Gunsmithing A new deer rifle.

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jbird22cal

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Dec 29, 2011
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#1
Hi all, I decided last Saturday that my 45/70 is just to slow. This lever gun replaced my 30-30 in an effort to push through brush.

I use a 300 Win mag for fields. This cartridge is ok and will amply cover the 500-700 yard opportunities; however, the factory low end Winchester model 70 may not. With the advent of people developing the surounding farm land I feel the need to dial down the power of my field cartridge.

So I have decided to split the difference of the 30-30 which I had burning out at 2200 fps and whatever the 165 gr hornady produces on 75 gr of h4831sc (I forgot at thr moment) and go with the 308 winchester.

The reason I posted in the gunsmithing forum, because I'll need some help with impletation.

My goal is to compromise and make a turn bolt that will be short and can be managed in brush and capable of upto 400-500 yard field shots. (Note: I despise the scout setups, due to the forwards optics and sunlight always ends up in the scope)

I am highly concerned with balance. I favor the balance point on the reciever side. I find its easier swing into a target area and hold off hand but having the balance point slightly forward has its advantage.

I've grown in my tastes that I want to start with a reciever and build my way up vs customizing an off the rack. Also I would like to shoot with my friends that shoot longer than 400-500 yards for fun. It wont see the amount of use a competition gun would.

Here is my thoughts that Im trying to figure:

● My first weight restriction was 7-8 #s. I have to be able to carry it. I have a 12# varmint tapered barrel that is to heavy to walk with. I will need to weigh my other turn bolts to see what I can manage. My lever guns are about 7 lbs.

After a good conversation with Krieger barrels this may not be achievable. They responded in good time and are in the running for my action and barrel work. It was them, ER Shaw, or shilen. Shilen website claims they are not accepting actions to barrel. I have not contacted ER.

● Barrel: 18"-20" overall with a JP enterprises recoil eliminator. (I like that design but am open to suggestions that would fit my eberlestock gunrunner scabbord better) I was hoping to get into some type of varmint style tapor.

I have not determined: Contour, type of rifling, rifling size, material, or twist and that's, why I'm here.

● Stock: Because I will be doing the fitting and bedding myself, I favor wood over synthetic, those nice laminates have my attention. I also may add a mercury recoil reducer on top of a break as some folks I shoot and hunt with have trouble with recoil greater than .223 Rem due to heath problems. Wood is just easier but I dont mind any decent solid composites that arent gigantic in the hands.

● reciever - I'm favoring a Rem 700 over savage as I like the bolt movement over the savage. I wont completley discount a Savage on advise from a LEO associate that ran through sniper school. I will not pay for a model 70 action though I really like them. Likewise a surgeon or similar is to much for this project

● trigger - This of course is dependent on the reciever make. Ill figure that out after. Most trigger manufacturers cover what I want in a single stage.

● Bolt - I will sublet the bolt for some type of extension for speed and optic clearance.

● Optics will be considered after perfomance is determined. I have spares that will work in the interim. This also will efect the weight, So its more of an icing on the cake.

● Bullet - I have done much reading on this forum and figure 150-275gr with 165-168 being what I'm most familiar with. I will not know the veocity exactly until loads are developed. Basically whatever I can get to work with a mildot master. Im so over these bdc reticles as they ate never quite right.

● Bottom metal - Right now I have leftover 700 bottom metal from an sps. The detatchable mags look nice, but are incredibly expensive, though I could go this route because if I manage to get into a rifle class it may help. But anything I can unload without cycling the bolt every round.

● Finish - Will be duracoat.

● Target budget - $900-1200 before optics. Of course this never quite works out.

Any suggestions, opinions, screaming hot deals on components on the above information? Especially the barrel and chamber. When I learned to reload, I did from some folks in the BR club so I have tools more so than the average deer hunter. I also like accuracy so I can purchase higher end dies.


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#3
it looks like a rem aac-sd would fit the bill. you could buy one and replace the trigger with a timney and there you go. a new stock would prob be in order too. im not partial to the hogue that comes with them.
 
#4
It looks like big green pulled it off with the weight. I suppose I could duplicate the rifle with slightly better components and a trued action. I haven't known the barrel torque to be correct allong with other issues related to mass produced rifles.

