A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

[tomirwin]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

Formula350SD

Just for your information Accuracy International of North America, Inc. is a US company. We have 4 employees, 3 US, including myself and a Canadian and are looking for another employee who is most likely to be US. Our major subcontractor who makes our AICS kits is a US, woman owned company with 12 US employees. We have other US subcontractors, all with US employees. We use components from the UK for molded parts where the tooling is expensive and for proprietary parts like hinges and magazines. Small components like screws, pins, springs etc. are supplied from the UK because we buy them in bulk to our specification and the treatment is the major differentiator. We either cannot get those parts with the same treatment or the price is sky high.
We have been making AICS kits in the USA for nearly 6 years and we are in the process of setting up rifle assembly in the USA where we will be procuring more components within the USA.
I know we had a difference of opinion in 1812 but for a very long time the US and UK have had a very special relationship. There was even a movie recently with that title. I do not think the supply chain will dry up anytime soon.

So, do you select a US company, according to your definition, or would you not rather our troops has the best? I think Accuracy International covers both!

Tom Irwin
Accuracy International

 

[GunKnowledge]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If your life depends on the quality of the equipment you carry and it's ability to do the job right every time you wouldn't give a flying f**k where it comes from....only that it performs and lasts.
</div></div>

Speak for yourself a$$hole, you don't represent all of us. I'm in the Army and I do give a flying f(_)ck.

I believe that we should source American-made AND American-owned products if we have them. If for some reason an American product doesn't exist that is acceptable, fine, buy what's out there.

I'm glad some of the AI stuff is made here in our country, but I wish it was an American company. We need to keep the wages AND profits here.

Toyotas made in Indiana ARE NOT AMERICAN CARS.

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

Attempting to tread very carefuly the politics prohibition here...

To address the other criticism, to whit that you feel that recently there is a mandated trend that our equipment has to come from abroad...

You'd be right.

It did not start in congress.
It did not start in the white house.
It did not start with the joint chiefs.

It started in the board rooms of American corporations. To under cut each other in bids, they started manufacturing non-core items for contracts overseas. You can squeeze so much from your bid for something from india. So much from china. So much from taiwan. So much from japan.

You source these external components and then find a key congressman whose support you need, or use a local plant you already have to sell the invented/made [ahem: assembled] in USA story.

There is a problem with this story: the problem of experience.

You can start this story because the expertise is all on shore. For weapons systems. For assemblies. For components. You send specifications, you receive back parts. You know what happens when others deal with the parts for so long? They learn things.

They learn how to efficiently manufacture laser lenses, nutation servos, and aluminum housings. There are 100 other parts you need for a scanning laser guidance system but you know what? You dont have people who are as expert or have as recent experience as the people actually making the things.

They come up with new ides. You start putting those new ideas in contracts.

Meanwhile in the US your margins are under pressure. You want to win business volume to show shareholder growth but there is increasing competition in the market place and the cost of winning the contract in the first place has gone up. Significantly. Plus the cost of failed contracts you did not win are each expensive as well and need to be 'covered' by the stuff you do win.

What do you do?

You mix in more low-cost, high-margin sources. Suddenly The lense assembly is outsourced elsewhere, the explosives are able to be mixed in some 2nd rate eastern european factor paying dimes on the dollar in labor costs compared to the equivalent "skilled" US resources.

The only thing you are still doing on shore is putting sub-assemblies together in a factory where your local senator can deliver speeches and then getting on conference call to your India R&D and QA centers which are 3 times bigger and still half the cost of your US based "cleared" staff.

Years later you realize that to not participate in this scheme puts you at "competitive disadvantage" in the market place. E.g. without these foreign vendors for parts, for manufacturing, for raw materials, you cannot possibly win against people who are using them. Because at the end of the day, the shareholders, and the contract approvers are going to hold your bid up to the light - right next to the guy who DID use these people.

He is promising the same stuff, the same capability from his firm, or even a tenth less than your capability. But can deliver at higher scale, even accounting for QA drops, at half the cost.

The macro view? Contract after contract appears to go to "the other guys".

Don't blame the president. Blame the shareholders. Blame the executives. Blame globalization.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Formula350SD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> to flat out say you don't care where our government procures it's equipment from is a mind bending statement to me.
</div></div>

1) Just to clarify...your government is not my government

2) As othes have said, much of the AI stock chosen by the USN are manufacturered (presumably under licence) in the US.

3)As others have said, if your life is on the line what is important is having kit that is the best - the niceties of supply chain idealogies, commercial protectionism and political dogma are pretty much irrelevant.

4) As others have said, the US is not alone in having all the clever people - apart from AX chassis, go check out who designed the armour used on the Abrams, or it's rifled or smoothbore armament....

