Rifle Scopes a note on Tangent Theta and pricing

[longshot2000]

Fellow members: I had to bring commercial talk into this part of the forum, but I feel compelled.

Like any dealer, we run some specials from time to time. This month, we are running a sprint to sell Tangent Theta. In the Optics PX, we are listing the TT525P at MAP price, like we are required to do. Some of you have PM'd me and gotten a price, and perhaps some of these PMs have been used to leverage other dealers. I don't really like that tactic, and it is not fair to any vendor, nor the manufacturer.

I am certain that each 'hide vendor here does their best to offer great prices and great value. I think we are very lucky -- as members -- to have great vendors. Honestly, I think most all of us contribute to the discussion and add value and good pricing.

We try to offer great pricing for 'hide members, and for us, it is all about building and reinforcing long-term relationships. In this case, the matter has made its way to the manufacturer, and they do not like the pricing we are offering.

If you want a good price, ask us. Ask any other vendor here on the 'hide, but please don't share or use that as leverage. Maybe it is better if you call. My number is listed on the signature line, or you can PM me for a number.

Happy Shooting.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Not sure what’s worse, the person who’s yamaka was a little too snug, or the whiney dealer who reported to the manufacturer that you offered a lower price to someone who contacted you directly.

 

[chavezz556]

Not sure what’s worse, the person who’s yamaka was a little too snug, or the whiney dealer who reported to the manufacturer that you offered a lower price to someone who contacted you directly.

I think he means contacting another dealer to get a better price....

If you've ever done a sales job you will know "buyers are liars" doesn't matter if it's the little old church lady or your owe friend. Everyone has to have a way out just in case they feel they aren't getting the best deal..

I'd take service over a deal any day

 

[308pirate]

Aaaaand………….this is why we can't have nice things

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I know what he meant. Some cheap cocksucker looking to get something for nothing called at least one other dealer asking them to beat the others pricing and one of those dealers whined to TT that another dealer was selling to customers lower than them.

That's low on the individual trying to beat a dealer up like that, and also low on the dealer who reported for being a fucking cry baby.

 

[Lowlight]

It's mystery shopper stuff,

One guy hears another guy is selling cheaper, he sends a buddy over to ask, when the proof comes in they go to the company to have their competition removed.

It sucks for me too because it pisses guys off and they leave because people can't just stay in their lane. The public posts that break the company / dealer rules no problem, that is public, but if you use a PM conversation or phone call that is bad form.

 

[CSTactical]

Aaaaand………….this is why we can't have nice things

 

[steve123]

I didn't become a dealer for another optics Co partially for this reason. Dealers aren't supposed to be selling less than MAP but most do and there is always an outfit that will sell cheaper. Then it gets to the point when there's not enough profit to mess with the whole thing.

I don't know which is worse coming from the consumer side of things, like thinking I got a good deal on a purchase then finding out the same outfit I just bought a scope from sold the same scope for significantly less to someone else.

There's no easy answer I guess.

 

[Threadcutter308]

As a consumer, openly using one vendor's price as leverage on another vendor is a shitbird thing to do. Yeah, you may get a better deal, but you destroy the vendor's relationship with the manufacturer and you screw everything up for the rest of us. Show a little integrity. Think about someone other than just yourself, and knock that shit off.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I didn't become a dealer for another optics Co partially for this reason. Dealers aren't supposed to be selling less than MAP but most do and there is always an outfit that will sell cheaper. Then it gets to the point when there's not enough profit to mess with the whole thing.

If manufacturers don't want dealers selling under MAP then they should use MRP instead like Dillon for example. X is the price and if you get caught selling under you're yanked.

With MAP dealers can sell for whatever they want as long as they don't openly advertise a lower price. If someone calls another dealer and tells them what they can get it for here, or the person posts it then I don't see how the dealer can be held accountable for that because they didn't break any rules.

 

[Ravenyzf-r6]

As a consumer, openly using one vendor's price as leverage on another vendor is a shitbird thing to do. Yeah, you may get a better deal, but you destroy the vendor's relationship with the manufacturer and you screw everything up for the rest of us. Show a little integrity. Think about someone other than just yourself, and knock that shit off.

