A little help identifying components on a “new” gun.

[264win]

I run only mil/mil optics because it does simplify calculations. But we often forget that for decades the best actual snipers used mk 4 scopes with mil reticle and moa turrets.

 

[Jaron3]

But how many of today’s best snipers are running mil/moa? Why? Simplicity and speed.

 

[loveha]

12 clicks don’t equal 12 mils just saying

My bad, I forgot a . to say 1.2

 

[Landon4]

Lol I figure, just don’t want the op to get confused, and 12 mils is a big miss lol

 

[lash]

If what Jaron said is true, you are going to be an irritated student, with a silently agravated instuctor, who may or may not use your scope as a lesson of what not to do.

Reason being, you use your reticle to measure your impact to make a correction, and it's in mils, you then needs to do math and convert that to MOA.
Where if it was in MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA (Reticle/Turrets) you just measure say 12 mils, and move 12 clicks. But now, you needs to figure out how many clicks in MOA is 12 mils.

Jeez, let up on him already. Yes, it’s true that nowadays it is always better if your reticle subtensions match your dial, but it’s not a disaster in a long range class. Any long range class worth its salt has dealt with this hundreds of times and can easily deal with it in the long range class format.

First off, for winds holds, I highly doubt that he’s going to be needing 12 mils of hold. 0-3 is much more likely and that can easily be resolved using the 3.5::1 ratio of MOA::mils (or roughly 0.75 MOA / 0.25 mil). He can show up with a quick conversion card in .25 mil delineations:

• 0.75::0.22
• 1.75::0.5
• 2.5::0.75
• 3.5::1.0
• 4.25::1.25
• 5.0::1.5
• 5.75::1.70
• 7.0::2.0
• 7.5::2.25
• 8.5::2.5
• 9.25::2.75

But like I said, these instructors see this and are prepared. If they are not and find it frustrating, then maybe you took the wrong class at the wrong place.

Here is a simple free converter from MOA to Mils and vice versa:

Convert ' , MOA to mil | minute to angular mils

Different angle units conversion from minute to angular mils. Math figures of ' , MOA and mil measurements conversion charts page. Convert 1 ' , MOA into angular mil or multiple minutes to mil and count the other way around quantities between these two measuring units, how many angular mils -...

www.traditionaloven.com

 

[Downtown]

I showed up at my first class, twenty years ago, with a 700 PSS in .308, a Luepold 3.5-10 Mk4 with M3 knobs, and a un notched Harris Bipod. I was proud of that setup. Same issue, Mildot reticle, MOA turrets. The instructor made it work. I wouldn't do it again, though.

 

[NewsShooter]

I’m a little surprised at the optic one there, would of thought a LE rifle would have better glass unless they pulled the good stuff before it went out the door.

I'm not, local swat team thought my Savage LRP with a harris bipod and a vortex PST was a great set up.

 

[King_beardsly]

My localish guy laughed at my TL3 with a Rzr and then pulled out a AI AX with a S&B. Not sure if it a department issued item but still

 

[Sutherlandsd]

Vortex strike eagle 5-25 in mils would be hard to beat at its price point. If vet or le very good discounts on it to be had. I wouldn’t waste time or money going to a class with the current scope.

 

[lash]

He doesn’t need a new scope to go to the class.

After the class, he’ll have a better idea of what he wants. Then for the $700 +/- range he can do much better than a strike Eagle.

 

[Landon4]

Jeez, let up on him already. Yes, it’s true that nowadays it is always better if your reticle subtensions match your dial, but it’s not a disaster in a long range class. Any long range class worth its salt has dealt with this hundreds of times and can easily deal with it in the long range class format.

First off, for winds holds, I highly doubt that he’s going to be needing 12 mils of hold. 0-3 is much more likely and that can easily be resolved using the 3.5::1 ratio of MOA::mils (or roughly 0.75 MOA / 0.25 mil). He can show up with a quick conversion card in .25 mil delineations:

• 0.75::0.22
• 1.75::0.5
• 2.5::0.75
• 3.5::1.0
• 4.25::1.25
• 5.0::1.5
• 5.75::1.70
• 7.0::2.0
• 7.5::2.25
• 8.5::2.5
• 9.25::2.75

But like I said, these instructors see this and are prepared. If they are not and find it frustrating, then maybe you took the wrong class at the wrong place.

