A surprise in every box?

[NotMOA]

I was lot testing some Eley Tenex in my Tikka T1x the other day and this happened:

A 3.6 inch group? So what happened? I am pretty sure it wasn't me. Not that I don't yank a round off course every now and then but... This was the first 5 round string from this lot of ammo. The shots prior to this were also Eley Tenex but a different lot. I don't have a chronograph so no idea what the velocity was. I ended up ordering a different lot that performed better but this lot actually had pretty decent results excluding this group. Target was shot at 100 yards with very little if any wind. I feel like Eley owes me $.40. I have not shot much premium ammo. Is this something I can expect every now and then? I would add that prior to this the worst 100 yard group I had recorded was a 2.84 inch group from Norma Tac.

 

[RTH1800]

@justin amateur
1,2,3….

 

[justin amateur]

RT....how did you know I was home?

It's rimfire Not....mass produced ammunition where profit is the prime motivation.
Variations in components and assembly, primer/powder amounts/chemistry happen.
Lot grading is done by testing small samples (compared to the total batch size).
Sometimes the statistical sampling doesn't catch all the problems.
It's rimfire, we pays our money, we takes our chances.
Welcome to the assembly line lottery.

Impact 3 inches more or less below the rest at 100 yards.
3 divide by 0.25 = 12

12 x 10 fps = 120 fps difference in mv from that cartridge.

Weak charge or case split when fired, allowing pressure bleed.

 

[RTH1800]

Or damaged bullet. Could have been below brass on heal.

 

[hlee]

I shot a NRL22 style match a couple of years ago where I dropped at least 5 points due to bullets inexplicably going wild. This was with Lapua CenterX. It is what it is.

 

[camocorvette]

Without a chronograph on it, I've noticed sometimes you can call a flier by the report of the rifle. Some louder, gonna hit higher, little quieter, gonna hit lower.
Had that flier shit with biathlon, center x, eley match and sk match.
Not as much as lesser tier ammo. But it happens.

 

[J_D]

I had a box of Center X do the same to me. Never had an issue with ammo that bad until last week. It worked great in another rifle.

I will test much more before I go out now.

 

[Colt45guy]

I've got 5 boxes of Eley Match left from a brick--this stuff patterns like a shotgun--3+ inches at 50 yards and at 100 yards it's almost a foot. This is in both a B14R and a built 10/22. (Lot# 1020-05076)

Federal Champion shoots better. I need to shoot it because every time I look at it and remember how much it cost, I get pissed off all over again.

 

[justin amateur]

Don't make the mistake of thinking that all the cartridges in a brick or box are identical.
Easy to prove. Use a ballistic chronograph when testing ammunition.
Very rarely will you produce duplicate muzzle velocities.
When you do, rarely do the projectiles impact in the same spot,
even when fired in a testing tunnel from a fixture.
There are so many things that can go wrong during
the manufacture and assembly of the components
that it's a wonder we obtain predictable trajectories at all.
Even when the label reads Tenex, R50, X-Act or Fiocchi 320.
Variations in results are usually due to differences in the cartridges
not because of a rifle's affinity for a particular label.

My rifle likes CenterX too, all day long,
right up until I got a brick that slipped past batch testing.

It's not about the label, rifles are illiterate.
Cartridge quality is everything.

 

[68hoyt]

I might add the opposite also happens , when the manufacturer is testing the top tier ammo and they get a couple of bad cartridges in the test lot , the the top tier ammo get sold at a second tier label ,,,,,and people / purchasers/consumers discuss how they bought a case of second tier ammo that shoots better than the tier ammo they tested

 

[justin amateur]

 

[NotMOA]

You guys are depressing. I am going to find another forum where all the rimfires shoot half MOA with Rem buckets O bullets all day long as long as I do my part.

I have learned a lot in a short period of time on this forum from the 50 @ 100 and 200 threads and the 6x5 challenge. The Tenex I bought will probably be saved for special occasions and I will continue to rely on CCI-SV unless I can find a really good lot of Center x. I know there is one out there that is MOA all day long.