So when you buy a car you just pay the lowest sticker price?

You should also be blaming the other vendors for telling a consumer to find a better price and they will beat it, because you know that happens.

 

[CSTactical]

So when you buy a car you just pay the lowest sticker price?

You should also be blaming the other vendors for telling a consumer to find a better price and they will beat it, because you know that happens.

To stay in business in this climate many dealers have been nearly forced into doing it for certain products at certain times. It's much worse today than it was even two years ago. I've had some customers call up and basically demand items at dealers cost because they heard that XYZ Sales sells them at that price though they don't have them in stock and have no ETA. I'm all for competition but we also need to stay in business.

 

[Threadcutter308]

So when you buy a car you just pay the lowest sticker price?

You should also be blaming the other vendors for telling a consumer to find a better price and they will beat it, because you know that happens.

Different Industries, different policies. When was the last time you saw a car advertised with a "MAP" proviso.

re; MAP. It's the same with cameras, very common in higher end sporting goods such as fly fishing.
I think you are missing the underlying point. The firearms and optics industries are much, much smaller and the manufacturers can get away with imposing "MAP", whereas, the auto industry doesn't give a shit. The auto manufacturers help support dealers by listing cars higher than what they would normally, then give rebates to dealers (not usually passed on to the consumer) because of "low", market driven sales prices.

 

[Lowlight]

Don't underestimate the power of the game of telephone either

Why is this an increasing problem, well the internet and groups are one issue, but it's combined now with the Competition Guys selling stuff cheap after a match. Then the game of Telephone kicks in,

Hey, my Buddy brought a NF for $1800 it came from CS Tactical, meanwhile, His Buddy bought it from a guy who Won it in Competition and then solid it for loss to make a quick sale. The story then morphs into a pressure point on the other dealers to somehow reconcile this situation and match the price

 

[chavezz556]

As a consumer, openly using one vendor's price as leverage on another vendor is a shitbird thing to do. Yeah, you may get a better deal, but you destroy the vendor's relationship with the manufacturer and you screw everything up for the rest of us. Show a little integrity. Think about someone other than just yourself, and knock that shit off.

Try being in the car business...lol

Usually when it's too good to be true... It's too good to be true

 

[W54/XM-388]

I'm going to be on a bit of the different side.

I absolutely HATE with a passion companies that try to force consumers to pay higher prices by either horizontally or vertically controlling the sales market. I also detest resellers that are little bitches and go whining and crying to somebody because they feel they "deserve" more profit for basically flipping an item.

I was never so glad to see a company go bust as I was when Premier went belly up after their treatment of Scott over giving discounts.
I wonder if some of the college brainwashed idiots who made policies for Primer happened to wind up whispering in TT's ear.

The Manufacturer gets their money from the dealers & then if one dealer wants to be a bit more profit hungry than another, that's what free commerce is all about. If the other vendors don't want to match another vendor's price, that's up to them, but quit being whiny bitches about it and demanding that you get "guaranteed profit".

Consumers should try to get the best value and deal they can for their hard earned money unless they just have so much money they want to throw it away to prove they are rich enough to buy things at the most expensive price. MAP is basically evil and MSP is downright vile.
What you need is MSRP so that customers can at least get an idea of the maximum it should cost & then hunt around for a deal.

I'll always shop around for the best deal as well as see what I can do to negotiate a better price. I buy quite a bit, but I'm always going to compare prices and see who can get me the best deal. Especially when it's as simple as "do you have x on the shelf, that you can toss in a box and ship", not really anything special there. Assuming all the parties can equally be relied on to ship out the product, I'll generally go with the one who wants the sale the most.

I work in sales and almost all our customers price shop around all over the internet first.
I don't mind if they come and say we got xxx price from yyy can you meet or beat it? I'm happy for the call & the opportunity & then I get to decide if we can or want to match / beat the other guys price or just pass on it if it's not profitable for us to do so.
Or as I prefer, go over why while my offer is a bit higher, I have much better quality items and they will get end items with a lot more quality control.