Here is a simple free converter from MOA to Mils and vice versa:

Convert ' , MOA to mil | minute to angular mils

Different angle units conversion from minute to angular mils. Math figures of ' , MOA and mil measurements conversion charts page. Convert 1 ' , MOA into angular mil or multiple minutes to mil and count the other way around quantities between these two measuring units, how many angular mils -...

www.traditionaloven.com

This is good info to have anyway I keep one of those cards in my data book when I go to the range, in fact I used it not to long ago my son and I were at the range and 2 local le swat members were there and I was doing some spotting for them while I was using mils and they were using moa. What else was crazy was that they had never been past 400yds, but in their defense they said most of the time in a real situation they would only be 50-100yds out from the target. They were shooting surgeon actions in ai chassis with 16” barreled suppressed 308’s with nightforce optics, unsure of the model though. I helped them out as best I could to get out to 1000 which one of them made a few hits, I didn’t have my chrono that day so we just did some figuring on mv at shorter ranges and then called his misses at 1000, it was fun though talking with them and hanging out they were good dudes.

 

[shoobe01]

He doesn’t need a new scope to go to the class.

After the class, he’ll have a better idea of what he wants. Then for the $700 +/- range he can do much better than a strike Eagle.

This.

But also email the instructor if you can beforehand. Explain what you have and unless he HATES it drive on but he'll know better what you have to get you working at class, AND to make sure to explain options so you can understand what everyone here is talking about, maybe get hands on time since you'll be in a class full of presumably good options.

 

[Mooseknuckles]

I think I found a little more info on you scope.

Falcon Optics Menace 4.5-18x56mm Tactical Rifle Scope - Sniper Central

Falcon Optics Menace 4.5-18x56mm Tactical Rifle Scope

web.archive.org

 

[Sutherlandsd]

He doesn’t need a new scope to go to the class.

After the class, he’ll have a better idea of what he wants. Then for the $700 +/- range he can do much better than a strike Eagle.

I dunno maybe I value my time more than other people but I don’t see me going to a class with a completely unproven system and a sfp Chinese scope that most likely won’t track for shit. Strike eagle is a cheap scope that you can flip if you outgrow it, I’m guessing going with an unproven sfp Chinese scope is a good recipe for a bad time. Scope is by far the weak link in his system.

 

[264win]

Dude, the Strike eagle is literally a cheap Chinese scope...
As are nearly all scopes in that price range.
The falcon scopes are not the best but have a decent reputation for working.

 

[lash]

I dunno maybe I value my time more than other people but I don’t see me going to a class with a completely unproven system and a sfp Chinese scope that most likely won’t track for shit. Strike eagle is a cheap scope that you can flip if you outgrow it, I’m guessing going with an unproven sfp Chinese scope is a good recipe for a bad time. Scope is by far the weak link in his system.

Maybe you missed the part wherein he mentioned practicing with this system and hitting golf balls at 300 yards on a regular basis. Maybe you missed the part wherein he said that there’s not much time left to buy a new scope, leaving him no time to prove out a new “system”. Maybe you missed the part wherein I stated that there are better inexpensive scopes than the strike Eagle for when he does want to upgrade.

And refresh my memory, where is the strike Eagle manufactured? Edit: never mind, @264win answered this already while I was typing.

 

[bschneiderheinze]

Maybe you missed the part wherein he mentioned practicing with this system and hitting golf balls at 300 yards on a regular basis. Maybe you missed the part wherein he said that there’s not much time left to buy a new scope, leaving him no time to prove out a new “system”. Maybe you missed the part wherein I stated that there are better inexpensive scopes than the strike Eagle for when he does want to upgrade.