 

[Williwaw]

There is a thread that is currently active on Rimfire Accuracy that touches on this. A couple very credible 50yd BR guys mention that there IS ONE IN EVERY BOX ... sometimes more. My experience with CenterX suggests the same. I'd say an average of 2 suspect rounds in 50 with one of those pretty obvious.

 

[NotMOA]

Thanks for that Williwaw. I looked up the thread https://www.rimfireaccuracy.com/For...al-of-a-match-target-being-shot-my-way.30055/. Those guys are taking it to a whole different level.

 

[justin amateur]

Hey Not.......I can shoot sub moa 5 shot groups all day long with RGB's.

No, stop grinning, I mean it, I really can.
I'd show you pics but the muzzle flash keeps igniting my targets.

 

[RTH1800]

Justin,
You are absolutely the most pessimistic shooter I know. Also one of my favorite posters on this site.
I’m planning on shooting a wallet group and posting it up soon.

 

[justin amateur]

I am not a pessimist.
I'm an optimist.
Do you know how you can tell?
I still think I can produce a sub moa 50 shot group at 100 yards, with rimfire.

That, plus I'm positive things will go wrong.

 

[1813Benny]

A pessimist is an optimist with experience.

 

[grauhanen]

When someone finds a box of ammo -- even upper tier ammo -- that has one or more rounds that don't go where they're supposed to go, he shouldn't be too surprised. That's the nature of ammo.

There's a reason why serious BR shooters test and test and test. They understand that perfect .22LR ammo doesn't exist, and near-perfect ammo is uncommon enough that it must be searched for by frequent testing.

The name on the box is never a guarantee of performance.

How many errant rounds there will be in a box -- whether it's Center X, Midas +, or X-Act, or similar Eley varieties -- will vary from lot to lot. Even in the same lot it can vary from one brick or box to the next. Many lots of CX, for example, will have errant rounds in each box, some more than others. A few lots of CX will have very few errant rounds. Those lots are the ones to test for.

The same is true of higher grades of each make of match ammo, perhaps with more lots having fewer errant rounds.

Impact 3 inches more or less below the rest at 100 yards.
3 divide by 0.25 = 12

12 x 10 fps = 120 fps difference in mv from that cartridge.

This is true if the belief is that only MV differences (and wind) explain where bullets strike on the target.

As RTH1800 notes, the cause of unexpected POI can be related to imperfect heel configuration. Even if the shot is low by comparison it can be the result of bullet imperfection. Unseen bullet imperfections are undetectable by the shooter, and can't be dismissed unless chronograph information indicates that MV is responsible for what happens on the target.

Heel damage can also explain shots going to the left or right, regardless of wind or its absence. It can cause shots to strike higher or lower than the round's MV would predict.

 

[1813Benny]

If I remember the article about Eley ammunition correctly, their engineers identified a total of 700 primary, secondary and tertiary factors that impacted accuracy. Welcome to the world of rimfire - pour the bourbon sit back and read on.....

 

[brianf]

its all about the AQL, standard deviations, major and minor findings, protocols etc, per LOT or portion of lot

how many per x rounds are "x" deviations off specified range of parameters

do they find 1 and then escalate to the next level of testing

do they find 1 and automatically reduce the entire lot from match

are lot numbers really lot numbers or are they combinations of multiple production lots and a average of X lots combined and their testing results combined, then re-segregated or re-designated for sale

there are a million ways to skin the quality cat/QCU , depending on customer, management, ownership and regulatory standards

....after all that its still rimfire lol

 

[justin amateur]

Whatever testing and grading protocol being used, it has issues Brian.
Tenex showing 80 fps ES, Midas+ spitting strays, R50 showing 1.5 inch vertical at 100 yards.

That ain't match grade ammunition.
I know, profit comes first, it's a business.
Still, it might be time to increase sample sizes.