I'm glad if a customer gives me the chance to see if I can meet or beat a price, I'd prefer that any day to simply loosing the sale.
Sometimes I'm the one most hungry for the sale or with the most room to move, other times I'm not.
I'm pretty sure many of my quotes each day get sent to competitors for a bid and we get some of theirs sent to us sometimes as well.
The only times I get a bit perturbed is when customers take your offer, give it to someone else, then don't let you make a final counter, or if they go back and forth a bunch of times trying to get your best offer and then sending it back to get a couple more dollars off round and round. Usually I'll eventually just tell them to buy it from the other party.

I bought quite a lot of equipment this year and the vendors that were able to offer the best price / payment terms discounts / package discounts and such both locally in person and online got quite a bit of business.

 

[GrandpaDeadLegs]

Super snakey deals on supplies for your actual business, cool. If I could nab chainsaw stuff at cost I am compelled to do so under the laws of business.

Deals on your hobby? Your hobby that is intentionally and explicitly expensive? Lame.

 

[Tyler Kemp]

I've had folks ask me for a deal on a K525i. I give them a price and several have told me a dealer gave them $50 over cost. How is that even worth it for the dealer?

 

[Threadcutter308]

Try being in the car business...lol

Usually when it's too good to be true... It's too good to be true

Completely understood and wouldn't go within ten country miles of it.........

I'm in the power electronics industry and it's bad enough. And, on top of things, we give 30 day terms. When was the last time you bought groceries and the grocery store (not the credit card company) gave you 30 day terms ?

 

[Threadcutter308]

I've had folks ask me for a deal on a K525i. I give them a price and several have told me a dealer gave them $50 over cost. How is that even worth it for the dealer?

Yes, and that is what MAP is intended to protect dealers and manufacturers from. I'm in no way defending anything about MAP, but there needs to be a middle ground. A dealer has to make a reasonable profit, the customer needs to pay a reasonable price and the manufacturer doesn't want to have to referee cat fights between dealers because some yokel is shoping prices all over hell's half acre, which is what happened here.
And, I lean in the direction that consumers have been paying too much for far too long. I like getting a discount as much as anyone else, but I also want the dealer to make a profit. I expect to pay a bit more for quality and for service, in case I need it.
Let's say that "MAP" went away tomorrow and it was open season, price wise. What do you think the value of your "XYZ" brand of scope would be ? Like that example ? How about if the NFA went away tomorrow. That MP5 or M16 that you sank $30 or $40K into ? what do you think the value of it would be ? That's a stretch, I know, but not completely irrevelant.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Completely understood and wouldn't go within ten country miles of it.........
I'm in the power electronics industry and it's bad enough. And, on top of things, we give 30 day terms. When was the last time you bought groceries and the grocery store (not the credit card company) gave you 30 day terms ?

And then they think Net 30 means in 30 days they should put it on the calendar to pay sometime in the future.

 

[Threadcutter308]

And then they think Net 30 means in 30 days they should put it on the calendar to pay sometime in the future.

F/A Bubba!...... "180 days ? Is that a problem ?"

Actually, we have a number of customers that we have to send aging spreadsheets and duplicate invoices to on a monthly basis because......well.....just because. We finally get paid, but it's 60 to 90 days on average. How do these same people manage to keep their electricity from getting shut off at home ?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

This mystery shopper type thing of taking what is essentially a confidential price and telling another dealer that so and so gave them this price is one of the unspoken reasons why we see manufacturers starting to sell direct to consumer.

They remove this entire type of conversation from under their roof by doing so.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[W54/XM-388]

How about if the NFA went away tomorrow. That MP5 or M16 that you sank $30 or $40K into ? what do you think the value of it would be ? That's a stretch, I know, but not completely irrevelant.

That's exactly what certain dealer/traitors to the 2nd amendment specifically undermine us to protect and why we can't get enough traction to get evil laws overturned.

Y
Let's say that "MAP" went away tomorrow and it was open season, price wise. What do you think the value of your "XYZ" brand of scope would be ? Like that example ?

Precious "MAP Protection" or not, that has happened to just about every firearm and scope I own, while it means the resale value is less, (which sucks when you want to sell) it also means that I can now buy more of the same at amazing prices.