And refresh my memory, where is the strike Eagle manufactured? Edit: never mind, @264win answered this already while I was typing.

I’m not saying he needs a strike eagle but I don’t know what your problem is with them I’ve had several other scopes in the price range and got rid of them. The strike eagle has one of the most useable reticles on the market ffp 34mm main tube and the glass isn’t bad either and I’m not comparing it to crap scopes I’m comparing it to high end scopes I use in competition. Maybe you need to put your hands on one. It’s made a good scope for my 22 trainer and if I didn’t have other backups I wouldn’t hesitate to use it for a backup if one of my other scopes went down.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

Maybe you missed the part wherein he mentioned practicing with this system and hitting golf balls at 300 yards on a regular basis. Maybe you missed the part wherein he said that there’s not much time left to buy a new scope, leaving him no time to prove out a new “system”. Maybe you missed the part wherein I stated that there are better inexpensive scopes than the strike Eagle for when he does want to upgrade.

And refresh my memory, where is the strike Eagle manufactured? Edit: never mind, @264win answered this already while I was typing.

i shoot clays and golf balls with my contender also but I wouldn’t take it to a long range class...

300 yards... when did that become long range? It means nothing except his system will hold a zero with nothing manipulated.

falcon scopes were is and are shit scopes... can’t compare it to the chinese vortex that was made this decade.

thenew strike eagle is 95% of my pst gen 2 and I would say a good 90% of my razer gen2 and guess what they all use the same reticle that will make upgrades seamless. If you don’t like it sell

If you spend two days trying to make a turd track your not going to have an enjoyable time nor will anyone else and the instructor for that matter.
If time is short I would reschedule the class because you aren’t prepared and reschedule for when your ready.

at the very least tall target test the falcon to see how fucked up it is.

 

[lash]

I actually don’t have anything specific against them. I own and use a 1-6 sfp Strike Eagle for my AR and it is a great scope for that. However, the OP said that he was prepared to spend around $700 for a scope once he had time to upgrade. I happen to believe that for that money he can get a better scope than the one that was being pushed.

You said yourself that they are a good backup scope. I happen to think that he should spend his money on a decent primary scope. I listed quite a few earlier in this thread.

It’s as simple as that.

 

[lash]

i shoot clays and golf balls with my contender also but I wouldn’t take it to a long range class...

300 yards... when did that become long range? It means nothing except his system will hold a zero with nothing manipulated.

falcon scopes were is and are shit scopes... can’t compare it to the chinese vortex that was made this decade.

thenew strike eagle is 95% of my pst gen 2 and I would say a good 90% of my razer gen2 and guess what they all use the same reticle that will make upgrades seamless. If you don’t like it sell

If you spend two days trying to make a turd track your not going to have an enjoyable time nor will anyone else and the instructor for that matter.
If time is short I would reschedule the class because you aren’t prepared and reschedule for when your ready.

at the very least tall target test the falcon to see how fucked up it is.

Straw man argument. I’m done trying to reason with a rock while you’re selling your scope like it’s the hottest shit since sliced bread.

Oh, and you’re the one that used the words “Chinese scope” like it meant turds. I just pointed out that you are also selling a turd.

 

[Jaron3]

Damn gentlemen. This shouldn’t have turned into a scope bashing thread. The OP simply wanted some info on his new to him setup. We gave him that and then started second guessing his equipment to the point of calling it a garbage scope. That’s not what he was asking for. I would have loved to have his scope a few years ago when I got my first long range gun. Everybody has to start somewhere. All I wanted to point out was that his scope may present challenges at the class and to be ready for them. Like I said earlier, if I were him I would think long and hard about putting a different scope on the gun for ease of learning sake. In addition, the 10x reticle might pose a problem at 1320 yards. He wanted to be informed, not told that his equipment is shit. I’d have wanted his shit when I first started. Remember where we came from guys.

 

[bschneiderheinze]

Straw man argument. I’m done trying to reason with a rock while you’re selling your scope like it’s the hottest shit since sliced bread.