 

[littlesister]

I might add the opposite also happens , when the manufacturer is testing the top tier ammo and they get a couple of bad cartridges in the test lot , the the top tier ammo get sold at a second tier label ,,,,,and people / purchasers/consumers discuss how they bought a case of second tier ammo that shoots better than the tier ammo they tes

Whatever testing and grading protocol being used, it has issues Brian.
Tenex showing 80 fps ES, Midas+ spitting strays, R50 showing 1.5 inch vertical at 100 yards.

That ain't match grade ammunition.
I know, profit comes first, it's a business.
Still, it might be time to increase sample sizes.

Well guys, It's all about the odds! Odds of getting flyers are supposed to go down as the grade of ammo goes up. But that is only true up to a point. It's supposed to be easier to find a good lot of Midas than centerX. Same for Eley 10X and BB. I have found that not to be the case. I have stopped testing 10X and Midas . Only CenterX and BB. After all both grades are produced by the same machines Separated by some magical grading method which I don't buy into anymore. One other point. If a killer lot is ever produced a normal shooter like myself will never get a chance to buy it!

 

[NotMOA]

Article referenced by 1813Benny I believe.
"Answering the challenge, Eley engineers identified 50 primary variables, such as bullet mass, case internal volume, and propellant charge mass. Then they determined 200 secondary variables, including things like the ambient humidity in the assembly facility, the metallurgy of the cases, and human competence. Finally, they identified 700 tertiary variables. These subtle things turned out to be the ultimate keys. One example is the weather conditions in the country where the propellant powder is manufactured on the day that particular lot of powder was mixed. Another is manufacturing "lots" of Tenex that consist of one day's run from a single loading machine because the weather is different each day." Full article linked below.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/eley-ammunition-accuracy-and-innovation/99080

 

[Fig]

There is a thread that is currently active on Rimfire Accuracy that touches on this. A couple very credible 50yd BR guys mention that there IS ONE IN EVERY BOX ... sometimes more. My experience with CenterX suggests the same. I'd say an average of 2 suspect rounds in 50 with one of those pretty obvious.

That's right, and once you become really good you can pick that one or two out of the box before you start shooting them. It takes practice.

 

[Fig]

When before I get to the match dump all my tenex cartridges in a:

I carry the bucket around with me. I like to see the reactions I get as I load 'em up between stages.

 

[nockhunter]

When before I get to the match dump all my tenex cartridges in a:

I carry the bucket around with me. I like to see the reactions I get as I load 'em up between stages.

I've been saying for a long time that I was gonna do that!

Mike

 

[littlepod]

I've seen a few bum rounds in Eley Match, Tenex and I noticed that if I don't clean my chamber face every 50 rounds or so, that wax buildup actually gets between the rim and the chamber face causing an inconsistent ignition. Once I started remembering to wipe the chamber face, I've not seen any issues.

My friend with a CZ would get a flyer like once every 20 rounds or so. He switched to a Vudoo and it went away. Maybe the control fed aspect of the Vudoo kept the rounds consistent, and maybe once in a while the CZ knicked the bullet? We weren't exactly sure.

 

[Williwaw]

Whenever I see the title of this thread I am reminded of two of my favorite family stories.

The first comes from my ladies family. They lived in a remote northern location and received their annual resupply once a year by sea-lift. Needless to say it was a busy time storing away a years worth of canned goods all at once. After the adults were done the kids took it upon themselves to do their part. They had seen all the packaging being removed and finished the job. They removed the label off of every can in the pantry. Their mother spent a whole year opening random cans looking for supper and then trying to think of ways to use up the by catch.

I'm the central character in the second story. We were visiting the family farm and my grandma was planting the garden. Unbeknownst to all I went and got all of the billiard balls and planted them in the garden. When the balls were found to be missing I was the main suspect but they couldn't make me talk ... I knew I was in the clear because I had buried the evidence. Those balls were showing up for years whenever that garden was roto-tilled.

