ACC vs Foundation

[Gedwards55]

I need help deciding between a mdt acc chassis vs a foundation centurion. Every time I think I have it figured out I end up changing my mind.
I should add I would prefer a manners Tcs but I am going to use one of these for the meantime.
I have an impact action with a 6 cm m40 taper barrel.

 

[drglock]

For the past 3 years I’ve run PDC chassis’s on my NRL22 rig and my hunting gun. This spring I had a 6 GT built on an Impact and went with a Centurion on it. Absolutely love it, I’ve only shot one match with it so far but for me it was a seamless transition due to the straight grip on both the PDC and the Centurion. PDC is fairly similar to the ACC.

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

Foundation.
All.
Day.
Long.


I’ve owned two of the ACCs. One on a Vudoo and one on my Surgeon.

I switched the stock out for the Vudoo to an MG2. Fucking quality!

It wasn’t soon after I found an Exodus for the Surgeon in the PX.

I will state this. Both stocks didn’t balance well. I’ve had to add full brass weight sets in both the Foundation stocks to balance better.

I run a can on the Surgeon and with it, and a Marksman profile barrel at 24” it balances. But that’s a lot of weight.

The Vudoo has a 20” MTU barrel and the ass end is heavy. I also run a can on it, but a 22 can doesn’t weigh shit so it doesn’t help much.

The ACCs were nice as I could add/move weights around to help with the balance, but they also seem flimsy on the muzzle end. When you load the bipod, it doesn’t take much to flex the forend.

 

[OREGUN]

If what you think you want is a manners TCS, but for some reason you are picking between a foundation and an ACC (?),

GET THE FOUNDATION.

It’s better than the manners anyway, IMHO (Purely subjective, there’s nothing wrong with the TCS) and way more like a manners than like an ACC.

 

[Gedwards55]

@OREGUN the wait time for a Tcs is around 8 months. I like the ACC’s adjustability but I like the centurions dead recoil and looks.

 

[OREGUN]

@OREGUN the wait time for a Tcs is around 8 months. I like the ACC’s adjustability but I like the centurions dead recoil and looks.

I get that. The manners has some adjustability that will be a little more like the ACC but I suspect that if butt plate height and cant aren‘t deal-makers/breakers for you, you might well find happiness in the foundation without having to bother with the manners.

There‘s no wrong answer from a “which will shoot better” point of view. The right answer might hinge on exactly what you want to do with it and what you want in some specific feature. I will add that as I’ve gotten better as a shooter, I find myself needing less modularity (adjustable angles and heights and lengths, thumb shelves, levers, hooks, and other assorted “features”) to make the same shots. Maybe I’ll come around again to needing some of those features back in order to shrink my “any position, any rifle, anywhere, anytime” group but for now, whether I have a thumb shelf or a modular grip panel or an adjustable butt plate is irrelevant to my positional shooting as witnessed over nearly 100 Kraft targets.

 

[acudaowner]

Not positive but I don't see how you could go wrong with either or any of the modern chassis they are all really nice and very expensive best of luck with which ever you go with hope you enjoy it .

 

[TEUFEL820]

Most of my PRS friends shoot Foundations and for a good reason. They work and look good doing it. They reason that's kept me from getting one is they are action fitment specific. I have several barreled actions that I like to switch around. On the other hand my MPA BA chassis has served me quite well.

 

[b6graham]

PRS-TCS, ELITE TAC SWAMP MOLDED

This stock is complete and ready to ship.

mannersstocks.com

wait for a TCS from Altus to come in stock

or check out the Henderson HRP. best of both worlds

 

[LV Precision]

If grip-to-trigger distance is important to you, get the ACC. Even the Centurions have too much of a gap for my taste.

 

[spife7980]

If grip-to-trigger distance is important to you, get the ACC. Even the Centurions have too much of a gap for my taste.

This.
The foundation people are super awesome but they have alien length fingers seemingly

 

[Andrew863]

I was in the exact same boat a few months back. For me it came down to how flat the acc set on a bag. I do like the adjustments but I could live without all of them. For me the acc just feels right and feels better for me on the bag. Either way u can't go wrong.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

This.
The foundation people are super awesome but they have alien length fingers seemingly

Tell me you never shot a foundation without telling me you never shot a foundation.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I have owned them all, ACC, TCS and now 2 Foundations.

