A Couple of Senich/Hathcock Questions

[pitspitr]

I just finished reading Senich's One Round War. On page 361, the last full paragraph Senich quotes RTE Repairman Sgt. William Donovan as saying that Hathcock's rifle was a sporter style. Is that right? If that's the case It wouldn't have had an Unertl scope either, right?

Also, Now that I've finished this one as well as his Complete Book of US Sniping, What would be your recommendations for the next book to read

 

[pmclaine]

Sporter probably references the stock profile.

Guessing the barrel was heavier profile with Unertl blocks installed.

See often posted photo of USMC Lance Corporal in the sitting position with knee raised sighting through the Unertl in VN.

 

[fdkay]

An Official Journal Of The NRA | The Military Model 70

The Model 70 never saw significant use by the U.S. military.

www.americanrifleman.org

 

[Random Guy]

On page 361, the last full paragraph Senich quotes RTE Repairman Sgt. William Donovan as saying that Hathcock's rifle was a sporter style. Is that right? If that's the case It wouldn't have had an Unertl scope either, right?

I suspect that description was confusing. According to Major Jim Land, Hathcock's rifle used a *sporter* style stock (enlarged in the barrel channel) and a medium-heavy barrel. The lower rifle in this pic is reportedly what Hathcock carried, or very similar to it. He apparently preferred the lighter weight of the Sporter stock vs the heavier Target stock, at least that is my understanding. The USMC had both styles, as noted in Senich's books/pics.

Re pic #2, there were some Sporter M70 'recreational' rifles w/ Sporter style barrels (skinny with a front sight) that were outfitted with cheap Japanese 3-9x scopes bought in the PX on Okinawa, but it doesn't appear that was what Hathcock used. Re pic #3, there were even a few Sporter M70s with the military 2.2X M84 scopes used on an ad hoc basis in Vietnam. My guess these were Army rifles, but the history is not very clear.

 

[pitspitr]

Sporter probably references the stock profile.

You're probably right and that was my initial impression as well, until I read the next to last sentence in the paragraph.
"The Model 70 was probably a Special Services hunting rifle at one time."
Would you use a heavy barrel, target scoped rifle for hunting?

 

[pmclaine]

You're probably right and that was my initial impression as well, until I read the next to last sentence in the paragraph.
"The Model 70 was probably a Special Services hunting rifle at one time."
Would you use a heavy barrel, target scoped rifle for hunting?

@Random Guy 's answer is as good as any.

Many of the WWII purchase guns went to moral and welfare to be signed out for recreation....few of those seemed to have made it into combat operations......I think the last in RGs post is one that was "repatriated" by the 101st Airborne from a dead NVA. I dont know if the army Win 70s were gifted to them from the USMC stockpile.

Other of the USMC purchase went to the rifle teams where they were barreled appropriately and shot in competition....Douglas manufactured replacement barrels. Im guessing some of the Model 70 targets the USMC had on hand may have been set into a Sporter stock as per user preference and they would have had the heavier Win barrel.

Im also guessing that as the USMC was buying these rifles from Win as all production was being stopped for civilian sales the assortment of barreled actions fitted to wood stocks could have been eclectic....they were getting what they had out the door.

Speculation on my part.

@cplnorton has studied this some and has been to NARA and found lots of source info.


And regards would I use a heavy barrel, target scope for hunting......well I dont hunt but not much of what I do makes sense....

 

[Lange Carabine]

Would you use a heavy barrel, target scoped rifle for hunting?

Absolutely.

 

[pitspitr]

Ok, fair enough and I guess I have too.

Now as for the second part of my questions, any suggestions as for sniping books I should read next?

 

[deltawiskey]

The Death from Afar series by Chandler is very informative reading...
DW

 

[Skunk]

464 yards.

 

[deltawiskey]

464 yards. View attachment 7754954

Nice buck, Great shot, Grail Rifle!!
DW

 

[pmclaine]

464 yards. View attachment 7754954

That big boy has bragging rights in deer heaven......some spike point killed by a Savage will never feel the ecstasy of death from a smear.