Have a good weekend everyone.

 

[grauhanen]

As noted in previous posts, having a flier or two or more per box of match ammo is not unusual -- even if it's a top tier variety.

In Rifleman's Guide to Rimfire Ammunition author Steven Boelter, shooter and former president of Anschutz North America, made the following observations.

If you find that your competition ammunition contains a fair number of fliers, maybe four or more in a single box of 50 rounds, you need to be aware of that and find a new batch [lot] or manufacturer, especially for competition use. I have heard some of the more "well known" Benchrest shooters claim that high-quality match grade ammunition should contain no more than a single flier per 150 rounds. Let me be the first to wish you the best of luck in finding that lot of ammunition. Maybe if you have the luxury of being an ammunition dealer with the oppotunity to test various lots of pmium ammunition, then it might be a reasonable goal. For the rest of us, I think that no more than a few fliers in a single box is more realistic. During the course of testing for this book, on average I would see at least a few fliers per 50-round box of match ammunition, regardless of cost or manufacture. That's just is a fact of life; the ammunition is produced by machines, some in huge lot runs, so while they are close to being perfect, nothing is 100-percent in this industry.

The long and short of it is that even when shooters test in testing facilities the ammo they test is likely to have a flier or more per box. There aren't many lots without a flier or more per box. If the flier doesn't appear in the rounds selected from the box that's tested, that doesn't mean it's not there. If that lot is selected for purchase, the surprises will appear later.

 

[JG26_Irish]

Lots of theories and some better than others. I would add one more factor. How old was the Tennex? How was it stored before you received it? I know you do not know but I do have a theory. Tennex (10x) is Eley's flagship match ammo and when purchased in fresh recently manufactured lots from the distributor, it can be very, very good. However, I am not an Olympic shooter (close but not, lol) and do not buy mass amounts of 10x. It just is priced outside of my needs. Most of us fall in the same category. Much of the 10x we can buy sits on the shelves or worse in a hot/cold warehouse for months or years before we get it. Like it or not, ammo is comprised of a chemical propellant and primer and when exposed to heat mostly tends to breakdown. When consumed early in its shelf life, this is not an issue but if left for long periods and many temperature cycles, it will begin to breakdown. Since most of us do not need or want mass amounts of 10x, it does not sell as rapidly as Eley black or other lower priced brands. Thus it sits and deteriorates and by the time we do buy it, it is not what it once was. Now if we purchase from a high volume supplier who moves large volumes of 10x, this is less of an issue. But most of us do not. The same is true for Lapua Midas+ and Xact.

In all my years of Rimfire shooting, I have never had a lot of 10x that shot better than my best lots of Eley Black. I have never had a lot of Xact that shot better than Midas+ or CX with one notable exception. I hated Midas+ for years until I had the opportunity to buy several bricks that had just arrived into the USA about 3moths earlier. Those shot the best of any ammo, I have ever had. So, why is it that the top premium brands sometimes fail to perform? I think that some of that is due to the premium brands sitting on the shelf longer before sale. I could be wrong. What do you think?

 

[justin amateur]

Rough handling during shipping.
The more hands involved, the more chances of jolting and dropping.
Some of my deliveries look like they fell off the truck, several times.
Pulled some Tenex apart, primer bits were mixed into the powder.
That can't be good.

Poor storage during sea transport.
Excess heat, humidity in the freight containers on deck.
Cold/hot in the warehouse and in the trailer.