Foundation Hands down. Chassis are great for getting dirt and mud and other shit stuck in them to clean out. Lots of fasteners to come lose and fuck up your shot or worse.

The TCS is the best stock that manners makes, but its much harder to balance correctly than a Foundation, due to how heavy the foundations are especially in the rear.

TCS is a year long wait. ACC can be had now but they are coming out with a new model to fix their issues (And they have some). The last Foundation I ordered was on my doorstep in 3 days from Imapct.

The Foundation will be cheaper, shoots softer, looks better and is much easier to clean. OTM bottom metal is also superior to anything from manners/badger.

 

[MakeSawdust]

The foundation will need a really long and heavy barrel or a forend weight kit to balance correctly. The adjustments are limited compared to the ACC. That said, I love my stock.

My wife has an ACC and weight up front is a necessity. It also feels like a tuning fork when you pull the trigger. It is very adjustable and I prefer the grip to trigger spacing to the foundation. I just learned to build my grip off of the trigger rather than vice versa.

They both have pros and cons.

 

[Pete B]

Most of my PRS friends shoot Foundations and for a good reason. They work and look good doing it. They reason that's kept me from getting one is they are action fitment specific. I have several barreled actions that I like to switch around. On the other hand my MPA BA chassis has served me quite well.

Big fella, you can request for a more generalised inlet that will accept several actions types.... I was in the same boat, and the answer was "no drama's". Perhaps this will help.
Cheers
Pete

 

[OREGUN]

Not to hijack the thread but I’m super interested in this idea that a foundation needs weight out front to balance. My centurion balances a little too far forward with just a heavy contour barrel and the scope onboard. If anything I want some weight in the back.

 

[CK1.0]

Get what you want, you won't be happy otherwise. I bet you can track down a TCS sooner than waiting 8 months either via the PX on here, Atlas, or somewhere else (Sportsman's Finest in TX had quite a few in-stock not long ago).

IMO, the TCS lands smack dab in the middle between a Foundation and an ACC, it's more tunable than a Foundation like an ACC, but feels nicer and less "tuning-fork" than one of those (JMHO).

That said, after having a couple of different TCS' now, and having my current one dialed-in, IME, depending on what scope you run and what it weighs, having adjustable rear-weight usually isn't a huge deal. Something like a T4 or T2, with a flat enough forend to slap a weight-adjustable ARCA rail on, would be fine if you run a Razor (both the Gen 2's and 3's are ~10oz heavier than everybody else, fat pigs).

On the TCS I sometimes play with the butt pad height up or down (doesn't change much, I still suck either way), but weight and balance are really what's important. Having that rail on the bottom of the stock is the thing. I like my rifle to balance a legit ~4" in front of the magwell (right in the middle of an AG Shmedium dropped on just about anything), a bit nose-heavy on-purpose. JMHO, but I don't use any of the rear weights on the TCS with a Proof Competition contour and a Razor, the 1 weight in the back would be good with pretty much every other scope, and you'd only really need 2 if you went with something semi-stupid like a 29" 1.xx" straight-taper.

I like the ACC and the Foundations (especially the Centurion) and probably will end up with one of each sooner or later, but in a weird way the Manners is actually the cheapest. An ACC fully tricked-out gets pricey fast, and IMO you need a good helping of that stuff like the internal weights and other shit. With a Foundation, a Proof Comp contour that I'm used to (which most would call fairly stout) is actually about as slim as I'd go on one of those, as adding weight isn't as easy, so that'd likely mean going with pricer custom thick contoured barrels and the waiting that can go with that...

The TCS with all the weights it'll take is actually hundreds cheaper than both of those when kitted-out, and I'm cheap.

~21.5lbs:

 

[Bungi]

I have never used an ACC, but I have owned MDT, KRG and XLR and I have shot others.

I currently have a Foundation Centurion and it simply feels/sounds better than a metal chassis. I do like my KRG Whiskey and I still have that one, since (for some reason) it does not have the same vibration/gong feeling like the others did.

Definitely get the Centurion, and I would not be surprised if you no longer have a desire for the TCS

Regarding balance, I have the standard weight Centurion with an Impact, an Arca rail, and a 24" M24 barrel with a gen3 little bastard--- It balances perfectly without any weights.

 

[CK1.0]

Regarding balance, I have the standard weight Centurion with an Impact, an Arca rail, and a 24" M24 barrel with a gen3 little bastard--- It balances perfectly without any weights.