It's like giving someone a job....would you rather have the best man for the job or the guy just doing his best?

The idea of any economy being self-sufficient in this day and age is, at best, anachronistic.

 

[poison123]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

Wow this thread has sped off the rails pretty damn well.

Congrats to AI for making a killer system!

 

[Bazgab]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

Congratulations AI!

About the drama, personally I buy American when I can and when it is a competitive product, but it is lower on my list of purchasing requirements. If I was someone that used the MK13 operationally I would definitely want the best chassis for it that is available and would not care where it came from. I think the Navy got it right with choosing the AX chassis.

 

[gugubica]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomirwin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and are looking for another employee who is most likely to be US. </div></div>

Tom, I am available, feel free to PM me.

 

[thethumper]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

I'm sorry. I thought that this post having to do with bolt action rifles would be information about the weapon. Silly me, it seems that it has to do with other topics.

 

[lw8]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Formula350SD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Formula350SD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who cares where they get it, as long as its the best, baddest-ass equipment making it to the theater of combat.

God bless our NSW folks. </div></div>

I for one think this is a horrible statement to make... I'm a firm believer that every single piece of equipment our government buys, for whatever reason, should be manufactured inside the United States. I don't care if it's a washer, some missile guidance system, or a staff car if it isn't made here our tax dollars shouldn't be spent purchasing it. </div></div>

Personally I don't believe in playing politics with peoples' lives.

If your life depends on the quality of the equipment you carry and it's ability to do the job right every time you wouldn't give a flying f**k where it comes from....only that it performs and lasts.

AI have provided products that have proven this ability in many theaters of operation over a significant period of time in many different environments.

Be grateful that there are guys out there making decisions that still believe in furnishing your fighting forces with the best equipment money can buy....rather than what the accountants tell them they can have! </div></div>

You mean to tell me there isn't an American company that could produce just as high a quality a piece of equipment? Do you also mean to say that the screws, skins, and minor parts that they use from England couldn't be manufactured here?

Do you also mean to say that if say the Russians (arbitrarily chosen country) all the sudden started pumping out the best weapon systems we should commit to buying everything from them?

What happens if there is a major conflict and the supply chain goes belly up? Then where are you?

I swear there has been a presidential executive order, or an act by our congress that mandates our equipment come from within to prevent the exact scenario I stated above from happening, but I can't seem to find it. (I've been looking for over 2 hours)

I never made any negative comments about AI or their products, but to flat out say you don't care where our government procures it's equipment from is a mind bending statement to me.





</div></div>


Your plan kills innovation because American companies no longer have to compete and therefore can produce a crappy product that we still have to buy in order to comply with the Berry Ammendment.

The buy America act sux...bad.

 

[sr15match]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

Wow, this turned into a mess in a hurry.

I had the pleasure of meeting with Mr Irwin today, checked out the product (AICS & AX chassis) being made right here in the US, got the full rundown on the the business and walked away more than impressed.

So tell me, what's the differense in the name on the door or product. AINA is an American company, just because it has AI in the name does it mean it's any less American? Contracts are won & loss but I view it as changing requirements and competition that in turn makes companies design better products and those improved products are what win. I could care less if they come from Billy - Bobs machine works or one of the big name players in the business. So long as the best product wins out for the required application.

 

[jasonk]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

AI = Winning!

Love my AX, glad to see the AX chassis becoming available soon as I need my 223 to have one.

 

[Formula350SD]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

I think you all need to re read what I said.. I in no way am being critical of AI nor had I been in any of my posts. I just so happened to be of the opinion that the people of a nation as tax payers should care about what there governments spend money on. Am I upset that we spend money on AI products? Of course not, but to hear someone say they don't care at all trips my trigger.

I'm being critical of the globalization process as a whole which I firmly believe is a backwards process.

Example.

Silicon from the United States gets exported to China to make microchips that were designed here only to be shipped back here in massive quantities. All so that the company can save a few cents a unit. Meanwhile in the process of doing so you exponentially increase the amount of energy required in the process by having to ship the shit across the pacific and back for no reason.

Efficiency is good for business a good example of that historically would be Fords model T. All steel parts of the model T were made in the same facility from raw materials but the wheels were wood. Ford built a wheel plant in upper Michigan because that where he could get lumber in an effort to eliminate having to ship raw materials.

Those are extreme examples, but I think my point is clear.

So to sum it up.

Thumbs up to AI for making high quality products and winning the contract.

Thumbs down to people who don't care what their tax dollars are used for, corporate greed, and the hyper rich business elite who've spent the last 3 decades boxing up American factories and shipping them overseas...