Oh, and you’re the one that used the words “Chinese scope” like it meant turds. I just pointed out that you are also selling a turd.

So you own a “turd” and like it. I said I would you use it as a back up scope if I didn’t have another $2500 scope sitting on my back up rifle. Don’t twist my words.

 

[bschneiderheinze]

Damn gentlemen. This shouldn’t have turned into a scope bashing thread. The OP simply wanted some info on his new to him setup. We gave him that and then started second guessing his equipment to the point of calling it a garbage scope. That’s not what he was asking for. I would have loved to have his scope a few years ago when I got my first long range gun. Everybody has to start somewhere. All I wanted to point out was that his scope may present challenges at the class and to be ready for them. Like I said earlier, if I were him I would think long and hard about putting a different scope on the gun for ease of learning sake. In addition, the 10x reticle might pose a problem at 1320 yards. He wanted to be informed, not told that his equipment is shit. I’d have wanted his shit when I first started. Remember where we came from guys.

Absolutely everyone starts somewhere I shot my first PRS match with an AR10 a SFP NF not a clue what I was doing. I know guys that were and still are shooting PRS with blind magazines (it’ got be a bitch to reload half way through a stage but it’s all a game and it’s still fun.

 

[db2000]

MOA is converted to Mils by dividing it by 3.43.
Mils is converted to MOA by multiplying by 3.43

 

[MarinePMI]

Gentlemen,

I'd suggest toning it down. If you want to trade insults, take it to the pit. Keep that crap out of the technical discussions. Consider this the one, and only, warning.

 

[Jaron3]

@ElbanGold
You still here bud?

 

[Quarter Horse]

Just wanted to add a side note to this thread, for any other new people reading it:

THIS is what a solid, good, first post on the Hide should look like. No ego, honest questions, and a lot of information to allow members to quickly and effectively help a new member.

BZ to ElbanGold for a solid post, and BZ to the SH members helping him out!

Agreed. As a matter of fact I thought the post might be a setup by the HMFIC. He's been twirling the BanCat by the tail and it's gotta be plenty pissed by now.

OP, congrats on not taking the bait on a couple of occasions when it was thrown out. You commented but then regained your focus and moved on.

I'll accept your comments regarding the golf balls and the one hole performance at C2 which means you have won the rifle lottery. Looking forward to your class you simply don't have worry about the rifle. I would suggest that you not disassemble, beyond taking the bolt out, the rifle prior to the class. If you want to check the action screws go ahead but if they are snug I would go no further. As regards how your rifle came to be here are a few thoughts. You have a Remington barreled action, Bell and Carlson Tactical Medalist Style 5, Wyatts bottom metal and a Harris bi-pod. With the exception of the barrelled action all of these are available through Stocky's. Your rings are probably Burris Extremes or possibly SWFAs. The level appears to be a B-Square. It's a guess but I would bet the Stocky's items were sourced together. These are not Guccci parts but they are perfectly serviceable.

You have probably figured out your battery location. If not, hold the illum. control firmly. At the end of the control dials is a knurled cap. Turn the cap CCW and you will find a battery underneath it. It's probably a round 2032. Should you replace it do so with a lithium replacement.

Should you have the need to tighten your your bottom ring to rail mount do not overtighten. The Burris rings have an idiosyncrasy that can cause problems. I'm assuming the SWFA's are identical but you know how assumptions go.

What ammo have you settled on? 1320 is a very long reach for a .308.