What's the total weight of your rig? ...and when you say "it balances perfectly without any weights" what do you mean exactly (i.e. how many inches in front of the magwell)..?

 

[Bungi]

"Perfectly" may have been too strong of a word.

However, if I put my hand directly in front of the mag well, it is balanced. Or if I set it on a board directly in front of the mag well. With my hand or the board essentially touching the mag well.

It is what I prefer for a balance point.

 

[kthomas]

Depends.

Do you want to look like a civilized person, or an Okie?

 

[st1650]

Lulz. I got my wife a Foundation centurion and she has tiny tiny hands and she uses it to drill tiny holes. It does balance an MTU 26in contour with a heathen 4 port brake. I don’t run an ARCA since I prefer the wider foreend to ride the bag

When I borrow it, I can shoot 1/4 - 3/8 moa groups with factory Sako TRG 136 ammo. Even though I have crazy insane long fingers to the point that even a mk23 feels tiny and I have no problem with the foundation length of pull from the grip to the trigger shoe. They’re unbelievably easy to shoot and don’t have the weird recoil impulse of the ACC. The only chassis I really enjoy is the ARC Xylo.

 

[cgobeli]

I want to upgrade my 6mm Creedmoor from a Grayboe Ridgeback, to either a chassis or Centurion, in the next few months. Trying to decide which way I want to go has been difficult, all while lusting after a J.Allen.

 

[kthomas]

I want to upgrade my 6mm Creedmoor from a Grayboe Ridgeback, to either a chassis or Centurion, in the next few months. Trying to decide which way I want to go has been difficult, all while lusting after a J.Allen.

JAE's are amazing, I have two of them.

 

[cgobeli]

JAE's are amazing, I have two of them.

I do not feel like there is any specific reason to go with one, other than straight sexual desire.

 

[CK1.0]

"Perfectly" may have been too strong of a word.

However, if I put my hand directly in front of the mag well, it is balanced. Or if I set it on a board directly in front of the mag well. With my hand or the board essentially touching the mag well.

It is what I prefer for a balance point.

I'm actually more curious of the overall weight with whatever scope you're running?

I'm lazy and have become accustomed to a 20+lb 6mm that let's me eat a sandwich while I watch the impacts and trace through the glass lol. My rig is ~21.5lbs now (after running it at ~23lbs for a while) and while I think I'm going to go lighter... I'll likely be keeping it in the 19-20lb range.

That's why I'm curious what a Centurion rig weighs without any added weights?

If you get a minute to weigh it... thanks.

 

[High Desert duck]

I'm actually more curious of the overall weight with whatever scope you're running?

I'm lazy and have become accustomed to a 20+lb 6mm that let's me eat a sandwich while I watch the impacts and trace through the glass lol. My rig is ~21.5lbs now (after running it at ~23lbs for a while) and while I think I'm going to go lighter... I'll likely be keeping it in the 19-20lb range.

That's why I'm curious what a Centurion rig weighs without any added weights?

If you get a minute to weigh it... thanks.

Centurion, impact action, trigger tech, Hawkins DBM, 28” kreiger heavy varmint, ace muzzle break,arca rail, atlas PSR bipod, gen3 razor, seekins high rings. 22 pounds.

 

[CK1.0]

Centurion, impact action, trigger tech, Hawkins DBM, 28” kreiger heavy varmint, ace muzzle break,arca rail, atlas PSR bipod, gen3 razor, seekins high rings. 22 pounds.

Awesome, thanks!

If you don't mind: where's your balance point where it'll sit undisturbed by itself on a bag on something like a cattle gate with that setup?

 

[kthomas]

I do not feel like there is any specific reason to go with one, other than straight sexual desire.

They certainly are sexy.

They are an extremely well made chassis. The ergonomics are excellent, and you will commonly hear people say they are the most comfortable chassis to shoot. They also aren't a big tuning fork, like all metal chassis'.

JAE also has well thought out accessories for their chassis'. Look at the ARCA rail for example, how they incorporated a triangular section at the front unsupported section of the rail, to avoid the trampoline effect other ARCA rails have.

Most chassis' and stocks don't float my boat. I don't have either the ACC or the Foundation. I'm intrigued by the Foundation, though the ARCA rail looks like a complete afterthought and out of place on it. A lot of the Foundation micarta colors look like a cheap faux wood, though the darker distressed ones look good. They are much more similar to a stock than a chassis, and lack modularity. I may pick up a Foundation one day, but there's certain aspects of it that I don't like.

