Range Report Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

Blanman

Blanman

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
May 29, 2008
332
7
Utah
#1
Shot this just the other day while testing loads for an upcoming match. Rifle is a factory stock Remington 700 SPS-V in a Bell and Carlson Tactical stock so I don't expect amazing accuracy but I was just curious what others are getting with 10-shot groups with their Remingtons? Is this ok, or should I keep tweaking for more accuracy? The group measures about 3.5" at 300 yards.

175 SMK
Lapua brass, regular Fed 210 primer
42.2 Varget
2.82" COAL

0301091246.jpg
 
#3
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

what kind of scope are you using?

have you messed with seating depth at all?

the group is nice and round but i think you can pull it in a bit more.

have you tried the 155 scenar?
 
#4
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pgs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what kind of scope are you using?

have you messed with seating depth at all?

the group is nice and round but i think you can pull it in a bit more.

have you tried the 155 scenar? </div></div>

Vortex Viper 6.5-20x44

I am keeping the seating depths at magazine length, I do not want to load long

Yes, I have gone through about 700 Scenars and they shoot around 1-1.5 MOA at magazine length while when I seat them at 3.0" COAL (.030 off the lands) they shoot around .75 MOA 10 shot groups at 200 yds
 
#5
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

you may want to try a shorter base to ogive... ive seen on occasion where more jump will tighten things up. and also insure never "sticking one" in the throat.
good luck!!
 
#7
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

not sure yet, this was the first time I had shot the 175's down my rifle. I'm assuming they will do better than MOA at 100 yards, we will see later this week when I zero it for the match coming up.

I don't have enough bullets to test into higher velocities, but the range we are shooting to is only 500 meters so there is only about a 1.5 inch difference in wind between 2550 and 2650 fps
 
#8
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

Considering chopping down barrel from 26" to 22". Thoughts? I am hoping this will improve accuracy a little bit, and make it a little lighter and handier, which is always good
 
#9
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

If this is a stock SPS, then I would first look at: proper bedding job (or a better stock), and a trigger job down to 2.5lbs before doing much more load development. I had a 700 VSF that shot about this good with factory ammo, which after just doing the above, shrunk the groups down to 3/4" @ 100yd. From there I was able to tune the load to consistantly 1/2 MOA with hand loads.
 
#10
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

Not 300yds but 200yd thou 300 is much same, purpose built match rifle

Old target from first 15 rounds down tube, all i could find for now

 
#11
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoomerTG1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shot this just the other day while testing loads for an upcoming match. Rifle is a factory stock Remington 700 SPS-V in a Bell and Carlson Tactical stock so I don't expect amazing accuracy but I was just curious what others are getting with 10-shot groups with their Remingtons? Is this ok, or should I keep tweaking for more accuracy? The group measures about 3.5" at 300 yards.

175 SMK
Lapua brass, regular Fed 210 primer
42.2 Varget
2.82" COAL

0301091246.jpg
</div></div>

First, you should demand amazing accuracy. In fact, if you start off with the mind-set that any rifle will always shoot in the direction it's pointed, you'll expect, with proper sight alignment and trigger control supported from a steady position, that all of your shots will be right-in-there.

Instead of asking, could my group be any better, ask, what things could have precluded the group from being better, then trouble shoot to establish recognition for what things need improvement.

Over all, from just looking at your group, I'd say the only thing anyone here knows for sure is that the gun was pointed in the direction of the hits. In other words, you need to do the work.

Calling your shots and looking for a corollary between calls and bullet strikes will give you a place to begin analysis. For example, no corollary may indicate wind was not correctly countered. BTW, what may have appeared to you as a no wind condition could have actually been a 0-3 mph crosswind. That would certainly displace shots.

Other areas to think about: NPA, trigger control, parallax, butt to shoulder, stock weld, bedding, elbows, grip, non-firing hand, and follow through.

Your ammunition seems massaged enough to not be an issue. You made it perfect. Now make everything else perfect, or at least more consistent; I'm talking about your contact with the gun and the ground, from trigger pull until recoil subsides.

Also, consider shooting at a shorter distance to eliminate needing to factor in wind to your analysis. Once, you're stacking up bullets, then you'll be ready to shoot at longer distances with better recognition for when it was the wind that actually got ya rather than just a perception of the wind's effect, when the real culprit may have been not adjusting NPA.

Finally, shoot at a scorable target, for 100 yard shooting, perhaps, something like the MR-31. This scorable target will cause you to start thinking about bullet placement for a good score, and soon, you'll come to understand that what takes place at the target is more about you than it is about the gun.
 