A dealer has to make a reasonable profit, the customer needs to pay a reasonable price .

Not quite.
The dealer would like to make as much profit as the market would allow
The customer should try to get the best value for their dollar
Free enterprise without artificial restrictions is when all the dealers and customers can freely meet up based on offers to sell / offers to buy & other considerations (such as loyalty, or repeat business opportunities).

 

[TheGerman]

lol MAP pricing

 

[CSTactical]

Hi,

This mystery shopper type thing of taking what is essentially a confidential price and telling another dealer that so and so gave them this price is one of the unspoken reasons why we see manufacturers starting to sell direct to consumer.

They remove this entire type of conversation from under their roof by doing so.

Sincerely,
Theis

And then only MAP and/or MSRP exists...

 

[W54/XM-388]

F/A Bubba!...... "180 days ? Is that a problem ?"
Actually, we have a number of customers that we have to send aging spreadsheets and duplicate invoices to on a monthly basis because......well.....just because. We finally get paid, but it's 60 to 90 days on average. How do these same people manage to keep their electricity from getting shut off at home ?

Some of our accounts are ones that buy from us, but we also buy from them, so on some of the ones once they get really past due instead of just sending them a check for the stuff we owe them when an invoice comes in, our accountant calls up their accountant and asks if they would just like us to credit their account with us for the amount we were going to send a check for.

You'd be surprised at how many people think that's so unfair and that well... Yes we are 90 days past due going on 120 days overdue, but you should just make sure to pay us what we need from you immediately and then we'll give you a few more months of excuses about when/if we will pay what we owe you. HA!

 

[hk dave]

I've had folks ask me for a deal on a K525i. I give them a price and several have told me a dealer gave them $50 over cost. How is that even worth it for the dealer?

When a dealer says that, it’s likely BS.

Let’s remember, buyers are full of it, but so are dealers. It’s a free market. Just need to learn to navigate it.

 

[hk dave]

Btw whoever is leveraging the super secret squirrel pricing to get other dealers to come down in price is a douche. Just buy the damn thing from the guy that gave you a good price and be done with it. Or choose based on customer service or whatever. Quit wasting everyone’s time.

 

[just browsing]

I see it from both sides of the plate. As a dealer, you need to make a profit. As a consumer, you want to find the best deals on the best products. Both fair mentalities to have, but naturally they are going to create opposing market tensions.

I think a lot of this falls on the manufacturer and there is a need to impose a sort of differentiation between dealers that are doing this for a living and “dealers” that are simply trying to get product at lower prices. Whether that’s via minimum buys to get preferred pricing, probationary cost structures, further vetting of newcoming dealers etc. I’m not sure what the best option is and quite frankly it’s not my problem to resolve. But I think there needs to be some form of governance in place so that guys who have no real interest in operating commercial businesses aren’t able to so easily undercut the guys that are.

I do think we’ll start to see more mfg to consumer direct business strategies going forward, and overall I think that benefits the consumer. But we also need to be weary of lower costs in the sense that lower costs = lower profits = less innovation. We all clamor for better quality and more features for less money, but there will come a point that the more-for-less mentality will hinder our abaility to get more-for-less.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Some of our accounts are ones that buy from us, but we also buy from them, so on some of the ones once they get really past due instead of just sending them a check for the stuff we owe them when an invoice comes in, our accountant calls up their accountant and asks if they would just like us to credit their account with us for the amount we were going to send a check for.

You'd be surprised at how many people think that's so unfair and that well... Yes we are 90 days past due going on 120 days overdue, but you should just make sure to pay us what we need from you immediately and then we'll give you a few more months of excuses about when/if we will pay what we owe you. HA!

Agreed, but no, not surprised at all. Have seen it happen too many times. Most accounting departments aren't nearly as stupid as they first appear to be. Generally, they are just following the Owner's or Manager's direction on how to conduct payables. They will serve up the most inane excuse while doing so though. Like I say, when they go home at night and flip on a light switch, viola, the light comes on.

 

[Threadcutter308]

That's exactly what certain dealer/traitors to the 2nd amendment specifically undermine us to protect and why we can't get enough traction to get evil laws overturned.