 

[Lange Carabine]

Theres also Silent Warrior, the sequel to Marine Sniper, and
A Snipers Journey..
13 Cent Killers..
Dead Center....
Dear Mom...
and A Sniper in Arizona Territory, to name a few.

 

[deltawiskey]

Theres also Silent Warrior, the sequel to Marine Sniper, and
A Snipers Journey..
13 Cent Killers..
Dead Center....
Dear Mom...
and A Sniper in Arizona Territory, to name a few.

Dead Center is a really great book!
DW

 

[pitspitr]

Thanks Guys! There's several on the list that I wasn't aware of.
Yes, I really enjoyed Marine Sniper and Silent Warrior. I've even re-read Marine Sniper

 

[j-huskey]

I just finished reading Senich's One Round War. On page 361, the last full paragraph Senich quotes RTE Repairman Sgt. William Donovan as saying that Hathcock's rifle was a sporter style. Is that right? If that's the case It wouldn't have had an Unertl scope either, right?

The early sporters were drilled and tapped, on their skinny barrels for unertl rtb scopes. Right in front of the knot where the barrel lug screw went.
At some point, I will photograph my 1937 sporter's drilled and tapped barrel.
In my short life, I have seen many such as this. And wearing unertls, feckers, and redfield.
And it has always been my understanding that Gunnys first rifle was a sporter. Whose barrel rusted out from the inside, becoming unserviceable. This from him at a gunshow many many years ago.

Photo to follow of the D/T..
Added...

Yes, it wears a modern scope, it still gets out to kill a pig or so, ...

 

[j-huskey]

Would you use a heavy barrel, target scoped rifle for hunting?

Yes...

Why not, I carried them for 16 years, work related...

They definitely have their place. Most definitely.

Would I want to carry one in the mountains, or western plains, hell no...

But, I have carried them in both places b4. Back when I was young and dumber.

 

[j-huskey]

And said topic here,
Hunting with these was soooo common back in the day...

 

[pitspitr]

Would you use a heavy barrel, target scoped rifle for hunting?

Yeah, in retrospect that was really a dumb question, after several of you posted I stopped and thought about it and realized that I had myself. For several years my primary deer rifle was a long barreled 1874 Sharps replica with an RHO scope on it. The really cool part of my dumb question was getting to see some of your trophies taken with them. So that's an up side

 

[sandwarrior]

The early sporters were drilled and tapped, on their skinny barrels for unertl rtb scopes. Right in front of the knot where the barrel lug screw went.
At some point, I will photograph my 1937 sporter's drilled and tapped barrel.
In my short life, I have seen many such as this. And wearing unertls, feckers, and redfield.
And it has always been my understanding that Gunnys first rifle was a sporter. Whose barrel rusted out from the inside, becoming unserviceable. This from him at a gunshow many many years ago.

Photo to follow of the D/T..
Added...
View attachment 7756337
View attachment 7756341

Yes, it wears a modern scope, it still gets out to kill a pig or so, ...

Nice Tigers. Another subject, but interesting to know who all wore them.

 

[j-huskey]

Nice Tigers. Another subject, but interesting to know who all wore them.

Hathcock wore them on his first tour.....
And no, I don't have any that will fit you....

But not the 2nd.

The above mention of Hill 55....
Hathcock spotter, Ron McAbee... Ronald C. .....

And then there is Ronald Jack McAbee.... Ronald J....

Both on hill 55, w Gunny... Ronald J a sniper as well....

Used to get their shit all fouled up in mail, clothes, and once in some records....

Gunny did two tours.
Don't know about Ronald C.
Ronald J. did two tours, both as a sniper, like Gunny.
Ronald J wore greens his first tour where Gunny wore Tigers.
Ronald J and Gunny both wore greens and erdls on their 2nd tour.

Gunny left RVN going to a hospital.
Ronald J left RVN going to Africa, Europe, Canada, and a few other places, before ending up back in Alabama where he kinda originated...

Ronald J spends a lot of time in my hood.... stories get told.

He had a brother who retired from the crotch as a general (Jerry). Dad was in crotch too.

Stories do get told...
Interesting world we live in.