End Rant

 

[JeffLebowski]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

I'll just bet you're unionized. Did you vote like your union told you to vote - for Obama?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Formula350SD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think you all need to re read what I said.. I in no way am being critical of AI nor had I been in any of my posts. I just so happened to be of the opinion that the people of a nation as tax payers should care about what there governments spend money on. Am I upset that we spend money on AI products? Of course not, but to hear someone say they don't care at all trips my trigger.

I'm being critical of the globalization process as a whole which I firmly believe is a backwards process.

Example.

Silicon from the United States gets exported to China to make microchips that were designed here only to be shipped back here in massive quantities. All so that the company can save a few cents a unit. Meanwhile in the process of doing so you exponentially increase the amount of energy required in the process by having to ship the shit across the pacific and back for no reason.

Efficiency is good for business a good example of that historically would be Fords model T. All steel parts of the model T were made in the same facility from raw materials but the wheels were wood. Ford built a wheel plant in upper Michigan because that where he could get lumber in an effort to eliminate having to ship raw materials.

Those are extreme examples, but I think my point is clear.

So to sum it up.

Thumbs up to AI for making high quality products and winning the contract.

Thumbs down to people who don't care what their tax dollars are used for, corporate greed, and the hyper rich business elite who've spent the last 3 decades boxing up American factories and shipping them overseas...

End Rant


</div></div>

 

[dogman]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

So instead of starting your own anti-globalization thread, you come shit on the AI thread?

Last time I checked, England was still a close ally of the US (some of their liberal douchebaggery notwithstanding).

 

[tomirwin]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

I had some other thoughts on the subject of positively impacting the US economy. I think we might have added more US jobs than the government; note I did not say Obama. Our employees and our subcontractors employees all pay US taxes. In order to do this we, AI, a UK company, have invested heavily in AINA, a US company, by adding employees and facilities in Fredericksburg
Tom Irwin
Accuracy International

 

[winxp_man]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

Like Rob01 said this thread will go to shit! Hahahaha





Aron-

 

[Rob01]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

Winxp, I can see the future! Or maybe I have just been on this board too long

LOL

Tom don't waste your breath. I tried to explain how many US citizens/tax payers S&B had working for them here in the states and the people who are dug in on the "only American products" side don't care.

Like the S&B contract, this probably fell under the buy American Clause, but there are a handful of countries which are exempt, these are our closest allies and consists of:

Australia
Belgium
Canada
Denmark
Federal Republic of Germany
Finland
France
Greece
Israel
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Norway
Portugal
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Turkey
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

 

[Northman]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

I`m just interested in finding out where can one buy this chassis? And price?

Even though Im googling, I can`t find that information.

 

[Bazgab]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Northman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I`m just interested in finding out where can one buy this chassis? And price?

Even though Im googling, I can`t find that information. </div></div>

Here you go:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2660233&nt=2&page=1

They say late July in the first post but they are still waiting for shipments of the chassis, shouldn't be too much longer.

 

[Northman]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

Seems they only comes as a folder...

Folders are a No-No where I live.. so I guess I wont be getting a AX chassis. Bummer

 

[Bazgab]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Northman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems they only comes as a folder...

Folders are a No-No where I live.. so I guess I wont be getting a AX chassis. Bummer </div></div>

Pretty sure there will be a non folder but you would have to wait longer.

 

[Rob01]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Northman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems they only comes as a folder...

Folders are a No-No where I live.. so I guess I wont be getting a AX chassis. Bummer</div></div>

Even in a bolt gun? I know in semi auto collapsible and folders can be a problem but never heard of it in a bolt gun.

 

[Northman]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

After reading some rules on rifles, a folding stock is allowed, as long as the rifle itself is longer then 33" in folded position.

But anyways.. the stock is very expensive. Im in the prosess of ordering 3 rifles now. Cant go to overboard..

 

[poison123]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

These stocks are what around 1-1.2k? No where near very expensive. Another vendor holds that title.

 

[batman292]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

sorry to interrupt the argument, but are they replacing all the stocks or just fitting the newly made ones? If there replacing all the old ones what happens to them?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomirwin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">I know we had a difference of opinion in 1812 but for a very long time the US and UK have had a very special relationship. </span> There was even a movie recently with that title. I do not think the supply chain will dry up anytime soon.

So, do you select a US company, according to your definition, or would you not rather our troops has the best? I think Accuracy International covers both!

Tom Irwin
Accuracy International </div></div>

Best line of the entire thread...

that said, people argue too much, they need to be more level headed like I am... which am glad that Crane is continuing with the AI Chassis. I'm a fan and don't car where they make it.

 

[3fingervic]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Attempting to tread very carefuly the politics prohibition here...

