Rifle Scopes a note on Tangent Theta and pricing

[Threadcutter308]

Hi,

@pitdog85

Sadly it is about something worse than being paranoid....it is about $$$. Every export permit application submitted is $250 paid to the State Department by the exporter.

BUT....

There are some MAJOR changes coming to ITAR in regards to Category I, II, and III items. The DTAG (Defense Trade Advisory Group) are working with the Dept of State, Department of Commerce, Department of Treasury and BATFE at this very moment to release ITAR "control" on a majority of the products within those Categories and turn them over to Department of Commerce control.

Sincerely,
Theis

I read into this that this change is a good thing (?.......). The company I work for (Power Electronics) is not ITAR compliant and will likely never be. We do get inquiries periodically from potential customers who are either ITAR compliant themselves, or desire for us to become compliant. For better or worse, we are not likely to ever be compliant, so we must wish those potential customers well, but decline to sell to them. ITAR has always been a farce and it was obvious from the beginning that it would fall to pieces. Why ? Simple. WAY too much money involved/to be made. I sometimes wonder if the introduction of ITAR wasn't the Wall Street equivalent maneuver of "shaking out the weak hands"......It is only a matter of time. Whether the Department Commerce's control is an improvement from previous administrations, remains to be seen. They are just one more .gov agency, so I don't have my hopes set very high.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@Threadcutter308 PM Sent.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Threadcutter308]

Want to know something funny? A Dealer can list their inventory up at their exact dealers cost for sale, up front specify it's their exact cost and are making no money on it and someone knowing that will still want to pay less...

I got to thinking late last night. Every high school or college graduate should be made to work a retail job as well as serve on jury duty. Real eye openers as far as the abject stupidity of the general public. Once you’ve seen it for yourself, it goes a long way in explaining things like just how we get shitty politicians, over and over.....

 

[hk dave]

I got to thinking late last night. Every high school or college graduate should be made to work a retail job as well as serve on jury duty. Real eye openers as far as the abject stupidity of the general public. Once you’ve seen it for yourself, it goes a long way in explaining things like just how we get shitty politicians, over and over.....

 

[Threadcutter308]

View attachment 6988284

Prezactly.......

 

[DOA]

Want to know something funny? A Dealer can list their inventory up at their exact dealers cost for sale, up front specify it's their exact cost and are making no money on it and someone knowing that will still want to pay less...

I attribute that to car dealerships. Invoice isn’t actually invoice when you consider kickbacks, sales incentives, etc.

 

[koshkin]

View attachment 6988284

I disagree about her attractiveness, but no argument on the rest of it.

ILya

 

[CSTactical]

I attribute that to car dealerships. Invoice isn’t actually invoice when you consider kickbacks, sales incentives, etc.

Yeah that's a different industry, we don't have incentives like that...

 

[Nik H]

I disagree about her attractiveness, but no argument on the rest of it.

ILya

She has a face like a donkey that my parents had in Greece...and her policies are uglier than she is....but this isn't the Pit so I don't want to deviate.

This subject is or can be rather emotional as each person is different. I have a very different buying strategy as I generally spend a bit per year on equipment and I am a self avowed scope whore. I buy all my stuff from one dealer. The dealer can look me up and see my purchase history. I get an instant discount regardless of what I am buying and no matter how difficult it is to get. The discount is non-trivial as I always pay via EFT (like cash) and I have established a good historical record. Will it be the cheapest price, maybe or maybe not. Will it be close...I know it will.

The shopping around and negotiating a deal to get a couple more % off is a waste of my time. What is another couple of % on a $4,600 scope...less than $100....big deal. A car is the only thing I negotiate as the extra savings are several thousand versus a couple of hundred max.

The other aspect to my approach is dealer service. If I have a problem, it is taken care of and quickly.

 

[DOA]

Yeah that's a different industry, we don't have incentives like that...

Exactly, but the general public doesn't know that. If a customer, dealer shops a scope, and one dealer quotes, say 1000 dollars and the next dealer quotes 990 dealer cost, the consumer is STILL going to think there is profit there, just like a car dealership.

 

[hk dave]

I disagree about her attractiveness, but no argument on the rest of it.

ILya

Lol need my glasses. I thought it said NOT not HOT. She def not hot.

 

[ophious]

So what is the real take-away here? What is the best price for a TT525P that you have found and from who!????