 

[RTH1800]

Lots of theories and some better than others. I would add one more factor. How old was the Tennex? How was it stored before you received it? I know you do not know but I do have a theory. Tennex (10x) is Eley's flagship match ammo and when purchased in fresh recently manufactured lots from the distributor, it can be very, very good. However, I am not an Olympic shooter (close but not, lol) and do not buy mass amounts of 10x. It just is priced outside of my needs. Most of us fall in the same category. Much of the 10x we can buy sits on the shelves or worse in a hot/cold warehouse for months or years before we get it. Like it or not, ammo is comprised of a chemical propellant and primer and when exposed to heat mostly tends to breakdown. When consumed early in its shelf life, this is not an issue but if left for long periods and many temperature cycles, it will begin to breakdown. Since most of us do not need or want mass amounts of 10x, it does not sell as rapidly as Eley black or other lower priced brands. Thus it sits and deteriorates and by the time we do buy it, it is not what it once was. Now if we purchase from a high volume supplier who moves large volumes of 10x, this is less of an issue. But most of us do not. The same is true for Lapua Midas+ and Xact.

In all my years of Rimfire shooting, I have never had a lot of 10x that shot better than my best lots of Eley Black. I have never had a lot of Xact that shot better than Midas+ or CX with one notable exception. I hated Midas+ for years until I had the opportunity to buy several bricks that had just arrived into the USA about 3moths earlier. Those shot the best of any ammo, I have ever had. So, why is it that the top premium brands sometimes fail to perform? I think that some of that is due to the premium brands sitting on the shelf longer before sale. I could be wrong. What do you think?

This is very likely accurate

 

[grauhanen]

Lots of theories and some better than others. I would add one more factor. How old was the Tennex? How was it stored before you received it? I know you do not know but I do have a theory. Tennex (10x) is Eley's flagship match ammo and when purchased in fresh recently manufactured lots from the distributor, it can be very, very good. However, I am not an Olympic shooter (close but not, lol) and do not buy mass amounts of 10x. It just is priced outside of my needs. Most of us fall in the same category. Much of the 10x we can buy sits on the shelves or worse in a hot/cold warehouse for months or years before we get it. Like it or not, ammo is comprised of a chemical propellant and primer and when exposed to heat mostly tends to breakdown. When consumed early in its shelf life, this is not an issue but if left for long periods and many temperature cycles, it will begin to breakdown. Since most of us do not need or want mass amounts of 10x, it does not sell as rapidly as Eley black or other lower priced brands. Thus it sits and deteriorates and by the time we do buy it, it is not what it once was. Now if we purchase from a high volume supplier who moves large volumes of 10x, this is less of an issue. But most of us do not. The same is true for Lapua Midas+ and Xact.

In all my years of Rimfire shooting, I have never had a lot of 10x that shot better than my best lots of Eley Black. I have never had a lot of Xact that shot better than Midas+ or CX with one notable exception. I hated Midas+ for years until I had the opportunity to buy several bricks that had just arrived into the USA about 3moths earlier. Those shot the best of any ammo, I have ever had. So, why is it that the top premium brands sometimes fail to perform? I think that some of that is due to the premium brands sitting on the shelf longer before sale. I could be wrong. What do you think?

Some theories are always better than others. Ammo age and how it's been stored may be two different theories, one being age, the other how ammo is stored.

As long as it's been stored properly, .22LR ammo doesn't have a shelf life. Correct storage requires cool, dry, indoor conditions. If ammo sellers don't have such storage conditions they may be inviting problems for ammo stored over a longer period of time. Shooters should avoid ammo storage conditions that are hot and humid.

The greatest problem arising from long storage is the risk of the lubricant drying out, leaving a whitish, chalky appearance. This may contribute to a reduction in accuracy. (Lones Wigger, the great American shooter, observed in 1984 "I shot some old stuff one year at the National Matches that was white and chalky. When I tested, it shot better than anything else I had, so I used it with little problem.")

Since ammo stored under good conditions will last for years, it's worth noting that older unsold lots of upper tier varieties held by ammo dealers are probably unsold for the reason that serious shooters don't buy ammo without testing it. If it performs poorly, it is less likely to be sold. These lots of ammo get sold to buyers who don't test before buying.

Top names of ammo such as Tenex and X-Act or Midas + all have better and worse lots, with fewer and more fliers.