#12
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Calling your shots and looking for a corollary between calls and bullet strikes will give you a place to begin analysis. </div></div>

I've taken notes and velocities for a few of Boomer's groups, and I can attest that his calls are accurate.

We'll review again and go for the blessed CONSISTENCY for every shot on the next round of tests.

On some of his long-loaded rounds at 200 with a swishy 5 mpg tailwind sometimes going to 4:00 at the line, and 3:00 at the target (Or was it the other way around...my mental dyslexia doesn't affect writing, thank heaven!), I watched him shoot a couple of groups of about 3 inches horizontal, with 3/4-inch vertical. All of the few wider shots from each group were right where my observations said the wind should have deflected them. I intentionally chose to let him concentrate on shooting and ignore wind changes.

Until the new barrel or a chamber setback becomes a reality, this search for mag-length load accuracy is...tiresome.
 
#13
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If this is a stock SPS, then I would first look at: proper bedding job (or a better stock), and a trigger job down to 2.5lbs before doing much more load development. I had a 700 VSF that shot about this good with factory ammo, which after just doing the above, shrunk the groups down to 3/4" @ 100yd. From there I was able to tune the load to consistantly 1/2 MOA with hand loads. </div></div>

the stock is fine and the trigger has already been lightened. I think it's just the rediculously long throat, but it also could definitely could be me

Try those same loads of yours (are they five shot or ten shot?) at 200 or 300 yards and watch them open up. I have a Scenar load that shoots around 3/4-1 MOA at 100 yds but further out it shoots more along the lines of 1-1.5 MOA.
 
#14
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

What's the end game here, where are you going with all of this? As I understand it you can call your shots, so, it appears, what you don't know how to do is counter wind. If I were you I'd leave the load alone and move on to dialing for wind.

 
#15
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Karl2U</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not 300yds but 200yd thou 300 is much same, purpose built match rifle

Old target from first 15 rounds down tube, all i could find for now

</div></div>

I've seen him shoot similar groups too...

Keep playing with it & the charge weight. It'll come around.
 
#16
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

First thing I'd try is some Sierra HPBT's. Not familiar with your particular rifle, but most Remingtons have a 1-12 twist and some will not stabilize 175's. Most are throated 1/4 way down the bbl, but until you have the bbl set back you have to live with that. Put a Rifle Basics trigger in and with the 168's bet you see a difference.
My 2 cents krw
 
#19
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious, but what's the diameter of the ten ring an NRA 300yd target?

Greg </div></div>

Same as on the 200-yard SR target.

...

...

...

Okay, it's 7 inches. The difference between SR and SR-3, of course, is that the aiming black for 300 goes out to the 8-ring.

Part of Boomer's point is that for mag-length loads, his verticals are more than twice of what he gets for long-loaded. That round group would have been much smaller and still round (no wind that day).

The long-loaded round groups mentioned earlier were fired in the wind with no attention paid to varying conditions, as it was primarily a mid-range velocity and vertical dispersion test.

My answer to the OP is "Barely" for our kind of work. As in acceptable. And "unfortunately common and almost expected" for those long-throat Remmies and mag-length ammo.

It would be acceptable if it were intended as a hunting rifle or an NM across-the course rifle, but that 4-round mag and lack of strip clip guide makes the NMC proposition awkward.

I tried to get a local guy to set back that barrel for him, but the guy declined because the barrel taper starts so quickly. He wanted about 1.5-inch of cylindrical so he could lop off the whole threaded part and re-start the shank from scratch. I thought it could be more conservatively done by moving the barrel shoulder forward .25 (exactly four threads) and cutting/rechambering from there. Reasonable minds can differ, eh?
 
#21
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

Boomer,

Any chance of increasing your powder charge a grain or two in the interests of further research? 42.2gr of Varget is on the lower end of the scale for that bullet.

How precisely are you loading the cases? Powder dispenser or individually weighed?
 
#22
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

tested 43.2 grains of Varget the other day, it seems like it is pretty close to max in my gun surprisingly, stiffer bolt lift, flattened primers and an ejector swipe on one of them. I figure I will try out 42.5 grains or something like that. The velocities don't have to be screaming, the wind difference is negligible

all charges are weighed
 
#24
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

Yeah, figures that would be too easy...I've gotten up to 44.5 grains of Varget before I started feeling and seeing that with the 175smk. I have also run 43.3 grains of RL-15 under the 175 SMK and had good results. I shoot a 700 SPS .308 so it looked like a possible tweak for you as well.
 
#25
#26
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

Link doesn't work. Well, it works but I get a message that the forum no longer exists or something like that

But I think I will run an OCW test with the 175's
 
#27
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious, but what's the diameter of the ten ring an NRA 300yd target?