 

[CSTactical]

Exactly, but the general public doesn't know that. If a customer, dealer shops a scope, and one dealer quotes, say 1000 dollars and the next dealer quotes 990 dealer cost, the consumer is STILL going to think there is profit there, just like a car dealership.

Assumptions are a MFer...


So this is semi-related since it involves the firearms industry but in the state of California. California gun dealers are not the cheapest as it's expensive and difficult to have a business, harder for a small business and even way more difficult to be a gun shop. We're stuck with a short list of handguns that we can sell new to residents that are not sworn Peace Officers, and let's not even talk about semi auto long guns
CA residents use the internet to look for prices on firearms yet don't realize that they can't legally purchase them many times (Not to mention it's not lawful for even a shop without proper licensing) so they may try to transfer a firearm to the CA dealer to have it sent back to it's original FFL.
Others see pricing at Bud's Gun Shop for example and want to buy from them and transfer it in, well most dealers charge an additional $100 as it needs to be held for at least 10 days and there's double the paperwork plus labor compared to other states. For those that don't know, Firearms are pretty low margin just an FYI. Well the industry is tanking here, about a dozen shops will be closed locally this past two years and counting. Spending that money at out of state dealers for them to profit and transferring it to a CA FFL has consequences. Now many of these places that did those transfers are gone. Having someone tell you that they will drive hours away to save $30 on a Glock is insanity, what's your time worth?

 

[DOA]

Assumptions are a MFer...


So this is semi-related since it involves the firearms industry but in the state of California. California gun dealers are not the cheapest as it's expensive and difficult to have a business, harder for a small business and even way more difficult to be a gun shop. We're stuck with a short list of handguns that we can sell new to residents that are not sworn Peace Officers, and let's not even talk about semi auto long guns
CA residents use the internet to look for prices on firearms yet don't realize that they can't legally purchase them many times (Not to mention it's not lawful for even a shop without proper licensing) so they may try to transfer a firearm to the CA dealer to have it sent back to it's original FFL.
Others see pricing at Bud's Gun Shop for example and want to buy from them and transfer it in, well most dealers charge an additional $100 as it needs to be held for at least 10 days and there's double the paperwork plus labor compared to other states. For those that don't know, Firearms are pretty low margin just an FYI. Well the industry is tanking here, about a dozen shops will be closed locally this past two years and counting. Spending that money at out of state dealers for them to profit and transferring it to a CA FFL has consequences. Now many of these places that did those transfers are gone. Having someone tell you that they will drive hours away to save $30 on a Glock is insanity, what's your time worth?

I hear ya. I live in SoCal, eight hours south of you.

 

[magtech]

Damn you guys whine alot. Might as well go talk to the wife.

 

[cleric]

So I will say that as someone that has worked retail and worked in small business retail I see both side of the discussion...

Map “protects” big name dealer and customers who are unaware. My friend bought his first big scope and it was a vortex. When I asked if he called for the better price he was confused. I explained everyone gets a better price just got to call. He does not like vortex now as a result.

I am all for dealers selling for whatever prices they want. I know companies like BH photo where services is hard to come by but price is easy.

In the end people suck and companies shouldn’t dictate what dealers do

 

[DOA]

Damn you guys whine alot. Might as well go talk to the wife.

Where do you think I got it from?

 

[Mute]

MAP has its pros and cons like anything else. For my products I'm willing to provide the best deal I can offer and if I can't beat another dealer's price so be it. No harm, no foul. I'm a consumer also and understand trying to get the best deal for your money, but there are plenty of buyers who will lie to you, but that doesn't change my policy. If I give you the discount, it means I can afford to do so even if it means less profit for me. I won't lose money to beat another vendor.

 

[hk dave]

Mute, what are you a dealer of?

 

[hk dave]

Please say crack.

 

[CBDR]

Capitalism is a slippery slope. Do your research. The buyer always has the advantage. Learning the ropes is where we take a beating.
Love my TT, paid to much but life is short.

 

[Steel+Killer]

People love capitalism when it works in their favor, but want to bitch about it when it doesn't.......Ha Ha

 

[vmpglenn]

People love capitalism when it works in their favor, but want to bitch about it when it doesn't.......Ha Ha

Capitalism? LOL.