Shooters who obtain top tier ammo by buying random lots without testing may get those lots that otherwise are less likely to sell. That is to say, if a random buyer doesn't test, the dealer may wish to sell him ammo from inventory that doesn't sell because of performance. As long as ammo dealers aren't disregarding proper storage requirements, the ammo that doesn't shoot well is simply ammo that doesn't shoot well.

For more details on .22LR ammo shelf life, see https://www.killoughshootingsports.com/blog/post/how-long-can-you-store-22lr-ammunition

and

An NRA Shooting Sports Journal | Is There A Shelf Life For .22 LR Ammunition?

Some say that with proper care, one can extend the life of rimfire ammunition. Learn what Lones Wigger had to say about it at a 1984 NRA Silhouette National Championship seminar.

www.ssusa.org

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I was lot testing some Eley Tenex in my Tikka T1x the other day and this happened:
View attachment 7921452
A 3.6 inch group? So what happened? I am pretty sure it wasn't me. Not that I don't yank a round off course every now and then but... This was the first 5 round string from this lot of ammo. The shots prior to this were also Eley Tenex but a different lot. I don't have a chronograph so no idea what the velocity was. I ended up ordering a different lot that performed better but this lot actually had pretty decent results excluding this group. Target was shot at 100 yards with very little if any wind. I feel like Eley owes me $.40. I have not shot much premium ammo. Is this something I can expect every now and then? I would add that prior to this the worst 100 yard group I had recorded was a 2.84 inch group from Norma Tac.

Were you using flags? at 100yds. there are things happening you can't see and without flags hard to judge why a shot went where it did and even with flags you can miss a condition change.
the only surprises in this box of CX at 100 are where I missed the condition change. what I learned shooting 50 at 100 it is boring as hell and IMO a waste of ammo. FYI, this was the first time this lot was shot in this rifle no lot testing. the ring around the center dot is 1.5" conditions were excellent 3-5 mph but even then, I put 3 outside the group

Lee

 

[NotMOA]

The Lot was manufactured in 2022. I don't have wind flags but there is a lot of vegetation next to the range that I watch. The day was chosen specifically for lack of wind because the only thing I know about shooting in the wind at this point is to not do it. I had one failure to fire (on the first primer strike, it went on the second) but I don't remember if it was this lot number or not. I was concerned for a few minutes that I was getting light primer strikes but I didn't have other issues as I continued to shoot. I can't definitively say it wasn't the wind but I don't think it was.

 

[justin amateur]

@Hi-NV Shooter ....morning Lee.

I hear ya', sending 50 shots at a single aimpoint requires a touch of OCD.
If you'd like to send 50 at 100 in a less boring manner, try this...

Pick up a roll of 3/4 inch peel and stick dots at y'er local office/school supply store.
Hi-V green or orange works well.
Stick ten of them on a cardboard backer and hang them out at 100 yards.
5 shot groups and attempt to meet the requirements of Rule #1 - Hit what you aim at.
What's entertaining is, that with a 22lr and best edge scoring,
5 shots that touch that 3/4 inch dot, anywhere, result in a sub moa group.
dot diameter plus half bullet diameter plus half bullet diameter. 0.75" + 0.11" + 0.11" = 0.97 inch center to center.
Even if all 5 shots only nick the outer edge of the dot, still a 0.97" 5 shot group.

How many of you could equal these results at 100 yards?

Custom CZ 452 at 100 yards off a bench

I can't, not with the the less expensive ammo I'm currently trying.

Those dots are the kill zone on the skull of a southern grey squirrel.
Imagine attempting that offhand at 100 yards.

 

[grauhanen]

the only surprises in this box of CX at 100 are where I missed the condition change. what I learned shooting 50 at 100 it is boring as hell and IMO a waste of ammo. FYI, this was the first time this lot was shot in this rifle no lot testing. the ring around the center dot is 1.5" conditions were excellent 3-5 mph but even then, I put 3 outside the group

Lee

Two questions, Lee.

Was the aimpoint elsewhere on the target -- somewhere where it wouldn't be eradicated by the growing group of 50?