Precious "MAP Protection" or not, that has happened to just about every firearm and scope I own, while it means the resale value is less, (which sucks when you want to sell) it also means that I can now buy more of the same at amazing prices.



Not quite.
The dealer would like to make as much profit as the market would allow
The customer should try to get the best value for their dollar
Free enterprise without artificial restrictions is when all the dealers and customers can freely meet up based on offers to sell / offers to buy & other considerations (such as loyalty, or repeat business opportunities).

Yeah, no, don't misunderstand, I'm not standing up for, or defending any of it.......But, it is interesting isn't it ? The biggest body of buyers with all the cash, get tromped on by the "rulemakers".....I gave up on being upset about it a long time ago.

 

[The King]

I think the more work a distributor does, the more that they should profit. This work specifically being work done in addition to what a manufacturer does to get them the optics.

Its the distributors that drop ship scopes from a manufacturer and then tell the consumer with problems to call the manufacturer that I feel deserve exactly none of my money.

Distributors that do scope comparisons, good return policies, help with the repair process, talk to you on the phone about which scope meets your requirements the best, and just generally take care of you - they are adding some value to make an "expected profit" a reasonable proposition.

 

[phlegm]

This is the reason there is MAP.

Consumers are always going to work a dealer over to try to get what they perceive as a better deal - whether it actually is or not. This is why some companies inflate MSRP, as it builds the perception of savings.

No matter how much a manufacturer tries to defend the value of its brand and products, dealers consistently agree to or offer discounts. It can even get to the point that the manufacturers struggle to find dealers who want to do business with them and resort to consumer-direct sales to regain what they lost in market share.

If you're in business and want to do it well, watch this:

"Don't discount. People get addicted to discounts, they don't get addicted to free." For all the crap Mark Larue takes here because of his deportment on the internet or the issues people take with his designs, the man is a marketing juggernaut when it comes to this principle.

If you're a consumer looking for a deal, the Exchange has all the pre-loved, test-driven deals you could want.

 

[Lowlight]

I will say this about the companies,

Last week I went to MHSA to ship a rifle, and My Bad, it was Inventory Weekend so MHSA was technically closed to the Public but they were still there. I had to stay out of the house for a few hours, so I decided to help and answer the phones for them as they still rang off the hook. It was basically Me and Randy on the phones with everyone else working their massive inventory.

For every 10 calls, only 2 were "Sales" calls, I was kinda shocked. All the other calls were "Questions or Customer Service Calls".

Nothing crazy, "Hi, I bought a Spuhr mount from you, opened the box, which ring is the front ring vs the back" simple sure but takes time to answer.

The funniest and I never mentioned it,

When I answered the phone I just said, Mile Shooting, vs what most of the regular employees do, Hi Mile High Shooting this is Mike"... so nobody knew I was answering the phone. Guy calls (and he is a member here) He tells me he bought a Accu_Shot Mono Pod for his AI AT rifle and wanted to know how to mount it. So I get kinda technical and happened to have Adam standing there, so while on Hold I go over everything with Adam, including pulling the Model Numbers on the 2 Different Models for the AI Rifles. The AT vs the Legacy. I walk the guy through the process of trimming the skins and it's all good, a 5-minute call front to back.

Fast forward, I head home and the guy posted on here the same question, even stating he called MHSA, but he still was not sure, so he asked here a second time. I get it, measure twice cut once, but still.

There is a reason to pay these guys and not Chase Deals and push them into a corner. They work a fuck ton harder than you think on stuff that has nothing to do with Sales. To be Frank, if it was my company and you called me about a CS question from stuff you bought somewhere else I would probably be like, "Are you Fucking Shitting me" I get the CS side of things but when the phones are ringing 3x a minute, the 5 minutes to walk a guy through a CS issue that has very little bearing on sales is tough. MHSA Is fortunate because they have a lot of employees, they can transfer to the gunsmiths vs the sales guys answering the calls, but imagine a smaller shop.

These guys at MHSA answer all these crazy ass calls daily with a smile. They never let on it's taking away from sales in hopes it creates more sales down the road. But those Bridge Building Calls take time and cost money, you have to factor that into the price of things.