There is no capitalism because everything distorts the free market: inaccurate flow of information, monopoly pricing power, access to capital, and on and on.

Take MAP for example as it applies to capitalism. If you remove MAP, what happens when an Amazon comes into your market space and, because they have access to capital, buys inventory by the container-ship full, prices 2% above cost, and just waits for every other dealer to die? Then, when this mammoth dealer is the only game in town, they basically can charge whatever they want. Can't happen, you say. Bull. It can, has, and will happen.

 

[Mute]

Mute, what are you a dealer of?

I'm a dealer for Aero Precision, Ballistic Advantage, Elftmann Tactical, Ear-Inc and several other manufacturers. However, given the way the economy is going for gun related products in CA I may have to consider your crack suggestion.

 

[FALex]

This is an interesting discussion. I am not a dealer, only a buyer. I've called companies to see if they sell XYZ product below MAP. I am guilty of calling and asking for a price match or for a vendor to beat a certain price but I don't do it unless A) I can prove it and B) the item is actually in stock from the other vendor. I don't necessarily view this as being a douche or what not, it's capitalism at it's finest and I happen to be a cheap fucker.

From my point of view, and I could be dead wrong, of course, but it seems as if there are more distributors getting involved in direct-to-customer sales, which really throws a wrench into things.

One thing is for certain, this market is pretty damn nasty for sellers but damn good for buyers.

 

[koshkin]

With internet being what it is, I suspect that over time more and more companies are going to go straight to consumer, cutting out all the middle men. That way the consumer pays less and the company makes more. However, that obviously stinks for the distributors and dealers. That will allso engate the effect of customer service by the above mentioned dealers.

ILya

 

[superde]

Capitalism? LOL.

There is no capitalism because everything distorts the free market: inaccurate flow of information, monopoly pricing power, access to capital, and on and on.

Take MAP for example as it applies to capitalism. If you remove MAP, what happens when an Amazon comes into your market space and, because they have access to capital, buys inventory by the container-ship full, prices 2% above cost, and just waits for every other dealer to die? Then, when this mammoth dealer is the only game in town, they basically can charge whatever they want. Can't happen, you say. Bull. It can, has, and will happen.

This^^^^^

 

[supercorndogs]

Capitalism? LOL.

There is no capitalism because everything distorts the free market: inaccurate flow of information, monopoly pricing power, access to capital, and on and on.

Take MAP for example as it applies to capitalism. If you remove MAP, what happens when an Amazon comes into your market space and, because they have access to capital, buys inventory by the container-ship full, prices 2% above cost, and just waits for every other dealer to die? Then, when this mammoth dealer is the only game in town, they basically can charge whatever they want. Can't happen, you say. Bull. It can, has, and will happen.

They could try to charge whatever they want, for this mythical single item they have cornered the market on, but if they tried to charge too much, that will open the door for little guys to start pooping up again and undercutting them. Capitalism is a two way street.

 

[cleric]

With internet being what it is, I suspect that over time more and more companies are going to go straight to consumer, cutting out all the middle men. That way the consumer pays the same and the company makes more. However, that obviously stinks for the distributors and dealers. That will allso engate the effect of customer service by the above mentioned dealers.

ILya

Fixed it for you

 

[Apollo1218]

With internet being what it is, I suspect that over time more and more companies are going to go straight to consumer, cutting out all the middle men. That way the consumer pays less and the company makes more. However, that obviously stinks for the distributors and dealers. That will allso engate the effect of customer service by the above mentioned dealers.

ILya

I disagree. I don’t believe the manufacturer wants to deal directly with the consumer. It’s more than likely a great pain in the ass, including the numerous phone calls regarding all types of BS. That’s what the dealers get paid for, and they probably are underpaid.
Just my opinion.

 

[The King]

Realize the manufacturer soaks up the distributors profit. AND since the manufacturer made the thing there is no asking the manufacturer how shit works while putting the customer on hold. No deciphering a warranty process. No calls to compare products your company doesn’t make.

But then again, no products on shelves to look at.

I disagree. I don’t believe the manufacturer wants to deal directly with the consumer. It’s more than likely a great pain in the ass, including the numerous phone calls regarding all types of BS. That’s what the dealers get paid for, and they probably are underpaid.
Just my opinion.

 

[vmpglenn]

But then again, no products on shelves to look at.