With most chassis', I despise the pistol grips. Iove the integrated grip of the JAE, repurposed AR-15 pistol grips just don't really do it for me. I also get the gripe about how all metal chassis' act as tuning forks - some worse than others. Chassis win for modularity, but there's few that I would actually spend money on.

I don't think there's a perfect stock or chassis' out there. I have a lot of critiques about pretty much all of them. Though I find the JAE is the best out of all of them, for me. It incorporates the aspects of stock's and chassis' that I like, with very little that I don't like. The biggest negative is the price - it's a very expensive chassis to make. I have other small critiques, I wish that the cheek rest adjustment was rapid for example. But overall, I haven't seen a better chassis or stock than the JAE all these years later - that shows how innovative this chassis is.

 

[OREGUN]

On sex appeal, the JAE has to be at the bottom of the list. All that overmold and the weird angles and general nerf gun looking weirdness of it.

0/10. Would not smash.

Like getting busy with a fat chick: all the enthusiasm and cool tricks in the world can’t cover the fact that you want to throw up when you look at it.

But, that’s just me.

 

[OREGUN]

I'm actually more curious of the overall weight with whatever scope you're running?

I'm lazy and have become accustomed to a 20+lb 6mm that let's me eat a sandwich while I watch the impacts and trace through the glass lol. My rig is ~21.5lbs now (after running it at ~23lbs for a while) and while I think I'm going to go lighter... I'll likely be keeping it in the 19-20lb range.

That's why I'm curious what a Centurion rig weighs without any added weights?

If you get a minute to weigh it... thanks.

Centurion with one standard spacer (as shipped), Impact action, 26” Heavy Varmint 6BRA barrel, TBAC CB MOUNT Ultra 7 suppressor, Foundation rail, Hawkins dbm, Hawkins one piece mount with 4” rail installed, TT525 with flip covers, CKYE pod short single pull mounted just under the stock end, MDT 12 round mag loaded with 10 rds.

23.3 pounds

balances 2.8 inches ahead of the front vertical face of the bottom metal mag well (slightly ahead of the actual magazine) with the suppressor and cover installed and 1.9 inches ahead with the CB Brake only.

 

[CK1.0]

Centurion with one standard spacer (as shipped), Impact action, 26” Heavy Varmint 6BRA barrel, TBAC CB MOUNT Ultra 7 suppressor, Foundation rail, Hawkins dbm, Hawkins one piece mount with 4” rail installed, TT525 with flip covers, CKYE pod short single pull mounted just under the stock end, MDT 12 round mag loaded with 10 rds.

23.3 pounds

balances 2.8 inches ahead of the front vertical face of the bottom metal mag well (slightly ahead of the actual magazine) with the suppressor and cover installed and 1.9 inches ahead with the CB Brake only.

Thanks for the detail, that helps a lot.

To be just a bit more annoying: are those 2.8/1.9" balance numbers with the Ckye-pod attached or not..?

I'm pretty sure a Centurion will work for me, still sounds a little ass-heavy though as compared to how I've been running my TCS lately (and it'd be much worse with a Razor).

IDK what the Foundation ARCA rail weighs, but maybe I could try bolting a heavy KRG rail to the bottom of a Centurion and see what I get?

1lb 13oz and seems easier to deal with than the brass Foundation weights I've seen, not tunable though, it's all or nothing: https://kineticresearchgroup.com/product/arca-rail-xl-heavy/

KRG makes nice stuff, their accessories are good quality even if one doesn't dig their chassis'. I used to have a fairly Gucci 23lb Bravo for a while, a $350ish Bravo + $350ish worth of accessories (spigot and the heavy stuff mostly), added up to a chassis that did most everything my TCS does. It didn't feel like a tuning fork either, the recoil impulse at ~20+lbs with the mix of aluminum/steel/polymer is actually much more Manners/Foundation-like than ACC-like. A Bravo with a big scoop of toppings is the best chassis one can get for under a grand IMO (not too many folks will go $700+ deep on a Bravo, but they're actually a bargain as far as dollar-to-performance ratio when you consider what a TCS/Foundation/kitted ACC costs).

 

[OREGUN]

Thanks for the detail, that helps a lot.