To address the other criticism, to whit that you feel that recently there is a mandated trend that our equipment has to come from abroad...

You'd be right.

It did not start in congress.
It did not start in the white house.
It did not start with the joint chiefs.

It started in the board rooms of American corporations. To under cut each other in bids, they started manufacturing non-core items for contracts overseas. You can squeeze so much from your bid for something from india. So much from china. So much from taiwan. So much from japan.

You source these external components and then find a key congressman whose support you need, or use a local plant you already have to sell the invented/made [ahem: assembled] in USA story.

There is a problem with this story: the problem of experience.

You can start this story because the expertise is all on shore. For weapons systems. For assemblies. For components. You send specifications, you receive back parts. You know what happens when others deal with the parts for so long? They learn things.

They learn how to efficiently manufacture laser lenses, nutation servos, and aluminum housings. There are 100 other parts you need for a scanning laser guidance system but you know what? You dont have people who are as expert or have as recent experience as the people actually making the things.

They come up with new ides. You start putting those new ideas in contracts.

Meanwhile in the US your margins are under pressure. You want to win business volume to show shareholder growth but there is increasing competition in the market place and the cost of winning the contract in the first place has gone up. Significantly. Plus the cost of failed contracts you did not win are each expensive as well and need to be 'covered' by the stuff you do win.

What do you do?

You mix in more low-cost, high-margin sources. Suddenly The lense assembly is outsourced elsewhere, the explosives are able to be mixed in some 2nd rate eastern european factor paying dimes on the dollar in labor costs compared to the equivalent "skilled" US resources.

The only thing you are still doing on shore is putting sub-assemblies together in a factory where your local senator can deliver speeches and then getting on conference call to your India R&D and QA centers which are 3 times bigger and still half the cost of your US based "cleared" staff.

Years later you realize that to not participate in this scheme puts you at "competitive disadvantage" in the market place. E.g. without these foreign vendors for parts, for manufacturing, for raw materials, you cannot possibly win against people who are using them. Because at the end of the day, the shareholders, and the contract approvers are going to hold your bid up to the light - right next to the guy who DID use these people.

He is promising the same stuff, the same capability from his firm, or even a tenth less than your capability. But can deliver at higher scale, even accounting for QA drops, at half the cost.

The macro view? Contract after contract appears to go to "the other guys".

Don't blame the president. Blame the shareholders. Blame the executives. Blame globalization. </div></div>

In my opinion, you just described the down fall of the financial powerhouse that was the U.S. Well done sir. I really doubt that we will ever recover. We are becoming a society of consumers, that don't produce anything. When production stops we will be wondering why we can afford to buy anything. The average US worker will be working for $1 a day and shipping things to China, if they'll buy are cheap crap.

By the way, congrats to AI.

 

[stiller]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

I want to congratulate AI on a win on this contract. No matter how you cut it, many contractors bid, were tested and considered and we have a winner. I am happy to see that the contract went to AI and hopefully the rifles will be back on production. We are delivering about 100 actions in the next month or so, they will most likely be in the new chassis. I look forward to the new Mod for the Mark 13. We should be seeing the best Mark 13 yet. The real winners are the soldiers and the exemplary rifle they will have to do their job with.

 

[steve m]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

this thread is embarrasing in a way.

we live in a global economy folks.

isolationist thinking should of died out 40 years ago....

the excuse that supply lines could be cut should disclude a product is very short sighted. our enemies have the capability of striking the US mainland, WW2 was a while back lads. there are these things called nuclear weapons, ever heard of them? are you going to decline NBC gear for your family because it's made in Germany?? Time for a reality check.

the core NATO and other allies are very much our trading partners and friends. the best friendly made equipment should be made available for our troops.

Congrats to AI, bahumbug to the negative ones, roll your own if it bothers you.

 

[Arbiter]

Re: A I Wins Navy Mk13 Contract Award

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3fingervic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't blame the president. Blame the shareholders. Blame the executives. Blame globalization. </div></div>

In my opinion, you just described the down fall of the financial powerhouse that was the U.S. Well done sir. I really doubt that we will ever recover. We are becoming a society of consumers, that don't produce anything. When production stops we will be wondering why we can afford to buy anything. The average US worker will be working for $1 a day and shipping things to China, if they'll buy are cheap crap.

By the way, congrats to AI. </div></div>

It's popular to claim that "we're a society of consumers that don't produce anything", but the reality is far more complex than such political posturing. We still produce tremendous amounts of complex, high-technology products here in this country, and the US is still home to staggeringly huge levels of food production. Globalization and the overall process of producing larger quantities of goods for lower prices are responsible for the comparative wealth that we enjoy today, period.