Frankly I'd rather see an extended Youtube video review or a written review on SH than try to get any info from the counter person at Cabela's or your random local gun store. Even shouldering a blue gun with an optic mounted inside an artificially lit store won't tell you a whole lot, other than the glass works fine in that environment.

 

[The King]

By the time I’m wanting to look at an optic, I have most of the “non-hands-on” data i need.

What I do in the retail stops is:

1. I check out knobs and controls, illumination, reticle business etc. Comparison shop if I can with others in the same bucket.
2. If i need it now i buy it.
3. If it’s a place I like that isn’t trying to soak me, I buy it.

Frankly I'd rather see an extended Youtube video review or a written review on SH than try to get any info from the counter person at Cabela's or your random local gun store. Even shouldering a blue gun with an optic mounted inside an artificially lit store won't tell you a whole lot, other than the glass works fine in that environment.

 

[rsb]

Thanks mate I can understand the second part about not being allowed to send scopes due to there already being dealers here for some scopes etc,

The first part about military spec stuff is red tape BS. Considering Australia, UK, NZ, Canada are extremely close allies the US are being paranoid to a whole nother level about this in my view. Considering we have many thousands of US soldiers down here training with out military all the time, does the US really think Australia with what a 100 year history with the US are going to join China and Russia and use there scopes against them!!!! lol.



Thanks man

Training with Aussies is always a blast. These guys are hilarious.

 

[Snipe260]

I will say this about the companies,

Last week I went to MHSA to ship a rifle, and My Bad, it was Inventory Weekend so MHSA was technically closed to the Public but they were still there. I had to stay out of the house for a few hours, so I decided to help and answer the phones for them as they still rang off the hook. It was basically Me and Randy on the phones with everyone else working their massive inventory.

For every 10 calls, only 2 were "Sales" calls, I was kinda shocked. All the other calls were "Questions or Customer Service Calls".

Nothing crazy, "Hi, I bought a Spuhr mount from you, opened the box, which ring is the front ring vs the back" simple sure but takes time to answer.

The funniest and I never mentioned it,

When I answered the phone I just said, Mile Shooting, vs what most of the regular employees do, Hi Mile High Shooting this is Mike"... so nobody knew I was answering the phone. Guy calls (and he is a member here) He tells me he bought a Accu_Shot Mono Pod for his AI AT rifle and wanted to know how to mount it. So I get kinda technical and happened to have Adam standing there, so while on Hold I go over everything with Adam, including pulling the Model Numbers on the 2 Different Models for the AI Rifles. The AT vs the Legacy. I walk the guy through the process of trimming the skins and it's all good, a 5-minute call front to back.

Fast forward, I head home and the guy posted on here the same question, even stating he called MHSA, but he still was not sure, so he asked here a second time. I get it, measure twice cut once, but still.

There is a reason to pay these guys and not Chase Deals and push them into a corner. They work a fuck ton harder than you think on stuff that has nothing to do with Sales. To be Frank, if it was my company and you called me about a CS question from stuff you bought somewhere else I would probably be like, "Are you Fucking Shitting me" I get the CS side of things but when the phones are ringing 3x a minute, the 5 minutes to walk a guy through a CS issue that has very little bearing on sales is tough. MHSA Is fortunate because they have a lot of employees, they can transfer to the gunsmiths vs the sales guys answering the calls, but imagine a smaller shop.

These guys at MHSA answer all these crazy ass calls daily with a smile. They never let on it's taking away from sales in hopes it creates more sales down the road. But those Bridge Building Calls take time and cost money, you have to factor that into the price of things.

You mean nobody called about your cars extended warranty?

 

[rsb]

You mean nobody called about your cars extended warranty?

Now you mentioned it, why yes, I bought a one year old car at a good price a month or two ago. Now I get two or three fictional official warranty expiration warnings a week that I must buy their crap today. Or else.?

 

[koshkin]

I disagree. I don’t believe the manufacturer wants to deal directly with the consumer. It’s more than likely a great pain in the ass, including the numerous phone calls regarding all types of BS. That’s what the dealers get paid for, and they probably are underpaid.
Just my opinion.

You may be right. Time will tell. However, the manufacturers already have so much direct customer interaction via their customer service center, that adding a more extensive fullfillment operation may not be all that difficult.

ILya