with the 9mm versus the other calibers, as well as the terminal performance based on bullet selection. These are all things that can be observed and measured.
Wasn't the .40S&W the FBI's creation in the first place? It lends further credibility to the results in my opinion because their analysis causes them to depart from their own baby. Yeah, they are all accountants and lawyers but they do get the science right.
The biggest thing in there for me was the myth-bust of "stopping power." Tasers have "stopping power." Handguns don't.
Recoil, controllability, magazine and loadout capacity, bullet selection, terminal performance.
If you agree that shot placement is the most important thing, then you have to consider that physics is involved way before the bullet strikes the target. The advantage they demonstrated with actual shooters placing better shots with the 9mm versus the other calibers, as well as the terminal performance based on bullet selection. These are all things that can be observed and measured.
Wasn't the .40S&W the FBI's creation in the first place? It lends further credibility to the results in my opinion because their analysis causes them to depart from their own baby. Yeah, they are all accountants and lawyers but they do get the science right.
The biggest thing in there for me was the myth-bust of "stopping power." Tasers have "stopping power." Handguns don't.
A 147 grain 9mm will perform similar on game to a 180 grain 40. Purposefully comparing a 115 grain 9mm to a 180 grain 40 is intellectual dishonest
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That's your opinion and your entitled to it. But I don't know too many people that carry 147 gr 9mm for woods protection, I do know a shit ton that carry 180-200 gr 40/10mm though.
Neither the 40 or the 9mm is ideal for woods carry. I carry a 10mm in the woods and I live around some of the biggest bear in the country. However its not an opinion that 180 grain 40 sw JHP's perform about the same as 147 grain 9mm jhp bullets assuming a similar design is used. The difference is about .05 to .10 in expansion. Penetration is the same give or take an inch. That is fact not opinion. I also know of a shooting incident where a fisherman on the Kenai saved his friend form a brown bear by killing it with a 9mm pistol.
Pat
Pat
This is why I cringe at involving myself in these threads. Then why do you carry a 10mm and not a 9?
Lol guns are tools different ones for different jobs. What you are saying is like saying why don't I use a 9mm for long range rifle shooting. Basically a stupid statement. The fact is both the 40sw and the 9mm are poor choices for woods carry. Another fact is what you need in a self defense situation against an animal is different in many ways vs a gun fight with a human. Chose what you want and train with it. I have carried ever semi auto service caliber pretty much in the last 15 years as a LEO. Frankly caliber does not matter all that much.
Pat
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I have a 9mm hk p30L and a hk usp compact 40. I much prefer the uspc 40 even though the p30L fits my hand better. I don't like 40 in any other handgun other than hk. In other makers I do find it to be snappy. I like both calibers, I don't really see why there is such fierce love and hate between them
Lol, no you said it. You made all the comparisons to advocate the 147 gr 9mm as being just as effective on game as the 180 gr 40/10mm and then admitted you carried a 10mm. I was comfortable with my reasons for carrying a 10mm but apparently your argument in favor of the 9 is only for the sake of arguing.
If you feel handgun caliber doesn't matter much then let's all adopt the .380...after all it's a 9mm short.
If you feel handgun caliber doesn't matter much then let's all adopt the .380...after all it's a 9mm short.
Look hard enough and you can find "experts" to support virtually any choice. Some folks change carry guns more often than their underwear. Usually right after some government agency releases the results of a study.
What I find amusing is that all the 9mm fans will tell you it's a waste of time to use a .40/.45 because you can put more 9mm rds on target more accurately yet you will never see them downsize to a .32 or .380 for the same reason. Excluding the advantage of concealability.
I have a .40 and 9mm slide for my full size USP. I'm good with 9, with .40 I could shoot at the ground and miss.
Seriously that is your argument. Not a very well thought out one and easy to counter. The .32 and .380 do not meet minimum penetration standards with expanding bullets and with FMJ bullets they leave very narrow small wound channels. The difference between a .380 and a 9mm is huge. The difference between a .40 and a 9mm is slight. Also most .380's and .32's kick more because they are blow back operated with a few exceptions. Conversley why don't all big bore fans up grade to a 50AE, 45 super, 460 Roland, etc if more is always better. The truth is in all things there is a balance. Most of the big bore fans arguments mike make sense if we were limited to single shot pistols. But we aren't.
Pat
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If I were stuck with FMJ ammo I would want a larger bore as well but I am not.
Pat
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