Why must the 3 shots outside the group be condition-related rather than surprises? Having one or more surprises in a box of CX isn't unusual. Having none is.

 

[RTH1800]

@justin amateur

I respect what you do in testing.

I do notice you seem to overemphasize hitting what you aim at. Do you have an issue with doing so? My rimfires hold excellent zeros.

Your focus on hitting the aiming point coupled with shooting “the whole box” would destroy my aiming point. At 50 yards I shoot at a 1/4” dot.

First thing I do is dial up away from my aiming point if I am going to shoot a string.

Hitting the aiming point is very basic stuff.

This at 100 yards on half inch dot with 6x Unertl.

 

[justin amateur]

Hey RT.....the purpose of a rifle is to put a projectile into what you aim at, right?

If you shoot 5 shots and they impact in a nice tight group most folks are ecstatic.
I thought that was doing quite well as I was producing some very nice, tiny clusters, consistently,
until I noticed one very irritating thing, those clusters were shifting relative to my point of aim.
Sure I was showing consistent trajectories for those 5 shots, but not consistent to where I was aiming.
When I started building aggregate group sizes for 25 or 50 shots, it proved my results were not sub-moa.
I was at 2 and 3 moa relative to where I was aiming. That's when I took up those 50 shots at a single aimpoint.
Also about the time the phrase "random act of accuracy" became part of my vocabulary.

Now Rule #1..."Hit what you aim at" has become my focus.
I hunt. You don't get to put 5 shots into a stationary target.
Every shot has to fulfill the requirement of Rule #1.
Them critters have a tendency to shift position after that first bang.

So now, if you want to shoot groups, go ahead.
While y'er at it, see if you meet the requirements of Rule #1.
Those green or orange stickers don't fall off the backer.
See that pic above? 5 shots into a 3/4 inch dot at 100 yards. Dot's are still there.
If y'er groups aren't impacting those dots with every shot, y'er not producing consistent sub-moa.
Not relative to y'er point of aim. Try it....watch those groups wander off and away from the dot.

So I figure with folks telling me sub-moa all day long with 5 shot groups, those dots ought to be gravy, right?

 

[RTH1800]

I hunt as well. My groups do not drift. Only conditions move them.
I cannot shoot at a 1/4” dot more than a few shots. The dot is changed or gone.
I think you need an equipment check. Not being sarcastic. Something is wrong with your set up.
See my group above. 1/2” dot, 100 yards. This was just to check POI prior to a squirrel hunt. Point of impact is not an issue with a good rifle.

 

[RTH1800]

Posted this before. This is a pre hunt POI check.
Not selected groups or even groups at all. Just sat down and shot at the ranges as indicated on the target. Sitting, tight sling. Rifle is pictured.

 

[justin amateur]

RT, try it.
It'll be something different for ya'.
3/4 inch dots and a box of y'er favorite ammo at 100 yards.
Y'er skill level is likely far beyond mine, just an interested amateur on this side of the keyboard.
See if you can top the results posted above. I can't. Not yet.

Between the Grid and these 3/4 inch dots, I am improving, slowly.
That's the objective, right?

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

The Lot was manufactured in 2022. I don't have wind flags but there is a lot of vegetation next to the range that I watch. The day was chosen specifically for lack of wind because the only thing I know about shooting in the wind at this point is to not do it. I had one failure to fire (on the first primer strike, it went on the second) but I don't remember if it was this lot number or not. I was concerned for a few minutes that I was getting light primer strikes but I didn't have other issues as I continued to shoot. I can't definitively say it wasn't the wind but I don't think it was.

I would suggest getting flags. it will really help

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Two questions, Lee.

Was the aimpoint elsewhere on the target -- somewhere where it wouldn't be eradicated by the growing group of 50?

Why must the 3 shots outside the group be condition-related rather than surprises? Having one or more surprises in a box of CX isn't unusual. Having none is.