 

[CSTactical]

Want to know something funny? A Dealer can list their inventory up at their exact dealers cost for sale, up front specify it's their exact cost and are making no money on it and someone knowing that will still want to pay less...

 

[Soulezoo]

It's not really funny... but yeah. I feel your pain on that one.

 

[Threadcutter308]

I will say this about the companies,

Last week I went to MHSA to ship a rifle, and My Bad, it was Inventory Weekend so MHSA was technically closed to the Public but they were still there. I had to stay out of the house for a few hours, so I decided to help and answer the phones for them as they still rang off the hook. It was basically Me and Randy on the phones with everyone else working their massive inventory.

For every 10 calls, only 2 were "Sales" calls, I was kinda shocked. All the other calls were "Questions or Customer Service Calls".

Nothing crazy, "Hi, I bought a Spuhr mount from you, opened the box, which ring is the front ring vs the back" simple sure but takes time to answer.

The funniest and I never mentioned it,

When I answered the phone I just said, Mile Shooting, vs what most of the regular employees do, Hi Mile High Shooting this is Mike"... so nobody knew I was answering the phone. Guy calls (and he is a member here) He tells me he bought a Accu_Shot Mono Pod for his AI AT rifle and wanted to know how to mount it. So I get kinda technical and happened to have Adam standing there, so while on Hold I go over everything with Adam, including pulling the Model Numbers on the 2 Different Models for the AI Rifles. The AT vs the Legacy. I walk the guy through the process of trimming the skins and it's all good, a 5-minute call front to back.

Fast forward, I head home and the guy posted on here the same question, even stating he called MHSA, but he still was not sure, so he asked here a second time. I get it, measure twice cut once, but still.

There is a reason to pay these guys and not Chase Deals and push them into a corner. They work a fuck ton harder than you think on stuff that has nothing to do with Sales. To be Frank, if it was my company and you called me about a CS question from stuff you bought somewhere else I would probably be like, "Are you Fucking Shitting me" I get the CS side of things but when the phones are ringing 3x a minute, the 5 minutes to walk a guy through a CS issue that has very little bearing on sales is tough. MHSA Is fortunate because they have a lot of employees, they can transfer to the gunsmiths vs the sales guys answering the calls, but imagine a smaller shop.

These guys at MHSA answer all these crazy ass calls daily with a smile. They never let on it's taking away from sales in hopes it creates more sales down the road. But those Bridge Building Calls take time and cost money, you have to factor that into the price of things.

Yep

 

[longshot2000]

If manufacturers don't want dealers selling under MAP then they should use MRP instead like Dillon for example. X is the price and if you get caught selling under you're yanked.

With MAP dealers can sell for whatever they want as long as they don't openly advertise a lower price. If someone calls another dealer and tells them what they can get it for here, or the person posts it then I don't see how the dealer can be held accountable for that because they didn't break any rules.

I think there is probably some anti-competitive reason the manufacture sets MAP and not a floor on selling price. Look, we all call a supplier / dealer and say, "I can probably get it for $$ at xx" and then the vendor can reply and try to match if he/she wants. It goes with the territory. It is the written thing this is upsetting.

Most often, on this forum, people want a fair price, they want service, and they want access to the next new shiny object. Hey, as a dealer, I get messages from a few people I know are bottom fishers. I choose not to quote, or I give them MAP. As a dealer, I (most of us) want to be valued as a partner. There are times, we will choose to be a price leader, and times not. But when I have two items in high demand, who am I going to call? The guy who treats me well.

 

[Langford]

If you aren’t openly advertising for less than MAP, why would TT and or other manufacturers care what you sell a product for? Unless you’re also dealing with a floor pricing issue?

Companies skirt MAP all the time by having sales where you have to add the product to your cart before seeing the final sale price. A price given over a PM, phone call or product added to an online shopping cart isn’t considered Advertising.

 

[The King]

This is why MHSA gets my money over and over again. They are worth it. Value added.

Good enough pricing, a big ass showroom where I can compare shit, and knowledgeable/helpful staff.