With a hogue stock, the weight is probably a lot lower. Swap that out with a better one and it will be heavier. I would also have to change that trigger.

Now I have to search the barrel contour to match it. By modifying a rifle like that, I would spend almost as much as one built specifically to what I want.

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#5
I weighed a bunch of bolt guns I have sitting around. I can probably manage 10 # with optics.

With my rule of paying 50% to 100% of the cost of the rifle for optics the weight of those optics usually get a lot lighter with the exception of my millet which weighs 2.5 pounds on its own.

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#6
a 308 with a 16" barrel will shoot a 168g A-max to 600yds easy and do a great job on deer.
a short action with a standard sporter couture would be fine get a light weight stock from Manners or McMillan top it with a 4-12 scope and you should be fine with a weight in the sub 8lb range.
 
#7
Indeed it would. I just wanted a trued action and was set on building from the ground up.

Im stuck trying to match the barrel of the aac-sd with a Krieger bbl.

I wanted a little more than just a hunting rifle. I wanted one tgat could at least show up on an informal target shoot and maybe whack some song dogs.

Ive been wanting a precision rifle so I can lesrn more about long range shooting than I already know. Most mass produced gun wont necessarily work well at extended ranges. I have an xps in 22-250 I was going to play with before tge shortage of ammo and components. I put a total of $800 in that stick and still want to burn the barrel out so I can replace it. It is less then stellar so I figured starting from scratch may be better.

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#8
Perhaps I should post in here asking someonr to get me rough measurements on the aac-sd so I can get a similar Krieger. 6 different forums and a boat load of posts and all I could find is the dimensions for

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#10
I dont have a link but therevis avthread on here about a light weight sniper rifle that has boat loads of intel on stocks and such but nothing so far to pick options to balance the rifle.

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#11
Is there a reason you're absolutely stuck on a Krieger?

There are a bunch of top level barrel makers out there with the ability to do a custom contour and I know for a fact that Hawk Hill Precision makes fantastic barrels in any contour you want (including fluting if that's your cup of tea). Their historic delivery times have been spot-on with the estimates and are running somewhere around 8 weeks currently for a barrel with a custom twist and custom contour. They're cut-rifled, SS barrels, if memory serves correctly they just had a top 5 finish at the F-class Nat's in F-TR as well.

I have a 300WM barrel coming back from them that the finished 28" length runs 4.85lbs and if you ran the same contour in a 16.5" 308 it should be about 2.85#-3.15# if I'm getting close on the SWAG.

That means you'd be on par with your goal of a <10# all up rifle in 308. The heftiest thing I can see being involved here is the laminate stock, they aren't light and you can cut a significant amount of weight by going with a really light weight composite.

Additionally, on the mercury tube, the tube is just a recoil reducer by adding weight, the brake is going more for you and by handloading some reduced-recoil loads for the rifle it will be very manageable. I would advise against the Hg-tube altogether for a light rifle that you're spending a bunch of money to cut weight from already.
 
#12
Well, Im kindaa stuck on Krieger simply because they are 2.5 hr away and have good customer service thus far.
I've kind of decided on an 18" barrel with 1:10 twist. I read about the 1:12 and some kind of drift reduction. I haven't picked out a contour, I haven't got as far as what rifling type though the 5r is looking to be easier to clean. I also am thinking on free bore and neck clearence.

Ill have to take a look at Hawk Hill.

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#13
I gotcha, a local barrel maker is nice, Hawk Hill is about 5 hours from me. One day I might make the trip down to visit the shop.

I've had 4 and 6 groove as well as a 5 groove. I never saw anything to lead me saying that 5R was any easier to clean, to me it's just another rifling pattern that makers sell. It sells, I haven't seen any real evidence to say "it cleans better" or "they shoot better"

It's hard to argue with a 4-groove that punches 1/4moa groups from a hunting rifle, at some point do you have a deer rifle or do you want to compete in Light Rifle Varmint BR Class with it?
 