You are considering a new optic and have established a $700.00 lid. I suggest you exercise this option. I know nothing about the Chinese manufactured scopes except that Athlon's top of the line is Japanese. I'm sure there is a reason. Weaver made a line of Tactical Scopes that were sourced in Japan, probably built by Low. Scott at Liberty Optics has Weaver Tactical 3-15X50s. The Japanese tacticals have an excellent rep. regarding IQ, durability, dialing accuracy, etc. One caution is that Weaver is no longer in the scope business but Bushnell is representing them for service\warranty. They have just over 100moa of elevation and almost 4" of eye relief. The tube is 30mm so it would just be a matter take off the Falcon and drop in the Weaver. Make sure the item # is 800363. I have two of these. They have been on and off of several rifles and I have had no problems. I can not personally comment on long term reliability as I haven't used them enough to feel I know. I think using Mil\Mil and FFP will vastly improve your experience at the course. It will put you on the same page as most everyone else. OTH I agree with Lash that whoever is running the course should be able to handle the Falcon. After the class if you think this is not for you than sell it. I think you would easily get $450. for it. Think of it as $200.-$250. rental fee. Or, make enough PB&Js to last the trip and you've already saved the difference.

One more thought on gear. https://www.harrisbipods.com/ Get a Harris HBRMS. At the bottom of the page is a locking lever, you'll need that as well.

Oh, welcome to SH.

 

[ZG47A]

The Falcon Brabant (B) series of reticles are, in my experience, Mil based BUT I am not familiar with their older model sighting telescopes.
As for the negative comments ... I sometimes wonder if those posters stopped developing mentally after their seventeenth birthdays.

 

[Jscb1b]

Side note, check the PX. You can get alot of scope there.

 

[ElbanGold]

I think I found a little more info on you scope.

Falcon Optics Menace 4.5-18x56mm Tactical Rifle Scope - Sniper Central

Falcon Optics Menace 4.5-18x56mm Tactical Rifle Scope

web.archive.org

I think that’s the most accurate description of what I have that’s been found yet. I appreciate your research. I do seem to have the revised model they reference with the solid tube which is encouraging.
Thank you. I saved the article as a PDF to my phone so I can reference it with my instructor.
Cheers!

 

[ElbanGold]

@ElbanGold
You still here bud?

Yes just slammed with work and research and learning the terms. Haven’t been able to get back into the thread until about 30min ago. Still reading all the new posts. Thanks

 

[ElbanGold]

Agreed. As a matter of fact I thought the post might be a setup by the HMFIC. He's been twirling the BanCat by the tail and it's gotta be plenty pissed by now.

OP, congrats on not taking the bait on a couple of occasions when it was thrown out. You commented but then regained your focus and moved on.

I'll accept your comments regarding the golf balls and the one hole performance at C2 which means you have won the rifle lottery. Looking forward to your class you simply don't have worry about the rifle. I would suggest that you not disassemble, beyond taking the bolt out, the rifle prior to the class. If you want to check the action screws go ahead but if they are snug I would go no further. As regards how your rifle came to be here are a few thoughts. You have a Remington barreled action, Bell and Carlson Tactical Medalist Style 5, Wyatts bottom metal and a Harris bi-pod. With the exception of the barrelled action all of these are available through Stocky's. Your rings are probably Burris Extremes or possibly SWFAs. The level appears to be a B-Square. It's a guess but I would bet the Stocky's items were sourced together. These are not Guccci parts but they are perfectly serviceable.

You have probably figured out your battery location. If not, hold the illum. control firmly. At the end of the control dials is a knurled cap. Turn the cap CCW and you will find a battery underneath it. It's probably a round 2032. Should you replace it do so with a lithium replacement.

Should you have the need to tighten your your bottom ring to rail mount do not overtighten. The Burris rings have an idiosyncrasy that can cause problems. I'm assuming the SWFA's are identical but you know how assumptions go.

What ammo have you settled on? 1320 is a very long reach for a .308.

You are considering a new optic and have established a $700.00 lid. I suggest you exercise this option. I know nothing about the Chinese manufactured scopes except that Athlon's top of the line is Japanese. I'm sure there is a reason. Weaver made a line of Tactical Scopes that were sourced in Japan, probably built by Low. Scott at Liberty Optics has Weaver Tactical 3-15X50s. The Japanese tacticals have an excellent rep. regarding IQ, durability, dialing accuracy, etc. One caution is that Weaver is no longer in the scope business but Bushnell is representing them for service\warranty. They have just over 100moa of elevation and almost 4" of eye relief. The tube is 30mm so it would just be a matter take off the Falcon and drop in the Weaver. Make sure the item # is 800363. I have two of these. They have been on and off of several rifles and I have had no problems. I can not personally comment on long term reliability as I haven't used them enough to feel I know. I think using Mil\Mil and FFP will vastly improve your experience at the course. It will put you on the same page as most everyone else. OTH I agree with Lash that whoever is running the course should be able to handle the Falcon. After the class if you think this is not for you than sell it. I think you would easily get $450. for it. Think of it as $200.-$250. rental fee. Or, make enough PB&Js to last the trip and you've already saved the difference.