 

[buffalowinter]

Father-in-Law's A team with Mike Force in Vietnam. Some things never change...note the joker with the tiger's tail behind the team leader. Had to post a guard on him to keep the 'yards from stealing the magic bits.

 

[ChanceDoane]

 

[ChanceDoane]

Which Ron McAbee is this with Carlos in the picture?

 

[j-huskey]

Ronald C

 

[ChanceDoane]

Ronald C

Thanks

 

[cplnorton]

I'm going to be a little vague, because I might some day right a book on this. But I found the documents on the Model 70 snipers for the Marines and the Army. I can document both sides and if you guys have questions, I will answer them as long as I don't give away too much info that is new.
But in a nut shell, the books say the Marines bought 373 Model 70's in 1942 from those they made snipers. But at the Archives I found the order in 1944 for the Marines to get rid of all of those 373 Model 70 sporter models. To sell them in PX's and give them away.

There is a second order by the Marines in 1942 that none of the books know of. It was right under a 100 (I'm being vague about the number and style, but I have the records on them) these were a mix of target and custom Model 70's. I honestly believe it's likely the Vietnam snipers pictured came from this second lot for various other reason.

Also the Marines did not stop getting Model 70's in 1942, they started to buy them again once WWII was over. In the 1950's, the Marines had thousands of model 70's. But these have later features in traits that the NAM rifles do not show. So that is why I do believe they came form the 2nd lot in 1942, as the ones made post WWII had different traits that you can see in the pics, so you can tell it wasn't those.

I think everyone has a misunderstanding how many Marine Model 70 snipers there were. There were only a few dozen. It's nothing like what you think they made. I have the exact number shipped to NAM and it's barely over 50. So these rifles were extremely rare.

There is no written evidence they bought extra rifles or used commercial rifles, or anything else you see in the books. There is one pic of a Marine using a standard hunting configuration M70 in NAM early on. But this type of rifle is not in the official docs. If there was any use of these types of rifles, they were one off's and nothing official was recorded.

Most of the names I see in books as instrumental in the Vietnam Sniper program, I do not in anyway see their names involved in these programs. So what that all means, when the records show different than what these guys make claims of, I do not know. Plus I don't want to get involved in that because I think when this comes to light it will be a hornets nest. I think this is why so much that is in the books does not show up in the official records.

The Army only had a little over 3 dozen Model 70 snipers. I have the records. They bought them brand new and shipped them overseas with a very name brand commercial scope (I'm being vague on purpose again, I know what they shipped with). But anyways these US purchased hunting scopes did not last in Vietnam at all and were replaced by M84's.

In total only around a 100 Model 70's were used by both the Marines and Army in Vietnam as snipers, and only the first couple years. The programs are very detailed, and really nothing like what the books say.

I hope this helps clear it up some. It was just a very small amount of rifles, and the books have missed a lot of the sniper rifles of the war that were much more common.

 

[j-huskey]

Senich isn't the authority he claimed to be.
Senich used a lot of Sgt. Gerald (Old Hook) Boutin's papers from when Hook was w 9th ID, building M21's, and doing MTT's under Lones Wigger.
Senich stole Hook's papers. Hook was madder than hell for 20 years over that shit. Senich wigged some of it, that Hooks papers would Un wig. Hooks dead now.

Chandler was purely into building his rep, going for $, after his lackluster career, and would embellish like a gypsy con man...
I remember him dog cussing me once, once only..
(That shit had to do with an article in "the accurate rifle", editor Dave Brennan, written by "Norm", and I called BS, Brennan told "Norm", who cursed me, and I still have Rocky's written apology... kinda wish I'd never said shit to Brennan, because 25 years later, doesn't mean shit, just a bad taste left...)

I will look forward to living long enough to read Cpl. Norton book.

 

[Flint62a1]

Please get busy writing that book....I can't wait to read it!!

 

[pitspitr]

Please do. I’ll buy it.

I will look forward to living long enough to read Cpl. Norton book.

+1!

 

[Average guy]

Write the book. It would great to see official records and put the rumors to rest.

 

[PerryJeff]

Check out Forgotten Weapons on youtube they have the Winchester 70 rifle with the Unertl.
Capt. Lands rifle when it went up for sale 5 years ago.