To be just a bit more annoying: are those 2.8/1.9" balance numbers with the Ckye-pod attached or not..?

I'm pretty sure a Centurion will work for me, still sounds a little ass-heavy though as compared to how I've been running my TCS lately (and it'd be much worse with a Razor).

IDK what the Foundation ARCA rail weighs, but maybe I could try bolting a heavy KRG rail to the bottom of a Centurion and see what I get?

1lb 13oz and seems easier to deal with than the brass Foundation weights I've seen, not tunable though, it's all or nothing: https://kineticresearchgroup.com/product/arca-rail-xl-heavy/

KRG makes nice stuff, their accessories are good quality even if one doesn't dig their chassis'. I used to have a fairly Gucci 23lb Bravo for a while, a $350ish Bravo + $350ish worth of accessories (spigot and the heavy stuff mostly), added up to a chassis that did most everything my TCS does. It didn't feel like a tuning fork either, the recoil impulse at ~20+lbs with the mix of aluminum/steel/polymer is actually much more Manners/Foundation-like than ACC-like. A Bravo with a big scoop of toppings is the best chassis one can get for under a grand IMO (not too many folks will go $700+ deep on a Bravo, but they're actually a bargain as far as dollar-to-performance ratio IMO).

That’s with the PRS Ckye pod attached such that the clamp is under the end of the stock not out in the diving board. I was using a bare metal chair-back (round 1/2 inch or so) to balance it on. To my preferences, it’s a tad nose heavy, especially with the suppressor attached but it sounds like I’m in the minority opinion on balance point.

 

[CK1.0]

That’s with the PRS Ckye pod attached such that the clamp is under the end of the stock not out in the diving board. I was using a bare metal chair-back (round 1/2 inch or so) to balance it on. To my preferences, it’s a tad nose heavy, especially with the suppressor attached but it sounds like I’m in the minority opinion on balance point.

Thanks, that's helpful knowing you keep the bipod on the front. That would definitely be too rear-biased for how I've been running lately. I'd need to bolt on weight out front in/under the forend or order a 28+" truck axle.

I don't think you're in the minority in feeling that way about where you have it balancing... or in thinking that having the balance point further forward would feel too nose-heavy. Most guy's rifles I've handled are setup exactly like that, including my own until only a few weeks back...

Credit where credit is due: I was listening to Morgun King's podcast, and he gets semi-deep into a diatribe about being particular about his rifles being more forward-biased balance-wise, and he managed to describe why in a way that made sense to me, so I decided to try it out...

It's been like a revelation for me. I've never been able to shoot off of obstacles/barriers as easily as I've been able to this last few weeks, it's seriously made me ~200% better off of props than I was previously, the rifle seems like it settles itself, easier to watch impacts/trace through the glass under recoil. YMMV, but yeah, try it if you haven't before lol.

 

[Mudflap621]

I prefer the light fill foundations as they are a tad heavy in the rear, but I also prefer a 20lb rifle. I just picked up a MG2 that I’ve been working on all day trying to get the balance where I wanted it. I ended up with 14 brass weights up front. Entire rifle weighs 21.5 lbs. MG2 with light cheek riser that I stole off another stock.

MG2 w/ Hawkins BM and full length Rail
LP Fuzion
26” Comp contour w/ Lil Bastard
ARC M brace
NF ATACR 7-35
Ckye Pod PRS

As of right now it balances right around 4” in front of the BM with bipod. It’ll do for now but I’m really debating pulling out the dremel.

 

[CK1.0]

As of right now it balances right around 4” in front of the BM with bipod. It’ll do for now but I’m really debating pulling out the dremel.

What would you attack with the Dremel? ...like take more weight out of the rear, or hog out space to add weights up front?

(don't do it btw lol!)

 

[Mudflap621]

What would you attack with the Dremel? ...like take more weight out of the rear, or hog out space to add weights up front?

(don't do it btw lol!)

I’d like to take more out of the rear. I was almost kidding about the dremel but I see it in my future.

 

[CK1.0]

I’d like to take more out of the rear. I was almost kidding about the dremel but I see it in my future.

Don't do it! Not cheap, but the heavy KRG rail is nearly 2lbs and they even make a spacer for another 1lb 4oz if you need it, you'd just need to chase down screws.

Those stocks are beautiful, hate to see a Dremel enter the picture lol.