One more thought on gear. https://www.harrisbipods.com/ Get a Harris HBRMS. At the bottom of the page is a locking lever, you'll need that as well.

Oh, welcome to SH.

Thank you very much for all this information and input. You hit all the nails on the head including the battery size and location.
As far as ammo, I have purchased 250 rounds of Federal Gold Metal Match 175gr.
I think I will take the rifle as is. The instructor said he will have a pair of backups if needed should anything go wrong and I can use one if them at any time for a comparison or if something goes wrong with mine.
I also kind of like that there will be something to figure out if the scope is a little odd with regard to mils/moa. I have help from the posts, I am good at math and I’ll have instruction and a calculator for the class. With a little practice I should be able to begin making the calcs mentally. And if not I can reference the chart posted earlier or run the calcs quickly. While not ideal, I do that that this level of involvement makes for a deeper learning environment of the solutions and problems presented in ballistics as a whole and it doesn’t intimidate me.
It is a pretty good starting rifle. I appreciate your help!

 

[Jaron3]

Glad you stuck around. Please post up after you come back from your class to tell us about your experience. I have a feeling you’re going to have a good time and learn a lot.

 

[lash]

Glad you stuck around. Please post up after you come back from your class to tell us about your experience. I have a feeling you’re going to have a good time and learn a lot.

+1
Good luck and good shooting!

 

[ElbanGold]

Good news everyone!

I won a bet with my wife and now my scope budget is $1200 haha! I spotted an opportunity when she adamantly made a claim that something I know 100% to be true, was something else. So I bet her money and she shook my hand. Whipped out Wikipedia and frowned as she pulled out her stash. (We share finances completely so it’s mostly just goofing around but we do have our own personal fun money)
Tonight I turned knowing the Fahrenheit to Celsius conversion is degreesF minus 32, then x5, then /9 =degreesC into $500! HA!!
So! Tomorrow I’m getting new glass!

FFV mils reticle.. Ill reference back to the previously mentioned recommendations but this does open a new echelon of possible options. And further input or suggestions are both welcome if anyone has ideas. I will have to pay retail at a shop if I’m to have it ahead of the class. Optics planet has options but shipping is 40 days out... if I don’t see what I like at the stores then I’ll use what I have for the class and wait and get something later.

 

[loveha]

Most of us her recommend against Optics Planet for many reason. Their are many vendors here that will be glad to help you get into whatever fits your budget.
@gr8fuldoug of CameralandNY is one of them.
Can't think of the vendor for Vortex scopes that people recommend.

 

[Mooseknuckles]

Doug is great to deal with. Just bought a couple scope from him.
CSTactical is a hide vendor and vortex dealer. Haven’t bought from him yet but he is good to go.

 

[PAYDIRT]

Doug or CS. CS has been GOLDEN to me.

 

[lash]

Scott at Liberty Optics is also a great Hide dealer that specializes in Vortex if that’s the direction you are going. In any case call any of these guys directly and mention Snipers Hide for good deals and to discuss your options. They are all great guys.

 

[CaptNemo]

Within your budget
plus leaves $ in you budget for accessories and ammo

 

[Southern Custom]

Cameraland NY can get you into a scope like this Bushnell DMR and you'll have money in the budget for a nice set of rings.

Product Description

Product Description | Camera Land NY

cameralandny.com

 

[Southern Custom]

And congrats on picking up a nice shooter. Half your battle is over. Have fun in that class.