Companies that don’t know what they are doing or tell me to call the manufactuerer with my silly questions are just product flippers and deserve any and all bottom feeders that fall upon them.

I will say this about the companies,

Last week I went to MHSA to ship a rifle, and My Bad, it was Inventory Weekend so MHSA was technically closed to the Public but they were still there. I had to stay out of the house for a few hours, so I decided to help and answer the phones for them as they still rang off the hook. It was basically Me and Randy on the phones with everyone else working their massive inventory.

For every 10 calls, only 2 were "Sales" calls, I was kinda shocked. All the other calls were "Questions or Customer Service Calls".

Nothing crazy, "Hi, I bought a Spuhr mount from you, opened the box, which ring is the front ring vs the back" simple sure but takes time to answer.

The funniest and I never mentioned it,

When I answered the phone I just said, Mile Shooting, vs what most of the regular employees do, Hi Mile High Shooting this is Mike"... so nobody knew I was answering the phone. Guy calls (and he is a member here) He tells me he bought a Accu_Shot Mono Pod for his AI AT rifle and wanted to know how to mount it. So I get kinda technical and happened to have Adam standing there, so while on Hold I go over everything with Adam, including pulling the Model Numbers on the 2 Different Models for the AI Rifles. The AT vs the Legacy. I walk the guy through the process of trimming the skins and it's all good, a 5-minute call front to back.

Fast forward, I head home and the guy posted on here the same question, even stating he called MHSA, but he still was not sure, so he asked here a second time. I get it, measure twice cut once, but still.

There is a reason to pay these guys and not Chase Deals and push them into a corner. They work a fuck ton harder than you think on stuff that has nothing to do with Sales. To be Frank, if it was my company and you called me about a CS question from stuff you bought somewhere else I would probably be like, "Are you Fucking Shitting me" I get the CS side of things but when the phones are ringing 3x a minute, the 5 minutes to walk a guy through a CS issue that has very little bearing on sales is tough. MHSA Is fortunate because they have a lot of employees, they can transfer to the gunsmiths vs the sales guys answering the calls, but imagine a smaller shop.

These guys at MHSA answer all these crazy ass calls daily with a smile. They never let on it's taking away from sales in hopes it creates more sales down the road. But those Bridge Building Calls take time and cost money, you have to factor that into the price of things.

 

[dirthead1]

I agree with those that say good customer service is worth something. It definitely is. I've had great service from Mile High and from CS Tactical. I bought a TT from CS earlier this year. It developed a very slight problem with the elevation turret. Functionally it was fine but just felt a bit funny. Sent it back for service. The fix was quick and it was perfect when I received it back. A few days after receiving it, my phone rang. I never answer calls from numbers that I don't recognize, but this one was from Nova Scotia, so I figured it was TT or Armament. Andy Weber (owner of TT) called me personally to make sure the issue I had experienced was corrected to my satisfaction. Now that is taking customer service to the next level. I recently ordered a Minox from Richard at CS Tactical, and we had a long conversation about the scope. Nothing but positives. I will continue to order from CS and Mile High, even if they aren't the absolute cheapest, because I know the service I will receive is worth it.

 

[Garyc]

I'm going to be on a bit of the different side.

I absolutely HATE with a passion companies that try to force consumers to pay higher prices by either horizontally or vertically controlling the sales market....

I'm with you!

MAP is inherently anti-free market, it's a scumbag way for companies to artificially raise prices and therefore profit margins. I wish it was outlawed, there's no place for schemes like it in a free marketplace. We break up monopolies under the RICO act, MAP removes competition between dealers and skirts very close to price fixing. I'd have no problem with the feds seeing if they could apply the RICO act to prosecute some of these companies for threatening dealers that sell for less than MAP.

 

[hic28]

As far as MAP is concerned, Nothing is more bullshit than deal registrations. If you have had the amazing pleasure of working with Cisco, PaloAlto, fortinet, crowdstrike or any of the other big name network security companies, you would hate deal reg as much as me.

 

[021411]

So what’s best practice? Call each vendor to ask for their best price but don’t mention pricing from other vendors? I have no problem with that. Just curious.