 

[Mudflap621]

Don't do it! Not cheap, but the heavy KRG rail is nearly 2lbs and they even make a spacer for another 1lb 4oz if you need it, you'd just need to chase down screws.

Those stocks are beautiful, hate to see a Dremel enter the picture lol.

They are beautiful that's for sure but its also a tool. Im already heavier than I'd like to be at this point. Its either a Dremel or find someone with a light fill MG2 for a Fuzion lol.

 

[CK1.0]

They are beautiful that's for sure but its also a tool. Im already heavier than I'd like to be at this point. Its either a Dremel or find someone with a light fill MG2 for a Fuzion lol.

I totally get it.

I took 1.5lbs off my rifle, which one might think would make it have more felt recoil, but since that also pushed the balance point forward (where physics can have more effect)... it shoots flatter now, even though it's lighter.

When/if I try a lighter scope than a Razor, I'll probably go lighter, keeping the weight bias the same, ~4" in front of the magwell.

 

[st1650]

Mine with my Cronus or Leica PRS 5-25 did balance a touch better than with the Gen 2 Vortex.

 

[OREGUN]

Wow. It’s a rare thing that a thread hijack goes this deep. Sorry @Gedwards55. Let us know what you choose.

I’m interested to try a much more front heavy setup. Maybe I need some foundation weights after all.

 

[CK1.0]

True. Sorry for the thread hijack lol.

 

[Mormegil87]

Foundation Centurion > Everything that isn't a Foundation Centurion

I like simple and I like reliable. The Foundation with an Impact 737 and Hawkins metal is both. They just work, every single time.

I've tried multiple ACCs, MPA BAs/Matrix/Matrix Pros, TCSs, AICS etc and I keep going back to the Foundations. More adjustability isn't always a good thing.

@DeathBeforeDismount hit the nail on the head. The more bolts, screws and attachments on your rifle you have. The more shit you have on your rifle that can screw you on a stage.

Recoil impulse on the Centurion is second to none. The wide fore end eliminates whatever imagined need for a gamer plate people have.

Some people ask me about not having a barricade stop in front of my mags. I had more issues with mag fitment in chassis than I have in my Foundation. I run AICS mags with MPA and MDT BR kits with ZERO feeding issues.

Did I mention they aren't gigantic tuning forks?

Bottom line. Foundations just work.

 

[Gedwards55]

Lol I actually ended up somehow getting a Tcs. If I don’t like it you’ll see it on the sale page.

 

[OREGUN]

Funny thing about the multiple fasteners on a chassis complaint. I was on a first name basis with the customer service guys at MPA for awhile when I started shooting a matrix because after every single match I’d come home and find missing parts: the set screws out of the stock adjustment, the ball bearing/screw/springs out of the stock adjusters, the screw out of the mag adjuster, screws out of the weights, etc…basically if it was threaded I probably lost one….to the point that I bought bulk packs of the common sizes. Probably should have resorted to some thread locker on everything. Amazingly I had eventually replaced or had reason to torque them all and I stopped losing stuff. More amazingly, nothing critical ever failed mid match.

 

[Islas82]

If I had to choose between those 2 I would go with the foundation, no doubt. If you absolutely want a chassis set up in my opinion the XLR Envy is the best choice.

 

[DairyDictator]

I love my ACC's. Every time I get behind them, they feel like home. They are SUPER easy to balance at pretty much any weight you want. The problem I have with most stocks is that I cannot adjust everything I want to. Hand position and angle, buttpad height, etc. The ACC lets me do just that.

I really do wish I could be comfortable behind a foundation. I haven't found a stock from them that has a comfortable grip and buttpad for me. As others have said, foundations just deaden everything and chassis systems are tuning forks. The ACC does get flimsy near the muzzle. It's not really a fair comparison to anything else though in my opinion. It has the longest forend of pretty much any other option unless you have a spigot mount. I keep my bipod back an inch or two so that fixes any issues I've run into. It's still nice to have the length for plate bags and tripods. Hopefully the gen 2 fixes that problem.

 

[High Desert duck]

Awesome, thanks!

If you don't mind: where's your balance point where it'll sit undisturbed by itself on a bag on something like a cattle gate with that setup?

Here it is sitting by itself. I’d say balance point is about 1-2 inches in front of the magwell. It’s a little far back on the bag here. It will sit undisturbed with 10-20 degrees muzzle down so it is slightly butt heavy.