#14
Additionally, on the mercury tube, the tube is just a recoil reducer by adding weight, the brake is going more for you and by handloading some reduced-recoil loads for the rifle it will be very manageable. I would advise against the Hg-tube altogether for a light rifle that you're spending a bunch of money to cut weight from already.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the heads up onthat. It hit me in bed this morning to look at recoil pads. I've used some good ones and if they are slippery (Sticky rubber doesn't work for fast shouldering) that my help tame the recoil.

I'm just not sure on balance. With a wood stock its easy to remove or add a little weight.



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#15
Primary use would be whitetail but with my network of associates grows with more advanced rifleman then myself. Advanced training and learning in precision shooting on the tactical side of the spectrum will probably follow.

I see benifits from such skill set improvements for hunting and I like to know I can hit things farther away than I can now. Hunting is just my most practical application and therefore the weight comes into play. I have 2 heavy barrelled 224 caliber sticks. Ones a gas gun and ones a turn bolt. Both stay home when I search for song dogs and I carry a 6 # gas gun carbine that is already to heavy after my recent training.

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#16
Back to the 5r. I'm prone to end up using iosso or jb bore cleaner at some point in the life of the barrel due to If its still dirty a after Ive worn out two brushes and used about 20 patches and 2 different solvents and kroil. I get impatient and bust it out. From a first look it looks like the rifling would suffer from rounding off as easily or noticiably. Its happened but I choose better powders now that im weening my self off of factory ammo. You know how it is that large supply you spent 5 years gathering incase there is a price jump or an ammo shortage.

You pointed out cuts, well the 1903 did wonders when in was chambered for the 30-03 with 4 grooves. It was dropped to two grooves for sake of production. I hadn't though about anything but 4 or 5. Whichever is offered by the manufacturer. The only thing I am concerned with is the depth. Krieger lists .001 over bore diameter and some guy on here specs .0005.

I dont particularly care as long as it works.

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#17
On the composite stocks:

It's easy to add a lead weight in a fiberglass stock too in the forearm area if you need to. In fact, considering that most of the fillers are super soft anyway it's easier to do than a wood laminate in my eyes.

For recoil pads, take a look at the Limbsavers, I've had great experiences with them.

On the barrel cleaning, it sounds to me like you should really re-evaluate how often and how hard you're cleaning your precision rifle barrel... I haven't cleaned the latest 6.5 Creedmoor barrel on my match rifle yet and it's over 1000rd through it. Same with the last one and the one before that.
 
#18
I clean it to the point of no fowling on the patch. The flyers have been consitent on cold bore oiled barrel. I only do this before storage as moisture in my house does horrible things.

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#19
For the rifles that I am going to leave for a while or I don't know when I'll use them again, I spray the bore with RemOil or PB-Blaster or something of the like, pull an oiled patch through and wipe down the bolt/lugs. Otherwise, the more you clean, the more you're "shooting it back in" each time.

Just some advice on my experiences, I know some guys feel the need to clean everything all the time, it is just money out of their pocket for doing that IMO.
 
#20
I normallly agree with you on the cleaning. It takes 3 rounds for my off the rack rifles to settle now that I said bye bye to molybdenum. But it was just an observation and I have no problem with the single cut rifling as I'm sure it will make a bullet go round and round. I fowled my deer guns a week ago and because I am still in the season I dont bother cleaning unless I pack the bore with snow. I've had barrels rot out but I've never shot out one.

With an 18 inch barrel my research leads me to believe that 1:10 will work well. I think I may have to throat for around a 170 grain bullet instead of the heaviers. I enjoy a decent point blank range on a 4 inch target and a heavier bullet will screw that up in an 18" barrel I think. But the jury is still out.


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#21
WRT the PBR value you have a good point and here's a comparison on a 5" diameter target, or a 2.5" vitals radius. I ran the numbers recently using JBM's Trajectory Calculator.

165 GMX @ 2800fps
200yd zero
Max PBR 266yd
Max PBR Zero 229yd

178 Amax @ 2500fps
200yd zero
Max PBR 241yd
Max PBR Zero 207yd

208 Amax @ 2350fps
200yd zero
Max PBR 232yd
Max PBR Zero 199yd (200yd zero is pretty optimal)


The only point to running something faster than a 10tw in this rifle would be if you're going to shoot suppressed subsonic ammo and you want more punch than a 220 Sierra Round Nose can provide. (About 480FPE Muzzle Energy) so you would go to either cast 250's (540FPE) or 240 SMK's (520 FPE) and run a faster twist. There isn't enough difference there that I'd really advocate it for what you're looking to get.