I had a left to right wind coming from around 10-11 o'clock my POA was just about 10-11 I got caught with a let up and that is why 1 shot was exactly where my POA was. second time the wind switched to a 9'o clock and that is why the 2nd shot went right across from the 1st out shot. the 3rd was wind speed change I didn't see and the reason the 3rd shot is about 4'o clock.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

@Hi-NV Shooter ....morning Lee.

I hear ya', sending 50 shots at a single aimpoint requires a touch of OCD.
If you'd like to send 50 at 100 in a less boring manner, try this...

Pick up a roll of 3/4 inch peel and stick dots at y'er local office/school supply store.
Hi-V green or orange works well.
Stick ten of them on a cardboard backer and hang them out at 100 yards.
5 shot groups and attempt to meet the requirements of Rule #1 - Hit what you aim at.
What's entertaining is, that with a 22lr and best edge scoring,
5 shots that touch that 3/4 inch dot, anywhere, result in a sub moa group.
dot diameter plus half bullet diameter plus half bullet diameter. 0.75" + 0.11" + 0.11" = 0.97 inch center to center.
Even if all 5 shots only nick the outer edge of the dot, still a 0.97" 5 shot group.

How many of you could equal these results at 100 yards?

Custom CZ 452 at 100 yards off a bench

I can't, not with the the less expensive ammo I'm currently trying.

Those dots are the kill zone on the skull of a southern grey squirrel.
Imagine attempting that offhand at 100 yards.

I think I already know what the rifle can do based on this target I shot the same day I shot the 50 at 100
the 800yd. target has a 3/4" dot and is the biggest of the 4 the smallest dot being around 3/8"
the other target with the groundhog silhouette was shot same rifle same lot of CX in 2019.
But this is the game I like and play 1 shot per bull no walking in the POI yes, it is only at 50-yds. with a completely different lot of CX think it is easy?

Lee

 

[justin amateur]

Nope, I don't Lee.
The Grid is a one shot - one dot target and it kicks my butt.
The reason being is it's not groups and you have to hit what you aim at.
The 3/4 inch dots are not about groups, you end up with groups,
but the true objective is to hit what you aim at.
No excuses, so far both methods indicate I need much better ammo
and much more work with judging hold off and wind.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Nope, I don't Lee.
The Grid is a one shot - one dot target and it kicks my butt.
The reason being is it's not groups and you have to hit what you aim at.
The 3/4 inch dots are not about groups, you end up with groups,
but the true objective is to hit what you aim at.
No excuses, so far both methods indicate I need much better ammo
and much more work with judging hold off and wind.

I forgot about the grid. yes, ammo is one of the key parts of the equation. here is another is the rifle really in tune?

Lee

 

[straightshooter1]

Nope, I don't Lee.
The Grid is a one shot - one dot target and it kicks my butt.
The reason being is it's not groups and you have to hit what you aim at.
The 3/4 inch dots are not about groups, you end up with groups,
but the true objective is to hit what you aim at.
No excuses, so far both methods indicate I need much better ammo
and much more work with judging hold off and wind.

Exactly . . . "hit what you aim at." That's why I enjoy and get a kick out of shooting like this (trying to get head shots @ 50 yds.) :

 

[justin amateur]

But straight, look at all that wasted ink!
You could accomplish the same thing with a Grid,
then save on target purchases or printer supplies.


Lee, my rifles are as mechanically correct as I can make them.
Factory barrels replaced with Lilja or Shilen, EPS chambers.
3 lb pull OEM triggers replaced with adjustable sear and pull triggers.
Receiver pillared and bedded, barrel bedded or
installed into a barrel block platform that minimizes barrel harmonics.
Bolt and firing pin polished, tip reshaped to focus the strike,
springs replaced to provide a consistent impact on the rims,
head space tenon shimmed to avoid slop when chambering.

My real problems are ammunition quality, wind and that I'm a technician.
I can improve my results to the limits of the equipment,
but appear to lack the talent to push beyond those limits.