 

[pitdog85]

Since most of the vendors are here, question for yall. Do any vendors offer "hide pricing" for those of us in Australia?? Lots of US websites don't sell to Australia due to ITAR or whatever its called. This is BS because I bought a scope direct from swfa who shipped no probs, scopes are not illegal to send to Australia. I guest most of those websites just couldn't be bothered with international sales so use ITAR as an excuse which is there right to do.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@pitdog85
You are correct and incorrect in regards to "scopes are not illegal to send to Australia". There is a little more involved in the legalities other than just the terminology of "scopes".
Meaning....some scopes are INDEED regulated by ITAR (Department of State) and some scopes are only regulated by Department of Commerce.
The USML Sec 121 lays it out in much more detail.
Subsection F of Category 1 of the USML controls rifle scopes:
(f) Riflescopes manufactured to military specifications (See category XII(c) for controls on night sighting devices.)

Edited To Add:
Also---Several scope manufacturers, well any genre manufacturer in the industry really....will NOT allow dealers to sell/export as the manufacturers have invested lots of time and money in setting up regional distribution channels and such for that. Not individual dealers in the USA.
Same principle of not letting dealers submit for .gov contracts and such.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[longshot2000]

Since most of the vendors are here, question for yall. Do any vendors offer "hide pricing" for those of us in Australia?? Lots of US websites don't sell to Australia due to ITAR or whatever its called. This is BS because I bought a scope direct from swfa who shipped no probs, scopes are not illegal to send to Australia. I guest most of those websites just couldn't be bothered with international sales so use ITAR as an excuse which is there right to do.

Geez. Well, ITAR is like the third rail on the subway, except you dont know exactly where it is. You cannot just pull-up a list and see where ITAR products are. Generally speaking, if the US Military purchased it, it could be ITAR. That is a wide net. Then, even if not on the ITAR list, dealing with export regs is difficult and easy to trip upon. Some are real easy, like hunting scopes. Others, not so much. It should be easier, for sure.

 

[pitdog85]

Hi,

@pitdog85
You are correct and incorrect in regards to "scopes are not illegal to send to Australia". There is a little more involved in the legalities other than just the terminology of "scopes".
Meaning....some scopes are INDEED regulated by ITAR (Department of State) and some scopes are only regulated by Department of Commerce.
The USML Sec 121 lays it out in much more detail.
Subsection F of Category 1 of the USML controls rifle scopes:
(f) Riflescopes manufactured to military specifications (See category XII(c) for controls on night sighting devices.)

Edited To Add:
Also---Several scope manufacturers, well any genre manufacturer in the industry really....will NOT allow dealers to sell/export as the manufacturers have invested lots of time and money in setting up regional distribution channels and such for that. Not individual dealers in the USA.
Same principle of not letting dealers submit for .gov contracts and such.

Sincerely,
Theis

Thanks mate I can understand the second part about not being allowed to send scopes due to there already being dealers here for some scopes etc,

The first part about military spec stuff is red tape BS. Considering Australia, UK, NZ, Canada are extremely close allies the US are being paranoid to a whole nother level about this in my view. Considering we have many thousands of US soldiers down here training with out military all the time, does the US really think Australia with what a 100 year history with the US are going to join China and Russia and use there scopes against them!!!! lol.

Geez. Well, ITAR is like the third rail on the subway, except you dont know exactly where it is. You cannot just pull-up a list and see where ITAR products are. Generally speaking, if the US Military purchased it, it could be ITAR. That is a wide net. Then, even if not on the ITAR list, dealing with export regs is difficult and easy to trip upon. Some are real easy, like hunting scopes. Others, not so much. It should be easier, for sure.

Thanks man

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@pitdog85

Sadly it is about something worse than being paranoid....it is about $$$. Every export permit application submitted is $250 paid to the State Department by the exporter.

BUT....

There are some MAJOR changes coming to ITAR in regards to Category I, II, and III items. The DTAG (Defense Trade Advisory Group) are working with the Dept of State, Department of Commerce, Department of Treasury and BATFE at this very moment to release ITAR "control" on a majority of the products within those Categories and turn them over to Department of Commerce control.

Sincerely,
Theis