Hit me up in a PM if you want to discuss your PBR calcs, I'll teach you how to do it.
 
#22
I use point blank software. Its close to real for a free program. Its just I need actual velocities to work it correctly.

Are there any places to get a more cost effective rifle stock than mcm or manners. Manners are more expensive than mcm and mcm are hard to duracoat.

The cost of the reciever and the barrel put me around 700-800$ and the stock blows me away 600+ I will need optics and mounts last mounts I purchased put me over 200 on them alone.

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#24
JBM is free FYI

The better estimate on MV won't come from free software though QuickLoad gives a reasonable approximation.

You can take a look at Stockade stocks, the "unfinished" ones that require some finish sanding, painting, and bedding are pretty inexpensive. I think that they're more biased to producing Savage inlets though, and a barreled action from a Savage wouldn't be an altogether bad idea.
 
#25
I tried stockade but their site seems to not be working. All of the links come back as 404 errors.

Now onto breaks. I like the jp recoil eliminator as it is less likely to start fires like ive seen at the local gun club.

With an 18" barrel it may not be advisable because I may be in a blind at some point but reduced recoil is my friend. I can handle recoil as I currently field a 300 wm without a break.

I suppose a break may negate my efforts of weight reduction to some extent but if its doable I may. Are there any that are popular?

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#26
APA's "Little Bastard" is a very popular brake and highly effective. Overall the breaks don't weigh much and pound for pound are far more effective than the Hg tubes will be as they do work by redirecting the gasses, not just up the mass of the system.

Others are the Micro FDE (I think) from Badger.

Ross Schuler's brakes are great adn very cost effective at ~$40 each.
 
#27
I recently built a rifle much like your wanting. Wanted it to be a dual purpose type. It came out better than i expected. Now this cost more than your budget, but using a different action and different components you can get the same results.

The spec for mine are:

Stiller Tac 30 Action
8 twist Bartlein Barrel Chambered in 6.5CM Rem Varmint Profile finished @ 22" fluted
Manners EH-1 Stock
Seekins DBM
Seekins low rings

With a Vortex PST 6-24x50 on top it weighs right about 9lbs unloaded. My target was 10lbs.

I like the balance of the rifle so much I'm getting my .308 chopped and have plans to slowly upgrade it.

If you went 18-20" you could save even more weight.
 
#28
.308 Rem 700 Action $400(high end, hopefully you can get one cheaper)
Get in on Long Range Inc's group buy currently ongoing, check it out here$400
5R barrel 20" in length from your choice of barrel maker $350 (recommended twist rate given application is 1:10 or 1:11.25)
Base and Rings ($200ish)
Timney Trigger ($200ish)
B&C Stock ($260ish)
PTG BDL pattern direct drop in DBM ($250ish)<This price includes one Accuracy international 5 rnd magazine

Total Cost is near $2k and exceeds your budget by a decent bit but you could save money in certain areas if you choose to. Probably going to be over $1200 regardless but it should shoot with damn near any rifle you'd come across.
 
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#29
Well... Thanks all. I sat down and detail searched the pricing on this. Just a trued action and barrel brings me to a grand despite my discounts.

I even searched custom actions and wont save anything. I guess I will have to look for a complete rifle and cry every time I need to change something. I have a rifle like that now. Starting that way seems mor expensive in the long run.

I will have to put it on hold until I can find a deal.

I just wish savage made a gun I could customize that I liked. The cost effective 110 just doesn't fit correctly. And it bolt seams like it is slow.

Back to the draawing board. It turned out better than my last concept that estimated at $6k.

I'll keep looking, I will do something.

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#31
For what you are looking for, consider a 280 Ackley.
Stocks: whatever your McMillan preference
I agree with the above statements: don't get too stuck on barrel brands. Consider timelines from krieger, bartlein, and Lilja. Lilja is running about 3 months right now; not bad.
You're going to want a Jewell, factor $250 into your budget.
 
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