Greg </div></div>

Same as on the 200-yard SR target.

...

...

...

Okay, it's 7 inches. The difference between SR and SR-3, of course, is that the aiming black for 300 goes out to the 8-ring.

Part of Boomer's point is that for mag-length loads, his verticals are more than twice of what he gets for long-loaded. That round group would have been much smaller and still round (no wind that day).

The long-loaded round groups mentioned earlier were fired in the wind with no attention paid to varying conditions, as it was primarily a mid-range velocity and vertical dispersion test.

My answer to the OP is "Barely" for our kind of work. As in acceptable. And "unfortunately common and almost expected" for those long-throat Remmies and mag-length ammo.

It would be acceptable if it were intended as a hunting rifle or an NM across-the course rifle, but that 4-round mag and lack of strip clip guide makes the NMC proposition awkward.

I tried to get a local guy to set back that barrel for him, but the guy declined because the barrel taper starts so quickly. He wanted about 1.5-inch of cylindrical so he could lop off the whole threaded part and re-start the shank from scratch. I thought it could be more conservatively done by moving the barrel shoulder forward .25 (exactly four threads) and cutting/rechambering from there. Reasonable minds can differ, eh?</div></div>

Too much gobblegook. I saw and read the OP's original post, and what's clear here is that, if indeed the OP is as good at calling shots as another here testified, since shots did not go on call, producing a somewhat horizontal group, wind was not addressed, or, it was not addressed correctly. The slight vertical dispersion could be the result of a multitude of individual and collective shooter problems having nothing to do with the load if accounts of ES and SD are correct.
 
#28
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

Here is the 10-shot group at 200 that was mentioned earlier. You can clearly see the two outlying rounds. I decided just to screw mag length loads and long load them from now on with the 155's. Can't get everything you want

1227081656.jpg
 
#29
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

My 700 PSS will shoot 1/2-3/4 MOA with Lapua cases 175 SMK CCI 250 43.2 gr Varget loaded to 2.820 which is all the mag well will take.

Are you weighing each powder charge as opposed to just throwing them? Consistancy pays off at the target. Varget dosen't throw worth crap!

One thing you didn't mention is are you shooting off bags/rest/bipod what????? I can't hold decent groups off a bipod. Never could. I'm better just shooting off my pack.
I have an Uncle Buds Bull Bag filled with walnut shell media that works best for me without going to the full front rest rear bag setup.

Danny
 
#30
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoomerTG1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is the 10-shot group at 200 that was mentioned earlier. You can clearly see the two outlying rounds. I decided just to screw mag length loads and long load them from now on with the 155's. Can't get everything you want

1227081656.jpg
</div></div>

Did the shots out to the left go on call? What I'm getting at here is that until you can consistently call your shots, analysis is more or less just speculation about what's needed to get better results.

Just looking at the group: trigger control, different perspective of aim, NPA, wind, or barrel conditioning could be areas to trouble-shoot, yet, your focus seems to be on ammunition which may be taking you down a cold trail.
 
#31
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

While shooting the group everything felt good, tight and consistant. At least to me anyway. The two outliers were the ones that Grump said the wind picked up.
It very well could have been me because the 10 round group (about 5 minutes) before that one (loaded to a different OAL) was 1/2 MOA vertical and also had two shots out to the left exactly like this one so it very well could be my trigger control or some other reason. Parallax is always adjusted out. I will continue dry firing to try and see if I can't work out those fliers.

Here is the other one
1227081656a.jpg
 
#32
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

Please note that the original group posted with the ?acceptable? question was loaded mag length and was at 300 and was at least round.

These other two groups were loaded long and had much, much smaller MOA vertical and were fired at 200. Variations in observed conditions as the shots were fired were verified by looking at the calculated wind drift for speed and direction and were fully consistent in both direction and distance. I do not believe Boomer threw them with bad trigger or NPA.

I'd understand Remington's long throats a bit better if they were also selling barrel upgrades. The guns are strong enough that there really is no need for "liability" measures to keep pressures down.

All they are accomplishing is wasting very good barrels and giving their customers lesser performance than they could. Maybe they're getting kickbacks from the custom barrel makers and gunsmiths to who get so much work from making their rifles right???
 
#33
Re: Acceptable 300 Yard Group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoomerTG1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is the 10-shot group at 200 that was mentioned earlier. You can clearly see the two outlying rounds. I decided just to screw mag length loads and long load them from now on with the 155's. Can't get everything you want

1227081656.jpg
</div></div>

or barrel conditioning </div></div>

Could you please explain to me what this is? Is it the factory barrel warming up and throwing shots or what?
 
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